Hidden camera show displays the double standard regarding physical violence

um7y1h83ge06nx

onedmc wrote: »

I am shocked that people are shocked.

Its natural to side with the weaker and to be disturbed when the a stronger picks on a weaker.

Nothing to do with double standards it one standard. What would happen it it was two boys one 8 and one 14 we would side with the 8 year old. It the 8 year old was having a go at the 14year old we would presme they deserved it.

Now if it go really violent we would side with the victim no mater what the size or percieved strength.

Going by that train of thought my girlfriend could do whatever the hell she wanted to me. I'm 6ft about 13-14st and she is only about 5ft1 and slim. I have to side with Sonics2k on this one.

28064212

Ayaan Rapping Rugby wrote: »

Going by that train of thought my girlfriend could do whatever the hell she wanted to me. I'm 6ft about 13-14st and she is only about 5ft1 and slim. I have to side with Sonics2k on this one.

Maybe I'm misreading, but to me, that's not what onedmc is saying. It's not a gender double standard, it's a size/physicality double standard. The clip in the OP shows an (apparently) stronger person abusing a weaker person, then a weaker person abusing an (apparently) stronger person, and people reacting differently to those cases.

If you replaced the woman (or man) with a physically equivalent female (or male) in the scenarios would it have elicited the same differing reactions? That's something which the show doesn't address at all

HavingCrack

That particular show is well known for deliberately setting out to get the response from the public that it wants rather than what actually occurs. It's not a level playing field to start with.

Watch the episode where they compare a black man and a white woman robbing a bike. The black guy makes the biggest ever ruckus doing it and makes it blatently obvious that he is robbing a bike while the woman remains very calm and quiet and does nothing to draw attention to herself. Suprise, suprise the public are more biased against the black guy as a result. If you're going to make these sort of shows at least use a common baseline for it to have any value.

LegacyUser

I've seen that video before, it's upsetting but not very surprising tbh.
I've watched a lot of videos from that show, and it seems that not many people will step in to help with couples fighting, regardless of the gender of the aggressor.
In the other half of that video where the man was the aggressor against the woman, only 10% of people intervened.
I don't know what percent of people intervened when the woman was the aggressor, it may have been a similar figure, I think they were more highlighting the differences of the attitude people had towards it, rather than the amount of people who would intervene.

Fair play to those girls at the end, one goes up to talk to the couple even though you can tell she is very nervous, and another woman rings the cops.
I didn't see any male standing up for the man, although of course maybe they just didn't show it, or else the males were afraid to confront a woman for fear of being labelled in the wrong themselves.

They did this situation with a teenage couple to see if the reactions of bystanders would be different, although I believe they only used male aggressor against his girlfriend.They state that 1 in 3 teenagers will be the victim of physical or emotional abuse.
That to me is a very high figure, and something to consider if you have teenage daughters or sons.

In this first scenario the teenage couple look fairly well dressed and average.
The vast majority of people who stepped in to help the girl appear to be women, actually trying to take the girl away, and shouting at her boyfriend. One man stops and gives a warning, and gets up in the face of the boyfriend, and then keeps walking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysl-InPwVyw

In the second scenario, the make the boyfriend look "tougher" looking with a hoody and chains etc.
The women they showed in this video looked too afraid to intervene, and it showed much more men than women getting very riled up with the boyfriend.
It was a woman though who eventually drags the girlfriend away whilst a man shoves the boyfriend away aggressively. They seemed to work together to help the girl.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQb9aZ0-zjs

Double the amount (20%) of people intervened when it was a teenage couple.

In this scenario, they show a woman in conservative clothes with a battered face sit in a restaurant, acting afraid, and she is then joined by a boyfriend who acts very aggressive with her. They used 2 women in separate tests.
The response from both males and females is immediate. One man takes the boyfriend outside to try and talk sense into him, whilst this man's wife/girlfriend goes to comfort the battered girlfriend. Another man shoves the abuser hard when he starts up again.
With the second woman, two girls sitting nearby actually get right up in the face of the abusive man, and physically stop the man from the dragging the girl away. They are very vocal and determined to put a stop to it all.
(When the women are dressed sexily/revealing, not one single man or woman intervenes nomatter how abusive the boyfriend gets, but I think that's a different debate)

I don't know how accurate the information you could derive from these videos is, as they may use selective editing, and I only have 1 female aggressor video to go on. From the limited video footage available though, I think the videos I've posted show that yes males will intervene when a woman is getting abused, but there seems to be a lot more women who actually intervene, and go to greater lengths to protect other women, such as physically removing the girls from the situation, and standing right in between the aggressor and the girlfriend to protect them.

