Vatican responds , the Holy See attempted to frustrate an inquiry is unfounded

the culture of deference

FFS

Enda kenny what are you going to do now with these delusional cnuts.


http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0903/cloyne.html#article


The statement from the Vatican says "it has significant reservations that the speech made by Enda Kenny TD in the Dáil on the 20th of July, in particular, the accusation that the Holy See attempted to frustrate an inquiry in a sovereign democratic republic, is unfounded."


The statement added that the Holy See wishes to make it quite clear that it in no way hampered or sought to interfere in any inquiry into cases of child sexual abuse in the Diocese of Cloyne.


Furthermore, the Vatican says that at no stage did the Holy See seek to interfere with Irish Civil law or impeded the civil authority in the exercise of its duties.


The Holy See observes that there is no evidence cited anywhere in the Cloyne Report, to support the claim that its (i.e. the Vatican's) supposed intervention contributed to the undermining of the child protection framework and guidelines of the Irish State.

The Vatican also responded to claims in the Cloyne Report that it referred to a Framework Document, drawn up by Irish Bishops, on how to deal with allegations of child sexual abuse as "not an official document..but merely a study document."


It says that taken out of context the comments in the letter from Archbishop Storero to Irish Bishops "could be open to misinterpretation, giving rise to understandable criticism."


It says this description was "not a dismissal of the serious efforts undertaken by Irish Bishops to address the grave problem of child sexual abuse."


Rather the congregation "wished to ensure that nothing contained in the Framework Document would give rise to difficulties should appeals be lodged to the Holy See."


The Vatican also refutes the claim that Irish Bishops sought recognition from Rome for the Framework Document but it was not forthcoming.
It says Irish Bishops did not, under Canon Law, seek 'recongnito' for the Framework Document, therefore the Holy See cannot be criticised for failing to grant what was never requested in the first place.


However, according to the Vatican, this would not have prevented applying the Framework Document in individual Dioceses.
Speaking on Vatican Radio today, Fr Federico Lombardi said: "The document is clearly structured and seeks to give detailed and documented answers to all the questions raised, inserting them into a broader perspective".



"The text of the document shows how the Holy See has given very serious and respectful consideration to the queries and criticism it has received, and has undertaken to answer them serenely and exhaustively, avoiding polemics even when giving clear answers to the accusations made".
He continued that the Holy See hopes that its response "will achieve the fundamental shared goal of contributing to rebuilding a climate of trust and co-operation with the Irish authorities, which is essential for an effective commitment on the part of the Church and society to guarantee the primary goal: protecting children and young people".

The King of Moo

Is there any grounds for taking legal action against them for obstructing the course of justice?

Wolfe Tone

Nice selective bolding

SEPT 23 1989

Sue them for a few billion for their actions in this Republic

Ronin247

Same old same old." how dare you suggest we didnt try to protect the children, we pretended that the priests werent buggering altar boys to protect the childrens feeling"

Enda finally said what everyone felt and they try to say he is wrong due to grammatical errors:eek:

They should be thrown out of the country untill they agree to obey OUR laws and not vice versa.

The Waltzing Consumer

They have used very selective wording in this response and it is ultimately disgusting how they shrink away from responsibility with semantics. Instead of looking at what this organisation has actually done, it instead focuses on ripping apart the report and responses of Government by criticising the language, for example "not an official document..but merely a study document." So in other words, we did it in a way that has enough wriggle room so if we get in trouble, we can use this wording as a way to avoid responsibility. They are a mafia.

Absolute bastards, f**k them.

bronte

Well there's a surprise.

Min

Enda Kenny was saying stuff to keep his anti-Catholic atheist allies in the Labour party happy like Eamon Gilmore, Pat Rabbitte, Ruairi Quinn, Ivan Bacik and so on...

The Holy See, says the government made claims without evidence, as the Cloyne report never stated the statement of the then papal nuncio on the framework document (as not being an official document) was used as an excuse to not deal with the abuse cases properly.

They say the bishops never looked for the document to be made official by the Vatican.

The reply from the Holy See looks reasoned.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0903/cloyne_vatican.pdf

uberwolf

Fúck them. Mercifully they're descending ever further into irrelevance anyway.

Chorcai

The King of Moo wrote: »

Is there any grounds for taking legal action against them for obstructing the course of justice?

