Son Of General Retro Discussion

johnny_ultimate

Actually, for me digital distribution was a big benefit for re-evaluating the PSP's overall success. It allowed smaller publishers to release the real gems - like Half Minute Hero or the Ys series - as affordable downloads. Sure, there were nice collector's editions, but an impulse buy for a tenner on PSN is more appealing when the coffers are limited.

Pretty much every great PSP game can be grabbed for less than a tenner these days. And many of them are truly fantastic. Depends on your fondness for Japanese RPGs, SRPGs and action games, I guess, but there's lots there.

Myrddin

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Actually, for me digital distribution was a big benefit for re-evaluating the PSP's overall success. It allowed smaller publishers to release the real gems - like Half Minute Hero or the Ys series - as affordable downloads. Sure, there were nice collector's editions, but an impulse buy for a tenner on PSN is more appealing when the coffers are limited.

Pretty much every great PSP game can be grabbed for less than a tenner these days. And many of them are truly fantastic. Depends on your fondness for Japanese RPGs, SRPGs and action games, I guess, but there's lots there.

The problem I have with Digital Distribution is the mainstream stuff is overpriced. No second hand games, so try & buy all those PSP GO classics on ebay in 20 years like we do today, no physical copies mean you won't be able to - & they'll be long withdrawn from the digital shelves by then. And there's something to be said for nice box/cover art.

Plenty of good games for the PSP, but to me, the PSP itself is the weak point.

o1s1n

The 32X and Mega CD killed consumer loyalty in the west...they were never the same after that. People didn't trust Sega hardware anymore.

I'd love to see what the gaming landscape would look like if Sega hadn't released those consoles, but instead put all of their effort into making the Saturn a beast of a 3D machine.

Myrddin

o1s1n wrote: »

The 32X and Mega CD killed consumer loyalty in the west...they were never the same after that. People didn't trust Sega hardware anymore.

I'd love to see what the gaming landscape would look like if Sega hadn't released those consoles, but instead put all of their effort into making the Saturn a beast of a 3D machine.

Is that really all it took yeah?

The 32X & Mega CD were massive mistakes...massive...but, in a bizarre way, that's kinda why I like them Abominations we were never meant to see

o1s1n

They were the beginning of the end. Couple that with the Saturn having two processors which was hard to program for, performed 2D better than 3D (and then a no 2D games policy in the west) - THEN had to compete with the PS1, chucking out polygons all over the place and you have a bad combination.

When the Dreamcast was released, everyone was just waiting for the PS2, which was due out shortly after - and had a DVD player! (Do you remember how expensive they were at the time?)

Myrddin

o1s1n wrote: »

They were the beginning of the end. Couple that with the Saturn having two processors which was hard to program for, performed 2D better than 3D (and then a no 2D games policy in the west) - THEN had to compete with the PS1, chucking out polygons all over the place and you have a bad combination.

When the Dreamcast was released, everyone was just waiting for the PS2, which was due out shortly after - and had a DVD player! (Do you remember how expensive they were at the time?)

Yeah I see, it was a combination of bad decisions & strong competition.

o1s1n

EnterNow wrote: »

Abominations we were never meant to see

Oh and that's why I love them too by the way, they're almost like weird dev prototypes which would never have left the stores. The Neptune feels like more of a proper console than the two of them.

Myrddin

o1s1n wrote: »

Oh and that's why I love them too by the way, they're almost like weird dev prototypes which would never have left the stores. The Neptune feels like more of a proper console than the two of them.

In reality, I wonder if the 32X project was shelved & they got the Neptune out in time to bridge the gap to the Saturn would it have saved them

a5y

EnterNow wrote: »

What was it, in a nutshell, that killed SEGA?

They gave us the Megadrive, The Saturn, The Dreamcast...I really would love a new console form them

I've spent some time thinking about this. TL;DR: They were a game company that was only ever consistently good at one thing: making games.

Other stuff: making and committing to decisions, structuring the company in a way that works, treating people with neither far too much nor too little respect, all that they've proved to be very hit and miss at.

Here's the longwinded justification:

1. Bad management. Incredibad management
   • The Wikipedia page on the Mega CD details how during its development the US's Sega devs had to McGuyver together something to work with and develop on because Japanese Sega gave them nothing.
   • Poor treatment of employees (at least in Japan during the MegaDrive and earlier periods, staff pay was determined by seniority rather than what they did. So if you were useless but high ranking you get crazy pay, but if you're new and just realised something incredible, despite all the risks you've taken you don't get higher pay, or promotion if above you is full of dead wood)
     • See the 2nd paragraph here. Youji Naka transferred to US Sega, but I'd bet a lot of brain drain, talent and burnout happened because of this pay scheme.
   • Management thinking too much about business and too little about whether they're treating gamers well.
     • Asian PAL MegaDrive.
     • Lets keep this a Japanese exclusive title!
       • Special mention: Lets not release the sequels abroad! Screw the foreign fanbase!
         
