Cover the sahara desert with solar panels!

gonedrinking

That will provide Europe with all their energy requirements going forward. I deserve a nobel prize for this idea.

Sky King

Except its a stupid idea.

Other than that it's flawless though.

gonedrinking

Sky King wrote: »

Except its a stupid idea.

Other than that it's flawless though.

hows it stupid

Mike 1972

gonedrinking wrote: »

I deserve a nobel prize for this idea.

I think originality might be be of the criteria ?

Sky King

Well firstly, if it was a good idea it would have been done by now. Secondly, you can't just 'put in solar panels' you need to have a huge electrical infrastructure to transmit the power, thirdly, photovoltaic cells are quite inefficient at creating electricity and cost an absolute fortune to make.

Fourthly, as with wind power, when you rely on something like the sun which is not always shining like on cloudy days or at night time, you need to have traditional power stations in reserve to pick up the slack. these can't just be 'switched on' they need to be left on all the time.

There's more, but essentially, thats why.

Mike 1972

Sky King wrote: »

Well firstly, if it was a good idea it would have been done by now.

?

gonedrinking

Sky King wrote: »

Fourthly, as with wind power, when you rely on something like the sun which is not always shining like on cloudy days or at night time, you need to have traditional power stations in reserve to pick up the slack.

wrong, the energy created can be stored (probably)

Amhran Nua

Sky King wrote: »

Well firstly, if it was a good idea it would have been done by now. Secondly, you can't just 'put in solar panels' you need to have a huge electrical infrastructure to transmit the power, thirdly, photovoltaic cells are quite inefficient at creating electricity and cost an absolute fortune to make.

Fourthly, as with wind power, when you rely on something like the sun which is not always shining like on cloudy days or at night time, you need to have traditional power stations in reserve to pick up the slack. these can't just be 'switched on' they need to be left on all the time.

There's more, but essentially, thats why.

And almost every word wrong.

If around two to five percent of the uninhabited portions of the Sahara were covered in PV cells, you would supply enough energy for the entire planet.

That's why people are setting up something similar right now.

Happyzebra

What a fantastic idea.

Elohim

gonedrinking wrote: »

That will provide Europe with all their energy requirements going forward. I deserve a nobel prize for this idea.

Do the Africans get a say in this? Or is it just Europeans that'll get the electricity.

Also, energy can't be stored easily so at niht it wouldn't work.

kylith

Wouldn't it ruin the ecosystem there?

pickarooney

Elohim wrote: »

Do the Africans get a say in this? Or is it just Europeans that'll get the electricity.

Also, energy can't be stored easily so at niht it wouldn't work.

How do batteries work?

Mike 1972

Elohim wrote: »

Also, energy can't be stored easily .

TBH a lot of discussions on energy problems focus too much on finding new sources of energy rather than the real problems of storage (and to a lesser extent distribution).

Wind, tidal, wave and solar all have issues with matching fluctuating supply to demand. Electric cars are disadvantaged by the fact that its difficult to match one of the biggest advantages of petrol namely its so damn good at storing a large quantity of energy in a small mass. Even hydrogen suffers storage and distribution problems (its very prone to leakage).

If we could come up with a feasible way of bulk storage of large amounts of electric power we could be laughing (or smiling anyway)

pickarooney wrote: »

How do batteries work?

Not very well (right now)

gonedrinking

Elohim wrote: »

Also, energy can't be stored easily so at niht it wouldn't work.

Energy is available in abundance and we have the technology to use it
Within six hours, deserts receive more energy from the sun than humanity consumes within a year. The sun shines all day on a belt that encompasses the globe either side of the equator – and with the technology that is now available, most countries could supplement their energy mix with clean electricity from deserts. Thanks to heat storage tanks, solar-thermal power plants in deserts can supply electricity day and night, ideally supplementing electricity grids that rely on fluctuating energy sources such as photovoltaic and wind power.

Son Of A Vidic

gonedrinking wrote: »

That will provide Europe with all their energy requirements going forward.

Going forward? Going forward where? Is Europe relocating?

mossy2390

it has been thought of before, and the whole sahara would provide enough power for the whole world 55 times over, apparently solar farms around the size of wales would power the whole of Europe if they were placed in the sahara.
the problem is setting it up, building roads and infrastructure into the area as well as creating a massive new electrical grid to distribute it. it has been estimated to cost around 35 billion, not much when you think about the whole of Europe and other country pooling together.
as for PV cells being inefficient and the problems with weather and night time, its the sahara there is rarely a cloud in the sky there, there is also different ways to get power besides PV cells, one being a solar tower where mirrors are used to focus the energy onto one spot which heats water which turns a turbine, there are also concave mirrors that focus the sun onto pipes that contain a coolant that then again turns a turbine and can also be used to store the heat in molten salt which can then be tapped into to run the generators at night.

naturally there are other problems, sand covering the cells/mirrors is a big one, but this could be overcome, also diplomatic issues, many different country's borders are in the sahara and they might not be willing,etc

Phill Ewinn

Amhran Nua wrote: »

And almost every word wrong.

