religous teaching in primary schools

byhookorbycrook

Keep it civil please.

dambarude

The ideal situation in my eyes would be if there was a genuine school choice on offer for parents. As it stands there are too many Catholic schools, making it very difficult for parents in certain areas to send their children to ET schools.

*If* this choice did come about, I don't think any school should have to apologise for the religious practices their school engage in. At this point parents would be sending their children to the school knowing what the ethos of the school would involve. If they didn't like this, they could go elsewhere.

In rural areas there will never be two schools of a different ethos very close at hand, but very few rural areas are completely removed from larger urban centres.

I'm not sure how Gaelscoileanna would enter the mix, because I doubt very much that any town could offer a Catholic English speaking school, an ET English speaking school, a Catholic Gaelscoil, and an ET Gaelscoil .

It'll be interesting to see how the Forum on Patronage reports on/resolves the divesting of schools. It could be a VERY divisive issue, and will inevitably get nasty if goes to a vote in individual schools.

D4RK ONION

Some of you are lucky that I did not see this thread til now or there would be far more cards and bannings given out.

magneticimpulse
Rumplestilskin
tadhgmorris

All of you consider this a strict warning. If I see any more uncivil or completely hostile posts in this thread or anywhere else on the forum I will give you some time off from posting here.

This applies to everyone else. Golden Rule of boards.ie is to be civil. Please keep that in mind. Read the charter and PM me if you have a problem with that.

The Black Oil

Oh man, I don't exactly want to be discussing religion on the internet as we all know how that can go..

magneticimpulse wrote: »

Ireland is a Catholic country and thats the way it is.

Sorry, now, but what do you actually mean by this? Frankly, I think if anything many parts of Ireland being a Catholic country are primarily on paper nowadays. Granted, the statistics might point to this and that, the various structures that are in place in education and so forth still point to heavy footprint from Catholicism, even in Catholic schools I think you'd find a good few parents who are not exactly regular church goers.

There needs to be a lot more flexibility in our discourse on this subject when it's connected to something as vital as education.

Father Dougal said it best - 'the whole Catholic thing is a bit of a puzzler'.

tadhgmorris

tadhgmorris wrote: »

hi.
i do not want my two kids one beginning primary next next sept to be taught any catholic teachings.

If you don't mind my asking, have you had a chat about your concerns with the local school principal?

tadhgmorris

yes you are right. sorry got carried away for a minute.

tadhgmorris

not yet. will do soon. my purpose here i suppose is to get more info. see where i stand. and yes of course i will have a reasoned discussion with the principle.

tadhgmorris

you are right got carried away. apologies.

tadhgmorris

Section 30 – 2 (e) of the Education Act 1998 reads: “Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (1), the Minister – shall not require any student to attend instruction in any subject which is contrary to the conscience of the parent of the student or, in the case of a student who has reached the age of 18 years, the student.”

this is something i encountered. the education act 1998.

i am dreading going to the two only schools for us and calmly discussing it with the principles. i am half expecting resistance maybe i am wrong. but if they resist i have no other option. not in a position to home school or anything. but i cannot allow my kids to be enveloped into what normally happens in primary school. i really can't.

tadhgmorris

tadhgmorris wrote: »

not yet. will do soon. my purpose here i suppose is to get more info. see where i stand. and yes of course i will have a reasoned discussion with the principle.

It's worth doing. Ireland has changed dramatically over the last 20 years, and issues of religious diversity exist in a lot of schools. And yep, that is primarily an urban phenomenon, but you shouldn't assume that your local school principal won't be clued in about this kind of issue.

If you explain your concerns sincerely and reasonably, one of two things will happen. Either the principal will tune in to what you have to say or she won't. If it's the former, then you and she will be on the road to making a plan that will accommodate your family's different beliefs. If it's the latter there might not be much you can do, but at least you'll know where you stand with that school.

Midnight Sundance

If your child is going to a Catholic school then the school will have an ethos whereby a catholic/ Christian way is promoted by encouraging kindness and forgiveness. They will also have daily prayers and religion lessons.
It would be impossible to exclude them from all exposure to pryers , songs etc as these would happen before and after lunch etc.
The only way you could prevent this would be to take your child out of class before a prayer is said- highly impracticable and improbable .
Your school will accommodate you as best they can, religion would never be forced upon them nor would they be expected to take part in the religion lesson, saying that, I believe you would be responsible for providing work for the child during formal teaching of religion as the teacher has a lesson planned for that time and you choose for your child not to take part .
The other option is to arrange to take your child out of the room for the half hour or so during religion.
You will find that you're not the first nor last person in your school not wanting your child to learn religion and I'm sure your school has a procedure in place to accommodate you.

jay-me

Were you brought up as an athiest yourself tadhg?

tadhgmorris

thank you for your comment. will take that onboard

tadhgmorris

no a catholic family.

