Denver Broncos Thread

spiralism

Chucky the tree wrote: »

He didn't show anything differeny last week. The only difference between this week and last week is his first read was open last week while this weeking Bill and the Pats weren't as cocky/stupid as the steelers. Last week with his 47% completiong wasn't a huge improvement on his 48% game against the Dolphins. The only difference is Steelers decided to go for single coverage on the outside with no safety help for some bizarre reason and while doing that Gay decided to make some extremely poor decisions while in coverage.


As I said when his first read isn't on he crumbles badly. Also against the steelers they allowed him out of the pocket easily while the Pats made sure to keep him contained. As I said I've little improvement in what it takes to be a decent starting QB in the nfl. Can't make reads, can't make decisions quickly, poor footwork, can't throw accurately enough, isn't a great decision maker. Doesn't really bode well for him.



The only improvement I saw is playing regularly and getting better timing down with his team mate really. Haven't seen big improvements in all the things I listed for Tebow.

He's only played a year's worth of games. One year ago he could barely hit the broadside of a barn, now he can carve open the pittsburgh steelers on wildcard weekend.

In the miami, san diego games etc, he was missing open receivers by ten yards and looked lost at times, he's far more poised now. His footwork will never be up to scratch but then again, Big Ben is a lot like that too, always throwing on the run and his back foot. As for accuracy, he's gone from sailing balls ten yards away from open receivers to delivering perfect strikes to royal and thomas a number of times in the Pittsburgh match. He'll come around on the decision making and reads, i actually think they've vastly improved from early on as well. A full offseason of work with additions to the team and we could be seeing a different player altogether

Chucky the tree

spiralism wrote: »

He's only played a year's worth of games. One year ago he could barely hit the broadside of a barn, now he can carve open the pittsburgh steelers on wildcard weekend.

In the miami, san diego games etc, he was missing open receivers by ten yards and looked lost at times, he's far more poised now. His footwork will never be up to scratch but then again, Big Ben is a lot like that too, always throwing on the run and his back foot. As for accuracy, he's gone from sailing balls ten yards away from open receivers to delivering perfect strikes to royal and thomas a number of times in the Pittsburgh match. He'll come around on the decision making and reads, i actually think they've vastly improved from early on as well. A full offseason of work with additions to the team and we could be seeing a different player altogether

lol, now I have to ask what games you have been watching.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/auto/09000d5d81d08173/WK-15-Can-t-Miss-Play-Lloyd-Christmas-special

http://www.nfl.com/videos/auto/09000d5d81d3841c/Tebow-goes-deep-to-Gaffney

What makes those two plays he made last year any different to him "carving" up the steelers D and the throws he made to Thomas?


Huh? Big Bens footwork is excellent, his ability to side step or quickly step out of the way of the rush is one of the most impressive in the league all the while he can look down the field and quickly re-set himself and make a throw. Tebow looks lost, he tucks the ball, then runs around in circle behind the line all while not looking down the field. As I said he's shown little improvement, he could always fling the ball down the field when it was his first read, outside of that he isn't much use at all.

spiralism

Chucky the tree wrote: »

lol, now I have to ask what games you have been watching.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/auto/09000d5d81d08173/WK-15-Can-t-Miss-Play-Lloyd-Christmas-special

http://www.nfl.com/videos/auto/09000d5d81d3841c/Tebow-goes-deep-to-Gaffney

What makes those two plays he made last year any different to him "carving" up the steelers D and the throws he made to Thomas?


Huh? Big Bens footwork is excellent, his ability to side step or quickly step out of the way of the rush is one of the most impressive in the league all the while he can look down the field and quickly re-set himself and make a throw. Tebow looks lost, he tucks the ball, then runs around in circle behind the line all while not looking down the field. As I said he's shown little improvement, he could always fling the ball down the field when it was his first read, outside of that he isn't much use at all.

The Steelers D is a lot better than last year's Houston and Oakland defences. You're kinda missing my point though, those throws were there sporadically from the off but they were a rarity and were interspersed among a shower of complete "lol" throws where he'd misfire horribly, throwing a pick or missing open players for example. He is getting more successful in those plays of late, his completion percentage in games has been largely climbing as he's went along, as well as his yardage totals while his TD/INT ratio remains healthy. He can most certainly be quite successful in the right team, look at Alex Smith and Joe Flacco a game away from the Superbowl for example.

