Dublin Catholics could face church levy

Penn

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Of course Catholics should pay for the day to day expenses of their church.
I see nothing wrong with this.
If I was a member of a golf club I would only see it as fair to pay my way as a member.
Of course I could always refuse to pay and decide to leave the club.
What's the problem??

Because belonging to a Religion isn't exactly the same as joining a club. People believe that they must go to Mass every week or whatever in order to please/worship God. But to be forced to pay for it? Doubt that's really what God had in mind. "Your membership card for Christianity is due for renewal. You must submit the required fee to your local Church or St.Peter will take your name off the access list for Heaven"

People should donate money to the Church if they wish to do so, but nobody should ever be told they should donate more or even worse, be made to donate money to go to Church.

eyescreamcone

Barrington wrote: »

Because belonging to a Religion isn't exactly the same as joining a club. People believe that they must go to Mass every week or whatever in order to please/worship God. But to be forced to pay for it? Doubt that's really what God had in mind. "Your membership card for Christianity is due for renewal. You must submit the required fee to your local Church or St.Peter will take your name off the access list for Heaven"

People should donate money to the Church if they wish to do so, but nobody should ever be told they should donate more or even worse, be made to donate money to go to Church.

Belonging to a religion is EXACTLY like belonging to a club.
If the members do not pay for the 'clubs' upkeep, then who will???

When you arrive at your church someday to find that it's closed because there is no electricity etc. you will have nobody to blame except yourself if you have not helped with the upkeep.

Penn

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Belonging to a religion is EXACTLY like belonging to a club.
If the members do not pay for the 'clubs' upkeep, then who will???

When you arrive at your church someday to find that it's closed because there is no electricity etc. you will have nobody to blame except yourself if you have not helped with the upkeep.

Well, I could blame the Church for having to pay out all that compensation money to abuse victims.

I could blame the Vatican for having a metric f*cktonne of money but not helping keep these smaller churches open.

I could blame the banks and the whole recession for people having less money to donate.

I could blame science for teaching people that the Bible is just stories and never actually happened.

Or, I could blame God for, y'know, all of the above. Just a pity that by that stage, I wouldn't be able to go into his house to tell him he failed.

eyescreamcone

All true!
But if you want a church for your christening, communions, weddings and funerals as well as every sunday then you should pay for it.

Me - I wouldn't give 'em the steam off my piss as we say down here.
It's all bollix anyways!

iMax

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Belonging to a religion is EXACTLY like belonging to a club.
If the members do not pay for the 'clubs' upkeep, then who will???

When you arrive at your church someday to find that it's closed because there is no electricity etc. you will have nobody to blame except yourself if you have not helped with the upkeep.

Answer 1) So before electricity what did they do ?
Answer 2) So what they've got candles. They're big on candles.
Answer 3) Ask the vatican for a bailout, last time I checked they were fairly rolling in it.

*Disclaimer As far as I'm concerned, I'm not a member, as far as they're concerned, I am. Same with Xtravision.

eyescreamcone

If you want it to survive - put your money where your mouth is.

The Kino Cinema in Cork was famous for it's arty films. Some good, some bad.
It closed recently - everyone said "Ahh... Pity!"
Did you go much? "Very rarely!" or "once or twice".

In the real world, bills must be paid by someone.
Usually by those who avail of the services.
Money coming in must be more than money going out!!!

By the way, where do you think the Vatican gets its money???
Donations from club members maybe???

Dont be at yourself

eyescreamcone wrote: »

ay, where do you think the Vatican gets its money???
Donations from club members maybe???

The vatican fleeced the people of this country and others for hundreds of years. They plundered, pillaged and hoarded wealth extorted from those who didn't know better. Now they're sitting in their palaces on their golden thrones in their silk robes, while churches for the very people they claim to serve can't afford to stay open.

eyescreamcone

It is a corrupt club isn't it?

Kila

On the whole "it's just like a club, you should pay for the upkeep" point, I draw the following distinction. If I choose play golf, I pay the club. When I stop playing golf, I tell them I'm quitting, they cross me off the books, and I am no longer a member, so I no longer pay.