I guess my point is that although most women do not intervene when the aggressor is a female, they do strongly stand up for their own gender very well. I think males need to this more for other males.
I noted that it was not only females who ignored the violent female, but that not one single male defended the guy who was getting slapped about. They had exactly the same attitudes as the females, and seemed to even find it understandable or amusing.

I have witnessed this in everyday life. A man getting a slap in the face or clip around the ear from his girlfriend is usually laughed at and found very funny by some other men. I'm sure they would not find it funny if it was more serious physical abuse, but seeing as they find it harmless and causing no physical damage, they find it more amusing than troublesome.

In a perfect world each gender would stand up and defend a person regardless of what gender the victim or aggressor is, but I think that when it comes to female on male violence, it is so deeply ingrained that it is just harmless or funny, or that it's ok because the man must have done something seriously wrong otherwise a female would never hit, these attitudes are just seen as so normal, that I really think it will only change when more men take a very strong stand against it.

Too many men just brush it off as nothing, and imo this in turn leads to more women thinking it's acceptable, because if even guys find it ok, then it must be ok. Of course there are men and women (myself included), who will defend a male getting abused by a female, but I just think that there needs to be much more men who start defending their own gender. I think it will only be then, that certain females will begin to realise what they are doing is unacceptable, and not ok or funny or harmless.

I know that some men may be afraid of confronting a female aggressor who is attacking her boyfriend, for the very real fear that they will then be seen as a bully for confronting a woman. But this attitude has to change, and it has to start somewhere. Non aggressive confrontations should not do any harm, and if they become more common, these women abusers who think it's ok ,will hopefully gradually decline.

Hazys

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7lfVyyEI70

See this for a double standard.

She slaps him basically believing there would be no recourse, but when there was, the lad got a beating.

LightningBolt

Hazys wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7lfVyyEI70

See this for a double standard.

She slaps him basically believing there would be no recourse, but when there was, the lad got a beating.

What a bitch. Reaction from men is way over the top.

LeeHoffmann

yes males will intervene when a woman is getting abused, but there seems to be a lot more women who actually intervene, and go to greater lengths to protect other women, such as physically removing the girls from the situation, and standing right in between the aggressor and the girlfriend to protect them.

This part of your post reminded me of a recent experience I had. Not the same thing but anyway. A few weeks ago, my OH, two of his male friends and I were on a night out - all p1ssed (hadn't seen each other in ages, long night of drinking). Three men started on my OH in a pub. My OH's 2 male friends then went to his side so there were 2 sets of 3 men facing off against each other. I went over and stood between them with the intention of preventing a physical fight. I literally stood between the lines with my arms out so that, if anyone wanted to fight, they would have to hit/hurt me first. This was the only way I could see to prevent a fight breaking out - and yes, I was banking on them all being decent enough not to hit someone much smaller and weaker than them/not to hit a woman. Anyway, it worked and all lads eventually parted ways with nobody getting injured. My OH's friends gave out to me about it later though and seemed to think I had done something risky and had escalated the issue (I would have thought my actions prevented a fight).

So I'm asking - did I do the right thing? (sorry I'm not trying to hijack the thread!) - should women get involved to stop aggression between people - or should they only get involved to stop female on male aggression? (i.e. is it too 'risky' for women to get involved in male on female or male on male aggression?)

um7y1h83ge06nx

I think some men's skewed view on female on male violence stems from their views of being a man.

*********

Some men think that as men they need to be "strong", emotionless and always be macho. They must never cry publicly, never appear nervous, worried or depressed. Women are "weaker" and so must always be treated as such.

Therefore they must always stand up for women and if a man is being attacked by a woman he must have done something to deserve it and is probably not really a "man".

*********

I know the above is a bit of a generalisation but some men do think like this and it holds back both other men and women in society which is a great pity. Men like this make it a lot difficult to discuss male depression, male suicide, sensitive male specific issues such as sexual performance issues (such as ED etc.).

This overly macho view can also be damaging to women as some men like this don't view the opposite sex as equals but as weaker and inferior to them.

Bit of a rant this but hopefully I'm getting my point across.

LeeHoffmann

agree with everything you said there Super Sonic

Dravokivich

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

So I'm asking - did I do the right thing? (sorry I'm not trying to hijack the thread!) - should women get involved to stop aggression between people - or should they only get involved to stop female on male aggression? (i.e. is it too 'risky' for women to get involved in male on female or male on male aggression?)

hmmm, doubt your actions would of escalated the issue. From my view if I was on your OHs side, I'd consider your placement between the two groups a risk and something to watch out for. It's been a long time since I've been in a fight, but whenever I've done so the last thing I'd want is to have to focus my attention elsewhere.