This is Ireland

Nodin

Min wrote: »

Enda Kenny was saying stuff to keep his anti-Catholic atheist allies in the Labour party happy like Eamon Gilmore, Pat Rabbitte, Ruairi Quinn, Ivan Bacik and so on...

..............

Aye, I mean as an Irishman and father, he was hardly fucking sick of reading yet another report of child molesters being covered for by the catholic church.....

Pherekydes

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Nice selective bolding

Isn't that the whole point of bolding/highlighting?

teol

Min wrote: »

Enda Kenny was saying stuff to keep his anti-Catholic atheist allies in the Labour party happy like Eamon Gilmore, Pat Rabbitte, Ruairi Quinn, Ivan Bacik and so on...

So it had nothing to do with abused children...

The Waltzing Consumer

Min wrote: »

Enda Kenny was saying stuff to keep his anti-Catholic atheist allies in the Labour party happy like Eamon Gilmore, Pat Rabbitte, Ruairi Quinn, Ivan Bacik and so on...

The Holy See, says the government made claims without evidence, as the Cloyne report never stated the statement of the then papal nuncio on the framework document (as not being an official document) was used as an excuse to not deal with the abuse cases properly.

They say the bishops never looked for the document to be made official by the Vatican.

The reply from the Holy See looks reasoned.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0903/cloyne_vatican.pdf

:mad: what an awful response. Do you feel good defending people who protect pedophiles?

bronte

That anyone could possibly defend them after everything is beyond me and a bit of an insight into the type of person that continues to do so.

MetalDog

F*ck the Vatican. They're just sorry they got caught.

And of course they attampted a cover up, nobody does cover-ups like the Unholy See. :mad:

The King of Moo

The weaselling out they're trying to do, and the fact some people are defending them, is bizarre and disgusting.

Even if they were right and weren't complicit in covering things up in this specific manner, the fact is it was members of their organisation abusing kids and covering it up, and they're responsible for this, and for taking action against them.

If there were any decent human beings involved in the upper echelons of the church they'd be too concerned with the abuses committed against children and providing compensation and punishing those responsible to be trying to wriggle out of responsibility the way they are.

Clearly once you get past the grassroots of the church you're dealing with people who are more politician than priest.

Wolfe Tone

Pherekydes wrote: »

Isn't that the whole point of bolding/highlighting?

quiet you

Min

Nodin wrote: »

Aye, I mean as an Irishman and father, he was hardly fucking sick of reading yet another report of child molesters being covered for by the catholic church.....

The problem is the report was not accurate in it's assessment of the framework document, which Enda Kenny used to attack the Vatican.

The cloyne report says the bishops looked for official recognition from the Vatican for it.

The Holy See has responded and said this is not the case, the bishops never looked for official recognition for the document so it was not an official document of the church. This contradicts the Cloyne report.
The Holy See explains how a document is made official and that the bishops never looked to have it official.

The Holy See says Cloyne didn't even apply canon law to some of the cases which would would have got the priests removed from their ministry, so they didn't follow the guidelines by the Irish bishops which would have civil law involved, they didn't even follow their own canon law and it was only after 2005 that Cloyne followed Canon law and send the cases to the Vatican for canon law to be applied.
Cloyne under church guidelines should have told both the state authorities and the Vatican of the cases, before 2005, it did neither.

Enda Kenny's speech was poor, based on falsehoods, Cloyne was not even following church law let alone state law, then Kenny blames the Vatican, you see how ridiculous all this is.
It is like a member of your family does wrong, but you blame the wrong person who was not involved as they didn't even know the wrong was being committed.

The frame work document was not official but it was given to each bishop as guidelines on how cases should be handled - Holy See
The Cloyne report said it was an understanding that each diocese would implement it.
The Cloyne report also said it was best practice and was superior to the State's own child protection policy.


It is a good thing as there is yet another report as 96% of similar abuse cases happen outside the church where there are no reports.

Fluffybums

Ronin247 wrote: »

Same old same old." how dare you suggest we didnt try to protect the children, we pretended that the priests werent buggering altar boys to protect the childrens feeling"

Enda finally said what everyone felt and they try to say he is wrong due to grammatical errors:eek:

They should be thrown out of the country untill they agree to obey OUR laws and not vice versa.

Yet still 90% of the schools are under the control of the a organisation which has consistently shown that child welfare comes a distant second to the organisation.

Biggins

The Vatican knew EXACTLY what was going on (around the world inc’ Ireland) and they knew they should be reporting such crimes to the proper law authorities.