An Bradán Feasa

yvonne23 wrote: »

If your child is going to a Catholic school then the school will have an ethos whereby a catholic/ Christian way is promoted by encouraging kindness and forgiveness. They will also have daily prayers and religion lessons.
It would be impossible to exclude them from all exposure to pryers , songs etc as these would happen before and after lunch etc.
The only way you could prevent this would be to take your child out of class before a prayer is said- highly impracticable and improbable .
Your school will accommodate you as best they can, religion would never be forced upon them nor would they be expected to take part in the religion lesson, saying that, I believe you would be responsible for providing work for the child during formal teaching of religion as the teacher has a lesson planned for that time and you choose for your child not to take part .
The other option is to arrange to take your child out of the room for the half hour or so during religion.
You will find that you're not the first nor last person in your school not wanting your child to learn religion and I'm sure your school has a procedure in place to accommodate you.

That was probably the most sensible post in this thread so far!

As a teacher in a Catholic school, I have had pupils in my class that did not take part in religious instruction. It has never been a problem - these particular pupils didn't say prayers and read a book or drew a picture during Religion time. It has never been an issue.

tadhgmorris

yes i agree that was a helpful post. i suppose my concerns are from having spoken with some people and saw some tv interviews where schools have been not so cooperative. my next move will be to talk with the local schools and get a handle on how they will accommodate us. hopefully hopefully it will go fine.

ta.

magneticimpulse

tadhgmorris wrote: »

THERE IS SOME LOT OF SH*T REPLIES HERE. I do not want to disrupt the system. i never mentioned any other kids having to change . i mean where did you get that from. as for relocating. its not possible for us to relocate. i am an irish man living and paying tax in this country all my life, how dare you suggest that. i am in very rural ireland and there are not many choices of school for us. i am not trying to be over controlling and i know kids make up their own minds as they get older, but the long and short of it is it totally offends me that my kids may have to be taught something i consider as being totally false and untrue, being taught this as it were fact. how would you like your kids to be taught science from a renaissance science book or being taught the earth was flat or something, something you know or feel to be totally incorrect and false. well how would you feel. this is my predicament , i feel that they will be taught what (my opinion) is totally false information and made to believe this little fairy tale is true.

thanks for your comments

Exactly that is what education is about!!!! You do subjects you dont like and subjects you do. Not everyone likes to study Irish, or English but you have to grin and bare it and study it. Its the whole point about getting an all round education. Studying religion doesnt mean you have to believe it...it means you can form an educated opinion.

I am thinking about this from my experience going to a Catholic school. There was a girl in our class and she was really atheist. She made a big hoolabaloo about it.

In the end majority of children bullied her because she was really trying to convert everybody and put down everyone elses beliefs down. Making out people were gob****es to follow such a thing.

We didnt take being Catholic so seriously. We accepted it and just went along with it. I personally took the morals and conclusions of stories to be very interesting.....accepting people with diseases, poor people etc.]

I quite enjoyed learning about other religions. Now in adulthood this person has not made any friends and I feel sorry for her. If she learnt to just accept and respect other people and what they believe in she might have been able to keep friends. Instead her attitude stuck with her into adulthood. Other people learnt how to accept not to take religion so seriously. She was so adament she was against it, that she excluded herself from all of society.

I am still very close friends with about 4 from primary and secondary school to this day. Based on my experience I think its very important for children to able to develop their own thoughts, but for the sake of the society they live in...to accept that by going against that society they risk alienating themselves.

If you were in a Muslim country you would accept the dress code etc. For respecting that countries culture. Doesnt mean you think its right or for believe in the religion. The point is most people will conform to the majority of the society for sake for keeping the peace. Then I see it no different in Ireland.

D4RK ONION

Let me preface this post with this: When I'm not posting in bold, I'm a regular user like yourselves.

magneticimpulse wrote: »

Exactly that is what education is about!!!! You do subjects you dont like and subjects you do. Not everyone likes to study Irish, or English but you have to grin and bare it and study it. Its the whole point about getting an all round education. Studying religion doesnt mean you have to believe it...it means you can form an educated opinion.

I completely agree with you. If we were talking about Educate Together schools, you'd be 100% right, but we're not. So you aren't :P In ET schools all religions are studied from and objective viewpoint, and a child can expect to learn about all religions' cultures and beliefs. This is NOT the case in Catholic schools (97% of schools in Ireland).

The Alive-O programme's ultimate goal is not to study religion and form an educated opinion on it. It is to foster and grow a child's personal relationship with the Catholic God and Catholicism in general. This is fine in Catholic schools in Ireland, obviously, but the point is there are far too many Catholic schools. This is where the crux of the problem lies for all non-Catholic students and parents AND Teachers. (we non-Catholic teachers are often forgotten in these arguements :P)

If you were in a Muslim country you would accept the dress code etc. For respecting that countries culture. Then I see it no different in Ireland.