2. Treating third party developers and other stakeholders poorly, outright antagonising 'em, or simply ignoring them rather than supporting them
   • Again tied to 1. If US Sega had to act like that, imagine how it felt to learn that your company which made games for the MD/Genesis now has to play catch up and compete with this new Mega CD thing.
     • Result: worsening 3rd party relations. Why support Sega when Nintendo isn't pissing you off nearly so much?
   • Also breaking promises. Moving the Saturn in the US launch date screwed stores in the US out of business
     • Result: f*ck Sega. We'll support the other guys
3. Ambition mixed with a lack of any clear unified sense of vision
   • The Sega Saturn is a 2d hardware beast of hardware, but the consensus is its a total bitch to program for in 3d. It can do it (VF2) but if its that hard to do it stops being worthwhile to port a PS1 game unless its an absolutely sure seller.
     • Result: 3rd party that programmed 3d games for Saturn were the exception.
       • If Eidos hadn't made Tomb Raider originally for it I doubt it would have been ported, regardless of how successful it became.
   • Network play
     • Compare: SEGA consoles that had ahead of their time functionality that everyone knows about:
       • Sega Dreamcast
     • SEGA consoles that had ahead of their time functionality that barely anyone knows about outside the core fans:
       • PAL & NTSC Mega Drive, & Genesis; Sega Saturn, Sega Dreamcast.
     • Result: Sega didn't commit to it, a minority of their own first party games for the Mega Drive or Saturn could do anything exciting with their own dedicated network hardware, so it didn't take off.
       • Note that some NTSC-J Dreamcasts didn't even come with modems too, so even when Sega finally did decide it was time to commit there were still naysayers making decisions.
4. The MegaDrive
   • The MegaDrive was both Sega's cash cow and (later) its money pit.
     • By itself: money maker.
     • But with the 32x and Mega CD? It wasn't even clear what format Sega's own programmers should be programming on. Plus bruised 3rd party relations.
   • It also had to have an impact on their next console: The Saturn was designed originally as a conservative 2d sprites machine (with better video and sound support learned from that earlier costly CD experiment...) because they wanted to follow the MegaDrive "proven formula".
     • Fortunately later demands from staff in the arcade games division for adding hardware to support 3d arcade ports that made it able to run its must play games and maintain market share in Japan as long as it did and prevent being a total catastrophe.
5. "Japanese-ness"
   • Sega did stuff for reasons that only make sense in Japan.
     • Continuing to invest heavily in arcade games when in every other country in the world they're on a downward spiral
     • Tons and tons of games with cultural elements that won't export well, so can't hope to make as much money as more mass marketable titles.
       • Combine that with making games that could have exported well but didn't, or were handled poorly
         • WTF Shenmue voice acting.
     • No unified standards for packaging or box art.
       • Making a continent over time thinking it was getting hand-me-downs is no way to maintain a loyal customer base.
6. Lack of a unique competitive advantage
   • Sega was an order of magnitude smaller than Sony and Microsoft. Initially their reputation was enough, but the PlayStation and Xbox brands built their reputations too. So what was uniquely special about Sega then?
   • 

CiDeRmAn

o1s1n wrote: »

They were the beginning of the end. Couple that with the Saturn having two processors which was hard to program for, performed 2D better than 3D (and then a no 2D games policy in the west) - THEN had to compete with the PS1, chucking out polygons all over the place and you have a bad combination.

I was there at the time, buying imported mags like Gamepro and EGM.
The Saturn launch was much heralded, had a celebrity line up to advertise the console.
The big problem of system architecture didn't factor in until later, I mean no one expected the launch games to be stellar, yet it did launch with Virtua Fighter and Daytona, not the most good looking of games but both very playable.

No, the screw ups for Sega were the price of the machine at it's May launch would be $399 and Sony announced at the same time that the PS, launching in September 95 would be $299.
Plus, several big chains in the States were alienated when Sega left them out of the big launch, Wal Mart being one.
Sony on the other hand developed a team of reps who liased with the stores throughout the markets to ensure retailers got enough games, consoles, advised on marketing etc.

As a result of this, at launch at least, the PS was far more attractive to both the retailers and consumers.
Also, there is a chance that the Sega brand was seen as old hat, that the marketing of the PS as new and exciting, that to own a PS was to rebel against the mainstream, all served to make the Saturn even less attractive to the consumer, that certain schoolyard bragging rights quotient.

