religous teaching in primary schools

tadhgmorris

hi.
wasn´t sure which category to post this. hopefully this will be ok.

We are an atheist family. and as such i do not want my two kids one beginning primary next next sept to be taught any catholic teachings. i am living in rural ireland and dont have many choices to send them to. i dont want to be a pain or a difficulty to the school, but i have to insist that my kids are not exposed to the same catholic teachings that i was. so my question is simply what rights do we have as an irish family living and working in ireland. and how will a small primary school with limited resources accommodate my children. what advice would you have for me. i dont want to see my kids being made to look different amongst the others. but i cannot allow my kids to learn a philosophy which we do not follow. for example if we were another strict non catholic religion how would the family manage in the school. i am further concerned when it comes to a communion and confirmation year. from my memory a large percentage of time was devoted to this. so will my kids be lacking a large percentage of learning while the other kids go ahead with preparation for their comm and confirmation. so please help with some constructive advice please.

thank you in advance.

MitchKoobski

Sorry, misread the Primary part. Surely you can just tell the school they won't be making their communion or confirmation because your family is atheist?

They gave that option for my younger brothers class last year. Anyone who wasnt takinjg part just went to another classroom for a bit and did some homework.

tadhgmorris

yes thats sounds ok. but what i am concerned about is the every day learning of prayers even from infants learning how to bless yourself in the morning etc etc. its a continuous thing with primary schools. and ofcourse i am not saying the other kids should have to change in any way to accommodate us but i am terrified of not being able to control what exposure my children will have.

highlydebased

A highly understandable concern and one I would share myself (well, will share anyway )

My take on it would be if it is a catholic school like most are, they don't have to do very much to accommodate you, unfortunately. It would be best speak with the principal and teacher about the issue and see what can be done- Obviously if they're starting jnr infants they cant really go off to another room to do homework, that cant be a solution for another few years.

Best of luck and hope it works out.

tadhgmorris

but i think legally we have to be accommodated. there is the education act dont know what year. and religious beliefs have to be respected. although i dont have a religion. but if for example i were a budhist and it offends my religion to partake in the catholic teachings i need to be accommodated. i will contact the dept of education and see what the story is .

MitchKoobski

Tbh they won't make him do it, if they can't accomodate a separate room they'll just have him sit at the back and do his own work while they do the religious stuff. Seen it plenty of times before.

tadhgmorris

right so you think its not a big issue then. and i really dont want to inflate this is there is no need to you know.

right thanks for the comments

if any one has any clear legislative information for me as in if there is any specifics of law that i have on my side i would be grateful for that infor.

daydorunrun

Ah sure a bit of religion never hurt anybody.

Ok well maybe a few million;)

deise go deo

As far as I know you will be accomodated in so far as your child would not be expected to participate in the religious aspects of the class.

When religion is being taught they would do something else like homework or reading a book.
Simmilar to a child who is exempt from Irish in Secondary school.

I don't think there is any requirement for the school to do any more than that, though I may be wrong.

Would that be acceptable to you? If not then what would you like to happen instead??

vicwatson

Here might be helpful -

http://www.ihrc.ie/download/pdf/religionandeducationpdf.pdf

and here -

http://www.teachdontpreach.ie/opting-out/letter-for-primary-schools/

Best of luck, hopefully you get a good reaction.

Surely you can just tell the school they won't be making their communion or confirmation because your family is atheist?

Just so you know you are under NO obligation to discuss this with the school under EU Law - Article 8 Part 2 of The European Convention of Human Rights -

http://www.hri.org/docs/ECHR50.html

tadhgmorris

that would be fine i think. i am just concerned in case i meet a resistance to us.

thanks for comment

Toto Wolfcastle

When I started primary school over 20 years ago there were a few kids in my class who didn't do religion and they were always accommodated so I really don't think that you'll be met with resistance. I think it's fairly common these days.

D4RK ONION

For anyone interested, there'll be a "discussion" on the late late show tonight about religion and the education system. Signs are hopeful for a somewhat evenly voiced debate, but with Ryan at the helm that's massively unlikely.

MitchKoobski

The words "even debate" and "ryan tubridy" never go together.