As an aside, Ireland is not not not!!! a Catholic country. It is a republic, where supposedly, state and church are seperate.

tadhgmorris

its not a question of subjects as in english or math and liking or them or not. its a question of my kids being told what they are being taught in religion class is fact. that this happened. not that its open to i suppose interpretation. when math is taught yes we take it as fact, when geography the same. so you cant really just give an example of subjects and saying the student likes or dislikes a subject to base their cooperation with the subject. i suppose the nearest example like that i would think of is being taught history but giving very inaccurate stories and telling the student this is all fact.

i or my kids are not trying to convert anybody or anything like that. i simply would rather my kids not be taught what i believe to be fairy tales as being total truths.

as for kids developing their own thoughts. well kids especially small kids are so impressionable and will believe whatever you tell them. if a teacher tells them the earth for example is 4000 years old and we all started from adam and eve they will believe this. ok you will say i can correct their ideas from home. but how can i explain to a 5 year old that listen to everything else you teacher says but just this little bit is horse doo doo and pay no attention to it.

As for the dress code in Muslim countries well this dress code is enforced by the intermingled government and religion. enforced by law. so yes people will abide by the law. but last time i looked i am not breaking any law by not attending mass each Sunday am i. and keeping the peace in ireland by respecting its culture, well what if in our culture as you say kids were taught the earth was flat and the sun is a god to be worshiped would you rebel then, would you say oh i think i would not like my very impressionable 5 year old to be learning this. well thats the position i am at i believe my kids will be taught (what i consider) a whole world of nonsense. 7

also if you for some reason had to emigrate to live in a muslim country and bring your kids and put them into that countries educational system with the other everyday muslim kids. and they are taught every day muslim religious values and that their muslim religion is the road to salvation and that they should practise and attend for prayer would you be singing the joys of it. no you would not. because it would offend what you believe, and go against how you would like your children to be educated. now be honest with your reply.

this reply is mostly directed at magneticimpulse (just to make that clear

magneticimpulse

D4RK ONION wrote: »

Let me preface this post with this: When I'm not posting in bold, I'm a regular user like yourselves.


I completely agree with you. If we were talking about Educate Together schools, you'd be 100% right, but we're not. So you aren't :P In ET schools all religions are studied from and objective viewpoint, and a child can expect to learn about all religions' cultures and beliefs. This is NOT the case in Catholic schools (97% of schools in Ireland).

The Alive-O programme's ultimate goal is not to study religion and form an educated opinion on it. It is to foster and grow a child's personal relationship with the Catholic God and Catholicism in general. This is fine in Catholic schools in Ireland, obviously, but the point is there are far too many Catholic schools. This is where the crux of the problem lies for all non-Catholic students and parents AND Teachers. (we non-Catholic teachers are often forgotten in these arguements :P)



As an aside, Ireland is not not not!!! a Catholic country. It is a republic, where supposedly, state and church are seperate.

The athiest out there like to think it is a Republic and of Non Religion. (I just read the above post...as far as I was thought...the "stories" in the Bible are never seen as "fact"...unless I missed a fatal error in my Catholic upbringing...but the whole point of the religious teachings is that it is not factual...they are moral stories to guide people in life. It was based on a culture before TV and newspapers.) People do not actually think God is some guy in the sky with a white beard...its open to interpretation. It is because humans need to visualise something. No matter if you are Richard Dawkins or Stephan Hawkings...the fact is...the earth was created...we dont know what created it because none of us existed when it was created. We can speculate. So the Bible is mans interpretation at a time when he didnt know about technology.

Also you could argue History is not fact!!! You might think it is, but it is not always taught in that way. History is subjective to the viewpoint of who writes it. Ie the person who started the war is not going to tell the whole truth etc. vice versa. History is usually one sided depending on which country it is taught in and what is involved.).



It is a majority Catholic country. Look at majority of towns in Ireland...it consists of shop, pub and Catholic Church along with schools...which as you say 97 % are Catholic. According to Wikipedia (ref on there) Ireland in 2006 was 87 % Roman Catholic. Of course there has been a census in 2011 and that will give more up to date result. Ireland is not the USA. Every religion or non religion is not catered for in Ireland because of its history that it is based on a Roman Catholic population.

As a result of the 2011 census, there will be an indication if we need to change schools in area's to non religion. However as you mention there is already an organisation ET in place in larger areas. Rural areas are most likely to be prodominently Catholic with Roman Catholic schools.

I do not know what the OP is expecting as an outcome. Of course it is an option for the children to draw pictures/read during religionous classes. But it is going to be very difficult for the child to close its ears and not hear songs and prayers.

I find it interesting because I saw the couple on The Late Late Show. I thought they were very naive when they said their child came home from Catholic school believing in God and discussing God. Despite the fact that the couple discussed with the teachers/Catholic school that the child would paint/study/draw during religion. Since the child was in the class it started to take an interest in the religious prayers/songs/stories. The couple on the Late Late Show were completely shocked and disgusted. One I thought, it is totally out of proportion. I didnt like studying Languages in school...but I had to. My parents would never go to the Late Late Show and complain how dare my child learn Irish and French when we never use such a language at home???

