Vatican responds , the Holy See attempted to frustrate an inquiry is unfounded

Biggins · 03-09-2011 2:25pm

pablomakaveli wrote: »

The state has at least admitted it's fault in what happened and has made it's required contribution to the compensation funds. The religious orders and church however haven't done so.

Indeed - to the point now of conveniently using state laws (when it of course is only to their advantage) when they do actually feel like it - to escape paying up!

* http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/24/priests-abuse-catholic-legal-plea

* http://www.independent.ie/national-news/minister-warns-church-on-abuse-irsquoll-send-in-the-bailiffs-2813555.html

...But then again, they won't even pay up closer to home, even with their ownership of 100,000 properties there alone (short story - they could owe up to 7/8 billion. Some chance of getting that!):

* http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/tax-investigation-could-land-pope-with-83648bn-bill-2106113.html

* http://clericalwhispers.blogspot.com/2011/08/italians-call-for-church-to-lose-tax.html

* http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/europe/article2768260.ece

Sonics2k · 03-09-2011 2:27pm

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

You are wasting your time I'm afraid, the masses are out for blood in AH, not that it takes much prodding for them to have a go at religion.

Wait, who's attacking Religion?

People are attacking the Vatican itself for it's in-action against those who have committed atrocious crimes against children.

This is nothing to do with Religion of any kind, and it is certainly no way to defend people who raped children.

And yes, as has been pointed out, you would have a very different tone if the people in question were the British Army, you always do from my time of watching your posts.

Ghost Buster · 03-09-2011 2:28pm

Min wrote: »

Enda Kenny was saying stuff to keep his anti-Catholic atheist allies in the Labour party happy like Eamon Gilmore, Pat Rabbitte, Ruairi Quinn, Ivan Bacik and so on...

The Holy See, says the government made claims without evidence, as the Cloyne report never stated the statement of the then papal nuncio on the framework document (as not being an official document) was used as an excuse to not deal with the abuse cases properly.

They say the bishops never looked for the document to be made official by the Vatican.

The reply from the Holy See looks reasoned.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0903/cloyne_vatican.pdf

Indeed. The good old "If youre not wid us youre agin us" approach. Classic:D

Sunnyisland · 03-09-2011 2:39pm

The hirachiery of the catholic church in its handling of the abuse of children is scandalous,Report after reports are coming out and they have done nothing substantial to deal with the ongoing problem,Instead just waffling and doing cover ups and blaming everyone else.The government need to take tougher action against the catholic church in this state enough is enough.

General General · 03-09-2011 2:40pm

Ah. So the local Irish bishops had gone rogue, it seems... so now, no doubt, the Vatican will be stepping up with a compensation package which will be, of course, way beyond the actual capital of the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland.

Fair play Rome & sorry for the misunderstanding earlier... we didn't get that the local boys were acting ultra vires.

Beggared · 03-09-2011 2:42pm

Does anybody believe what the Church says anymore?

HalloweenJack · 03-09-2011 2:43pm

Teclo wrote: »

Our gob****e taoiseach has been caught out in a lie. The Vatican statement points out that 'he made no attempt to substantiate' what he claimed was in the Cloyne report. He did not and will not because those claims are not in the report.

He misled and lied to the Dáil. It's all there in black and white, he can't hide from it. The fact that most of Irish society knows he lied but don't care says a lot about what type of people we are.

So who's worse?

The liar who's standing up to the Church or the Church who are more than happy to protect paedophiles and refuse to cooperate in the prosecution of child abusers?

How is this a debate?

Enda Kenny is whiter than white in this case. His lie (if you want to call it that, it's really just poorly researched) is nothing in comparison to the Church covering up the widespread abuse of children, not punishing those responsible and refusing to cooperate in the prosecution of those abusers.

Seriously, how is this a debate?

Biggins · 03-09-2011 2:45pm

Beggared wrote: »

Does anybody believe what the Church says anymore?

Some do - as is their right.
But its our right too to hold the opinion that some of they, are living in denial.

