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Marlborough Street Public Transport Priority Bridge

  • 09-09-2011 10:17pm
    #1
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 13,991 Mod ✭✭✭✭ monument


    This might deserve a thread of its own at this stage?

    As mentioned in the Luas BXD thread, the tender for the bridge as been awarded to Graham Projects Limited. Graham have been involved with other high profile bridge projects before.

    From Dublin City Council's page on the project:
    Dublin City Council is planning to build a new bridge over the River Liffey in Dublin City Centre, just downstream of O’Connell Bridge. The bridge will carry buses and the LUAS at this critical location across the Liffey. It will have cycleways and generous footpaths that will open Marlborough Street and Hawkins Street to greater footfall, prospective development and create a new north-south link from Abbey Street to Pearse Street.

    The bridge will have an elegant contemporary design. It will be a slender, single span, smooth concrete structure, with the underside of the bridge being designed to be as high above the water as possible so that river traffic is not impeded.

    Construction on the bridge is due to commence in Autumn 2011. It will take approximately 18 months to build.

    173862.JPG

    And here's the layout -- click for fuller view:

    173859.jpg

    More detailed draws of the above and other elements can also be found in this PDF here.


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 87 ✭✭✭ CdeP


    Why does it have to have a contemporary design?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 292 ✭✭ teol


    I don't support the Luas BXD project but what use does the bridge have for buses?


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 61,057 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    teol wrote: »
    I don't support the Luas BXD project but what use does the bridge have for buses?

    enables buses to use Malborough Street to get to the South Quays.
    CdeP wrote: »
    Why does it have to have a contemporary design?

    Because its far easier (and cheaper) to build than a stone arch... and Dublin's bridges have alway been built to current designs.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 701 Cathaoirleach


    The boardwalk isn't integrated. This should give the junkies more privacy and encourage even more anti-social behaviour.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,194 ✭✭✭ cgcsb


    construction to start in Autumn 2011?? as if.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 887 ✭✭✭ Telchak


    The boardwalk isn't integrated. This should give the junkies more privacy and encourage even more anti-social behaviour.

    Yeah, I really don't understand why every opening onto the boardwalk isn't done like Grattan Bridge, meeting it at a roght angle instead of merging back intot he tiny path. Especially modern bridges like the Millenim bridge and this one :mad:


  • Registered Users Posts: 947 ✭✭✭ xper


    monument wrote: »
    More detailed draws of the above and other elements can also be found in this PDF here.
    I'm no engineer but looking at the cross section diagram on page 8 of that document, it appears that the bridge deck's underlying structure is arranged with absolutely no provision for facilitating a second Luas track. So any possible future change of mind on running both tracks through Marlborough Street has not been considered. Then again, maybe such changes would not be prohibitively expensive or disruptive - anyone with more specialist knowledge care to comment?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭ Sponge Bob


    That is true, Marlborough St is a tad narrow ( to my mind) for two parallel Luas tracks and the Marlborough St BXD line is supposed to be southbound only.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭ dubhthach


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    That is true, Marlborough St is a tad narrow ( to my mind) for two parallel Luas tracks and the Marlborough St BXD line is supposed to be southbound only.


    You could probably just about squeese a dual track Luas in, but result would be street would have to be closed for all other traffic I would imagine.

    Google streetview:
    http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Marlborough+Street,+Dublin,+Ireland&hl=en&ll=53.348105,-6.257379&spn=0.008288,0.02238&sll=53.344104,-6.267494&sspn=0.265226,0.716171&vpsrc=0&t=m&z=16&layer=c&cbll=53.348026,-6.25736&panoid=VTncAXn3y5SYSdld8zYh9A&cbp=12,342.75,,0,2.33


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭ Sponge Bob


    Then the guards from Store St. on a routine skanger chasing exercise would take the entire Dublin transport integration strategy out of commission on a regular basis :p

    Just an observation mind.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,106 antoobrien


    dubhthach wrote: »
    You could probably just about squeese a dual track Luas in, but result would be street would have to be closed for all other traffic I would imagine.