Either they knew that – or they are one of the thickest, most stupidest organisations in the world – and they did not get their power and influence that they have, by being stupid or thick – so I see them as knowing, non-reporting, looking the other way at times, moving their inner perverts around the state/around the world (in quiet cover-ups) and denying the state access to records, etc of those actually abused that they know of!

Any sad person that tries to say the church is not to blame or tries to pass off Romes miserable excuses as good PR, frankly is living in the land of denial and has their head up their backside!

Min

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

:mad: what an awful response. Do you feel good defending people who protect pedophiles?

They are not defending paedophiles.

Read their response, tell me where they are defending paedophiles?

Oh let me guess you have not read the response...

Min

Biggins wrote: »

The Vatican knew EXACTLY what was going on (around the world inc’ Ireland) and they knew they should be reporting such crimes to the proper law authorities.

Either they knew that – or they are one of the thickest, most stupidest organisations in the world – and they did not get their power and influence that they have, by being stupid or thick – so I see them as knowing, non-reporting, looking the other way at times, moving their inner perverts around the state/around the world (in quiet cover-ups) and denying the state access to records, etc of those actually abused that they know of!

Any sad person that tries to say the church is not to blame or tries to pass off Romes miserable excuses as good PR, frankly is living in the land of denial and has their head up their backside!

How would they know when Cloyne were not reporting cases to the Vatican before 2005?

eyescreamcone

Let's hammer them now
Who do they think they are?
Bloody rapist sympathisers!!!

Lets hit them where it hurts
Schools + confession boxes + any influence on our constitution and laws

Let's banish them to the back of the fairground behind the fortune teller and the 3 card trickster

The Waltzing Consumer

Min wrote: »

They are not defending paedophiles.

Read their response, tell me where they are defending paedophiles?

Oh let me guess you have not read the response...

I have read the report actually. They are defending paedophiles by their ACTIONS or inaction to be more precise, then by avoiding responsibility by using semantics. They do what mafias and organised crime gangs do, nods and winks, not guidelines but more of a study, blah blah blah, don't commit anything serious to paper and then deny it all later. They have used every trick gangsters use to avoid responsibility.

Min

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Let's hammer them now
Who do they think they are?
Bloody rapist sympathisers!!!

Lets hit them where it hurts
Schools + confession boxes + any influence on our constitution and laws

Let's banish them to the back of the fairground behind the fortune teller and the 3 card tric

Yeah lets have discrimination against Catholics, it is not like Ireland hasn't a history of that.

Biggins

Min wrote: »

How would they know when Cloyne were not reporting cases to the Vatican before 2005?

Yes, now so they might claim! Very convenient isn't it!

Min

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

I have read the report actually. They are defending paedophiles by their ACTIONS or inaction to be more precise, then by avoiding responsibility by using semantics. They do what mafias and organised crime gangs do, nods and winks, not guidelines but more of a study, blah blah blah, don't commit anything serious to paper and then deny it all later. They have used every trick gangsters use to avoid responsibility.

What actions?

They were not told of the abuse before 2005, so is that inaction?

Wolfe Tone

Min wrote: »

They are not defending paedophiles.

Read their response, tell me where they are defending paedophiles?

Oh let me guess you have not read the response...

You are wasting your time I'm afraid, the masses are out for blood in AH, not that it takes much prodding for them to have a go at religion.

eyescreamcone

Min wrote: »

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Let's hammer them now
Who do they think they are?
Bloody rapist sympathisers!!!

Lets hit them where it hurts
Schools + confession boxes + any influence on our constitution and laws

Let's banish them to the back of the fairground behind the fortune teller and the 3 card tric

Yeah lets have discrimination against Catholics, it is not like Ireland hasn't a history of that.

Rapist sympathiser!
Hope you're proud to be batting for the rapists against the children
Congrats!

The Waltzing Consumer

Min wrote: »

What actions?

They were not told of the abuse before 2005, so is that inaction?

If you believe that, you are pretty much set in your ways so not much point in debating with you.

The Waltzing Consumer

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

You are wasting your time I'm afraid, the masses are out for blood in AH, not that it takes much prodding for them to have a go at religion.

If they were British, you tune would change pretty quickly.

someuser905

Kenny should demand they pay the full €1.4 billion by next week, thats all these greedy pedo scumbags care about

also take back all the schools

Min

Biggins wrote: »

Yes, now so they might claim! Very convenient isn't it!

It was in the Cloyne report too.