I think it is very difficult for the OP to exclude his children from Catholic religion if he sends them to a Roman Catholic church. I am not a very religous person myself, in fact im a Doctor. I just know that I grin and bare the religion during school...just as well as Irish, English and French. In the end it made me a resilient person to other people...easier to accept thing.

I currently live in France. Here it is a joke. They claim it is a Republic. That the state and church are seperate. Schools have no religion at all, no uniforms etc. I see the 12 year olds outside school smoking with their teacher during breaks. The girls are dolled up and wearing the latest designer clothes. The people are agresive with each other. They have no morals...need we reflect on the Ireland-France soccer game and the hand ball?? They are pushy and arogant, especially men. The French do not tolerate the muslims in their society etc. I could go on and on about France and the UK.

The joke is that all their public holidays are based on Religous Catholic Days. Everything shuts on a Sunday because it is the day of "church".

I go back to Ireland and I appreciate the culture. The morals and respect that people have. The structure of the schools. The uniforms kids wear. The respect and morals people have for each other. People stop and wait 5 secs to let you pass. Sure humans are not so different, but I see more kindness in Irish people. What is the difference between France and Ireland? I think it comes down to the Religion in School.

Long Term Louth

Realistically you have a number of choices here to satisfy your personal requirements,
See which schools accomodate your wishes, by identifying what policies are implemented (not written) in the schools in your area.

As your children are of school attending age, I think you stated? then make your decision on what the best option available to you is.

I think if you allow this issue to develop into some form of legal quandry, then ultimatley your childs current needs will not be met.

magneticimpulse

tadhgmorris wrote: »

its not a question of subjects as in english or math and liking or them or not. its a question of my kids being told what they are being taught in religion class is fact. that this happened. not that its open to i suppose interpretation. when math is taught yes we take it as fact, when geography the same. so you cant really just give an example of subjects and saying the student likes or dislikes a subject to base their cooperation with the subject. i suppose the nearest example like that i would think of is being taught history but giving very inaccurate stories and telling the student this is all fact.

i or my kids are not trying to convert anybody or anything like that. i simply would rather my kids not be taught what i believe to be fairy tales as being total truths.

as for kids developing their own thoughts. well kids especially small kids are so impressionable and will believe whatever you tell them. if a teacher tells them the earth for example is 4000 years old and we all started from adam and eve they will believe this. ok you will say i can correct their ideas from home. but how can i explain to a 5 year old that listen to everything else you teacher says but just this little bit is horse doo doo and pay no attention to it.

As for the dress code in Muslim countries well this dress code is enforced by the intermingled government and religion. enforced by law. so yes people will abide by the law. but last time i looked i am not breaking any law by not attending mass each Sunday am i. and keeping the peace in ireland by respecting its culture, well what if in our culture as you say kids were taught the earth was flat and the sun is a god to be worshiped would you rebel then, would you say oh i think i would not like my very impressionable 5 year old to be learning this. well thats the position i am at i believe my kids will be taught (what i consider) a whole world of nonsense. 7

also if you for some reason had to emigrate to live in a muslim country and bring your kids and put them into that countries educational system with the other everyday muslim kids. and they are taught every day muslim religious values and that their muslim religion is the road to salvation and that they should practise and attend for prayer would you be singing the joys of it. no you would not. because it would offend what you believe, and go against how you would like your children to be educated. now be honest with your reply.

this reply is mostly directed at magneticimpulse (just to make that clear

To be honest I would not have a personal problem with Religion, but my concern would be the crap standard of Science and Maths in Irish schools. I would be thinking about my childrens future careers, job prospect and religion would be the last concern on the list.

I assume your children never believed in Santa Claus...because that would be lying to them and not true??

Everything which a 5 year old encounters can be interpretated in the same way. What about all the crap cartoons etc that are not true? Harry Potter? At that age I think 5 year olds are more clever then you think they are. It is a prime example they themselves have to decide, what is true and what is fantasy/story made up to explain stuff more easily?

At that age I had decided to become vegetarian because in Catholic school I was told to repect everything and we were all "gods" creatures. Sure I laugh about it now because I am a scientist disgussing this with people who test animals for a living. Thou people are amazed that I could make such an informed choice at such a young age. I am proud that because of the religion classes I had, I was able to clearly decide in my head right from wrong and to have respect for all creatures. Just because I couldnt communicate with animals didnt mean I should eat them...this all stemed from religious classes. I am still vegetarian and it is in my backbone to still respect all creatures. Im just trying to give you another insight that religion is not all negative..

