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RWC Pool C: Ireland vs USA Eagles, Sun 11 Sep 7am; Pre/During/Post Match Thread.

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    #332
    Stev_o
    Registered Users Posts: 9,249 ✭✭✭Stev_o


    Ireland by less than 20
    GerM wrote: »
    Try is sometime! ;) 8 guys trying to crush you as you lean forward and hook a ball backwards isn't easy. It's not massively technical but it certainly isn't the cake walk you'd think it is and is a skill in itself. A good clean strike on the ball at scrum time can be very important. Look at the scrum against England in the first half where we conceded a penalty. The ball never made it to the back of the scrum and Heaslip never came close to getting his hands on it. Three points to England. It's not just a matter of scraping the ball behind you. A good scrummaging hooker has the ball clear to the back whilst keeping his end of the bargain in terms of scrummaging and the No. 8/scrum half has it cleared before the opposition can turn the screw. It's something that has caused issues for both Ireland and Leinster in the past.

    Wait people hook the ball these days? Sure most of it goes crooked straight into the 2nd rows. anyway. Lost art really.


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    #333
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Hooking is pretty much non-existant these days.

    Hooker is still one of the most important positions in the scrum though. Hence why Kidney was so scared to let Sean Cronin onto the pitch for so long.


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    #334
    bamboozle
    Registered Users Posts: 3,699 ✭✭✭bamboozle


    Ireland by 20-40
    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    What is wrong with Best's throwing? His throwing was iffy for a few months after his injury, but it's been fine ever since.

    Against France Best started and we won 100% of our lineouts. Flannery wasn't even that good against England.

    Stop just submitting to the myth that our lineout issue was bad throwing. As soon as the jumpers and lifters sorted themselves out we've been perfect.


    The difference between the two is dynamism in the loose versus solidity in the set piece. As far as I'm concerned, Hooker is the one position that is most involved with both set pieces, and so I'll take someone who is solid in both every time.

    we didnt win 100% of our lineouts in any of the warm ups.
    Against england Best came on for Flannery, first lineout was thrown about a foot and a half crooked to DOC. His throwing has been iffy and he's never convinced me otherwise, Ulster v Saints in the HC quarter final was another example of poor throwing.

    I'm fully aware there are several facets to a functioning lineout. I still rate Best but think Flannery is a much better option.


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    #335
    Cypher_sounds
    Registered Users Posts: 8,121 ✭✭✭Cypher_sounds


    Ireland by less than 20
    Surprised Darcy is in there considering he stayed back 48 hours because of his calf strain and considering they didn't risk O'Brien, hope he comes through the game on Sunday ok.


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    #336
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    bamboozle wrote: »
    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    What is wrong with Best's throwing? His throwing was iffy for a few months after his injury, but it's been fine ever since.

    Against France Best started and we won 100% of our lineouts. Flannery wasn't even that good against England.

    Stop just submitting to the myth that our lineout issue was bad throwing. As soon as the jumpers and lifters sorted themselves out we've been perfect.


    The difference between the two is dynamism in the loose versus solidity in the set piece. As far as I'm concerned, Hooker is the one position that is most involved with both set pieces, and so I'll take someone who is solid in both every time.

    we didnt win 100% of our lineouts in any of the warm ups.
    Against england Best came on for Flannery, first lineout was thrown about a foot and a half crooked to DOC. His throwing has been iffy and he's never convinced me otherwise, Ulster v Saints in the HC quarter final was another example of poor throwing.

    I'm fully aware there are several facets to a functioning lineout. I still rate Best but think Flannery is a much better option.
    Against France in Croke Park we won 12/12 of our own lineouts.

    Flannery has thrown a couple of bad darts in the warm ups as well, and was not 100% at any time. He's better than Best, but only marginally, and thats just as a thrower.

    And the Q-Final was another example of pathetic jumping from the Ulster lineout.

    Best is and always has been a better scrummager. He's also a great leader and he's younger. There's a reason he was started ahead of Flannery before the injuries. He's well worth his place in the team.


