Dublin Catholics could face church levy

Knasher

Saw this on the journal:

THE CATHOLIC CHURCH in Dublin is on the brink of ‘financial collapse’ – and may be forced to place a parish-based levy on Catholic families in order to stay alive, according to leaked internal documents published today.

A consultation document from the Archdiocese of Dublin’s Council of Priests, given to the Irish Catholic newspaper and published today, says that many of the Archdiocese’s parishes are close to collapse.

The substantial cash reserves built up by the parishes over the last number of decades have all been diminished by declining Massgoing attendances, and other factors relating to the economic downturn.

RTÉ News, reporting the Irish Catholic’s story, said that compensation settlements reached by by the church had also caused a significant worsening in its financial standing.

Priests have been asked to consider the document and to respond to it at a meeting next month.

The Irish Catholic’s website was offline at the time of publication.

http://www.thejournal.ie/dublin-catholics-could-face-church-levy-as-archdiocese-faces-financial-collapse-203902-Aug2011/

If it comes to pass it will be interesting to see how many remain a la carte catholics.

mikemac

As I understand it used to be the parish collections stayed in the parish
But then you have large/small and rich/poor parishes.
So the money goes to diocese who split it out fairly

I can't see a levy.
But will we see the rural areas supporting the parishes of Dublin?

Guess the Dubs can't complain they are constantly subsidizing rural Ireland anymore

MagicMarker

Not that it would ever happen, but how on earth would they go about setting up a parish based levy?

catbear

In states of Germany your tithe can come out of your pay packet if you tick that you are a member of the RCC. The tax office collects it for the RCC and other churches. If you don't tick the box then you don't get to get married/baptised etc.....

It would be interesting how many would tick the box if it were so here.

magicbastarder

one interesting outcome of this is that (speculation on my part) you may not be allowed have your child baptised without paying this levy - which would be an interesting turn of affairs for people who want to get their kids into a catholic school.
maybe they'd even rule that if you haven't paid this levy, they won't consider your child a practicing catholic?

Knasher

MagicMarker wrote: »

Not that it would ever happen, but how on earth would they go about setting up a parish based levy?

I was just wondering the same thing actually. When I read the article, my initial thought was that it was the German church tax, but obviously they don't have the power to mandate something like that. And if it was just another collection in church, then they would just call it that, plus that wouldn't really solve their problem as people would probably just split the same amount over all the collections.

Maybe they could make the parishes subscription based and refuse weddings and stuff for people who haven't subscribed. :P

Dades

Knasher wrote: »

Maybe they could make the parishes subscription based and refuse weddings and stuff for people who haven't subscribed. :P

Or charge for weddings etc, which is was what was suggested on Newstalk earlier.

I think it's brilliant. Let them try and pay their own way by charging the people they failed, and see what happens.

heebusjeebus

Why cant the church just ask for a big wad of cash for any baptisms, communions, weddings, funerals etc. "Proper" Catholics wont mind paying and us normal folk wont have to bother. It will become more socially acceptable not to get married in a church or get your kids baptized.
Let the real Catholics celebrate their faith and let the rest of us live in peace without the lectures.

Penn

"I know our institution has failed you, and I know that church income has fallen because of these failings, the recession, and many people losing their faith... But if you donate more money to the church, we promise not to change a damn thing"

Dont be at yourself

Got any spare change?

papu

Redic , the Church is such a vastly Rich empire.

amacachi

Would be wonderful to see just how many Catholics there actually are in this country once they have to pay even a nominal charge.

seamus

Fingers crossed that they introduce this. *please* *please* *please* *please* *please* *please*

Penn

heebusjeebus

heebusjeebus wrote: »

Why cant the church just ask for a big wad of cash for any baptisms, communions, weddings, funerals etc. "Proper" Catholics wont mind paying and us normal folk wont have to bother. It will become more socially acceptable not to get married in a church or get your kids baptized.
Let the real Catholics celebrate their faith and let the rest of us live in peace without the lectures.

I thought they did that already

smokingman

This would be fantastic but I wish they brought it in before the census.