But its the same with Tebow, he can avoid or sidestep the rush and reset himself, he's not near as proficient obviously but is damn good at it. Look at the 3rd and 12 where he hits Thomas on a perfect stike for 50 yards after scrambling and resetting. For all that talk of Tebow being unable to do anything but run around behind the LOS and misfire, look to the likes of that completion against Pittsburgh and the Thomas TD against Minnesota, as well as numerous others over the season

Chucky the tree

spiralism wrote: »

The Steelers D is a lot better than last year's Houston and Oakland defences. You're kinda missing my point though, those throws were there sporadically from the off but they were a rarity and were interspersed among a shower of complete "lol" throws where he'd misfire horribly, throwing a pick or missing open players for example. He is getting more successful in those plays of late, his completion percentage in games has been largely climbing as he's went along, as well as his yardage totals while his TD/INT ratio remains healthy. He can most certainly be quite successful in the right team, look at Alex Smith and Joe Flacco a game away from the Superbowl for example.

But its the same with Tebow, he can avoid or sidestep the rush and reset himself, he's not near as proficient obviously but is damn good at it. Look at the 3rd and 12 where he hits Thomas on a perfect stike for 50 yards after scrambling and resetting. For all that talk of Tebow being unable to do anything but run around behind the LOS and misfire, look to the likes of that completion against Pittsburgh and the Thomas TD against Minnesota, as well as numerous others over the season

His throws against Steelers were sporadic aswell, that's why he had a worse completion % against than the dolphins despite all that extra time playing. You give him the deep throw he has a chance to make it, take it away and he's in trouble. For whatever reason Steelers decided to give it to him numerous times and didn't try to stop it. He's completetion % hasn't been climbing really, it peaked in weak 13 against Viking with 66% then fell to 52,50,44, 27. Again his TD and Int ratio in the last 4 games was 2 TD and 5 Ints, hardly improving.

I've never seen him re-set instead the pocket, 10 yards out of it yea after he tucked the ball and ran around with it. Problem is while every so often he'll hit like he did against the steelers most of the time he'll miss or been sacked.

Johnny_Fontane

The great thing about this is that debate is now pointless to have it until September.

One thing is pretty much guaranteed, he'll start next year, he'll have a full off season to practice and we can start this up again then!

The guy has proved himself though in my mind by winning those tight games. I think I won't be the only person to be excited to see how he fares next year.

He does need help though, his wr's being fit and getting separation the odd time might help!

I think for all the talk on this thread, tebow has proved that he definitely has something, to be able to play at this level

vetinari

Chucky, I admire your devotion to your argument even when the facts are letting you down

In a run, run, throw on third down offense, your completion percentage will take a hit.
It's not the West Coast Offence that they're running. Tebow has some very good mid to long throws in the Steelers game. In the Patriots game, he played poorly but his Offensive line had a shocker as well.

There was a few plays, where the Patriots brought edge pressure and he stepped up in the pocket, something which all QBs are trained to do and he was sacked straight away. Those types of sacks would reduce any QB to mediocre status.

He'll definitely be starter next year. He's undeniably had a great year for his first season as a starter.

Chucky the tree

vetinari wrote: »

Chucky, I admire your devotion to your argument even when the facts are letting you down

In a run, run, throw on third down offense, your completion percentage will take a hit.
It's not the West Coast Offence that they're running. Tebow has some very good mid to long throws in the Steelers game. In the Patriots game, he played poorly but his Offensive line had a shocker as well.

There was a few plays, where the Patriots brought edge pressure and he stepped up in the pocket, something which all QBs are trained to do and he was sacked straight away. Those types of sacks would reduce any QB to mediocre status.

He'll definitely be starter next year. He's undeniably had a great year for his first season as a starter.

facts are letting me down? :pac: If anything facts are backing me up. Little improvement in his completion %, worsening TD/Int ratio and worse QB rating all point to him not improving much if at all over the course of the year.

me-skywalker

vetinari wrote: »

He'll definitely be starter next year. He's The team's undeniably had a great year for his first season as a starter.