You would of been better off trying to just get your OHs attention and attempt to bring him away from the other group, which hopefully would of been followed by his friends.

I'd recommend you never get inbetween men that are squaring up, as you can't count on one side actually caring about what might happen to you.

iptba

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

So I'm asking - did I do the right thing? (sorry I'm not trying to hijack the thread!) - should women get involved to stop aggression between people - or should they only get involved to stop female on male aggression? (i.e. is it too 'risky' for women to get involved in male on female or male on male aggression?)

I think morally you did the right thing as it probably reduced the chances of people getting injured. I was relatively big (tall, etc.) in school so on occasion stood between people squaring up. Bystanders (males mainly I think - I went to an all-boys school) can be irresponsible and just interested in seeing a fight. But fights usually end up in hurt, both physical and sometimes mental (being shook up or, in that last video clip, the guy even crying which suggests that man was traumatised).

Men sometimes think they'll enjoy a fight. I think if they want to fight they should do it in a more controlled environment e.g. boxing, some sort of martial art, etc. Fights outside an uncontrolled environment are too risky esp. when some people are less scrupulous than others.

py2006

Ayaan Rapping Rugby wrote: »

I think some men's skewed view on female on male violence stems from their views of being a man.

*********

Some men think that as men they need to be "strong", emotionless and always be macho. They must never cry publicly, never appear nervous, worried or depressed. Women are "weaker" and so must always be treated as such.

Therefore they must always stand up for women and if a man is being attacked by a woman he must have done something to deserve it and is probably not really a "man".

*********

I know the above is a bit of a generalisation but some men do think like this and it holds back both other men and women in society which is a great pity. Men like this make it a lot difficult to discuss male depression, male suicide, sensitive male specific issues such as sexual performance issues (such as ED etc.).

This overly macho view can also be damaging to women as some men like this don't view the opposite sex as equals but as weaker and inferior to them.

Bit of a rant this but hopefully I'm getting my point across.

In fairness, I think some women view men in this light as well. The whole 'bad guy' thing again. If a guy is all needy, nice, full of emotion and sensitivity they would run a mile as he isn't a 'real man'. Nonsense I know.

You are right about how it contributes to mental health issues etc. However, I am not sure if you can completely blame men wanting to be 'macho'. I think its deeper than that, its inbuilt. I am by no means a macho guy or a jack the lad type but I would still find it extremely difficult to openly display emotion to a certain level. But I don't feel women are the inferior sex in any way.

Sonics2k

py2006 wrote: »

In fairness, I think some women view men in this light as well. The whole 'bad guy' thing again. If a guy is all needy, nice, full of emotion and sensitivity they would run a mile as he isn't a 'real man'. Nonsense I know.

Dangerous opinion I know, and I completely agree with you. I would even go so far as to say the majority of Irish Women think that way.

LeeHoffmann

I am by no means a macho guy or a jack the lad type but I would still find it extremely difficult to openly display emotion to a certain level.

Some women have that too. Again though I think this is more because of socialisation (man=strong, woman = weak) than any innate or inbuilt predisposition

Thank you Dravokivich and iptba for your POV's.

I'd recommend you never get inbetween men that are squaring up, as you can't count on one side actually caring about what might happen to you.

What about if a man is aggressive with a woman - should a woman get involved to help then? Obviously there's still the risk that the guy would start on the helper...but I suppose 2 women against 1 man is better than 1 woman alone.

It's a pity so many men seem to have been attacked by both the man and woman when they've attempted to help. That must turn people off getting involved? Hard to know what to do in these situations - you obviously want to help, but you don't want to risk becoming the victim yourself

I would even go so far as to say the majority of Irish Women think that way

Really?! :eek: I can only hope you're wrong there but I do know quite a few women who hold that stupid view. There are also lots of women that are disgusted by the macho attitude. I think most of Irish society sees men as strong and women as weak though. I think the two go completely hand in hand and both need to change

Sonics2k

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

Some women have that too. Again though I think this is more because of socialisation (man=strong, woman = weak) than any innate or inbuilt predisposition

Thank you Dravokivich and iptba for your POV's.
What about if a man is aggressive with a woman - should a woman get involved to help then? Obviously there's still the risk that the guy would start on the helper...but I suppose 2 women against 1 man is better than 1 woman alone.