Kenny based his statement on the framework document, which turns out to be falsely represented in the Cloyne report.

Wolfe Tone

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

If they were British, you tune would change pretty quickly.

lol, whose side have the catholic church always taken? :rolleyes:

Min

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

If you believe that, you are pretty much set in your ways so not much point in debating with you.

Believe what?

I want your examples of actions and inactions.

It is in the Cloyne report about cases not being reported to the Vatican.

Amirani

Min wrote: »

Yeah lets have discrimination against Catholics, it is not like Ireland hasn't a history of that.

And a better nation it was for it.

Min

niallsparky wrote: »

And a better nation it was for it.

Yeah the penal laws were great :rolleyes:

The Waltzing Consumer

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

lol, whose side have the catholic church always taken? :rolleyes:

Not the point, this "oh woe is poor religion" attitude is pretty sickening after what we have learnt about the church. If this was a report about the British army, you would jumping up and down in condemnation.

Teclo

Our gob****e taoiseach has been caught out in a lie. The Vatican statement points out that 'he made no attempt to substantiate' what he claimed was in the Cloyne report. He did not and will not because those claims are not in the report.

He misled and lied to the Dáil. It's all there in black and white, he can't hide from it. The fact that most of Irish society knows he lied but don't care says a lot about what type of people we are.

Fluffybums

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

You are wasting your time I'm afraid, the masses are out for blood in AH, not that it takes much prodding for them to have a go at religion.

What happened has nothing to do with religion, it is about organisations (church and state).

What happened is abhorrent to christians, in fact any human of any or no religion, the officers of the church and state were at fault. I include the state, since for some of the awful things that happened to occur a complicit state, and some cases society, was required.

I hope that people separate religion from church and from the officers of the church.

someuser905

Teclo wrote: »

Our gob****e taoiseach has been caught out in a lie. The Vatican statement points out that 'he made no attempt to substantiate' what he claimed was in the Cloyne report. He did not and will not because those claims are not in the report.

He misled and lied to the Dáil. It's all there in black and white, he can't hide from it. The fact that most of Irish society knows he lied but don't care says a lot about what type of people we are.

defender of the pedos :rolleyes:

Amirani

Min wrote: »

Yeah the penal laws were great :rolleyes:

Perhaps the Protestants were simply unhappy at the Catholics knowingly turning bread and wine into Jesus' blood and body and choosing to eat and drink it anyway. Cannibalism isn't socially acceptable. I'd be unhappy if someone decided to eat some God/role model of mine.

eyescreamcone

Teclo wrote: »

Our gob****e taoiseach has been caught out in a lie. The Vatican statement points out that 'he made no attempt to substantiate' what he claimed was in the Cloyne report. He did not and will not because those claims are not in the report.

He misled and lied to the Dáil. It's all there in black and white, he can't hide from it. The fact that most of Irish society knows he lied but don't care says a lot about what type of people we are.

I prefer the term
Rapist Sympathiser!

The Waltzing Consumer

Min wrote: »

Believe what?

I want your examples of actions and inactions.

It is in the Cloyne report about cases not being reported to the Vatican.

As we see in their response, the defence of the Vatican is based purely on semantics. So even in the case that the Bishop was speaking to the Pope and told him, the vatican could simply deny it all saying no "written reports" were submitted or something similar. It is a truthful response but only because they ignore anything that does not back up their case.

Biggins

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

You are wasting your time I'm afraid, the masses are out for blood in AH, not that it takes much prodding for them to have a go at religion.

One don't have to look far to understand why we are 'having a go' at Rome and its org!

* http://gawker.com/5825254/the-catholic-churchs-secret-gay-cabal

* http://www.irishcentral.com/news/GAA-not-informed-about-abuse-accusations-against-priest-in-management-127294163.html

* http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/popes-banker-faces-inquiry-over-money-laundering-2347804.html

* http://www.thejournal.ie/philadelphia-monsignor-to-stand-trial-alongside-priests-accused-of-rape-189776-Jul2011/

* http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/new-book-claims-to-lift-lid-on-sex-secrets-of-the-vatican-2625944.html

* http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/16/world/europe/16vatican.html?_r=1&hp

* http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0620/vatican.html

* http://pleated-jeans.com/2010/05/20/15-awful-examples-of-christian-propagand/

* http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/article1974335.ece

* http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8627878.stm

* http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/8660249/Australias-Roman-Catholic-Church-apologises-for-forced-adoptions.html

* http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/24/priests-abuse-catholic-legal-plea

* http://www.sbpost.ie/breakingnews/ireland/eyidojeycwkf/

* http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/08/06/eveningnews/main566978.shtml

* http://www.ianpaisley.org/article.asp?ArtKey=robbed

And there are MANY more!