    Not necessarily, there are stretches of the luas where road traffic and the trams share access based on lights - e.g. Steevens Lane near Hueston.

    What would decide it though would be the impact of stopping traffic to let trams though - e.g. would it be safe to stop traffic at abbey st, what would the knock on effects be etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,464 ✭✭✭ munchkin_utd


    dubhthach wrote: »
    theres only 1 track planned down that road.
    And if you look at the bridge, theres only 1 tram track there also, right in the middle of the bridge.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭ dubhthach


    theres only 1 track planned down that road.
    And if you look at the bridge, theres only 1 tram track there also, right in the middle of the bridge.

    I know that I was just answering Sponge's post ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,330 ✭✭✭ AngryLips


    I think there's such a thing as too much future-proofing


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 13,991 Mod ✭✭✭✭ monument


    The northbound and southbound BXD tracks could easily fit on Marlborough Street -- you'd have to take out parking, coach parking stop Dublin Bus using it as a small depot and access would have to be limited to limit tram disruption -- but it's more than doable and there would be less overall disruption than the current plan. In fact Marlborough Street would benefit from been dug up, O'Connell Street doesn't need that kind of disruption again so soon.

    It's also possible the bridge could take the two tracks.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,119 p


    AngryLips wrote: »
    I think there's such a thing as too much future-proofing
    Have we seen much of that in Ireland?

    In large-scale infrastructure projects, it's critical not to paint yourself into a corner, we already did that with the red & green luas lines as they are at present. Difficult choices made a few years ago would've saved a lot of hassle now.

    It's crazy the south-side bias that the luas was given. Not everyone considers Stephen's Green to be the centre of the city.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 31,301 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Gumbo


    xper wrote: »
    I'm no engineer but looking at the cross section diagram on page 8 of that document, it appears that the bridge deck's underlying structure is arranged with absolutely no provision for facilitating a second Luas track. So any possible future change of mind on running both tracks through Marlborough Street has not been considered. Then again, maybe such changes would not be prohibitively expensive or disruptive - anyone with more specialist knowledge care to comment?

    could they control entry onto the bridge at either side with traffic lights, and a cross over junction to only allow one luas at any given time in one direction only. just a thought?


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 61,057 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    kceire wrote: »
    could they control entry onto the bridge at either side with traffic lights, and a cross over junction to only allow one luas at any given time in one direction only. just a thought?

    They could, and its done elsewhere, but its extreme hassle.

    There's a few of these in Amsterdam for narrow bridges or streets, This GSV shows one for a narrow street, but seeing as Amsterdam also has manually operated points (driver jumps out and uses a pole), single-sided trams and sometimes used to lock off the validators to make you use a conductor, there's a lot we DON'T want to copy from the GVB.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭✭✭ trluk


    The City Council are pressing ahead with this. It seems daft ...
    Av2.jpg

    Marlborough Street bridge plan looks increasingly absurd amid decimated city centre traffic levels

    Dublin is still reeling from its boom period and the cacophony of high-flown plans it threw up. Now that it’s all over, how do the various projects stand up?

    One boom-era plan that seems set to proceed is Dublin City Council’s building of a “public transport priority” bridge over the Liffey between Marlborough Street and Hawkins Street.

    Conceived as a relief bridge while Metro North was under construction at adjacent O’Connell Bridge, it would later accommodate a southbound line of the city-centre Luas link, plus buses and taxis.

    Metro North is more or less cancelled, and the Luas link, while pencilled in to proceed in 2015, has yet to secure funding of an estimated €170 million.

    The location of the new bridge so close to O’Connell Bridge was always problematic, but it was accepted by city stakeholders in the context of plans at the time, and passed through the planning system with little or no objection.

    But now, with the dramatic decline in city-centre traffic levels over the past three or four years, and changes to other plans, the Marlborough Street – Hawkins Street bridge is becoming an increasingly absurd idea.

    It will effectively provide a broad new multi-lane road bridge a few metres to the east of the widest bridge in the country and one of the widest of its kind in the world.