It's a pity so many men seem to have been attacked by both the man and woman when they've attempted to help. That must turn people off getting involved? Hard to know what to do in these situations - you obviously want to help, but you don't want to risk becoming the victim yourself


Really?! :eek: I can only hope you're wrong there but I do know quite a few women who hold that stupid view. There are also lots of women that are disgusted by the macho attitude. I think most of Irish society sees men as strong and women as weak though. I think the two go completely hand in hand and both need to change

Allow me to explain sorry.

Not the whole macho man me hulk rawr me smash attitude.

Rather a real man isn't to emotional, loving, caring, romantic a lot, open with feelings.

(I should probably put off posting until I've slept some more :P)

Dravokivich

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

What about if a man is aggressive with a woman - should a woman get involved to help then? Obviously there's still the risk that the guy would start on the helper...but I suppose 2 women against 1 man is better than 1 woman alone.

Well that's always going to be a though one as the video's and topic of the thread show. Do you know if the man in question is naturally agressive or just agressive by means of a provoked reaction as a result of the woman intially being agressive to a point where the man could not take it anymore?

If I was to step in, it would be heavily dependant on the level of violence of the circumstances. Such as someone getting a severe beating. Regardless of a man or woman being envolved. I would not step in, if it's a few slaps, that's a a dispute between 2 people, leave it to them to sort out.

Solair

People should step in if someone's beating up their boyfriend or girlfriend.

A guy I know was hospitalised by his former girlfriend. She used to get really violent after a few drinks and she put him through a shop window one night.

She used to slap him around the place and everyone seemed to think it was funny until one day she totally lost it and did that. Nobody intervened and it was just getting worse and worse until it finally culminated in that !

The guy took months to recover.

There is definitely a double standard applied. There are still people taking the piss out of him over it, oddly enough mostly women!

If the same thing had happened to a woman and was inflicted by a guy, she'd be getting sympathy and counselling. All he gets is ridicule from a lot of people.

foxyboxer

Topical article in todays Indo...

http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/independent-woman/love-sex/my-wife-beat-me-up-every-week-and-there-was-nothing-i-could-do-about-it-2871832.html

HavingCrack

Solair wrote: »

People should step in if someone's beating up their boyfriend or girlfriend.

A guy I know was hospitalised by his former girlfriend. She used to get really violent after a few drinks and she put him through a shop window one night.

She used to slap him around the place and everyone seemed to think it was funny until one day she totally lost it and did that. Nobody intervened and it was just getting worse and worse until it finally culminated in that !

The guy took months to recover.

There is definitely a double standard applied. There are still people taking the piss out of him over it, oddly enough mostly women!

If the same thing had happened to a woman and was inflicted by a guy, she'd be getting sympathy and counselling. All he gets is ridicule from a lot of people.

I do know that this is a very black and white view and there's clearly reasons why it doesn't occur but I simply cannot understand why anyone (male or female, straight or gay etc.) would remain in a relationship with someone who was beating the **** out of them. If there's children involved it's clearly an issue but if it's just the two of them... I know it happens pretty often but I really don't understand it.

Wolfe Tone

A lot of those women seem to think its acceptable to hit a man if he cheated, or physically assault him by pulling his hair, twisting his ears etc.

Incredible double standard.

LeeHoffmann

From foxyboxer's link:

There was an 80% increase in the number of men reporting domestic abuse last year, according to Amen, which operates a helpline and counselling service for men. A quarter of those who suffered abuse reported being stabbed, burnt by cigarettes and having their hair pulled out.

an 80% increase?! :eek: That's massive! You have to wonder whether that's because women are becoming more abusive, because men are reporting it more, or both. I am shocked by the figure -I really hadn't realised that this was becoming so prevalent (i.e. the increase).

My ex-wife came home late and the house wasn't tidy," he recalls.
"So she got the two eldest children out of bed. It was about 12 o'clock at night and everyone was asleep. She was making them clean the house but they were tired so I got up to try and help the children.
"She then went into a rage and cut me on the wrist when she lunged at me with a knife. To calm things down I sent the children to bed and began to tidy. Then she came up behind me with what I think was a doorstopper and hit me on the back of the head. She knocked me out cold and then she went to bed."
Since exchanging vows in the early 1990s, Stephen's marriage had been a normal one, but in 2006 his wife began getting increasingly physical with their children.
"When she started hitting the children I'd try to help them and then she would turn on me," he says.