The technical issues didn't become important until later, when the PS streaked away with the likes of Colony Wars, Crash, Wipeout 2097, G-Police, Gran Turismo and the Saturn had very little reply, not until much later with Nights perhaps.
Certainly it took Sega GT on the DC to compete with GT on the PS, and the Sega game wasn't even that good!

Steve X2

Hands on with the new WiiU Pro controller.

http://www.engadget.com/2012/06/07/nintendo-wii-u-pro-controller-hands-on-video/



.

DinoRex

Hard to tell if they spoke to the fake Peter Molyneux parody twitter account or not...

http://www.shacknews.com/article/74240/peter-molyneuxs-curiosity-spawns-80000-dlc#

DinoRex

Steve SI wrote: »

Hands on with the new WiiU Pro controller.

http://www.engadget.com/2012/06/07/nintendo-wii-u-pro-controller-hands-on-video/



.

The 'x' button is in yet another location on this controller!!!

Steve X2

DinoRex wrote: »

The 'x' button is in yet another location on this controller!!!

I'm more worried about the fact it's so lightweight. I think any decent controller should have some weight to it.
Time will tell I suppose.

.

CiDeRmAn

Oh, I'm sure that'll be the easiest mod ever, popping the thing open to stick a few ounces of putty into the controller to give it more heft, could make a fortune!

a5y

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

Oh, I'm sure that'll be the easiest mod ever, popping the thing open to stick a few ounces of putty into the controller to give it more heft, could make a fortune!

Better get that putty VGA rated first to secure your investment.

Touch Fuzzy Get Dizzy

Braid, Super Meat Boy, and Lone Survivor were added to the latest Humble Indie Bundle, so if you already bought it you can get them now

Sparks43

[IMG]https://fbcdn_sphotos_d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/556676_2259105534374_314963420_n.jpg[/IMG]

Myrddin

DinoRex wrote: »

The 'x' button is in yet another location on this controller!!!

Isn't that the SNES layout?

Retr0gamer

Yep it's the classic SNES layout, i.e. the way it ****ing should be.

safetyboy

http://www.humblebundle.com/

Jack burton

Jusy bought that humble bundle, I never played Psychonauts so worth the price for me with just that one

Retr0gamer

I think Tokyo Jungle is getting a PAL PSN release. If so I'll defo be getting it!

Jack burton

The date still TBA?

johnny_ultimate

I'm short on virtual dollars so alas no Tokyo Jungle for me

Sony tend to be pretty good with at least granting their more eccentric titles a PSN release, so it's certainly a large possibility. Its budget price as well as the fact that it's a 2D platformer bodes well for PSN.

Also: I continue to be frustrated the console vs PC nonsense clogging up the games forum. Sometimes you'd swear people actually don't play games and just spend their time complaining about 'em!

Myrddin

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Also: I continue to be frustrated the console vs PC nonsense clogging up the games forum. Sometimes you'd swear people actually don't play games and just spend their time complaining about 'em!

It's so puerile isn't it. I'd consider my first choice for modern gaming as the pc, generally speaking the graphics are years ahead of the consoles, my own personal preference is to use a mouse/kb for most games, & I find it easier to 'game' that way.

But, consoles provide an experience pc's cannot - you just stick a game in & play. No fuss, no hassle, no drivers, no faffing with controls.

Both formats offer individual advantages & disadvantages. Can people not just talk about & enjoy the games themselves without having to constantly belittle each other?

johnny_ultimate

I think any sensible gamer will see the benefits and drawbacks of both. I love the ease of the console, but I also love the range of the PC (especially in terms of independent games these days).

I just like gaming, and will play what I want on whatever format I want. It just seems so futile to me spending so much time complaining when you could just get on with it. No problem having a preference, but such a militant one is only limiting yourself.

Retr0gamer

Well it's mostly caused by uninformed console only gamers I find. Some dope turns up, says how you have to pay 400 euros a year upgrading your machine, rightfully gets called a dope and then the thread goes down the drain. Would be a much more civil place if the uninformed would just shut up.

Doge

DinoRex wrote: »

This one from Platinum looks fantastic... Don't know why they didn't feature it in the conference:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGxoxdjieZs

That looks amazing! :eek:

Great to see the isometric view coming back in games.

I see this God Of War like game on a friends android phone the other day with an isometric view, controlling a guy fighting with a sword.

Looked fantastic, don't know the name of it though.

Doge

Some serious amount of TLDR posts on this thread yesterday btw! :eek: