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Cover the sahara desert with solar panels!

24

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,455 ✭✭✭✭Birneybau


    RichieC wrote: »
    get them on the moon even better, no clouds! no eyesore.

    Fantastic! Why not actually on the Sun? May need a fcuking big cable though.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,436 ✭✭✭c_man


    So it'll supply the whole world from there? And what about transmission loses...? Back-ups?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 122 ✭✭mossy2390


    Birneybau wrote: »
    Fantastic! Why not actually on the Sun? May need a fcuking big cable though.

    there is also plans to use satellites with huge PV cells on them to collect energy and then transfer it back to earth, PV cells are a hell of a lot more efficient in space than on earth so the satellite would be pretty small in comparison to what would be needed on earth and potently collect energy 24hours a day

    of course this is till bloody expensive and a means of transferring the power back to earth still needs to be developed more using the likes of lasers or microwaves

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-based_solar_power


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,367 ✭✭✭bonzodog2


    Another problem would be the constantly shifting sand dunes, also sandstorms weathering the PV panels.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,243 ✭✭✭✭Jesus Wept


    Alternative sources to oil and gas will be found/utilised. I'm not concerned.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,573 ✭✭✭pragmatic1


    You're late. Theres already plans for this. http://inhabitat.com/worlds-largest-solar-project-sahara-desert/


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,370 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    bonzodog2 wrote: »
    Another problem would be the constantly shifting sand dunes, also sandstorms weathering the PV panels.


    ...not to mention the constantly changing corrupt regimes fighting for control of the system so they can have us by the balls like the oil producing nations do now:(.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,916 ✭✭✭✭orourkeda


    That will provide Europe with all their energy requirements going forward. I deserve a nobel prize for this idea.

    Isn't the sahara in Africa?

    Will this require another invasion of Libya and neighbouring nations or is that why Sarkozy and Friends are there in the first place?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,541 ✭✭✭✭rossie1977


    if something like this was viable don't you think the entire us southwest would be covered in solar panels, especially the vast areas of nevada e.g that has nothing for hundreds of miles


  • Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 33,063 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    It would definitley work, but no-one is going to shell out that kind of money to implement it when the economy is the way it is now, especially since our infrastructure relies more or less on fossil fuels at the moment. And since the oil companies control the most of the industry they won't allow it to happen, if they were open to this kind of thing we'd all be driving non-fossil fuel powered vehicles for the last 20 years.

    It is a good idea though IMO, I thought it would destroy the eco-system of the desert but apparently it would only cover 90,000 square km out of 9 million so that's not going to have too much of an impact over all. Here's an article I found about the project which explains some of the concerns against the idea too.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,779 ✭✭✭Spunge


    Or let's get really efficient and just go straight to this
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyson_sphere


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,000 ✭✭✭✭opinion guy


    Ok who is going to dust the solar panels in the Sahara ????? I hope they have a good union rep.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,370 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    Ok who is going to dust the solar panels in the Sahara ????? I hope they have a good union rep.

    Mr Sheen.


  • Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 33,063 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    ejmaztec wrote: »
    Mr Sheen.

    He'll need to sober up before anyone gives him that responsibility. LOL.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,184 ✭✭✭3ndahalfof6


    Ok who is going to dust the solar panels in the Sahara ????? I hope they have a good union rep.

    this problem is sorted, I am not sure if it is the venentian blind effect or just simple rotation.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 23,315 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    The-Rigger wrote: »
    Alternative sources to oil and gas will be found/utilised. I'm not concerned.

    Always makes me laugh when people worry about the future of energy. Even apart from the science the finest diplomatic and legal minds in the world are working towards solutions now and will find them.
    On the business frontier I also love the "The oil companies will suppress any new ideas." Rubbish. As soon as there's a viable solution it'll be bought by existing oil and energy companies. The big companies today didn't get to the size they are by not knowing what they were doing.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,534 ✭✭✭Dman001


    I've got a better one OP. Send a giant Solar Panel into space, place it close enough to the sun to get enough rays but, at the same time, not close enough it will sizzle up or block light to earth. Store all the energy, bring it back home and provide the world with the free energy.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,733 ✭✭✭oppenheimer1


    PV panels aren't the solution to be used in the Sahara

    Perhaps this?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PS10_solar_power_tower


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,299 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    If it could be done then Africa could potentially rake in millions of dollars/euro (whatever currency they like) right?? then they would spend all their money on buying arms and not enough on feeding/housing/educating their people yay :(

    Then Africa will be the same as America. :pac:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 269 ✭✭Jam


    bonzodog2 wrote: »
    Another problem would be the constantly shifting sand dunes, also sandstorms weathering the PV panels.

    I'm glad someone finally thought of this after a page and a half.

    There are huge technical problems with this idea. The above, for a start, not only would they be weathered, but obscured with scratches every time there was a gust of wind. Think your favourite CD rubbed on tarmac. And like all devices, they would need replacing every few years as they degrade over time.

    There's the scale of the idea, the more things there are, the more things there are to go wrong. All those particle accelerators in Europe, they have to replace components every day. If they're lucky it's just a sensor and the experiment goes on. if they're not, they have to shut down the entire machine. Apply this to a power grid in as remote as spot as the Sahara.

    Transmission losses are a huge problem. Power storage. Do you know the Americans don't have powered mech. suits? Why do electric cars need recharging every day? Because battery tech isn't good enough. It sucks balls. Capacitors can't provide a steady output and both devices leak charge. Then there's the fact all these things require rare-earth elements and expensive things like platinum.

    Then there are losses at every boundary. You lose energy converting the sunlight to electricity, then you lose it storing it in a battery, then you lose it transforming to HV, you lose some over the wires to heat loss, and then you lose some more transforming it back down again.

    Edit: And the sandstorms. Oh Jesus the sandstorms.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,029 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    The higher the price for oil the more money will flow into alternatives sources.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,003 ✭✭✭CorkMan


    Put a windmill in Brian Cowen's back garden.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    Jam wrote: »
    I'm glad someone finally thought of this after a page and a half.

    There are huge technical problems with this idea. The above, for a start, not only would they be weathered, but obscured with scratches every time there was a gust of wind. Think your favourite CD rubbed on tarmac. And like all devices, they would need replacing every few years as they degrade over time.

    There's the scale of the idea, the more things there are, the more things there are to go wrong. All those particle accelerators in Europe, they have to replace components every day. If they're lucky it's just a sensor and the experiment goes on. if they're not, they have to shut down the entire machine. Apply this to a power grid in as remote as spot as the Sahara.

    Transmission losses are a huge problem. Power storage. Do you know the Americans don't have powered mech. suits? Why do electric cars need recharging every day? Because battery tech isn't good enough. It sucks balls. Capacitors can't provide a steady output and both devices leak charge. Then there's the fact all these things require rare-earth elements and expensive things like platinum.

    Then there are losses at every boundary. You lose energy converting the sunlight to electricity, then you lose it storing it in a battery, then you lose it transforming to HV, you lose some over the wires to heat loss, and then you lose some more transforming it back down again.

    Edit: And the sandstorms. Oh Jesus the sandstorms.
    Goodness, you'd better get on to the Desertec guys and let them know to stop what they're doing as it's clearly a waste of time, since you've spotted serious issues in the thirty seconds it took to post on boards that they hadn't imagined in all the years their organisation of scientists, researchers, engineers and financers have been working on it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    Here's some more info from the industrial arm of Desertec, Dii-Gmbh:
    Is Dii concerned only with concentrated solar power (CSP)?
    The focus of Dii's activities is generally the production and transportation of clean energy from the desert. Dii objectively analyses all technologies capable of producing and transmitting power. In very general terms, technologies offering the best cost-benefit-risk ratio will prove viable in the long term. Factors such as potential overall cost reductions, financial viability, baseload capacity, storage capacity, controllability, desert compatibility or lack of reliance on coolants, but also a low probability of error and simple operation, likewise play an important part.
    The benefits of CSP technology are found in its baseload capacity. CSP plants can basically be operated in a similar way to gas power stations. Using CSP technology, power can be generated from solar energy for up to 24 hours a day by means of thermal storage in molten salt. Power produced from solar thermal energy has an equal baseload to energy from conventional power stations. Photovoltaic (PV) cells generate power only during daylight hours, whereby the production profile in the desert regions of the MENA territory remains relatively stable. Such technology, which is easy to instal and operate, has become economically attractive in recent years due to price developments. Utilisation of North Africa's wind energy potential also plays an important role in the Desertec vision. Wind energy can often be produced locally at market prices, and the intensity of the winds in certain regions of North Africa is very considerable.

    How can concentrated solar power (CSP) plants, which rely on water, function in the desert? Can sandstorms damage solar power plants?
    A lack of water is a challenge to CSP plants. Many years of experience with solar power plants, such as in the Mojave Desert (USA), have demonstrated, however, that such systems can be cooled equally as well even if water is scarce. The steam turbine is driven by a closed water-vapour circuit, requiring only 10% of the amount of water usually needed to cool CSP plants. New technologies are also being developed which require a minimal amount of water for cleaning. Other methods entail the use of an electrostatic charge for cleaning the mirrors (and modules for PV). Solar thermal plants in the Mojave Desert have been withstanding sandstorms for more than 25 years. If the mirrors do break (approximately 0.4% per year), replacements are covered by the operating costs. Excessive wear and tear has not posed a serious problem in the region in the last 25 years. The solar collectors of a CSP plant are adjustable and can be moved into a resting position, permitting them to withstand wind speeds of 120 km/h. The closely positioned rows of collectors also protect one another from the wind. The outer rows are usually afforded extra protection by a wind fence.