I wonder how often female abuse of men is accompanied by female abuse of children. Confession time here: My ex-stepmother was an abusive person. She terrorised my family - there's no other word for it. She was physically abusive with myself and my younger brother, but I remember she hit my Dad numerous times too. After he left her, we never spoke about it and I do wonder now whether she was as abusive with him as she was with us. She went to the police once and told them that he was abusing her - but admitted she had made a false accusation when she was interviewed a second time. I hope that this issue gets more attention in the media and that people start to accept and confront it more. However, I really hope that this discussion doesn't take the all too familiar form of 'men Vs women'. It's not a competition. We're on the same side.

Not the whole macho man me hulk rawr me smash attitude.
Rather a real man isn't to emotional, loving, caring, romantic a lot, open with feelings.

Yep, I knew what you meant.

Morlar

Is anyone surprised by this ?

Of course there is a double standard, in this and a whole lot of other areas as well. That is always the way it has been and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

In fairness, in this context it's not the end of the world. Physically men are more able to defend themselves from a violent woman than women are able to defend themselves from a violent man. So on balance, society projecting more concern for the physically weaker (generally speaking) is not a completely bad thing.

LeeHoffmann

society projecting more concern for the physically weaker (generally speaking) is not a completely bad thing.

projecting more concern is perhaps understandable, but sweeping the fact that female abuse of men exists is not. Read foxyboxer's link

Sonics2k

Morlar wrote: »

Is anyone surprised by this ?

Of course there is a double standard, in this and a whole lot of other areas as well. That is always the way it has been and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

In fairness, in this context it's not the end of the world. Physically men are more able to defend themselves from a violent woman than women are able to defend themselves from a violent man. So on balance, society projecting more concern for the physically weaker (generally speaking) is not a completely bad thing.

I'm sorry but that's complete crap.

In a previous relationship I was constantly hit by my partner, including throwing things at me. She was about 5ft tall, and I'm 6ft2 and physically well built. She knew and I knew that if I hit her back, she'd be severely hurt, so I basically had to stand there and take it. The threat being if I ever fought back, she'd take my children away from me.

The one time I defended myself by pushing her away from me, she told her friends and family I was abusive towards her, and they believed her entirely.

Physical strength has very very little to do with abusive relationships, it's more about power and control, and remember, it does not always have to be physically abuse to.

Morlar

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

... is perhaps understandable, but sweeping the fact that female abuse of men exists is not. Read foxyboxer's link

I have never said, or thought, that no women ever physically abuse men.

Of course they do.

Whatsmore the underlying current to that is psychological and emotional abuse. If the man really wanted to he could (99 times out of 100) knock her out cold. So the physical abuse aspect is just one element in an abusive relationship (women>men).

That doesn't change the post above yours by a single micron. It is a double standard but it is not the end of the world and on balance is not an entirely bad thing.

foxyboxer

from the link

Another victim of domestic abuse, Michael*, called the gardai after he was stabbed multiple times by his wife after an argument over a credit card bill.

"I had my back to her when I asked her for money to help pay off the bill she had mounted up," he says. "Then I felt something hit me. When I turned around she hit me again in the arm. I really didn't feel anything. She hit me again and again and then several times in the stomach.

"When she turned away to run upstairs I heard something fall from her hand and I knew I was in trouble. When I saw the pools of blood I realised she had stabbed me with a knife."

His wife claimed he had self-harmed and despite having what he feels is evidence of consistent abuse, the gardai, social workers and courts sided with his wife.

That makes me very angry. So basically, she stabbed him and got away with it because of this stupid double standard. He's lucky he wasn't killed.

LeeHoffmann

abusive relationships, it's more about power and control,

This ^^^

LeeHoffmann

not an entirely bad thing.

How is it not a bad thing that we care more about abuse of women than abuse of men?

I have never said, or thought, that no women ever physically abuse men.

I didn't mean that you are sweeping it under the carpet. I meant that society does.

Morlar

In general a woman is more physically vulnerable to a physical assault from a man than a man is phhysically vulnerable to a physical assault from a woman.

'In General' are the important words of that sentence.

There will never be a magically, 100% accurate, 'everyone is totally equal in every way', even handed societal approach to this, there always has been a double standard and an imbalance. It is imbalanced in the direction of concern for the physically weakest. That is a double standard and is technically unfair but in my opinion is understandable.

gargleblaster

Can we drop the physical vulnerability nonsense please? The man referenced above was stabbed, he could have been killed. Furthermore, the physical vulnerability stuff completely ignores the mental/emotional side of it, as well as the effect on any children if they're unlucky enough to be present for it.

We all know why people think stupid things re: why one sex deserves help and support and sympathy and the other doesn't. But it all has to stop, and it's all equally important.