With church, I didn't have a choice about being made a member, as that decision was made by my parents. When I stopped believing, I tried to tell them I was quitting, and they told me that I couldn't quit god because he would love me anyway, and they refuse to cross me off the books.

So, if there is no clear path to leaving the church (and, since the most recent change to canon law, there isn't), then how can I opt-out of such a levy? How do they decide who to charge?

If I was to attend church regularly, and wanted to baptise my kids and marry there, and do all of that, I'd expect to pay toward the upkeep, but I don't want that. I don't want to be part of the faith, or the church, or anything related to it. If they won't let me leave, then they surely can't make me pay?

Cool Mo D

Kila wrote: »

On the whole "it's just like a club, you should pay for the upkeep" point, I draw the following distinction. If I choose play golf, I pay the club. When I stop playing golf, I tell them I'm quitting, they cross me off the books, and I am no longer a member, so I no longer pay.

With church, I didn't have a choice about being made a member, as that decision was made by my parents. When I stopped believing, I tried to tell them I was quitting, and they told me that I couldn't quit god because he would love me anyway, and they refuse to cross me off the books.

So, if there is no clear path to leaving the church (and, since the most recent change to canon law, there isn't), then how can I opt-out of such a levy? How do they decide who to charge?

If I was to attend church regularly, and wanted to baptise my kids and marry there, and do all of that, I'd expect to pay toward the upkeep, but I don't want that. I don't want to be part of the faith, or the church, or anything related to it. If they won't let me leave, then they surely can't make me pay?

You stop being part of the church as soon as you decide yourself. There is no need to perform any official action. How do you think they could possibly make you pay? Just because the church thinks you are a member, doesn't mean you are.

Kila

@ Cool Mo D, I don't think they could make me pay, but technically, you don't stop being a part of the church simply by deciding. The church still counts you as one of their own, and recent responses from various church officials have basically said that it doesn't matter if you don't believe, if you were baptised, you're part of the church.

I don't want to keep linking my blog like a total spammer, so I'm sorry for this, but there's a letter from Assistant Chancellor Rev. Fintan Gavin, D.C.L of the Archdiocese of Dublin that refers to the canon law with regard to defections, leaving the church, etc. that's quoted there which is why I'm saying what I am (i.e. that I can't bloody leave because they won't let me! <grin>): http://www.zenbuffy.com/2011/03/not-religious-then-say-so/

eyescreamcone

Canon Law is like the rules at the local golf club
No jeans in the bar etc.

I was having a look around a few diocese websites to see if they had finance details but the most I could find was committee details.

My parents pay dues at four different times of the year - these are named envelopes delivered to each household by local god botherers and collected at mass. Does this happen everywhere? I can imagine it is more difficult in an urban area than in the country.

In the past the parish priest used to call out how much each family had given from the altar.

If if ever move back home I will have to figure out a way to get off this list without annoying the local god botherer - I have my eye on some of their land.

Paulownia

They should poll their members to find out what needs to be changed to get the congregations back in the churches. If the church was of relevance to the people they would attend. The ten o clockers are a dying breed and what happens when they are gone. I think as well that in the past there were younger people involved and the fundraising was more dynamic. Parish social events were eagerly looked forward to but now people would shun them. Women priests would be a help and more youth involvement. God knows we could do with a bit of relevant pastoral care.

28064212

Kila wrote: »

On the whole "it's just like a club, you should pay for the upkeep" point, I draw the following distinction. If I choose play golf, I pay the club. When I stop playing golf, I tell them I'm quitting, they cross me off the books, and I am no longer a member, so I no longer pay.

With church, I didn't have a choice about being made a member, as that decision was made by my parents. When I stopped believing, I tried to tell them I was quitting, and they told me that I couldn't quit god because he would love me anyway, and they refuse to cross me off the books.