Another time religion helped me at that age (and what i was taught in catholic school) was the death of my grandfather. I remember going to the church for his funeral. It was the 1st time i ever heard about death. I was of course really sad...but everyone told me he had gone to heaven but his spirit was still alive. At that age, I really felt this strong power of spiritual being (that of course as an adult i dont feel). It really helped me overcome his death. It was nice to know he was safe. I remember my family being upset too...and I would come out with comments like Holy god is looking after him. Sure we know its all nonsense...but sometimes it really does help you get through life. However if I had the athiest interpretation: he wasted away, his cells died, hes gone forever and currently rotting away in the ground becoming compost...I think at 5 I would have been tramatised for life.

I also was able to point out at 6 years old to my teacher that the countries in the world were all joined together millions of years ago...because I read books at home. If I look back I would be more concerned that Science was never taught at Primary school. And History and Geography didnt start until 3rd class when I was about 9.

I dont see the harm in religion...i think there should be more energy trying to get a more factual education younger. I think its no harm to discuss Adam and Eve to children...because you are less likely to discuss sexual intercourse? Children need to know the facts...but I think not all the facts at the same age. Whereas sure I agree Science, other subjects should start younger. The point being they could quickly distinguish: religion = spiritual well being/morals; science = physical life

I just wanted to give you an insight..that although my parents controlled what I learnt at home. My schooling helped me deal with lots of different situations in life...religion helped to describe things in a nice way regarding others and death. So although you think your children will be better off without...your adult opinions are not always the right ones. I think they should be able to decide for themselves. Given the tools and take away what they will.

I still think it is really important to have some sort of "Spiritual" teachings to overcome social problems and cope in life....death, birth, friendships. We did do Civics in school....but it is not really spiritual.

Also as a scientist...I think it is really essential to have strong ethical beliefs. Is it right to do stem cell research? Is it right to test on animals? Is it right to clone people? Is it right to have geneticially modified babies?

All the above questions I think are easier to answer because I also had a religious education and established my morals from these. In Catholic Ireland...can we have schools that might not teach full on Catholic syllabus but still keeps ethics and morals as a subject? How would you teach these to children without making fake stories up...instead of Adam and Eve talk about Barney and Bob???

Musiconomist

tadhgmorris wrote: »

hi.
wasn´t sure which category to post this. hopefully this will be ok.

We are an atheist family. and as such i do not want my two kids one beginning primary next next sept to be taught any catholic teachings. i am living in rural ireland and dont have many choices to send them to. i dont want to be a pain or a difficulty to the school, but i have to insist that my kids are not exposed to the same catholic teachings that i was. so my question is simply what rights do we have as an irish family living and working in ireland. and how will a small primary school with limited resources accommodate my children. what advice would you have for me. i dont want to see my kids being made to look different amongst the others. but i cannot allow my kids to learn a philosophy which we do not follow. for example if we were another strict non catholic religion how would the family manage in the school. i am further concerned when it comes to a communion and confirmation year. from my memory a large percentage of time was devoted to this. so will my kids be lacking a large percentage of learning while the other kids go ahead with preparation for their comm and confirmation. so please help with some constructive advice please.

thank you in advance.

Hmmm yeah. If I was you I'd be more worried about the reception you'll receive in hell.

Seriously though, as a fellow atheist, I dont like the idea of the majority of Irelands schools being Catholic "by default". Why arent there are more non-faith schools? I think religous education and education shouldnt mix at all, as they have no relevance to each other. Also, were I a school teacher, I would not be comfortable teaching religion in any form.

dkin

magneticimpulse wrote: »

The athiest out there like to think it is a Republic and of Non Religion. (I just read the above post...as far as I was thought...the "stories" in the Bible are never seen as "fact"...unless I missed a fatal error in my Catholic upbringing...but the whole point of the religious teachings is that it is not factual...they are moral stories to guide people in life. It was based on a culture before TV and newspapers.)

If you are a catholic then you *must* treat the bible as absolute fact there is no such thing as 'a la carte' catholicism where you pick and choose the bits you like. If you don't believe part of the doctrine you are not catholic rather some form of protestant.

People do not actually think God is some guy in the sky with a white beard...its open to interpretation.

Once again if you are catholic it's *not* open to interpretation, there is a set doctrine which you are supposed to believe.

It is because humans need to visualise something. No matter if you are Richard Dawkins or Stephan Hawkings...the fact is...the earth was created...we dont know what created it because none of us existed when it was created. We can speculate. So the Bible is mans interpretation at a time when he didnt know about technology.

If you are a catholic the bible is not 'man's interpretation' it is the word of God.

Also you could argue History is not fact!!! You might think it is, but it is not always taught in that way. History is subjective to the viewpoint of who writes it. Ie the person who started the war is not going to tell the whole truth etc. vice versa. History is usually one sided depending on which country it is taught in and what is involved.).

The point of the bible is that it is the word of God and *not* subjective, at least not in the way that you think. You are meant to reflect on the meaning of parables and so forth but you must also adhere to a fairly strict inflexible doctrine.