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    #337
    Hagz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,257 ✭✭✭Hagz


    Ireland by less than 20
    bamboozle wrote: »
    we didnt win 100% of our lineouts in any of the warm ups.
    Against england Best came on for Flannery, first lineout was thrown about a foot and a half crooked to DOC. His throwing has been iffy and he's never convinced me otherwise, Ulster v Saints in the HC quarter final was another example of poor throwing.

    I'm fully aware there are several facets to a functioning lineout. I still rate Best but think Flannery is a much better option.

    Not that I think Best is a better line-out thrower than Flannery, but in the England game, Best had a better percentage than Flannery. With Flannery on the field we won 9/11 line-outs, with Best on we won 7/8.


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    #338
    andrewdcs
    Registered Users Posts: 1,106 ✭✭✭andrewdcs


    USA
    Cypher_sounds wrote: »
    Surprised Darcy is in there considering he stayed back 48 hours because of his calf strain and considering they didn't risk O'Brien, hope he comes through the game on Sunday ok.

    Yeah, he was the eyebrow raiser for me. Though I'm a bit of an eyebrow slag, I'll raise it for anything these days.....


    Delighted for Murray and Jenno bit iffy on Earls ahead of Trimble, but as The Good Lord Deccie said himself (saith himself?) he's played a few games in the centre (a failed experiment I'd rather was done at Thomond!) and the wing will suit him better.

    I went Ireland under 20 plus, call it irrational exuberance (thank you mr. Greenspan) but I'm feeling like 20+ now....

    danger here!


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    #339
    GerM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,592 ✭✭✭GerM


    The line out stats that are on Scrum.com are dodgy. They don't account for crooked throws, only for throws that are won by either side as far as I know. Best threw crookedly twice in the warm ups. Only way to really see how the line outs go is to watch them again.


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    #340
    totallegend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,234 ✭✭✭totallegend


    andrewdcs wrote: »
    Delighted for Murray and Jenno bit iffy on Earls ahead of Trimble, but as The Good Lord Deccie said himself (saith himself?) he's played a few games in the centre (a failed experiment I'd rather was done at Thomond!) and the wing will suit him better.

    That comment from Deccie cracked me up, as though it was someone else's fault that Earls was played out of position against France and England.

    He hasn't a f**king clue.


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    #341
    Hagz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,257 ✭✭✭Hagz


    Ireland by less than 20
    GerM wrote: »
    The line out stats that are on Scrum.com are dodgy. They don't account for crooked throws, only for throws that are won by either side as far as I know. Best threw crookedly twice in the warm ups. Only way to really see how the line outs go is to watch them again.

    If that's in reference to what I wrote, I didn't get it from Scrum.com, I got it from just watching it there.


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    #342
    GerM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,592 ✭✭✭GerM


    Hagz wrote: »
    If that's in reference to what I wrote, I didn't get it from Scrum.com, I got it from just watching it there.

    Ah, fair enough. We lost 2 line outs with Best; the first two he was on the pitch for I think. He threw the first one crookedly and the second one was stolen.


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    #343
    forlorndonkey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 149 ✭✭forlorndonkey


    Cypher_sounds wrote: »
    Surprised Darcy is in there considering he stayed back 48 hours because of his calf strain and considering they didn't risk O'Brien, hope he comes through the game on Sunday ok.

    Typical Kidney. Playing an already chronically out of form Darcy on an injury in a nothing match which will ensure he'll be unfit for the big games. Stupid on so many different levels. Isn't the first time he's played Darcy injured either.


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    #344
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 24,159 ✭✭✭✭phog


    forlorndonkey wrote: »
    Typical Kidney. Playing an already chronically out of form Darcy on an injury in a nothing match which will ensure he'll be unfit for the big games. Stupid on so many different levels. Isn't the first time he's played Darcy injured either.

    You do realise for us to progress we have to win more games than Italy and hopefully Australia.


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    #345
    andrewdcs
    Registered Users Posts: 1,106 ✭✭✭andrewdcs


    USA
    Really don't think the lineout or scrum was a problem over the 4 warm ups though. In fact our "platform" was pretty good vs France in Dublin, i.e. scrum / lineout / structured game.