Now imagine a golf-club that only records the date you joined. You can become a non-paying member (where you don't get the benefits of a paying member), but they don't cross you off the books. If you want to rejoin, your old record will be reactivated. Same thing, and there's no requirement on the golf-club to remove the "date you joined" from their books

Solair

All they can do is ask people to contribute, they cannot impose a levy other than by denying people access to church facilities if they don't pay.

So, basically you can tell them to go swing for it if they come looking for cash.

If you want to support them financially, that's up to you.

However, the word 'levy' is totally inappropriate. They can't levy anyone!

Lawrence1895

catbear wrote: »

In states of Germany your tithe can come out of your pay packet if you tick that you are a member of the RCC. The tax office collects it for the RCC and other churches. If you don't tick the box then you don't get to get married/baptised etc.....

It would be interesting how many would tick the box if it were so here.

You can also choose to leave the church with 14 years of age in Germany. Saves you from loads of hassle in your life, I guess

Arcus Arrow

It's also possible that "leaking" a document making out the dioceses is on the verge of bankruptcy will put victims off making claims. It could also lead a solicitor to come to the conclusion that it's not worth taking on such cases on the basis you can't get blood out of a stone.


Another leaked document claims the church is planning to make mass more family friendly by laying on entertainment.

Paulownia

it is , however worth bearing in mind that the church also does a great deal of good in the world and with all the bad press we tend to forget that. I am reading a life of Frank Duff at the moment and it is amazing what that man did in the slums of Dublin for the poor and marginalised. By the way I am not even a catholic before someone jumps on me for being an apologist for the church!

BostonB

Local church gives a breakdown of their accounts on the newsletter.

But in general a levy is right up there for a Darwin Award.

Paulownia

Paulownia wrote: »

it is , however worth bearing in mind that the church also does a great deal of good in the world and with all the bad press we tend to forget that. I am reading a life of Frank Duff at the moment and it is amazing what that man did in the slums of Dublin for the poor and marginalised. By the way I am not even a catholic before someone jumps on me for being an apologist for the church!

Had a quick google of the man.
From wikipedia with very selective quoting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Duff_(religious_worker)

Duff, having concern for the people he saw as materially and spiritually deprived, got the idea to picket Protestant soup kitchens and to set up rival Catholic soup kitchens instead.

Amazing work for the slums indeed - picketing soup kitchens.

eyescreamcone

Get a life will you Paulownia!

The RCC is still anti-gay, anti-gay marriage, anti-contraception, anti-divorce, anti-abortion, anti-women etc

It's still full of child rapists and their sympathisers.

Add your own descriptions at will...

Paulownia

I find it is not always a good idea to depend on wikipedia for information, although it is very fashionable. Try the biog by Bernadette Kennedy!

Paulownia

:P:P:P:P:P

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Get a life will you.

The RCC is still anti-gay, anti-gay marriage, anti-contraception, anti-divorce, anti-abortion, anti-women etc

It's still full of child rapists and their sympathisers.

Add your own descriptions at will...

So are a lot of other organisations!!!!

BostonB

Paulownia wrote: »

:P:P:P:P:P

So are a lot of other organisations!!!!

They can get their own thread.

eyescreamcone

Paulownia wrote: »

:P:P:P:P:P

So are a lot of other organisations!!!!

Maybe...like who?

We could hardly describe those other organisations as doing "a great deal of good in the world" though, could we?

MagicMarker

Paulownia wrote: »

:P:P:P:P:P

So are a lot of other organisations!!!!

Can you name the other organizations that are 'anti-gay, anti-gay marriage, anti-contraception, anti-divorce, anti-abortion, anti-women and full of child rapists' that isn't based on religion?

Dades

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Get a life will you Paulownia!

etc.

That's not really a constructive...
Try harder, thanks.

Penn

MagicMarker wrote: »

Can you name the other organizations that are 'anti-gay, anti-gay marriage, anti-contraception, anti-divorce, anti-abortion, anti-women and full of child rapists' that isn't based on religion?

Is this a trick question?

Geekness1234

sell off a church or two.I know I wouldn't care.