Fixed your post.

eagle eye

Chucky the tree wrote: »

facts are letting me down? :pac: If anything facts are backing me up. Little improvement in his completion %, worsening TD/Int ratio and worse QB rating all point to him not improving much if at all over the course of the year.

The average completion % against the Steelers this season was a measly 56.77% and a QB rating of 75.5. Tebow was 47.6% with a QB rating of 125.6. I think that shows that Tebow played well against the Steelers and did improve even if his completion % was below average when you consider that one drop if caught put him above the average. I noticed a huge improvement in his footwork in that game. He stayed in the pocket more often than he has in the past(which wouldn't be hard) but he looked a lot better to me.
As said above we will get to start this all over again in September when I expect to see a huge improvement.

Chucky the tree

eagle eye wrote: »

The average completion % against the Steelers this season was a measly 56.77% and a QB rating of 75.5. Tebow was 47.6% with a QB rating of 125.6. I think that shows that Tebow played well against the Steelers and did improve even if his completion % was below average when you consider that one drop if caught put him above the average. I noticed a huge improvement in his footwork in that game. He stayed in the pocket more often than he has in the past(which wouldn't be hard) but he looked a lot better to me.
As said above we will get to start this all over again in September when I expect to see a huge improvement.

I didn't notice much improvement in the steelers game, just poor defense play. Just wondering did you notice these great improvments against the patsx2, chiefs and bills? His stats for the last 4 games of the season

Bears - 52%, 236 yards, 5.9avg, 1 TD, 1 Int, 1 fumble
Pats - 50%, 194 yards, 8.8 avg, 0 Td, 0 Int, 1 fumble
Bills - 45%, 185, 6.4avg, 1 TD, 3 Ints, 1 fumble
Chiefs - 27%, 60 yards, 2.7avg, 0 TD, 1 Int, 1 fumble

2 TDs and 9 turnovers, ouch.

#justimproving.

eagle eye

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I didn't notice much improvement in the steelers game, just poor defense play.

So you are clearly stating here that you seen no improvement in his footwork in the Steelers game?

Stev_o

eagle eye wrote: »

So you are clearly stating here that you seen no improvement in his footwork in the Steelers game?

But what difference does it make if his foot work was awful the next week against the Pats? That's not improvement that's inconsistency.

eagle eye

Stev_o wrote: »

But what difference does it make if his foot work was awful the next week against the Pats? That's not improvement that's inconsistency.

Go on then, tell me about his footwork against the Patriots.

Chucky the tree

eagle eye wrote: »

So you are clearly stating here that you seen no improvement in his footwork in the Steelers game?

I'll watch the game again and get back to you but I don't think I saw anything he hadn't shown during the year.

Syferus

The Denver o-line was woeful and, honestly, it had very little to do with Tebow's footwork or even pass accuracy.

They let a defense that on paper is one of the worst in the league shred it, giving Tebow hardly any time to go through his reads and Belichick had clearly game-planned very well for the option. I don't think anyone who's fair can put a large amount of Denver's troubles on Saturday down to Tebow.

davyjose

Stev_o wrote: »

One week he shows "signs" of improvement and the next week he shows his old bad habits. He got out coached today by BB. He dared him to throw to receivers who were given a cushion and had both edges spyed and Tebow couldn't handle it.

I would have said his coaches were outcoached by BB. But that's what BB does, come the playoffs, he manages to come up with defensive schemes that have hardly been seen all season. it's how he beat the Rams 10 years ago, and it's never really been any different in the offseason.

Anyway, according to Elway, Tebow will enter training camp as Denver's starting QB.

Syferus

davyjose wrote: »

I would have said his coaches were outcoached by BB. But that's what BB does, come the playoffs, he manages to come up with defensive schemes that have hardly been seen all season. it's how he beat the Rams 10 years ago, and it's never really been any different in the offseason.

Anyway, according to Elway, Tebow will enter training camp as Denver's starting QB.