    We came undone with "unusual" positional selections, a few rusty hands / feet and brain fart defensive glitches.

    Yes, when it came to brass tacks in the two home games we fell away (badly vs england) but it was in the tackle area I'd argue that everything was lost, tired cliche now but if you're on the back foot at breakdown, you're screwed.

    Aussies may not be a scrummaging mauling powerhouse, but they won the contact area against the NZs (whos fwds I'd take almost all of in a pick up game!) through determination and focus as much as anthing else, that give Genia the Genie and Cooper the, eh, trooper an easy ride to open up space.

    Yeah, we can't afford to cough up defensive ball at set pieces, but if we pick a team to do anything its to drive people back in the tackle, and on with the ball in hand, that pulls teams apart.


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    #346
    forlorndonkey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 149 ✭✭forlorndonkey


    phog wrote: »
    You do realise for us to progress we have to win more games than Italy and hopefully Australia.

    How will playing an injured Darcy help us either against the USA or in our future matches?

    That's a rhetorical question, the answer is that it won't.


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    #347
    CatFromHue
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,150 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    andrewdcs wrote: »

    Aussies may not be a scrummaging mauling powerhouse, but they won the contact area against the NZs (whos fwds I'd take almost all of in a pick up game!) through determination and focus as much as anthing else, that give Genia the Genie and Cooper the, eh, trooper an easy ride to open up space.

    i agree with alot of your post but remember nz played with a back row of williams, mccaw, and vito for most of the game. thats mccaw plus a second row and a guy who is just happy to be there.


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    #348
    Otacon
    Registered Users Posts: 6,721 ✭✭✭Otacon


    Ireland by less than 20
    forlorndonkey wrote: »
    How will playing an injured Darcy help us either against the USA or in our future matches?

    That's a rhetorical question, the answer is that it won't.

    D'Arcy did not exactly set the world on fire in the warm-up games. I think he has been chosen for the same reason Earls has - give them gametime, see if they improve.


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    #349
    WeeBushy
    Registered Users Posts: 3,572 ✭✭✭WeeBushy


    forlorndonkey wrote: »
    How will playing an injured Darcy help us either against the USA or in our future matches?

    That's a rhetorical question, the answer is that it won't.

    Well he's obviously not injured otherwise the management wouldn't have picked him. It was reported earlier in the week that he had a 30% chance of being fully fit for this match. We got lucky for once and this is is one of those time that a player regained fitness against the odds.


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    #350
    forlorndonkey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 149 ✭✭forlorndonkey


    Otacon wrote: »
    D'Arcy did not exactly set the world on fire in the warm-up games. I think he has been chosen for the same reason Earls has - give them gametime, see if they improve.

    He's injured, gametime will make him worse.

    And Darcy and Earls will play every match no matter how badly they perform. Just as they have for the last 2 years. This is Declan Kidney we're talking about here.


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    #351
    WeeBushy
    Registered Users Posts: 3,572 ✭✭✭WeeBushy


    forlorndonkey wrote: »
    He's injured, gametime will make him worse.

    :confused: Reference, or are you just saying that? Because the fact that he's starting on Sunday makes him look fit to me.


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    #352
    forlorndonkey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 149 ✭✭forlorndonkey


    WeeBushy wrote: »
    Well he's obviously not injured otherwise the management wouldn't have picked him. It was reported earlier in the week that he had a 30% chance of being fully fit for this match. We got lucky for once and this is is one of those time that a player regained fitness against the odds.

    Darcy has stated in an interview before that Kidney played him on a torn groin against New Zealand.

    POC was played on an injury for a year by Kidney before he finally had to take a year out. They knew 100% he wasn't fit and they played him, and of course he played terribly - because he was injured.

    BOD was definitely not fit when he was rushed back to play Samoa in the 2010 Autumn Internationals.


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    #353
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    forlorndonkey wrote: »
    He's injured, gametime will make him worse.