E.T.

tadhgmorris wrote: »

but i think legally we have to be accommodated. there is the education act dont know what year. and religious beliefs have to be respected. although i dont have a religion. but if for example i were a budhist and it offends my religion to partake in the catholic teachings i need to be accommodated. i will contact the dept of education and see what the story is .

Unfortunately, the Department will probably just tell you that you have the choice to send you child to an ET or non-denominational school. Never mind that they're few and far between in rural Ireland. There is a paragraph in the 1965 Rules for National Schools which states that "Legislation providing State aid for schools shall not discriminate between schools under the management of different religious denominations, nor be such as to affect prejudicially the right of any child to attend a school receiving public money without attending religious instruction at that school".

The Education Act 1998 states that: (The Minister) "shall not require any student to attend instruction in any subject which is contrary to the conscience of the parent of the student or in the case of a student who has reachedthe age of 18 years, the student.". It then contradicts this by stating that the (B.O.M.) "uphold, and be accountable to the patron for so upholding, the characteristic spirit of the school as determined by the cultural, educational, moral, religious, social, linguistic and spiritual values and traditions which inform and
are characteristic of the objectives and conduct of the school."

To be honest, there's nothing that teachers in a rural Catholic ethos school can do to facilitate if you don't want your child to be exposed to religious instruction at all. There just isn't anywhere that a child can go while the rest of the class are doing religion. There aren't any extra teachers or spare rooms for supervision. I don't agree with this situation, and feel that it is very unfair.

Most teachers aren't going to have any problem if you don't want your child doing the Alive O programme.

These sites might be of interest to you:

http://www.teachdontpreach.ie
http://www.educatetogether.ie/reference_articles/Ref_Art_013.html

byhookorbycrook

No " non-denominational" schools exist in Ireland.

byhookorbycrook

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

No " non-denominational" schools exist in Ireland.

I suppose that begs the question as to what is a "non-denominational" school? Is it one that makes no mention of religion at all?

E.T.

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

No " non-denominational" schools exist in Ireland.

Oops - I meant multi-denominational.

magneticimpulse

tadhgmorris wrote: »

yes thats sounds ok. but what i am concerned about is the every day learning of prayers even from infants learning how to bless yourself in the morning etc etc. its a continuous thing with primary schools. and ofcourse i am not saying the other kids should have to change in any way to accommodate us but i am terrified of not being able to control what exposure my children will have.

You will just have to move!!! if there are only catholic schools in the area and you know they are going to teach prayers etc why do you want to disrupt the system? Why do you want to be the over protective mother who seperates her children from the rest of the pack? You say you have a "fear you wont be able to control exposure your children will have"? There are many things which your children will be exposed to during life. It's part of children growing up. They can be given certain guidelines and education but they at the end of the day will make up their own minds, not you.

Ireland is a Catholic country and you know yourself that majority of schools are Catholic. If you didnt like it you should have thought about moving to a city with more selection.

Why should majority of people change just to suit your 2 children? I think Religion education can give young children an insight into respecting others and morals. Many countries are missing those things today because young people are not being educated about morals or respect.

MitchKoobski

magneticimpulse wrote: »

You will just have to move!!! if there are only catholic schools in the area and you know they are going to teach prayers etc why do you want to disrupt the system? Ireland is a Catholic country and you know yourself that majority of schools are catholic. If you didnt like it you should have thought about moving to a city with more selection.

Why should majority of people change just to suit your 2 children?

Christ almighty theres a post! (no pun intended).

If you don't like you kids being forced to learn prayers then you should have just moved somewhere else?

Disrupting the system? It's not asking to change the system! It's asking why should the child be forced, rather than give the parents an option.

mikemac

It's different in secondary where students can be excused and head off to another room for self study or sit in the lobby

A primary school generally won't have another room so your two children will just have to read books or keep occupied while the class are doing religion.

The likes of Educate Together schools often get started by hard working locals who do a lot of organizing.
So if it's wanted and needed in your area you'll have to get cracking and working in the locality.
No point just sitting back and contacting the Department and quoting legislation

magneticimpulse

MitchKoobski wrote: »

Christ almighty theres a post! (no pun intended).

If you don't like you kids being forced to learn prayers then you should have just moved somewhere else?