Sonics2k · 03-09-2011 2:46pm

I am actually shocked that people are willingly defending the Vatican even though it is a fact they have known about severe child abuse in Ireland for many many years and have done virtually nothing against those involved.

Instead they protected them, denied all accusations and even lied to cover up the details.

This is nothing to do with Religion, it's do with morals, ethics and common decency and respect for mankind.

Teclo · 03-09-2011 2:50pm

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Either you are with the abused kids in this matter or you are not

If you are not then you are a defender of the abusers

There is no grey area in this matter!!!

Anyone who speaks out FOR the church in this matter is obviously showing sympathy for an organisation of rapists

Any bullsh1t yap about official and unofficial documents etc should be seen for what it is
A smokescreen - and these guys know how to do it better than anyone

Remember - no grey area in this matter!

Again, you reject any reasoned examination of Kenny's statements about the Cloyne report. Hysterically shouting child abuse at everything you don't want to hear may be populist and serves its purpose - catholic hating, but it has nothing to do with the protection of children.

Sunnyisland · 03-09-2011 2:52pm

Beggared wrote: »

Does anybody believe what the Church says anymore?

No,

But i do have some sympathy for the real priests out there who are dedicated to what there doing in helping there communities & parishes.

Sonics2k · 03-09-2011 2:52pm

Teclo wrote: »

Again, you reject any reasoned examination of Kenny's statements about the Cloyne report. Hysterically shouting child abuse at everything you don't want to hear may be populist and serves its purpose - catholic hating, but it has nothing to do with the protection of children.

This has nothing to do with Catholic hatred.

The only "hatred" here is aimed solely at the Vatican and those who protected and defended child abusers!

Biggins · 03-09-2011 2:57pm

realies wrote: »

...i do have some sympathy for the real priests out there who are dedicated to what there doing in helping there communities & parishes.

As do I.

I genuinely think that they, the decent ones that OUTRIGHT refuse to deal with Rome and their ways, should leave and set-up a new Catholic religious organisation.

Like Fianna Fail, the current Rome organisation, has been repeatedly been show to be corrupt to the utter core, its evil extending down every branch and connection in many, twisted ways.

Those of any decency should leave it and get out for good.
The current Rome organisation has gone FAR beyond the point of repair. Its time it was shut down - by court order if necessary.

Min · 03-09-2011 2:58pm

The King of Moo wrote: »

Does it really matter if the document was a study document or an official document? Talk about splitting hairs!

The fact is that it was drawn up by members of the clergy, and just because it wasn't "official" doesn't mean people didn't base their actions on it.

And any organisation as old and powerful as the church must have known about such large-scale abuse and covering-up.

And what does it really matter if the Vatican knew about it (though they must have) or just some archbishops?

The abuse is the important thing, and I hope my feeling that some people care more about defending the church than what happened to their victims is wrong.

Yes it does matter as it is in the Cloyne report said that the Vatican refused to recognise it as an official document, the Cloyne report then went on to claim this led to bishops not having to follow it.

The response by the Holy See says the bishops never looked to have it made an official document.
The Vatican did not stop them implementing it. They also say what the Cloyne report says, that Cloyne claimed to be implementing it but were not.

This makes it more than splitting hairs.

Destroyer666 · 03-09-2011 3:02pm

Its still shocking that local state funded schools are still run with the local priest on the board of management, recently a realative of mine a newly qualified teacher was going for a job interview and could not belive to find a creepy old priest was the main interviewer. Pure old school in his manner I was told he came across as all high and mighty to the point of being intimadating and his questions were more focused on the Catholic fate more so than anything to do with education I myself could not belive the church could be that involved with the running of the school given the record they have with children. Now Im well aware not every priest is a molester, but who here would really trust there kids to be left alone with a priest for any amount of time, Church of Ireland all the way No Pope of Rome.