    The bridge has no real circulation gain, as it simply leaves and enters the same traffic circulation system that already exists in the area, serving only to bypass O’Connell Bridge.

    Nor is the bridge needed by Luas - the wide streets handed down to us by the Georgian planners of the 18th century give ample space along O’Connell Street and Westmoreland Street for a Luas line travelling in each direction, plus vehicle, cycle lane and footpath space.

    When and if the Luas link eventually comes to be constructed, the obvious route to take (and despite the results of ‘route selection’ processes) is that of the original alignment with both directions running along O’Connell Street, O’Connell Bridge and Westmoreland Street, not least for the reduced costs of keeping the two lines together.

    The city centre streets and bridges are the product of the great period of classical urban planning in the 18th century. Bridges on the Liffey were built at a consistent distance from each other, and the river and streets led to views of carefully positioned setpiece buildings.

    The regular spacing of bridges along the Liffey was observed for hundreds of years, until 2003 when James Joyce Bridge was built in-between two older bridges near Queen Street. The disorienting, incoherent effect of bridges built close to one another here is plain for all to see.

    James Joyce Bridge makes no sense in its location, although it was in fact a legacy of Dublin Corporation’s insane 1960s road plans for central Dublin and should arguably have been shelved when the body of those plans were shelved in the 1980s.

    Likewise, combined factors today including the recession, the opening of the Samuel Beckett relief bridge in the docklands and the huge increase in the popularity of cycling arising from the Cycle to Work and bike rental schemes have radically changed traffic conditions in the centre over past the past couple of years, and future plans provide for further reduction of traffic.

    The justification for the Marlborough Street – Hawkins Street bridge is now extremely shaky and we should face up to it. It is a product of the distorted, addled period that was the economic boom in Dublin, and its unprecedented pressures.

    The minor circulation gain in linking Marlborough Street and Hawkins Street will be massively outweighed by its impact on the plan of one of Europe’s great classical cities.

    Proceeding with the bridge now will repeat the town-planning mistake of James Joyce Bridge on a grand scale and will leave another stain on the record of Dublin City Council.

    It is not too late to reconsider. The site has been hoarded off since the New Year but no construction work has begun. A review of the bridge should now be undertaken by the government.

    http://news-beacon-ireland.info/?p=1780


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭ Cool Mo D


    There has not been a dramatic decline in city centre traffic. It's not quite as busy as it once was, but it is still extremely congested.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭ Sponge Bob


    There is a thread about this bridge already

    I don't suppose you will confess to writing that article yourself trluk ....and maybe tell us why?? :(


  • Registered Users Posts: 951 robd


    To be honest the Luas should not run down O'Connell street. It would be better running down Marlborough Street in both directions having a dedicated segregated street to itself. Definitely Luas shouldn't run up/down 2 separate streets.

    It's certainly a waste of money proceeding with the bridge at the moment. Should only be built as part of Luas project.

    Valid points about no real offering as a Bus only bridge.

    Guess thats politics though.

    Anyway, what's the point in arguing this. Construction has already started.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,784 ✭✭✭✭ Winters


    Very good reasons to reconsider this piece of unnecessary expenditure and I agree completely with the Luas going down O'Connell Strasse in both directions.

    The street is wide enough certainly, its just the disruption to traffic during construction phase and then to buses and taxis that DCC were worried about. RPA looked at Marlborough Street as a way of rejuvenating that area but I dont think a one direction tram line would make the difference they think it would.

    I don't believe that Marlborough is wide enough to take both tram lines in addition to the many buses that terminate along Marlborough Street.


  • Registered Users Posts: 951 robd


    Winters wrote: »
    I don't believe that Marlborough is wide enough to take both tram lines in addition to the many buses that terminate along Marlborough Street.

    It's perfectly wide enough and very straight. Fits 2 lanes of parking and 1 traffic lane on upper part of it. Fits bus parking and bus traffic lane on lower part. Check google street view.

    Bus parking will be removed regardless of if single or bi-directional Luas.