Disrupting the system? It's not asking to change the system! It's asking why should the child be forced, rather than give the parents an option.

Ireland is a Catholic country and thats the way it is. Why are people so naive about their childrens education? If it was that important to them they would have chosen to live next to a school which they are interested in for their childs future. It's obvious there is going to be more selection in bigger cities. If they were that concerned that their child would be "forced" to do something "the parent" did not agree with, they would have moved to a bigger city.

These people are disrupting the system. Children need to be educated right from wrong and morals. How to respect each other etc. Religion is an outlet in which to do that. How can you see that as wrong? Even at Secondary level, Catholic schools teach about all religions and cultures. It is in the core of Catholic religion to respect everyone and threat everyone equally. So there is definitely not going to be a problem with the school understanding this. Thou you cannot expect your child to have 5 star treatment and be put up in a private room during religious education.

Again these are "parents" controlling their children. I think there are far too many over cautious parents. Any parents who were like this when I went to school, their children got bullied. So I dont think its right to seperate children. What next? Parents not wanting their obese child to do P.E?

MitchKoobski

magneticimpulse wrote: »

It is in the core of Catholic religion to respect everyone and threat everyone equally.

Unless of course, you don't want your child to be taught catholic prayers while in school. Is that it?

There's no point debating this here, this is the parenting forum and its dragging the thread off topic, so let that be the end of it.

magneticimpulse

MitchKoobski wrote: »

Unless of course, you don't want your child to be taught catholic prayers while in school. Is that it?

There's no point debating this here, this is the parenting forum and its dragging the thread off topic, so let that be the end of it.

If you dont like the club and everything else that goes with Irish culture then maybe you should reconsider your choices for living in Ireland.

It is a fact that the majority of Primary schools in Ireland are Catholic. No point crying over it. When in Rome....

Also this is not the Parenting forum, this is the Education forum.

MitchKoobski

"Sure you may as well just raise your child Catholic and just get on with it"

tadhgmorris

THERE IS SOME LOT OF SH*T REPLIES HERE. I do not want to disrupt the system. i never mentioned any other kids having to change . i mean where did you get that from. as for relocating. its not possible for us to relocate. i am an irish man living and paying tax in this country all my life, how dare you suggest that. i am in very rural ireland and there are not many choices of school for us. i am not trying to be over controlling and i know kids make up their own minds as they get older, but the long and short of it is it totally offends me that my kids may have to be taught something i consider as being totally false and untrue, being taught this as it were fact. how would you like your kids to be taught science from a renaissance science book or being taught the earth was flat or something, something you know or feel to be totally incorrect and false. well how would you feel. this is my predicament , i feel that they will be taught what (my opinion) is totally false information and made to believe this little fairy tale is true.

thanks for your comments

tadhgmorris

Constitutional Right under Article 44.2.4

Section 30 – 2 (e) of the Education Act 1998 reads: “Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (1), the Minister – shall not require any student to attend instruction in any subject which is contrary to the conscience of the parent of the student or, in the case of a student who has reached the age of 18 years, the student.”

Rumplestilskin

magneticimpulse wrote: »

If you dont like the club and everything else that goes with Irish culture then maybe you should reconsider your choices for living in Ireland.

It is a fact that the majority of Primary schools in Ireland are Catholic. No point crying over it. When in Rome....

Also this is not the Parenting forum, this is the Education forum.

Wanker.

Rumplestilskin

magneticimpulse wrote: »

If you dont like the club and everything else that goes with Irish culture then maybe you should reconsider your choices for living in Ireland.

It is a fact that the majority of Primary schools in Ireland are Catholic. No point crying over it. When in Rome....

Also this is not the Parenting forum, this is the Education forum.

You and the likes of you, should have been swallowed by your mother. Git

tadhgmorris

i live in rural ireland not many options open to me. i cannot relocate . so any other suggestions?

tadhgmorris

and if i lived in iraq and was a strict muslim living by for example taliban regeime. and i decide in adult life that i no longer want to follow this life and wish my kids not to too. does that mean i should be forced into all kinds of difficult situations and decisions. people like you suggesting i should accept an unacceptable situation or maybe emigrate. just because i dont want to follow the taliban. come on now your able to read and write a bit are you have you any little brain between the ears eh wha??