Sunnyisland · 03-09-2011 3:06pm

You cant defend the indefensible,

The catholic church has more power & influence than some countries and yet instead of trying to resolve a huge problem in its own ranks they press the ignore button,They surely must think they are in a different world than the rest of us and there unfortunate victims of which there are thousands.

Min · 03-09-2011 3:07pm

Response to Kenny.

The response says "In particular, the accusation that the Holy See attempted "to frustrate an inquiry in a sovereign, democratic republic as little as three years ago, not three decades ago" which Mr Kenny made no attempt to substantiate, is unfounded. Indeed, when asked, a government spokesperson clarified that Mr Kenny was not referring to any specific incident."

Johro · 03-09-2011 3:07pm

the culture of deference wrote: »

FFS

Enda kenny what are you going to do now with these delusional cnuts.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0903/cloyne.html#article

The statement from the Vatican says "it has significant reservations that the speech made by Enda Kenny TD in the Dáil on the 20th of July, in particular, the accusation that the Holy See attempted to frustrate an inquiry in a sovereign democratic republic, is unfounded."

The statement added that the Holy See wishes to make it quite clear that it in no way hampered or sought to interfere in any inquiry into cases of child sexual abuse in the Diocese of Cloyne.

Furthermore, the Vatican says that at no stage did the Holy See seek to interfere with Irish Civil law or impeded the civil authority in the exercise of its duties.

The Holy See observes that there is no evidence cited anywhere in the Cloyne Report, to support the claim that its (i.e. the Vatican's) supposed intervention contributed to the undermining of the child protection framework and guidelines of the Irish State.

The Vatican also responded to claims in the Cloyne Report that it referred to a Framework Document, drawn up by Irish Bishops, on how to deal with allegations of child sexual abuse as "not an official document..but merely a study document."

It says that taken out of context the comments in the letter from Archbishop Storero to Irish Bishops "could be open to misinterpretation, giving rise to understandable criticism."

It says this description was "not a dismissal of the serious efforts undertaken by Irish Bishops to address the grave problem of child sexual abuse."

Rather the congregation "wished to ensure that nothing contained in the Framework Document would give rise to difficulties should appeals be lodged to the Holy See."

The Vatican also refutes the claim that Irish Bishops sought recognition from Rome for the Framework Document but it was not forthcoming.
It says Irish Bishops did not, under Canon Law, seek 'recongnito' for the Framework Document, therefore the Holy See cannot be criticised for failing to grant what was never requested in the first place.

However, according to the Vatican, this would not have prevented applying the Framework Document in individual Dioceses.
Speaking on Vatican Radio today, Fr Federico Lombardi said: "The document is clearly structured and seeks to give detailed and documented answers to all the questions raised, inserting them into a broader perspective".

"The text of the document shows how the Holy See has given very serious and respectful consideration to the queries and criticism it has received, and has undertaken to answer them serenely and exhaustively, avoiding polemics even when giving clear answers to the accusations made".
He continued that the Holy See hopes that its response "will achieve the fundamental shared goal of contributing to rebuilding a climate of trust and co-operation with the Irish authorities, which is essential for an effective commitment on the part of the Church and society to guarantee the primary goal: protecting children and young people".

The Holy See must be f#ckin blind.

eyescreamcone · 03-09-2011 3:07pm

Teclo wrote: »

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Either you are with the abused kids in this matter or you are not

If you are not then you are a defender of the abusers

There is no grey area in this matter!!!

Anyone who speaks out FOR the church in this matter is obviously showing sympathy for an organisation of rapists

Any bullsh1t yap about official and unofficial documents etc should be seen for what it is
A smokescreen - and these guys know how to do it better than anyone

Remember - no grey area in this matter!

Again, you reject any reasoned examination of Kenny's statements about the Cloyne report. Hysterically shouting child abuse at everything you don't want to hear may be populist and serves its purpose - catholic hating, but it has nothing to do with the protection of children.

Blah Blah Blah again!
Protect your rapists all you like

The rapists and their protectors should NEVER have responsible positions over our children again

It is every decent minded persons duty to ensure that this is a definitive outcome from all of this!!!