    Suspect worry was with turning junction onto Abbey Street Red Line. Doable if they only go for a single lane junction from outer lanes though. Given it's only for maintenance and tram movements this would be fine. They don't actually need a 2 lane junction or bi-directional junction.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,332 ✭✭✭ Mr Simpson


    robd wrote: »
    To be honest the Luas should not run down O'Connell street. It would be better running down Marlborough Street in both directions having a dedicated segregated street to itself. Definitely Luas shouldn't run up/down 2 separate streets.

    It's certainly a waste of money proceeding with the bridge at the moment. Should only be built as part of Luas project.

    Valid points about no real offering as a Bus only bridge.

    Guess thats politics though.

    Anyway, what's the point in arguing this. Construction has already started.

    Tbh I am of the opposite opinion, I believe O'Connell Street is perfect for the luas, BUT it should be the only thing on the street, imho all buses should travel in both directions on Marlborough St, with Marlborough & Talbot streets being bus only. Just my 2 cents though.


  • Registered Users Posts: 951 robd


    mmcn90 wrote: »
    Tbh I am of the opposite opinion, I believe O'Connell Street is perfect for the luas, BUT it should be the only thing on the street, imho all buses should travel in both directions on Marlborough St, with Marlborough & Talbot streets being bus only. Just my 2 cents though.

    Would create a bottle neck unless there were no stops. As soon as a bus stopped all buses would be stopped behind them. Marlborough Street would only be wide enough for 2 lanes.

    Also the less interaction Luas has with pedestrians the better. Slows it done. Too many pedestrian crossings on O'Connell Street. All for removing private cars off it though. Would means Arnotts carpark shutting though. No problem personally with that.

    Also council already raising objections to overhead tram lines in front of GPO. Their are solutions (such as 3rd track (with sensors) or batteries) but all are complex and expensive.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,332 ✭✭✭ Mr Simpson


    robd wrote: »
    mmcn90 wrote: »
    Tbh I am of the opposite opinion, I believe O'Connell Street is perfect for the luas, BUT it should be the only thing on the street, imho all buses should travel in both directions on Marlborough St, with Marlborough & Talbot streets being bus only. Just my 2 cents though.

    Would create a bottle neck unless there were no stops. As soon as a bus stopped all buses would be stopped behind them. Marlborough Street would only be wide enough for 2 lanes.

    Also the less interaction Luas has with pedestrians the better. Slows it done. Too many pedestrian crossings on O'Connell Street. All for removing private cars off it though. Would means Arnotts carpark shutting though. No problem personally with that.

    Also council already raising objections to overhead tram lines in front of GPO. Their are solutions (such as 3rd track (with sensors) or batteries) but all are complex and expensive.

    The bottleneck could possibly be solved by having buses stop on Parnell Street & Talbot Street, with them terminating at Hawkins Street (in the great void created by blowing Hawkins House to smithereens (I wish))


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,803 ✭✭✭✭ LXFlyer


    Actually this will improve bus journey times as the not insignificant 14, 15, 27 and 151 routes all take an age to get from Connolly Station to College Street at different times of the day.

    This bridge will allow them avoid the congested area at Memorial Road and the Matt Talbot Bridge by routing via a far less congested Talbot Street and Marlborough Street.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭ Aard


    So, OP you registered just to post this biased article?
    robd wrote: »
    Also council already raising objections to overhead tram lines in front of GPO. Their are solutions (such as 3rd track (with sensors) or batteries) but all are complex and expensive.

    I've never really understood that objection. Here's a street in Nice of similar importance and width with tram wires all along it. They're hardly noticeable. http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=fr&ie=UTF8&ll=43.700621,7.270117&spn=0.005476,0.011362&vpsrc=6&t=k&z=17&layer=c&cbll=43.700444,7.268185&panoid=jvMc7_qrjfWLDqS68B7R4g&cbp=12,158.89,,0,6.61


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭ Sponge Bob


    Aard wrote: »
    So, OP you registered just to post this biased article?
    Yep, they disappeared and never came back to answer any questions. :(


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