It is a majority Catholic country. Look at majority of towns in Ireland...it consists of shop, pub and Catholic Church along with schools...which as you say 97 % are Catholic. According to Wikipedia (ref on there) Ireland in 2006 was 87 % Roman Catholic. Of course there has been a census in 2011 and that will give more up to date result. Ireland is not the USA. Every religion or non religion is not catered for in Ireland because of its history that it is based on a Roman Catholic population.

There are a lot of people in Ireland who like to call themselves Catholic but they're not Catholic as they don't accept the teachings of the church in full. I can call myself a good person doesn't necessarily make it true.

As a result of the 2011 census, there will be an indication if we need to change schools in area's to non religion. However as you mention there is already an organisation ET in place in larger areas. Rural areas are most likely to be prodominently Catholic with Roman Catholic schools.

I do not know what the OP is expecting as an outcome. Of course it is an option for the children to draw pictures/read during religionous classes. But it is going to be very difficult for the child to close its ears and not hear songs and prayers.

As I've already listed the Catholic church in this country is largely a sham and primarily concerned with power and its reputation. It doesn't even enforce it's own doctrine anymore. The Catholic church of the fifties and earlier was closer to the real thing.

I find it interesting because I saw the couple on The Late Late Show. I thought they were very naive when they said their child came home from Catholic school believing in God and discussing God. Despite the fact that the couple discussed with the teachers/Catholic school that the child would paint/study/draw during religion. Since the child was in the class it started to take an interest in the religious prayers/songs/stories. The couple on the Late Late Show were completely shocked and disgusted. One I thought, it is totally out of proportion. I didnt like studying Languages in school...but I had to. My parents would never go to the Late Late Show and complain how dare my child learn Irish and French when we never use such a language at home???

Well in effect an organisation that many people consider corrupt, parasitic and aloof is gaining direct access to their children and trying to indoctrinate them into a belief system to which they are completely opposed and attempting to establish the church permanently in the childs mind as a form of moral authority to which the child defer to and look for guidance from in future years. Taken from a different viewpoint to your own it is shocking and disgusting.

I think it is very difficult for the OP to exclude his children from Catholic religion if he sends them to a Roman Catholic church. I am not a very religous person myself, in fact im a Doctor. I just know that I grin and bare the religion during school...just as well as Irish, English and French. In the end it made me a resilient person to other people...easier to accept thing.

What about questioning the world around you and asking *why* should you have to grin and bear it. In fact this is on of the key tenants of catholicism they don't want you asking those questions and trying to figure out the answer yourself they want you to defer to them for leadership and do what you're told aka 'grin and bear it'.

How do you know it made you a more resilient person? Is it possible that you could have spent your time in school learning about things that would have had a much more positive effect on you for the rest of your life. The whole point of the the subject was to convince you that you needed this information and that it is important above and beyond other information even though that claim is highly dubious.

I currently live in France. Here it is a joke. They claim it is a Republic. That the state and church are seperate. Schools have no religion at all, no uniforms etc. I see the 12 year olds outside school smoking with their teacher during breaks. The girls are dolled up and wearing the latest designer clothes. The people are agresive with each other. They have no morals...need we reflect on the Ireland-France soccer game and the hand ball?? They are pushy and arogant, especially men. The French do not tolerate the muslims in their society etc. I could go on and on about France and the UK.

Uniforms prevent children wearing designer clothes in Ireland not religion. A lot of foreign people consider the Irish to be arrogant loud, badly educated, highly insular, uncultured and obnoxious this is their subjective opinion as you have your own about Ireland. Thierry Henry's hand ball is not sufficient to judge a whole race of people, I heard plenty of people in Dublin saying how delighted they would have been if it was Robbie Keane and the other end of the pitch. Pushy and arrogant? Want to get into the list of irish stereotypes?

The joke is that all their public holidays are based on Religous Catholic Days. Everything shuts on a Sunday because it is the day of "church".

In many cases in Ireland most shops open on Sundays. Therefore is France more or less religious than us?

I go back to Ireland and I appreciate the culture. The morals and respect that people have. The structure of the schools. The uniforms kids wear. The respect and morals people have for each other. People stop and wait 5 secs to let you pass. Sure humans are not so different, but I see more kindness in Irish people. What is the difference between France and Ireland? I think it comes down to the Religion in School.

I am sure many French people go through identical emotions when returning to France. You have a personal preference for Ireland above France, in your introspective quest to pin point the reason you have identified your religious upbringing as a significant cultural difference between the way you were brought up and the way you see those around you brought up. In reality the answer is far more complex. I blame mass consumerism myself and advertising agencies fine tuning and exploiting many of the persuasive techniques originally honed by the church to spread their message.

tadhgmorris

magneticimpulse wrote:

To be honest I would not have a personal problem with Religion, but my concern would be the crap standard of Science and Maths in Irish schools. I would be thinking about my childrens future careers, job prospect and religion would be the last concern on the list.

I assume your children never believed in Santa Claus...because that would be lying to them and not true??

