Do you personally know anyone who.

mariaalice

I don't know if this it the right place for this.

Part of the objection to mortgage forgiveness seems to be based on the belief that people used the equity in there house to fund a lavish lifestyle because interest rated were low, or that people were silly to pay the prices they did for there house.

But do you personally know anyone who behaved like that I am not talking of the anecdote we all here about someones friends cousins who re mortgaged and got a BMW, had the kitchen gold plated, and brought a holiday home in Spain.

I personally don't know anyone who behaved like that and I come from a large family and would know a large amount of people.

I think the vast majority of people who are experiencing difficulty are there because of under employment or unemployment or wage cuts.

username123

mariaalice wrote: »

But do you personally know anyone who behaved like that I am not talking of the anecdote we all here about someones friends cousins who re mortgaged and got a BMW, had the kitchen gold plated, and brought a holiday home in Spain.

My brother in law remortgaged his home to buy an enormous fuel guzzling Jeep type vehicle that he didnt need and will be paying for for the next 25 years. Its been used to do a 1 mile school run for most of its life, and he is currently thinking of getting rid of it.

A friends sister worked part time for her Dad, got him to pretend she worked full time, he put money into her account to look like savings and her and her then bf who was a builder got mortgage approval for 600k. The property is now worth less than 300k and the couple have long ago split up.

So yes, I do know people who behaved like idiots with a massive sense of entitlement.

Sunnyisland

username 123 wrote: »

My brother in law remortgaged his home to buy an enormous fuel guzzling Jeep type vehicle that he didn't need and will be paying for for the next 25 years. Its been used to do a 1 mile school run for most of its life, and he is currently thinking of getting rid of it.

A friends sister worked part time for her Dad, got him to pretend she worked full time, he put money into her account to look like savings and her and her then bf who was a builder got mortgage approval for 600k. The property is now worth less than 300k and the couple have long ago split up.

So yes, I do know people who behaved like idiots with a massive sense of entitlement.

Remortgaging his home for 25 years for a jeep that devalued the second he drove of in it, cheeses that's crazy in any mans language What your sister have to say to that ? (just curious)

paul71

A former workmate remortgaged to buy a rally car.

krissovo

Some examples of people very close to me:

Example 1 - Holiday home in Bulgaria funded by equity release of home. Home is now in negative equity to the tune of 120k and holiday home is almost worthless now.

Example 2 - Another equity release in the region of 15k to fund a weekend at the Galway races, a helicopter from Cork, suite in a local hotel and VIP passes for the races.

mattjack

A cousin of mine bought a plane..he's unemployed now,his wife only works part time now ..and all his adult children still live at home and are unemployed.

hmmm

I have a co-worker who used her house as a credit card, the SUV, kid in private school. Even though I know she's in trouble with the bank, she still seems to be spending big money so I don't know where it is coming from (she recently had lots of work done on her teeth).

jased10s

personally know of no one who was reckless .
Only people who brought homes as their main residence.

coolbeans

I know a guy who got a mortgage and topped it up to add a 5 series to his crass looking suburban dump in the middle of the countryside. ****ing idiot! No economic sense, no common sense and no taste, just wanton materialism run amok. Save us!

RichardAnd

My uncle purchased a house in Tuscany where our family originate. I don't know the details of the purchase (whether or not he re-mortgaged the home) or how much the said house cost him but he is now doing far less business than he was during the boom.

My family mean alot to me but an act like that was foolish when all things are considered. To make matters worse, I'm the only one of my family in two generations that speaks a word of italian! Pazzo!

Now besides that, I know plenty of people who did just buy a home to live in. However, and this has been repeated time and time again, the decision to take on the debt for the property was the decision of an adult. Regardless of what they might have purchased their house for, the purchase was still the act of the "homeowner" and no one else. I'd be in favour of a revision of bankruptcy laws but a blank cheque, certainly not.

username123

realies wrote: »

Remortgaging his home for 25 years for a jeep that devalued the second he drove of in it, cheeses that's crazy in any mans language What your sister have to say to that ? (just curious)

Brother in law as in hubbys brother.

His own wife is as snobby as he is and with as little financial sense (theyre nice people but have a tendency to say things like 'well I wouldnt be seen in what YOU drive' - my answer is 'at least I own what I drive') - so she couldnt see any flaws in the master plan. Currently they have over a years arrears on their mortgage and are talking about a loan to go on a nice holiday - this loan from the wifes parents - 'sure its interest free' is the justification. Some people just never cop on.

Sunnyisland

username 123 wrote: »

Brother in law as in hubby's brother.

His own wife is as snobby as he is and with as little financial sense (they're nice people but have a tendency to say things like 'well I wouldn't be seen in what YOU drive' - my answer is 'at least I own what I drive') - so she couldn't see any flaws in the master plan. Currently they have over a years arrears on their mortgage and are talking about a loan to go on a nice holiday - this loan from the wife's parents - 'sure its interest free' is the justification. Some people just never cop on.