We have been too nice to you lot thus far.
No more Mr. Nice Guy would be my motto for dealing with your mob.

Destroyer666 · 03-09-2011 3:10pm

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Teclo wrote: »

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Either you are with the abused kids in this matter or you are not
If you are not then you are a defender of the abusers
There is no grey area in this matter!!!
Anyone who speaks out FOR the church in this matter is obviously showing sympathy for an organisation of rapists
Any bullsh1t yap about official and unofficial documents etc should be seen for what it is
A smokescreen - and these guys know how to do it better than anyone
Remember - no grey area in this matter!

Again, you reject any reasoned examination of Kenny's statements about the Cloyne report. Hysterically shouting child abuse at everything you don't want to hear may be populist and serves its purpose - catholic hating, but it has nothing to do with the protection of children.

Blah Blah Blah again!
Protect your rapists all you like
The rapists and their protectors should NEVER have responsible positions over our children again
It is every decent minded persons duty to ensure that this is a definitive outcome from all of this!!!
We have been too nice to you lot thus far.
No more Mr. Nice Guy would be my motto for dealing with your mob.

But they still have.

Min · 03-09-2011 3:15pm

Biggins wrote: »

Lest we forget - or some want other to forget...

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/08/06/eveningnews/main566978.shtml

.And this was 40 years ago that this ruling was made - and thus continued to the days of Cloyne!

That is about misuse of the confessional, all about canon law.

Has nothing to do with civil law.

Nodin · 03-09-2011 3:17pm

Min wrote: »

Response to Kenny.

The response says "In particular, the accusation that the Holy See attempted "to frustrate an inquiry in a sovereign, democratic republic as little as three years ago, not three decades ago" which Mr Kenny made no attempt to substantiate, is unfounded. Indeed, when asked, a government spokesperson clarified that Mr Kenny was not referring to any specific incident."

Heres a specific incident for ye.

The Vatican refused to allow its officials to testify before an Irish commission investigating the clerical abuse of children and was angered when they were summoned from Rome, US embassy cables released by WikiLeaks reveal.
Requests for information from the 2009 Murphy commission into sexual and physical abuse by clergy "offended many in the Vatican" who felt that the Irish government had "failed to respect and protect Vatican sovereignty during the investigations", a cable says.

(my bold)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/dec/10/wikileaks-vatican-child-sex-abuse-investigation

The poor dears.

Biggins · 03-09-2011 3:17pm

Min wrote: »

That is about misuse of the confessional, all about canon law.

Has nothing to do with civil law.

Indeed - canon law being the rulings that all priests are more strictly supposed to apply and use within their org!
Thanks for pointing that out.

As for civil law - as most of us think as do many governments, the Rome Org thinks its above such laws - or at least behaves as such!

Sunnyisland · 03-09-2011 3:19pm

Biggins wrote: »

Indeed - canon law being the rulings that all priests are more strictly supposed to apply and use within their org!
Thanks for pointing that out.

As for civil law - as most of us think as do many governments, the Rome Org thinks its above such laws - or at least behaves as such!

100%

ScumLord · 03-09-2011 3:19pm

I think at this stage the Catholics of Ireland should make themselves herd and start threatening to break away from Rome altogether and start an Irish Catholic church. Rome is the problem here, it's corruption is contaminating the entire system the Irish Catholic priests are stuck under their thumb and unable to express themselves at all.

The King of Moo · 03-09-2011 3:20pm

Min wrote: »

Yes it does matter as it is in the Cloyne report said that the Vatican refused to recognise it as an official document, the Cloyne report then went on to claim this led to bishops not having to follow it.

The response by the Holy See says the bishops never looked to have it made an official document.
The Vatican did not stop them implementing it. They also say what the Cloyne report says, that Cloyne claimed to be implementing it but were not.

This makes it more than splitting hairs.

That just sounds like handwashing to me.