Everything which a 5 year old encounters can be interpretated in the same way. What about all the crap cartoons etc that are not true? Harry Potter? At that age I think 5 year olds are more clever then you think they are. It is a prime example they themselves have to decide, what is true and what is fantasy/story made up to explain stuff more easily?

At that age I had decided to become vegetarian because in Catholic school I was told to repect everything and we were all "gods" creatures. Sure I laugh about it now because I am a scientist disgussing this with people who test animals for a living. Thou people are amazed that I could make such an informed choice at such a young age. I am proud that because of the religion classes I had, I was able to clearly decide in my head right from wrong and to have respect for all creatures. Just because I couldnt communicate with animals didnt mean I should eat them...this all stemed from religious classes. I am still vegetarian and it is in my backbone to still respect all creatures. Im just trying to give you another insight that religion is not all negative..

Another time religion helped me at that age (and what i was taught in catholic school) was the death of my grandfather. I remember going to the church for his funeral. It was the 1st time i ever heard about death. I was of course really sad...but everyone told me he had gone to heaven but his spirit was still alive. At that age, I really felt this strong power of spiritual being (that of course as an adult i dont feel). It really helped me overcome his death. It was nice to know he was safe. I remember my family being upset too...and I would come out with comments like Holy god is looking after him. Sure we know its all nonsense...but sometimes it really does help you get through life. However if I had the athiest interpretation: he wasted away, his cells died, hes gone forever and currently rotting away in the ground becoming compost...I think at 5 I would have been tramatised for life.

I also was able to point out at 6 years old to my teacher that the countries in the world were all joined together millions of years ago...because I read books at home. If I look back I would be more concerned that Science was never taught at Primary school. And History and Geography didnt start until 3rd class when I was about 9.

I dont see the harm in religion...i think there should be more energy trying to get a more factual education younger. I think its no harm to discuss Adam and Eve to children...because you are less likely to discuss sexual intercourse? Children need to know the facts...but I think not all the facts at the same age. Whereas sure I agree Science, other subjects should start younger. The point being they could quickly distinguish: religion = spiritual well being/morals; science = physical life

oh look , your talking about cartoons and harry potter, i mean really , of course i can explain that the sponge bob is not real. its entertainment. but the teacher teaches , the child must listen and cooperate. i mean there is a separation from tv entertainment and serious school work. the very young child will believe pretty much any thing a authority figure tells them, ie parents teachers adults. so to ask a 5 year old to decide what is fantssy or fact is unrealistic. as for the santy thing. well yes they will believe in santy as this is a fantasy i have allowed, (now the mob will descend) because its a very nice imaginative and cute thing, my house (clearly) doesnt incorporate any of the religious dressings associated with xmas but just that a guy in a red suit climbs down a small chimney. (now the mob will start with "oh but you are picking and choosing extracts of our belief, oh how can you just pick something that suits and not the rest yada yada yadaa)

also i dont see why magneto your talking about your own personal learnings at primary school. this discussion is not about you is it.

and you are suggesting that adam and eve should be used as a means of sexual education. i cant believe you even said that. and nobody is talking about when science etc should be taught. its about us as a family not having a choice of whether our kids will be taught religion or not.

tadhgmorris

you have made a huge amount of sense there. and worded it a lot better than i could have managed.

Musiconomist

magneticimpulse wrote: »

If you dont like the club and everything else that goes with Irish culture then maybe you should reconsider your choices for living in Ireland.

It is a fact that the majority of Primary schools in Ireland are Catholic. No point crying over it. When in Rome....

Also this is not the Parenting forum, this is the Education forum.

Is this coming from the only person posting inthe forum who doesnt live in Ireland? What we're talking about is change and progress. Just because there have been Catholic schools for a long time, doesnt mean it cant be changed. Hopefully when the census is tallied, we will have a voice.

magneticimpulse

dkin wrote: »

If you are a catholic then you *must* treat the bible as absolute fact there is no such thing as 'a la carte' catholicism where you pick and choose the bits you like. If you don't believe part of the doctrine you are not catholic rather some form of protestant.



Once again if you are catholic it's *not* open to interpretation, there is a set doctrine which you are supposed to believe.


If you are a catholic the bible is not 'man's interpretation' it is the word of God.


The point of the bible is that it is the word of God and *not* subjective, at least not in the way that you think. You are meant to reflect on the meaning of parables and so forth but you must also adhere to a fairly strict inflexible doctrine.


There are a lot of people in Ireland who like to call themselves Catholic but they're not Catholic as they don't accept the teachings of the church in full. I can call myself a good person doesn't necessarily make it true.



As I've already listed the Catholic church in this country is largely a sham and primarily concerned with power and its reputation. It doesn't even enforce it's own doctrine anymore. The Catholic church of the fifties and earlier was closer to the real thing.