If around two to five percent of the uninhabited portions of the Sahara were covered in PV cells, you would supply enough energy for the entire planet.

That's why people are setting up something similar right now.

Its a dumb idea. The sahara gets dark. Transmission would cost energy. Wind pumped hydro would work for us. It'd be many times cheaper for us and a lot more reliable

Amhran Nua

Elohim wrote: »

Do the Africans get a say in this? Or is it just Europeans that'll get the electricity.

The typical arrangement is that countries where the power originates and countries that cables pass through get a cut of the profits, just like oil.

CrazyRabbit

If everyone used solar panels on their houses, we'd generate 10-20% of our energy needs from them.

There's also geothermal energy which can be used in many places. And then with wind and tidal turbines, we could almost meet all our energy needs.

Then...only use very efficient electrical equipment & convert all public lighting to LED's and we're good to go!

Only problem is the initial setup costs...

Mike 1972

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Going forward where? Is Europe relocating?

Plate Tectonics ?

ejmaztec

We'd still get robbed by the ESB wherever the feckin electricity came from.

mossy2390

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

Its a dumb idea. The sahara gets dark. Transmission would cost energy. Wind pumped hydro would work for us. It'd be many times cheaper for us and a lot more reliable

well its hardly windy all the time is it? the sun in the sahara is very reliable and the energy can be stored to produce electricity over night and it will generate a hell of a lot more energy than wind turbines, in terms of producing all the energy needed this is by far the best idea

dr.bollocko

Woops. I left my xbox on all night.
And my iron. And the telly. And I've set up my fridge so the light stays on when the door is closed so the pickles don't get frightened.

gonedrinking

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

Its a dumb idea. The sahara gets dark. Transmission would cost energy. Wind pumped hydro would work for us. It'd be many times cheaper for us and a lot more reliable

The major obstacle to using renewable energy has always been the inability to produce a constant supply of electricity to consumers. However, scientists now believe that they have found a way to solve the supply and demand problem. Arnulf Jaeger-Waldau of the European Commission's Institute for Energy, speaking at the Euroscience Open Forum in Barcelona (ESOF), believes that the creation of solar farms in the Sahara desert could produce enough energy to meet all of Europe's energy needs. Power could be generated either through photovoltaic cells or by using the sun's heat to boil water and power turbines.
Scientists at the ESOF 2008 are also proposing a 'supergrid' that could transmit electricity along high voltage direct current cables and potentially allow countries to export their wind energy during periods of surplus, as well as import energy from other sources. The grid proposal, with its ability to transmit power from different sources, eliminates the criticism of the instability of renewable energy. If there is no wind or sun in Europe, there certainly will be in the Sahara and the grid could potentially be able to transmit that energy to where it is needed.
The argument for solar farms in the Sahara is solid in that photovoltaic panels there could potentially generate three times more energy than panels in northern Europe. It is estimated that capturing 0.3% of the sunlight falling on the desert would meet all of Europe's needs.
The major drawback to the proposal is the cost and the time. An investment of around €450bn would be needed and scientists estimate that it would take until 2050 before the project could produce 100 GW which is more electricity than all sources of power in the UK combined.

Son Of A Vidic

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Plate Tectonics ?

Dear God! Will Edward Cayce be proven right?

Son Of A Vidic

mossy2390 wrote: »

well its hardly windy all the time is it?

Well it is in my house..........and that's just the wife.:(

Amhran Nua

People really underestimate the sheer amount of energy that's dumped on us every single second by the sun, and by extension, the wind and tides. We are drowning in energy. It's just going to take a little time to set up the infrastructure to take advantage of it.

That is exactly what we're doing however; within 40 to 80 years, everything is going to be powered from renewable sources. Your grandchildren are going to look back on the oil, coal and gas era the same way we look at steam engines.

Contrary to what most doom prophets would have you believe, the future actually looks pretty damn good.

Scealta_saol

If it could be done then Africa could potentially rake in millions of dollars/euro (whatever currency they like) right?? then they would spend all their money on buying arms and not enough on feeding/housing/educating their people yay

could conditions be set in that they can't buy weapons with the money?

but if it could be done then it's a great idea!

RichieC

get them on the moon even better, no clouds! no eyesore.

DoneDL

Yep fit lots of solar photovoltic panels that generate reasonably free energy and then stage the world cup.

Amhran Nua

Scealta_saol wrote: »

If it could be done then Africa could potentially rake in millions of dollars/euro (whatever currency they like) right?? then they would spend all their money on buying arms and not enough on feeding/housing/educating their people yay

could conditions be set in that they can't buy weapons with the money?

I'm pretty confident those won't be long term problems - see any similarities between the maps on this page and this page? Wheels are turning, and the agenda is centuries long.

Birneybau

RichieC wrote: »

get them on the moon even better, no clouds! no eyesore.