    How much power can Desertec produce?
    Dii itself is not an energy producer. Companies will work with the nations in the MENA territory to develop more and more projects for producing and distributing renewable energies. To show that this is a long-term development concept, Dii has specified the following objective: By 2050, desert power should be able to cover a considerable percentage (up to 100%) of local energy need in the MENA region, and up to about 15% of such need in Europe. How the production and transmission volumes are likely to develop over time depends on many factors, primarily the infrastructure which is already in place or need to be expanded, as well as the difference between production costs and market prices. In the first 10-15 years, moreover, state support mechanisms will be pivotal in paving the way for such development. In the years thereafter, Dii anticipates that desert power will be marketable in Europe and the MENA region.

    When will solar power from the desert prove competitively viable?
    The objective when it comes to renewable energy in Europe, North Africa and the Middle East should be to become independent as soon as possible, i.e. to manage without subsidisation. In many MENA regions, wind energy has almost reached the point of profitability. Solar power is not quite so advanced, despite the excellent solar radiation conditions. The cost for photovoltaic cells and solar thermal plants are still way above the market level. We expect general market prices to rise over time (with a certain degree of volatility), however, and the costs for producing desert power to decline as the industrial learning curve progresses. Studies by the DLR in 2005 found that profitability will be achieved between 2020 and 2030. Provided investment is made in the relevant technologies, Dii predicts that the break-even point for photovoltaics will be reached before 2020 in regions with favourable climates and conditions, with that of CSP coming some years later.

    What is the cost of solar power from the desert?
    The costs of producing power from solar thermal and photovoltaic plants today, including transmission, are roughly 25 euro cents per kilowatt hour, depending on location, solar radiation and other factors. These costs are expected to decline in the next ten years towards the 10 Ct/kWh mark, i.e. they should approach the anticipated market level. Clear cost reductions are anticipated on account of economies of scale and technological advances. Economies of scale can be achieved, for instance, by the (local) mass production of components, development and creation of larger individual projects and an industrial network of suppliers. Research and development also play an important role. At present, research is concentrated on higher process temperatures, heat storage and a general increase in efficiency (enhanced efficiency).

    Is the long-distance transportation of energy (MENA -> EU) economical?
    High-voltage, direct current (HVDC) transmission lines are an established form of technology which is already used successfully in submarine cables (e.g. North Sea between Norway and the Netherlands or from Italy to Sardinia and through the Adriatic) and power lines (e.g. Congo, China, India and Brazil). Profitability is determined by the structural, long-term differences between market prices and transmission costs. Today, electrical losses in HVDC lines amount to approx. 3% per 1,000 km – the costs of production in the desert are increased by the same amount. The total transmission costs (capital, operational expenses and losses) amount to approximately 1-2 euro ct/kWh for a line extending up to 1,500 km.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 23,315 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    Jam wrote: »
    I'm glad someone finally thought of this after a page and a half.

    There are huge technical problems with this idea. The above, for a start, not only would they be weathered, but obscured with scratches every time there was a gust of wind. Think your favourite CD rubbed on tarmac. And like all devices, they would need replacing every few years as they degrade over time.

    There's the scale of the idea, the more things there are, the more things there are to go wrong. All those particle accelerators in Europe, they have to replace components every day. If they're lucky it's just a sensor and the experiment goes on. if they're not, they have to shut down the entire machine. Apply this to a power grid in as remote as spot as the Sahara.

    Transmission losses are a huge problem. Power storage. Do you know the Americans don't have powered mech. suits? Why do electric cars need recharging every day? Because battery tech isn't good enough. It sucks balls. Capacitors can't provide a steady output and both devices leak charge. Then there's the fact all these things require rare-earth elements and expensive things like platinum.

    Then there are losses at every boundary. You lose energy converting the sunlight to electricity, then you lose it storing it in a battery, then you lose it transforming to HV, you lose some over the wires to heat loss, and then you lose some more transforming it back down again.

    Edit: And the sandstorms. Oh Jesus the sandstorms.

    Storing in a battery? And aren't most of those conversions you list involved in every common form of mains electricity generation?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,949 ✭✭✭Samich


    Em the energy created would be gone by the time it reaches europe due to resistance.

    Bad Idea!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,949 ✭✭✭Samich


    also this is the way forward ;)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,466 ✭✭✭Forest Master


    Sky King wrote: »
    Well firstly, if it was a good idea it would have been done by now.

    Yeah, they said that 100 years ago too. I'm glad our species isn't depending on you for new ideas & forward thinking...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,466 ✭✭✭Forest Master


    CorkMan wrote: »
    Put a windmill in Brian Cowen's back garden.

    I'm assuming there's some lame political joke in there somewhere...


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,141 ✭✭✭Eggy Baby!


    But....wouldn't that just give all those crazy Africans too much power?


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