Well in effect an organisation that many people consider corrupt, parasitic and aloof is gaining direct access to their children and trying to indoctrinate them into a belief system to which they are completely opposed and attempting to establish the church permanently in the childs mind as a form of moral authority to which the child defer to and look for guidance from in future years. Taken from a different viewpoint to your own it is shocking and disgusting.


What about questioning the world around you and asking *why* should you have to grin and bear it. In fact this is on of the key tenants of catholicism they don't want you asking those questions and trying to figure out the answer yourself they want you to defer to them for leadership and do what you're told aka 'grin and bear it'.

How do you know it made you a more resilient person? Is it possible that you could have spent your time in school learning about things that would have had a much more positive effect on you for the rest of your life. The whole point of the the subject was to convince you that you needed this information and that it is important above and beyond other information even though that claim is highly dubious.


Uniforms prevent children wearing designer clothes in Ireland not religion. A lot of foreign people consider the Irish to be arrogant loud, badly educated, highly insular, uncultured and obnoxious this is their subjective opinion as you have your own about Ireland. Thierry Henry's hand ball is not sufficient to judge a whole race of people, I heard plenty of people in Dublin saying how delighted they would have been if it was Robbie Keane and the other end of the pitch. Pushy and arrogant? Want to get into the list of irish stereotypes?


In many cases in Ireland most shops open on Sundays. Therefore is France more or less religious than us?


I am sure many French people go through identical emotions when returning to France. You have a personal preference for Ireland above France, in your introspective quest to pin point the reason you have identified your religious upbringing as a significant cultural difference between the way you were brought up and the way you see those around you brought up. In reality the answer is far more complex. I blame mass consumerism myself and advertising agencies fine tuning and exploiting many of the persuasive techniques originally honed by the church to spread their message.

I chose to remain Catholic and if I want to pick and chose from that I will. If I want to use it for interpretation and my family do...then we chose to do that. It is not for you to decide if you agree with peoples level of Catholic. If people gain something out of it...if they pick or chose based on stories/fabels and it helps them live a better life. If it helps them deal with death, marriage, birth etc. Then let them be.

The census in Ireland helps decide how Catholics there are. From this information the Government can decide if they should provide more schools with non religion. It is up to people to decide that. If the majority in an area state on the census they are Catholic and many people send their children to the schools. Maybe there is not a need.

I do question the world around me. But I know I am not better than anybody and I know I do not have all the answers. I do not judge people if they have a totally different way of thinking. Thou I like to understand why they think in such a way...its interesting.

I did need the information. It helped me be a better person. I enjoyed it and it was a positive experience. I would not like to have attended a French or UK state school for example.

Yes I know shops are open in Ireland on a Sunday. France claims the church and state are seperate yet they close shops on Sunday because it is Catholic Church day. They also use all Catholic religious days...assumption/asscension as their public holidays. Talk about calling the kettle black.

As for OP...well you said you live in a rural area in which the only option is a Catholic school. Which technically means you have no option if you are adament your children should not be taught religion. I was just expressing that it might not be so bad or do them harm. I also suggested you move to an area with a non religious school, but you said that was not an option?? So I am not sure what you are seeking from this forum??

All I can see is that you will have to send your children to the Catholic school. They will paint and read during religion. They cannot close their ears and will of course hear prayers and stuff...Which will make you angry and mad. Your children will feel crap because you told them not to listen to the prayers...but they cant close their ears.

I am just trying to reason with you. You really do not have many options besides the above and it is not good enough for you.

magneticimpulse

Musiconomist wrote: »

Is this coming from the only person posting inthe forum who doesnt live in Ireland? What we're talking about is change and progress. Just because there have been Catholic schools for a long time, doesnt mean it cant be changed. Hopefully when the census is tallied, we will have a voice.

Haha well I am counted on the 2011 Irish Census.

That is a small minded view point. You do not know what I am doing in France or how long for. Just because I am not in Ireland today, doesnt mean I am not in Ireland tomorrow. Therefore the way Ireland is run is of my concern too.

I am coming from the viewpoint that i have lived in UK and France. I have seen this "socialist" change. Its not all what it is cracked up to be. Sure I totally accept change...but your just changing one thing for another. With the void something else is bound to replace it. Is it a case of the grass is always greener on the other side?

Are we becoming too PC? Not wanting to offend people? How far do we take it? Will people be better off with the change? Will people be better off with no religion, no spiritual believes, no morals? etc?

Could we risk are producing greedy, materilistic children who sponge off their parents for money?? Or can we still educate children without religion but with some other subject which still enforces morals and ethical beliefs? Without offending anybody? Humanist schools??

Musiconomist

tadhgmorris wrote: »

...and you are suggesting that adam and eve should be used as a means of sexual education. i cant believe you even said that. and nobody is talking about when science etc should be taught. its about us as a family not having a choice of whether our kids will be taught religion or not.

Haha you'd have kids disembowelling themselves, trying to take out a rib. This is a prime example of why religion shouldnt be taught to children.