So far these schites have got off light.
If they were not so dug into Irish society like a bad virus, they would be banned a hell of a long time ago.

Nodin

Min wrote: »

The problem is the report was not accurate in it's assessment of the framework document, which Enda Kenny used to attack the Vatican.
.

......according to the Vatican.

Min wrote: »

The Holy See has responded and said this is not the case, the bishops never looked for official recognition for the document so it was not an official document of the church. This contradicts the Cloyne report.
The Holy See explains how a document is made official and that the bishops never looked to have it official..

The Holy See are automatically correct, are they? Thats odd, considering.

Min wrote: »

Enda Kenny's speech was poor, based on falsehoods, Cloyne was not even following church law let alone state law, then Kenny blames the Vatican, you see how ridiculous all this is...

According to the Vatican, a far from neutral party in the matter.

Given the high handed arrogance they've dealt with inquiries from the Irish government before, I see nothing ridiculous about it.

Min wrote: »

It is like a member of your family does wrong, but you blame the wrong person who was not involved as they didn't even know the wrong was being committed....

If priests in the area supervised by the Bishop of cloyne had been saying from the pulpit that gay marriage and contraception were acceptable, we would have seen a church knowing who was involved, who influenced, what was said, when and where within a space of time that would have put any police force to shame.

Min wrote: »

It is a good thing as there is yet another report as 96% of similar abuse cases happen outside the church where there are no reports.

.....because, by and large, you don't have worldwide institutions covering up the abuse of children since the foundation of the state and doubtless long before.

The newly released Chapter 19 of the Murphy Report on convicted paedophile priest Tony Walsh describes him as probably the most notorious sex abuser to come to the Commission's attention.

The Murphy Report outlines how Walsh abused children in the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s even though priests, canons, monsignors, bishops and the Archbishop in Dublin knew about it.

The first complaint against him was made two days after he was appointed a parish priest in Ballyfermot in 1978 but nothing was done.
It also describes as astonishing a letter from the Archbishop thanking him for his 'dedicated work' in Ballyfermot.

(my bold)
http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1217/abuse_murphy.html

...and thats just one of them.

The King of Moo

Does it really matter if the document was a study document or an official document? Talk about splitting hairs!

The fact is that it was drawn up by members of the clergy, and just because it wasn't "official" doesn't mean people didn't base their actions on it.

And any organisation as old and powerful as the church must have known about such large-scale abuse and covering-up.

And what does it really matter if the Vatican knew about it (though they must have) or just some archbishops?

The abuse is the important thing, and I hope my feeling that some people care more about defending the church than what happened to their victims is wrong.

teol

Min wrote: »

They say the bishops never looked for the document to be made official by the Vatican.

The reply from the Holy See looks reasoned.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0903/cloyne_vatican.pdf

Bishop Magee was the private secetary to 3 popes. He knew what the **** he was doing.

The Commission of Investigation report also said Rome's decision to brand a document on child sexual abuse as unofficial allowed individual bishops "the freedom to ignore" strict guidelines on protecting children.

The authors of the report said the Vatican's actions "can only be described as unsupportive in relation to the civil authorities" – the Garda Síochána and child protection agencies. The 431-page report, launched by the ministers for justice and children, examined allegations made against 19 priests in the diocese between 1996 and 2000.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/13/irish-report-child-sex-abuse-vatican

Wolfe Tone

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

Not the point, this "oh woe is poor religion" attitude is pretty sickening after what we have learnt about the church. If this was a report about the British army, you would jumping up and down in condemnation.

The poster is wasting their time trying to have a debate, especially with comments like "pedo sympathizer" being bandied about. Thats the point I was making. Even without the pedo thing the poster would still be wasting their time trying to defend (or in this case highlight facts) the church, as the forum is riddled with those who despise religion anyway.

I'm not a huge fan of the catholic church for many reasons, the scandals, their routine condemnation of IRA volunteers, reading names from pulpits etc rtc

pablomakaveli

They just seem to be digging themselves into a deeper hole with every statement they make these days.

Their ignorance and almost complete disregard for the anger felt in this country about what has happened is just astounding.