I was suprised by the slew of reports making out Elway has a big headache on his hands - he has no option at this point but develop Tebow as a passer and bring in some Tebow-friendly talent.

Denver's management lucked out in that Thomas and Decker proved themselves to be young receivers of real potential and Willis McGahee (and Lance Bell too) showing alot in the run game after Moreno disappointed again. And that's not even mentioning Tebow infusing some serious energy to proceedings. After five games Denver's entire offense looked pretty woeful and their personnel moves (trading Lloyd rather than trying to get a deal done) didn't hint at things improving. Now they have something to nurture, which is alot more than most teams.

davyjose

There has to be something valid in Elway having the Off-season to work with Tebow in the pocket. Coupled with Tebow's work ethic, a lot can get done in the next 7/8 months. I would be willing to bet quite a bit of money that right now, as I type this, he's out there working on his throwing action or footwork.

kmart6

Supposedly he's working on his golf game for a Pro Am in Florida!

LuckyLloyd

I'm confident he is going to stuggle mightily next year. Four of the last five games provide the blueprint for how to stop him, and the fifth a textbook of what not to do in many respects (to be honest, playing most of the game in man coverage with no backside help is going to be exploitable against any NFL receiving core). But unfortunately, the issue has to wait until then. He'll have the entire training camp as the guy and presumably an off season where the Denver front office makes moves with him in mind. So no excuses not to improve - and he has a lot of improving to do imo, but we'll see.

spiralism

kmart6 wrote: »

Supposedly he's working on his golf game for a Pro Am in Florida!

Rumor had it that he was going to partner with Tiger, but that didn't happen, he's paired with Tony Romo instead. If Tebow partnered Tiger Woods i think the media world would explode

Jolly Red Giant

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I'm confident he is going to stuggle mightily next year. Four of the last five games provide the blueprint for how to stop him, and the fifth a textbook of what not to do in many respects (to be honest, playing most of the game in man coverage with no backside help is going to be exploitable against any NFL receiving core).

I disagree with this actually - remember when Tebow started in game 6 the Broncos were still using the offence installed for Orton. Over the remainder of the season they adopted a very basic and very conservative read-option offence. Assuming that the Broncos start with Tebow in the first game of the regular season you are going to see a far more sophisticated offence designed around his talents.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

But unfortunately, the issue has to wait until then. He'll have the entire training camp as the guy and presumably an off season where the Denver front office makes moves with him in mind. So no excuses not to improve - and he has a lot of improving to do imo, but we'll see.

This is all true - the most important point made by Elway during the end of season press conference was that Tebow had to "improve his performance in the passing game and his presence in the pocket". Elway understands that if the Broncos are going to win a Superbowl then Tebow will have to at least be competent passing from the pocket and be capable of winning some games as a pocket passer. If Tebow becomes a competent pocket passer (and it is still a big if) then his other talents open up an enormous range of possibilities for the Broncos offence.

kmart6

Waiting for all the excuses to come flying when Tebow fans realise he was a bit hurt on Saturday!

Syferus

kmart6 wrote: »

Waiting for all the excuses to come flying when Tebow fans realise he was a bit hurt on Saturday!

Eh? Tebow didn't do much but it's not like it was his fault his line looked like swiss cheese. Being injured or not doesn't really chance the analysis because he rarely got the time to do anything anyways.

spiralism

kmart6 wrote: »

Waiting for all the excuses to come flying when Tebow fans realise he was a bit hurt on Saturday!

He was pretty damn hurt but that wasnt the issue, what let him get hurt was. Not going to do much with 5 men in the backfield on every snap. 14 negative plays, most by any team this season, offensive line better not have got paid for that.

Poor enough outing for him by any account but he's earned himself another bite of the cherry. I think he's very Eli Manning, he'll never be the best QB in the league but he's clutch as **** and will win silverware sooner or later, while moving into the top 10 QBs in the league (remember with Eli it took quite a while for him to do so and he took a lot of flak up to then). He's the face of the team now, like it or not, the front office would be insane to move him and they know it. It would take a disastrous outing next season to cost him a stating job now, he's getting huge attention.
He's been talked about everywhere, i've heard him discussed on everything from total access and first take to iradio and spanish television (watching a spanish feed of el clasico i heard him mentioned)..