Another good idea is charge those who checked "catholic" in the census to cover the popes upcoming visit.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

bluewolf wrote: »

I thought they did that already

they do.. a bit anyway

i was googling the church of a friends upcoming wedding to see where i was, and it costs 300 euro to have the wedding there

also for some reason wedding party has to supply the flowers and are then asked to leave them behind inthe church

something shady going on there

seamus

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

i was googling the church of a friends upcoming wedding to see where i was, and it costs 300 euro to have the wedding there

This is often typical where the church is popular or prestigious, like Gouganbarra or Trinity chapel. Pays for the higher maintenance cost when there are two weddings every weekend.

also for some reason wedding party has to supply the flowers and are then asked to leave them behind inthe church

"A gift for the virgin Mary". I'm deadly serious. In reality the priest likely brings them home to his Mammy.

stimpson

seamus wrote: »

Fingers crossed that they introduce this. *please* *please* *please* *please* *please* *please*

That sounds suspiciously like a prayer.

seamus

I'll get in the sack...

Spacedog

Maybe they should charge all of us to cover their child sexual abuse limited financial liability insurance agreement with the Irish Government...

...oh wait.

alan85

So the church that, due to its own negligence, is liable to pay compensation to its abuse victims and that has lost money investing in Irish banking shares now expects parishioners to carry the burden through a levy. Did the parishioners carry out the abuse or decide to invest money in banks? How about looking to the top brass in the Vatican (who invariably set the trend for such actions) for help instead? Who do they think they are - a pseudo-government that can tax spirituality? Expect to see raised wedding and funeral 'donations' next...

W*nkers!

Kila

I think that what I find most annoying about this is that the church won't let me be not Catholic. When hundreds of people started defecting, using sites like CountMeOut.ie, they rewrote canon law to remove the ability to defect. Since I was baptised at birth (when I was, obviously, not in a position to object), I'm basically stuck with Catholicism like a blood stain that won't wash out. So, in summary, if you're not going to let me leave your church, then you can get stuffed if you think I'm paying for it too.

magicbastarder

Kila wrote: »

I'm basically stuck with Catholicism
...
then you can get stuffed if you think I'm paying for it too.

no you're not.
and they can't make you pay.

Sarky

Reinstate indulgences, that'll sort it out. Nothing more profitable than the pope saying you can buy your way into heaven.

Robert ninja

God needs your money.

Zillah

Haha their religion is dying.

Wonderful. I hope it hurts. So long fellas, you die as you lived; stuck up your own arses.

Solair

How can they even call it a "levy"!?
Does it still think it has tax raising power?
All they can do is very humbly ask its parishioners to contribute.
This will go down like a lead balloon. In the current climate, they'll be laughed out of town.

The Rook

I'm Catholic, but I wouldn't pay this levy and think it's an insult that I might be asked to pay it.

"Ooops, sorry, we messed around with kids and have to pay compensation and then we messed up our financial investments, will you fix it up for us by paying a levy?"...... Eh no, no I won't, no more than the Catholic Church (the Institution) would give me lots of free money if I was in negative equity on my house and I had to pay compensation to someone for whatever reason.....

eyescreamcone

Of course Catholics should pay for the day to day expenses of their church.
I see nothing wrong with this.
If I was a member of a golf club I would only see it as fair to pay my way as a member.
Of course I could always refuse to pay and decide to leave the club.
What's the problem??

MagicMarker

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Of course Catholics should pay for the day to day expenses of their church.
I see nothing wrong with this.
If I was a member of a golf club I would only see it as fair to pay my way as a member.
Of course I could always refuse to pay and decide to leave the club.
What's the problem??

There's no problem if people want to pay it, but it's when people don't want to pay it it becomes a problem.

Now imagine that you didn't play golf, you just liked it, believed in it and watched it on tv now and again, would you still pay your membership?

In fact, this is all rather pointless as they can't make anyone pay it anyway!

Penn

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Of course Catholics should pay for the day to day expenses of their church.
I see nothing wrong with this.
If I was a member of a golf club I would only see it as fair to pay my way as a member.
Of course I could always refuse to pay and decide to leave the club.
What's the problem??

Because belonging to a Religion isn't exactly the same as joining a club. People believe that they must go to Mass every week or whatever in order to please/worship God. But to be forced to pay for it? Doubt that's really what God had in mind. "Your membership card for Christianity is due for renewal. You must submit the required fee to your local Church or St.Peter will take your name off the access list for Heaven"

People should donate money to the Church if they wish to do so, but nobody should ever be told they should donate more or even worse, be made to donate money to go to Church.

eyescreamcone

Barrington wrote: »

Because belonging to a Religion isn't exactly the same as joining a club. People believe that they must go to Mass every week or whatever in order to please/worship God. But to be forced to pay for it? Doubt that's really what God had in mind. "Your membership card for Christianity is due for renewal. You must submit the required fee to your local Church or St.Peter will take your name off the access list for Heaven"

People should donate money to the Church if they wish to do so, but nobody should ever be told they should donate more or even worse, be made to donate money to go to Church.