Fantastic! Why not actually on the Sun? May need a fcuking big cable though.

c_man

So it'll supply the whole world from there? And what about transmission loses...? Back-ups?

mossy2390

Birneybau wrote: »

Fantastic! Why not actually on the Sun? May need a fcuking big cable though.

there is also plans to use satellites with huge PV cells on them to collect energy and then transfer it back to earth, PV cells are a hell of a lot more efficient in space than on earth so the satellite would be pretty small in comparison to what would be needed on earth and potently collect energy 24hours a day

of course this is till bloody expensive and a means of transferring the power back to earth still needs to be developed more using the likes of lasers or microwaves

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-based_solar_power

bonzodog2

Another problem would be the constantly shifting sand dunes, also sandstorms weathering the PV panels.

Jesus Wept

Alternative sources to oil and gas will be found/utilised. I'm not concerned.

pragmatic1

You're late. Theres already plans for this. http://inhabitat.com/worlds-largest-solar-project-sahara-desert/

ejmaztec

bonzodog2 wrote: »

Another problem would be the constantly shifting sand dunes, also sandstorms weathering the PV panels.

...not to mention the constantly changing corrupt regimes fighting for control of the system so they can have us by the balls like the oil producing nations do now:(.

orourkeda

gonedrinking wrote: »

That will provide Europe with all their energy requirements going forward. I deserve a nobel prize for this idea.

Isn't the sahara in Africa?

Will this require another invasion of Libya and neighbouring nations or is that why Sarkozy and Friends are there in the first place?

rossie1977

if something like this was viable don't you think the entire us southwest would be covered in solar panels, especially the vast areas of nevada e.g that has nothing for hundreds of miles

Mickeroo

It would definitley work, but no-one is going to shell out that kind of money to implement it when the economy is the way it is now, especially since our infrastructure relies more or less on fossil fuels at the moment. And since the oil companies control the most of the industry they won't allow it to happen, if they were open to this kind of thing we'd all be driving non-fossil fuel powered vehicles for the last 20 years.

It is a good idea though IMO, I thought it would destroy the eco-system of the desert but apparently it would only cover 90,000 square km out of 9 million so that's not going to have too much of an impact over all. Here's an article I found about the project which explains some of the concerns against the idea too.

Spunge

Or let's get really efficient and just go straight to this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyson_sphere

opinion guy

Ok who is going to dust the solar panels in the Sahara ????? I hope they have a good union rep.

ejmaztec

opinion guy wrote: »

Ok who is going to dust the solar panels in the Sahara ????? I hope they have a good union rep.

Mr Sheen.

Mickeroo

ejmaztec wrote: »

Mr Sheen.

He'll need to sober up before anyone gives him that responsibility. LOL.

3ndahalfof6

opinion guy wrote: »

Ok who is going to dust the solar panels in the Sahara ????? I hope they have a good union rep.

this problem is sorted, I am not sure if it is the venentian blind effect or just simple rotation.

amacachi

The-Rigger wrote: »

Alternative sources to oil and gas will be found/utilised. I'm not concerned.

Always makes me laugh when people worry about the future of energy. Even apart from the science the finest diplomatic and legal minds in the world are working towards solutions now and will find them.
On the business frontier I also love the "The oil companies will suppress any new ideas." Rubbish. As soon as there's a viable solution it'll be bought by existing oil and energy companies. The big companies today didn't get to the size they are by not knowing what they were doing.

Dman001

I've got a better one OP. Send a giant Solar Panel into space, place it close enough to the sun to get enough rays but, at the same time, not close enough it will sizzle up or block light to earth. Store all the energy, bring it back home and provide the world with the free energy.

oppenheimer1

PV panels aren't the solution to be used in the Sahara

Perhaps this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PS10_solar_power_tower

Zebra3

Scealta_saol wrote: »

If it could be done then Africa could potentially rake in millions of dollars/euro (whatever currency they like) right?? then they would spend all their money on buying arms and not enough on feeding/housing/educating their people yay

Then Africa will be the same as America. :pac:

Jam

bonzodog2 wrote: »

Another problem would be the constantly shifting sand dunes, also sandstorms weathering the PV panels.

I'm glad someone finally thought of this after a page and a half.

There are huge technical problems with this idea. The above, for a start, not only would they be weathered, but obscured with scratches every time there was a gust of wind. Think your favourite CD rubbed on tarmac. And like all devices, they would need replacing every few years as they degrade over time.

There's the scale of the idea, the more things there are, the more things there are to go wrong. All those particle accelerators in Europe, they have to replace components every day. If they're lucky it's just a sensor and the experiment goes on. if they're not, they have to shut down the entire machine. Apply this to a power grid in as remote as spot as the Sahara.

Transmission losses are a huge problem. Power storage. Do you know the Americans don't have powered mech. suits? Why do electric cars need recharging every day? Because battery tech isn't good enough. It sucks balls. Capacitors can't provide a steady output and both devices leak charge. Then there's the fact all these things require rare-earth elements and expensive things like platinum.

Then there are losses at every boundary. You lose energy converting the sunlight to electricity, then you lose it storing it in a battery, then you lose it transforming to HV, you lose some over the wires to heat loss, and then you lose some more transforming it back down again.

Edit: And the sandstorms. Oh Jesus the sandstorms.