Elway and co know well that it would be insane to cut loose and if he continues to win while they bring in a good supporting cast it will make them look very good. Few interesting years ahead indeed.

kmart6

spiralism wrote: »

I think he's very Eli Manning, he'll never be the best QB in the league but he's clutch as **** and will win silverware sooner or later, while moving into the top 10 QBs in the league

:eek::eek::eek::eek:

Oh come on...your going a bit too far there! By silverware I'm taking it you mean MVP,Conerference Champions and Superbowl Champions?!....can not see any of them happening!

Eli won the NFC East in his second season with an 11-5 record, a much tougher division than Denver faced this year! And Eli can actually pass the ball! He's up there as a Top 5 QB this year!

They can't be considered similar!

Chucky the tree

He has one year and if he doesn't improve he's done. I wouldn't say disastourus, another one like this year and he is on the chopping block unless 8-8 happens to be good enough for the play-offs.

spiralism

kmart6 wrote: »

:eek::eek::eek::eek:

Oh come on...your going a bit too far there! By silverware I'm taking it you mean MVP,Conerference Champions and Superbowl Champions?!....can not see any of them happening!

Eli won the NFC East in his second season with an 11-5 record, a much tougher division than Denver faced this year! And Eli can actually pass the ball! He's up there as a Top 5 QB this year!

They can't be considered similar!

Ask the Steelers, their 12-4 record and number one pass defence can Tebow pass the ball.

And hey, we can only face what's in front of us. AFC West has generally been a juggernaught over the years, even in these days where it's considered poor Oakland and San Diego are at the worst solid and Kansas are pretty good. I have to laugh when people criticise weak divisions anyways, us, seattle, niners and the chargers have all managed pretty well in the playoffs out of winning a ****ty division in recent years haven't we?

Eli did struggle a lot early on, he won games the same way Tebow got criticised for winning, passer ratings of 55.4, 75.9, 77 and 73.9 his first four seasons, why is this criticism insane? He came around afterwards, most notably in superbowl 42 and has never looked back (rating never below 85 since). He was always clutch, a trait you can't teach and once the rest of his game caught up he became the player he is today, who's to say Tebow won't do it? If, like the Giants, we build a great, well coached team around him, i'd have every confidence that he will deliver in the long run.

In one year, we've improved from being the worst team in the AFC and laughing stock of the NFL to winning nine games, one of them in the playoffs against one of the league's traditional powerhouses, we're definitely ahead on our rebuilding project, that's for sure.

kmart6

I'm beginning to remember why I stopped posting here!

Clinging to one performance against a secondary missing it's top CB, and then Taylor having a nightmare game, it does not make him a good passer of the ball!!

The criticism is insane because Eli came in as traditional QB, a #1 pick!

Just take what Alex Smith said today about what Eli has had to face!

To be Peyton’s little brother, the No. 1 pick and you go to New York to play for the Giants. That’s a lot of pressure. I don’t think anyone has been in the situation he has … Those are pretty unique circumstances. Your older brother is arguably the greatest quarterback ever and a lot of expectations are on you and you go to a big city like New York.

Now your more than likely going to counter that with all the hype around Tebow, but that's all self imposed/created with the way he carries on with his religious stuff!

vetinari

kmart6, what's with all the excuses for the Steelers game?
A playoff win is a win. Simple as that.
I can see the comparison with Eli as well. Up until he won the superbowl, the Giants fans
had at least one point during the season where they reckoned he wasn't going to work out.

Chucky, I love the insinuation that he's skating on think ice after winning the division this year. If Cam Newton doesn't make the playoffs, is he done?

Speaking of Newtown, as he's a prototypical QB, how many years will you give him to win a superbowl before declaring that he's not the answer for the Panthers. Because with Tebow, there's this bizarre logic that he almost needs to get to a Superbowl before he can be viewed as a long term QB. The likes of Matt Ryan, Sam Bradford and Cam Newton don't seem to have this level of pressure.