Sorry about that for some reason i thought you were male thanks for the reply

Godge

One person on my road who remortgaged to build a huge extension. Also got a big car around the same time, probably on the same mortgage.

Know someone else who remortgaged for an extension, a holiday in America, and college costs for kids.

Know someone else who re-mortgaged to gut their older house and rebuild with all mod cons.

Relative who remortgaged to get deposits for two investment properties that are struggling to be rented.

Know a couple on about 30k each a year who bought two investment properties in Eastern Europe.

Know another couple who had separate houses before they married. Kept both, bought a big house for themselves on another mortgage, remortaged the first two to buy investment properties, are in deep, deep trouble.


All of the above are in deep trouble, all of them enjoyed great lifestyles during the Celtic Tiger era - I can still see the holiday photos on facebook. some were in the public sector, some in the private sector, all have suffered. I live in Dublin so I don't know any of the people who built mansions on the top of mountains in the middle of nowhere and who fitted them out with Italian marble.

Godge

username123 wrote: »

Brother in law as in hubbys brother.

His own wife is as snobby as he is and with as little financial sense (theyre nice people but have a tendency to say things like 'well I wouldnt be seen in what YOU drive' - my answer is 'at least I own what I drive') - so she couldnt see any flaws in the master plan. Currently they have over a years arrears on their mortgage and are talking about a loan to go on a nice holiday - this loan from the wifes parents - 'sure its interest free' is the justification. Some people just never cop on.

Wait and see, the government cavalry will come riding over the hill to rescue people like them with a debt forgiveness plan.

murphaph

I know folks who needlessly traded up from a 3 bed semi d to a 5 bed detached and with it took on a heap load more debt. There are countless examples of this carry on. If such people need financial help it should come from their families, not the rest of us.

Delancey

I have to say that despite hearing lots of stories of excess I actually don't personally know anyone who indulged.

My favourite story has to be the middle-aged couple I saw interviewed on RTE 1 or 2 years ago , their story was one of breathtaking greed : they re-mortgaged their home , cashed in their insurance policies , withdrew their SSIA money , etc , etc and all this was to enable them to buy 4 apartments in the fools paradise of Dubai.
They bought off the plans thinking that they could ' flip ' for a fast buck , of course the market went tits up and the development never went ahead but of course their money has vanished into the ether.

I don't think anyone would argue such greed and stupidity should be rewarded with debt forgiveness.

fro9etb8j5qsl2

Know a couple who remortgaged their house to replace their perfectly good double glazing simply because the PVC rim was white and they wanted it black.

Know another couple who remortgaged and bought a range rover for their sons communion because they couldn't have him arriving to the church in anything else.... Ffs it would've been cheaper to HIRE a HELICOPTER!!

Both examples are earning no more than 50k per couple a year.....

I know one lady who got a new car after an equity release on an apartment she bought 18 months previously. She's in a well paid job so she's still not overly bothered I imagine.

hinault

My cousin and her husband had a nice 3 bedroom house in Dublin but they wanted to "live in the country" in a "bigger house".

They sold their 3 bedroom house which they bought for €200k for €313k, and bought a €450k 4 bedroom house in Clonee.

The development where they bought is in NAMA (as is the developer). The estate that they bought into is unfinished.

thebman

Well people I know could have done crazy things, I don't ask many people about their finances.

Someone in the family did buy a house down the country as an investment and failed to sell the collapse despite me advising them to. The house has never been rented and is miles away from where the person works.

Not that crazy considering from his earnings and job security point of view compared to the price of the house though. More crazy in a not knowing when to sell kind of way since I don't think he ever plans to live there.

looky loo

Sold my house to a really nasty woman back in 2005, she was a pain, in all dealings....shes now living in my old house with a huge mortgage. The house has halved in price....karma?

I've seen people buy 3 and 4 properties, one guy I know is nearly a million in debt, another is about to lose his home here, even though he bought a property in spain that you wouldnt sell for a fiver now. The property madness was like a drug to some people, the cold turkey is going to last a long time.

Debt forgiveness, no, all adults, its like gambling at the casino, when you lose you dont get your money back.

swampgas

There is a whole spectrum of people in trouble, from those who didn't really want to do any more than buy a small family home but over-extended themselves, to those people who really went off the deep end - buying additional properties, buying overseas, buying flash cars, taking expensive holidays, and all the rest as illustrated here.

The thing is, you can't really draw a line and say one guy is somehow a victim and deserves to be bailed out, while the next guy was a selfish idiot who should be left in the hole he dug for himself. Everybody involved should have known better.

The point that many seem to be missing - including, it seems some of our journalists - is that if you are over 18 you are considered "an adult", allowed to vote, and have the right to enter into legally binding contracts. That's quite a privilege - it's also quite a responsibility.

Some people want all of their privileges but none of their responsibilities.

hinault

I do know two people who bought houses abroad.
One person bought a house in Murcia (Alicante). The property has fallen in value as a result of the Spanish property bubble.

The other person bought a house in Florida.
This person has told me that the majority of property in Florida is down in value by approximately 20%.