    And Darcy and Earls will play every match no matter how badly they perform. Just as they have for the last 2 years. This is Declan Kidney we're talking about here.

    Why given they have rested O'Brien and Healy for that very reason, would they risk an unfit D'Arcy?


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    #354
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    D'Arcy's injury wasn't that bad. They just wanted to make sure there was no swelling from the flight. Obviously there wasn't, so he's good to go.


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    #355
    WeeBushy
    Registered Users Posts: 3,572 ✭✭✭WeeBushy


    forlorndonkey wrote: »
    Darcy has stated in an interview before that Kidney played him on a torn groin against New Zealand.

    POC was played on an injury for a year by Kidney before he finally had to take a year out. They knew 100% he wasn't fit and they played him, and of course he played terribly - because he was injured.

    BOD was definitely not fit when he was rushed back to play Samoa in the 2010 Autumn Internationals.

    Unless you have any info in relation to D'Arcy's current injury that we don't otherwise have, what you're saying is based on suppositions and presumptions. And in that case I see little reason in continuing to engange with you because we can all make statements that aren't based on anything but that doesn't get us anywhere.


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    #356
    forlorndonkey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 149 ✭✭forlorndonkey


    marco_polo wrote: »
    Why given they have rested O'Brien and Healy for that very reason, would they risk an unfit D'Arcy?

    Because Darcy is an untouchable. By contrast SOB and Healy wouldn't have a cap if Kidney hadn't been forced to play them through injuries to other players. Whereas Darcy has been atrocious (by his own very high standards) for Ireland for 2 years, and has never been dropped once and has even been played through injuries (torn groin).

    Likewise with POC, another untouchable, where Kidney knew 100% he wasn't fit that year before POC had to take a year out to heal, and he played him anyway, because POC is another untouchable.


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    #357
    Otacon
    Registered Users Posts: 6,721 ✭✭✭Otacon


    Ireland by less than 20
    Do you have any proof/links etc that D'Arcy is still injured? Anything, besides your own presumptions?


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    #358
    forlorndonkey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 149 ✭✭forlorndonkey


    WeeBushy wrote: »
    Unless you have any info in relation to D'Arcy's current injury that we don't otherwise have, what you're saying is based on suppositions and presumptions. And in that case I see little reason in continuing to engange with you because we can all make statements that aren't based on anything but that doesn't get us anywhere.

    Well we know POC was played through injuries for a fact don't we? And that Darcy has stated he was played through injuries before?


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    #359
    Stev_o
    Registered Users Posts: 9,249 ✭✭✭Stev_o


    Ireland by less than 20
    forlorndonkey wrote: »
    Well we POC was played through injuries for a fact don't we? And that Darcy has stated he was played through injuries before?

    Who is his replacement?


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    #360
    Otacon
    Registered Users Posts: 6,721 ✭✭✭Otacon


    Ireland by less than 20
    Otacon wrote: »
    Do you have any proof/links etc that D'Arcy is still injured? Anything, besides your own presumptions?
    forlorndonkey wrote: »
    Well we POC was played through injuries for a fact don't we? And that Darcy has stated he was played through injuries before?

    So, no then?


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    #361
    WeeBushy
    Registered Users Posts: 3,572 ✭✭✭WeeBushy


    forlorndonkey wrote: »
    Because Darcy is an untouchable. By contrast SOB and Healy wouldn't have a cap if Kidney hadn't been forced to play them through injuries to other players. Whereas Darcy has been atrocious (by his own very high standards) for Ireland for 2 years, and has never been dropped once and has even been played through injuries (torn groin).

    Likewise with POC, another untouchable, where Kidney knew 100% he wasn't fit that year before POC had to take a year out to heal, and he played him anyway, because POC is another untouchable.

    Such utter tripe. There is an argument to be made that they wouldn't have broken into the team as soon if it wasn't for injury, but to say that they wouldn't be capped at all is just nonsense. You're making up conspiracies against Deccie that aren't needed. There's enough reasons to criticise him without your hyperbole.


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