Belonging to a religion is EXACTLY like belonging to a club.
If the members do not pay for the 'clubs' upkeep, then who will???

When you arrive at your church someday to find that it's closed because there is no electricity etc. you will have nobody to blame except yourself if you have not helped with the upkeep.

Penn

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Belonging to a religion is EXACTLY like belonging to a club.
If the members do not pay for the 'clubs' upkeep, then who will???

When you arrive at your church someday to find that it's closed because there is no electricity etc. you will have nobody to blame except yourself if you have not helped with the upkeep.

Well, I could blame the Church for having to pay out all that compensation money to abuse victims.

I could blame the Vatican for having a metric f*cktonne of money but not helping keep these smaller churches open.

I could blame the banks and the whole recession for people having less money to donate.

I could blame science for teaching people that the Bible is just stories and never actually happened.

Or, I could blame God for, y'know, all of the above. Just a pity that by that stage, I wouldn't be able to go into his house to tell him he failed.

eyescreamcone

All true!
But if you want a church for your christening, communions, weddings and funerals as well as every sunday then you should pay for it.

Me - I wouldn't give 'em the steam off my piss as we say down here.
It's all bollix anyways!

iMax

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Belonging to a religion is EXACTLY like belonging to a club.
If the members do not pay for the 'clubs' upkeep, then who will???

When you arrive at your church someday to find that it's closed because there is no electricity etc. you will have nobody to blame except yourself if you have not helped with the upkeep.

Answer 1) So before electricity what did they do ?
Answer 2) So what they've got candles. They're big on candles.
Answer 3) Ask the vatican for a bailout, last time I checked they were fairly rolling in it.

*Disclaimer As far as I'm concerned, I'm not a member, as far as they're concerned, I am. Same with Xtravision.

eyescreamcone

If you want it to survive - put your money where your mouth is.

The Kino Cinema in Cork was famous for it's arty films. Some good, some bad.
It closed recently - everyone said "Ahh... Pity!"
Did you go much? "Very rarely!" or "once or twice".

In the real world, bills must be paid by someone.
Usually by those who avail of the services.
Money coming in must be more than money going out!!!

By the way, where do you think the Vatican gets its money???
Donations from club members maybe???

Dont be at yourself

eyescreamcone wrote: »

ay, where do you think the Vatican gets its money???
Donations from club members maybe???

The vatican fleeced the people of this country and others for hundreds of years. They plundered, pillaged and hoarded wealth extorted from those who didn't know better. Now they're sitting in their palaces on their golden thrones in their silk robes, while churches for the very people they claim to serve can't afford to stay open.

eyescreamcone

It is a corrupt club isn't it?

Kila

On the whole "it's just like a club, you should pay for the upkeep" point, I draw the following distinction. If I choose play golf, I pay the club. When I stop playing golf, I tell them I'm quitting, they cross me off the books, and I am no longer a member, so I no longer pay.

With church, I didn't have a choice about being made a member, as that decision was made by my parents. When I stopped believing, I tried to tell them I was quitting, and they told me that I couldn't quit god because he would love me anyway, and they refuse to cross me off the books.

So, if there is no clear path to leaving the church (and, since the most recent change to canon law, there isn't), then how can I opt-out of such a levy? How do they decide who to charge?

If I was to attend church regularly, and wanted to baptise my kids and marry there, and do all of that, I'd expect to pay toward the upkeep, but I don't want that. I don't want to be part of the faith, or the church, or anything related to it. If they won't let me leave, then they surely can't make me pay?

Cool Mo D

Kila wrote: »

On the whole "it's just like a club, you should pay for the upkeep" point, I draw the following distinction. If I choose play golf, I pay the club. When I stop playing golf, I tell them I'm quitting, they cross me off the books, and I am no longer a member, so I no longer pay.

With church, I didn't have a choice about being made a member, as that decision was made by my parents. When I stopped believing, I tried to tell them I was quitting, and they told me that I couldn't quit god because he would love me anyway, and they refuse to cross me off the books.