JustAThought

I agree with much that has been posted . But. I know young married couples, 27/28, who bought in despair with two salaries paying a 2.5k mortgage per month in an insanely inflated Market.
One lost his job; the other is now pregnant. They will both always have to work toservice this huge debt, for a small, average, suburban house in a nice but bland estate in Dublin. Surely there can be some help here for the huge negative equity that they have; 50% aprox. They wernt speculating; they wanted a house to live in, and were prepared to save to try and buy one; rather than rent forever or expect the taxpayer to fund one for them; like many.
Do we want the next generation society that grows up without proper parental supervision in creches with a high child : adult ratio, and in afterschool " clubs", with the black economy ; typically those not paying tax, pocketing the fees for the childminding over a lifetime.or can we not help with writing some of the negative equity off their debt. Let's face it; we did it for the bankers.

littlejp

JustAThought wrote: »

I agree with a lit of much that has been posted . But. I know young married couples, 27/28, who bought in despair with two salaries paying a 2.5k mortgage per month. One lost his job; the other is now pregnant. They will both always have to work toservice this huge debt, for a small, average, suburban house in A nice but bland estate in Dublin. Surely there can be some help here for the huge negative equity that they have; 50% aprox.
Or do we want s next generation society that grows up without proper parental supervision in credits and afterschool " clubs", with the black economy ; typically those not paying tax, pocketing the fees for the childminding over a lifetime.

It's bad for people like that but nobody forced them into that situation.

I think media coverage during the boom was disgraceful with Property sections of newspapers making people feel they were crazy not to buy, rent being called "dead money" for a long time, etc.

But still, people like the couples you mentioned should have been aware of the risks.

I didn't buy because I was worried about the risks. Should I, as a taxpayer, essentially have to pick up other people's tabs.

RichardAnd

There is a wonderful quote from the depression era that summed up the fall out of that particular crash.


Anyone who bought stocks in mid-1929 and held onto them saw most of his or her adult life pass by before getting back to even.


Replace the dates and stocks for houses and you have the future that many are facing into today. There really is no way out for anyone mired in debt that I can see.

Sleepy

A good friend went in with his siblings to buy an investment property down the country which is in serious negative equity, it's currently killing him financially.

A cousin re-mortgaged numerous times to finance luxury holidays, cars, house re-models etc. I think herself and her husband are still doing okay as he has a very good job in a semi-state and she's back working a few months after being made redundant albeit at a much reduced salary but they had originally gotten a very good deal on the property as it was an estate sale bought from family but knowing the area it's in, they'd have to be in serious negative equity after the multiple re-mortgages.

Another friend caught a falling knife (against my advice at the time) thinking a 50k reduction in price on a 4 bed semi was a "great deal". Since she worked in a construction related industry and hasn't been working at anything like the same level she was previously.

A friend's father had an investment property portfolio that if liquidated in late 2006 would have left him with around 5/6 million. AFAIK, his home is unmortgaged but the portfolio losses could take him under.

swampgas

JustAThought wrote: »

I agree with a lit of much that has been posted . But. I know young married couples, 27/28, who bought in despair with two salaries paying a 2.5k mortgage per month. One lost his job; the other is now pregnant. They will both always have to work toservice this huge debt, for a small, average, suburban house in A nice but bland estate in Dublin. Surely there can be some help here for the huge negative equity that they have; 50% aprox.
Or do we want s next generation society that grows up without proper parental supervision in credits and afterschool " clubs", with the black economy ; typically those not paying tax, pocketing the fees for the childminding over a lifetime.

If their debt is really so unmanageable, the best thing for them - considering they are relatively young - would be some kind of reformed bankruptcy process where they lose their assets, wipe their debts and start again after some small number of years with a clean sheet.

Trying to fix the problem by paying off their debts while allowing them to keep their house is completely wrong - for them and everyone else, IMO.

The media seem to be obsessed with debt forgiveness while ignoring bankruptcy reform, despite the latter being far more suitable as an effective and fair solution.

looky loo

The only solution I see for the average joe soap who bought say a 250k upwards house, with these huge mortgages is maybe to let the mortgage go over a longer period of time, with smaller repayments, granted not an ideal solution but if it eases the paying back each month it would help.

Some people got mortgages of 100 per cent, even doctoring their salary figures and incomes....thats deception.

Godge

swampgas wrote: »

If their debt is really so unmanageable, the best thing for them - considering they are relatively young - would be some kind of reformed bankruptcy process where they lose their assets, wipe their debts and start again after some small number of years with a clean sheet.

Trying to fix the problem by paying off their debts while allowing them to keep their house is completely wrong - for them and everyone else, IMO.

The media seem to be obsessed with debt forgiveness while ignoring bankruptcy reform, despite the latter being far more suitable as an effective and fair solution.

This post makes so much sense. If you were a discharged bankrupt after say five years (rather than twelve) and it was automatic (rather than dependent on creditors) they would be ok in the long run.

earlyevening

I know a self employed professional person who remortgaged to pay her 2006 income tax bill.

She'll pay it 3 times over on a 35 year term.