They could either have forced the bishops to adopt the document, or told them not to implement it.
There's no doubt that they couldn't have at the very least had a suspicion of what was going on here, and attempted to put a stop to things.

But what they're basically saying is that they stepped back and took no responsibility for what was happening.

It's worrying if that's the best they can come up with.

Min · 03-09-2011 3:20pm

teol wrote: »

Bishop Magee was the private secetary to 3 popes. He knew what the **** he was doing.

Bishop Magee is a liar as he told everyone that Cloyne was implementing the framework document but was not, he agreed when he became a priest to follow canon law within the church and as bishop he did not follow it when it came to abuse cases.

The Cloyne report appears to have gotten it facts wrong on the framework document, as the Holy See says the bishops never looked to have it official, but this did not stop each diocese implementing it.

Sonics2k · 03-09-2011 3:27pm

Min wrote: »

That is about misuse of the confessional, all about canon law.

Has nothing to do with civil law.

Are you saying that Priests and the Church are above the Law of the State?

Min · 03-09-2011 3:27pm

The King of Moo wrote: »

That just sounds like handwashing to me.

They could either have forced the bishops to adopt the document, or told them not to implement it.
There's no doubt that they couldn't have at the very least had a suspicion of what was going on here, and attempted to put a stop to things.

But what they're basically saying is that they stepped back and took no responsibility for what was happening.

It's worrying if that's the best they can come up with.

The document by the Irish bishops is not a universal church document, it is a document agreed by Irish bishops for Ireland.

A bishop is a ruler over his own diocese, they make decisions for their diocese, not Rome.

The Irish bishops all agreed to the document and agreed they would implement it, even bishop Magee claimed Cloyne was implementing it when they were not. This is the problem.

It is hard to have a suspicion when Cloyne was covering up from both the state and from congregation for the doctrine of the faith to whom all cases should have been referred - the Irish state to apply civil law and the Vatican so the priests could be removed from the priesthood.

teol · 03-09-2011 3:29pm

Here is the 1997 letter from the vatican to the Irish Bishops:

Dublin, 31 January 1997

Strictly confidential

Apostolic Nunciature In Ireland N. 808/97

Your Excellency,

The Congregation for the Clergy has attentively studied the complex question of sexual abuse of minors by clerics and the document entitled "Child Sexual Abuse: Framework for a Church Response", published by the Irish Catholic Bishops' Advisory Committee.

The Congregation wishes to emphasize the need for this document to conform to the canonical norms presently in force.

The text, however, contains "proceedures and dispositions which appear contrary to canonical discipline and which, if applied, could invalidate the acts of the same Bishops who are attempting to put a stop to these problems. If such procedures were to be followed by the Bishops and there were cases of eventual hierarchial recourse lodged at the Holy See, the results could be highly embarrassing and detrimental to those same Diocesan authorities.

In particular, the situation of 'mandatory reporting' gives rise to serious reservations of both a moral and a canonical nature".

Since the policies on sexual abuse in the English speaking world exhibit many of the same characteristics and procedures, the Congregation is involved in a global study of them. At the appropriate time, with the collaboration of the interested Episcopal Conferences and in dialogue with them, the Congregation will not be remiss in establishing some concrete directives with regard to these Policies.

For these reasons and because the abovementioned text is not an official document of the Episcopal Conference but merely a study document, I am directed to inform the individual Bishops of Ireland of the preoccupations of the Congregation in its regard, underlining that in the sad cases of accusations of sexual abuse by clerics, the procedures established by the Code of Canon Law must be meticulously followed under pain of invalidity of the acts involved if the priest so punished were to make hierarchial recourse against his Bishop.

Asking you to kindly let me know of safe receipt of this letter and with the assurance of my cordial regard, I am

Yours sincerely in Christ,

+Luciano Storero
Apostolic Nuncio

To: Members of the Irish Episcopal Conference
- their Dioceses
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/world/Ireland-Catholic-Abuse.pdf

Vatican responds , the Holy See attempted to frustrate an inquiry is unfounded

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