So, if there is no clear path to leaving the church (and, since the most recent change to canon law, there isn't), then how can I opt-out of such a levy? How do they decide who to charge?

If I was to attend church regularly, and wanted to baptise my kids and marry there, and do all of that, I'd expect to pay toward the upkeep, but I don't want that. I don't want to be part of the faith, or the church, or anything related to it. If they won't let me leave, then they surely can't make me pay?

You stop being part of the church as soon as you decide yourself. There is no need to perform any official action. How do you think they could possibly make you pay? Just because the church thinks you are a member, doesn't mean you are.

Kila

@ Cool Mo D, I don't think they could make me pay, but technically, you don't stop being a part of the church simply by deciding. The church still counts you as one of their own, and recent responses from various church officials have basically said that it doesn't matter if you don't believe, if you were baptised, you're part of the church.

I don't want to keep linking my blog like a total spammer, so I'm sorry for this, but there's a letter from Assistant Chancellor Rev. Fintan Gavin, D.C.L of the Archdiocese of Dublin that refers to the canon law with regard to defections, leaving the church, etc. that's quoted there which is why I'm saying what I am (i.e. that I can't bloody leave because they won't let me! <grin>): http://www.zenbuffy.com/2011/03/not-religious-then-say-so/

eyescreamcone

Canon Law is like the rules at the local golf club
No jeans in the bar etc.

I was having a look around a few diocese websites to see if they had finance details but the most I could find was committee details.

My parents pay dues at four different times of the year - these are named envelopes delivered to each household by local god botherers and collected at mass. Does this happen everywhere? I can imagine it is more difficult in an urban area than in the country.

In the past the parish priest used to call out how much each family had given from the altar.

If if ever move back home I will have to figure out a way to get off this list without annoying the local god botherer - I have my eye on some of their land.

Paulownia

They should poll their members to find out what needs to be changed to get the congregations back in the churches. If the church was of relevance to the people they would attend. The ten o clockers are a dying breed and what happens when they are gone. I think as well that in the past there were younger people involved and the fundraising was more dynamic. Parish social events were eagerly looked forward to but now people would shun them. Women priests would be a help and more youth involvement. God knows we could do with a bit of relevant pastoral care.

28064212

Kila wrote: »

On the whole "it's just like a club, you should pay for the upkeep" point, I draw the following distinction. If I choose play golf, I pay the club. When I stop playing golf, I tell them I'm quitting, they cross me off the books, and I am no longer a member, so I no longer pay.

With church, I didn't have a choice about being made a member, as that decision was made by my parents. When I stopped believing, I tried to tell them I was quitting, and they told me that I couldn't quit god because he would love me anyway, and they refuse to cross me off the books.

Now imagine a golf-club that only records the date you joined. You can become a non-paying member (where you don't get the benefits of a paying member), but they don't cross you off the books. If you want to rejoin, your old record will be reactivated. Same thing, and there's no requirement on the golf-club to remove the "date you joined" from their books

Solair

All they can do is ask people to contribute, they cannot impose a levy other than by denying people access to church facilities if they don't pay.

So, basically you can tell them to go swing for it if they come looking for cash.

If you want to support them financially, that's up to you.

However, the word 'levy' is totally inappropriate. They can't levy anyone!

Lawrence1895

catbear wrote: »

In states of Germany your tithe can come out of your pay packet if you tick that you are a member of the RCC. The tax office collects it for the RCC and other churches. If you don't tick the box then you don't get to get married/baptised etc.....

It would be interesting how many would tick the box if it were so here.

You can also choose to leave the church with 14 years of age in Germany. Saves you from loads of hassle in your life, I guess

Arcus Arrow

It's also possible that "leaking" a document making out the dioceses is on the verge of bankruptcy will put victims off making claims. It could also lead a solicitor to come to the conclusion that it's not worth taking on such cases on the basis you can't get blood out of a stone.


Another leaked document claims the church is planning to make mass more family friendly by laying on entertainment.

Paulownia

it is , however worth bearing in mind that the church also does a great deal of good in the world and with all the bad press we tend to forget that. I am reading a life of Frank Duff at the moment and it is amazing what that man did in the slums of Dublin for the poor and marginalised. By the way I am not even a catholic before someone jumps on me for being an apologist for the church!

BostonB

Local church gives a breakdown of their accounts on the newsletter.

But in general a levy is right up there for a Darwin Award.