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Electric Vehicles - Your thoughts - MotorMouth, Newstalk
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I'm staring to think Sessho works for Nissan :pac:
LOL definitely not, I work in IT. I'm sure Admins can probably see IP addresses of posters, I post from work sometimes (like now), so an IP whois lookup would easily confirm I'm not a Nissan employee masquerading as a regular punter
I just care a lot about this issue!0 -
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Er, wouldn't an 84% charge of a 24kwh battery in half an hour require a charging current of 183.27 amps? :rolleyes:
I'm not an electrician, but I have charged my car from near 0% to 84% in 30 minutes. I guess pulling into a Topaz like this one which has a 50kw DC fast charger was what did it for me.
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Sesshoumaru wrote: »Here is my post #21 from this thread
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=73691736&postcount=21
Here is your post #40
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=73713792&postcount=40
I suggest you read my post keeping your point on pollution etc in mind. I covered most of those points in my post and used links to evidence like the explanation for EV efficiency on the SEAI website or research MIT did on the well to wheel cost of EV's versus normal ICE cars.
You offered your opinion which you're perfectly entitled to, but you offered absolutely nothing to back it up. Can you point me to the parts of your post that weren't simply your opinion?
I have nothing against you or you expressing your opinion (which you're perfectly entitled to), but I don't think I should make all the effort. If you can find evidence to backup your assertions that EV's are not greener than ICE cars or your other points, then I'll be happy to engage you.
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Since I didn't cover it in any other posts directly, I will answer you on one point. You were saying EV's are no BMW? I'll certainly agree with you if you're talking about the g-wiz/reva or some of the other early EV's. The Nissan Leaf though is far more refined than any entry level 3 series. Why do I say that? well I'll give two points on this. First one is equipment level.
The Leaf has a lot of gadgets and a lot of safety equipment (5 star euroncap).
http://www.nissan.ie/NissanLeaf/BuyingALeaf/Specifications.aspx
http://www.euroncap.com/results/nissan/leaf/2011/432.aspx
7" touch screen computer for controlling everything from sat-nav to bluetooth and multimedia.
Telematics service built-in and free of charge. Can update itself online and even do neat stuff like read RSS feeds to you.
ESP and ABS are standard
Reversing camera is linked to 7" touch screen, put her in reverse and you have reverse camera with guide lines.
Everything from mirrors to windows and folding mirrors are electric.
Seats are extremely comfy and are well made (another leaf owner told me his son puked up in the car and it left no stain nor did fluids sink in - water repellent).
Wipers and and lights are all automatic and controlled by light/rain sensor
All lights that can legally be LED are LED and front light are auto levelling
Rear glass is tinted
Full automatic climate control
keyless entry and push start button
The cars bluetooth can pair with several different phones for calling or multimedia.
Climate and charging can be controlled remotely from PC or Android/iPhone
Electric parking brake
Cruise control and speed limiter
All those are standard, the only optional extra is the rear roof spoiler with solar panel. That's a lot of gadgets and safety equipment. I doubt you get all those on a bogo spec Audi or BMW, stuff like the telematics and remote climate you probably can't get at all? The performance is quite acceptable as well, good bhp and torque. Centre of gravity is also very low and weight distribution is 50/50
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf#Powertrain
Second point is where I try to get to the heart of what makes a luxury car a luxury car
What's the major differences between an S class/A8/7 Series and a Fiat Punto? What makes the Punto a small cheap car (I have nothing against the Punto, it's just the example car I picked) and the S class a luxury car? It's not because the S class is faster, sports cars are faster still. My answer would be refinement! The S class glides along the road in a refined manner that is just not possible in the Punto. You go right to the very top and take a Maybach, what do Mercedes engineers spend so much time trying to accomplish with a car like the Maybach? Silence! and smoothness.
The Leaf with its excellent build quality, low centre of gravity and EV powertrain absolutely approach S class levels of silence and refinement on the road. I highly recommend you take a free test drive in one.
Ok lets take a look more indepth some of my points...
Range... as per your own comments you CURRENTLY can not drive from Dublin to Galway... in the future you will but right now you cant without a long stop off... so CURRENTLY the range of EV cars is not good...
As i said they make a perfect car for a two car family....
Greener.... construction wise, the car is similiar build to an ICE car, metal and plastics.. the only difference is the batteries which are a big mining operation and numerous transportation across the globe and various refineries.. so IMHO their construction is not greener than a normal ICE vehicle.
also our electricity is gotton from the national grid.. which according to the ESB emits 504gr CO2 per KWH....
lets see how that stacks up to a small ICE, and note i havent taken even the most efficient ICE vehicle... a normal fiat Panda diesel (info from SEAI)
Pollution over 10,000 miles
Leaf has a 24kwh pack… average use is 0.3kwh per mile … therefore range is approx. 80miles (130km)
So in 10,000 miles a total of 3000 kwh are used..
Currently as per the ESB (http://www.esb.ie/esbcustomersupply/business/manage-your-account/fuel-mix.jsp) the Irish average is 504gr CO2 per Kwh
So a leaf produces 1512kg of CO2 per 10,000 miles
A similar small eco ICE car such as a Fiat Panda – does 109gr CO2 per mile or 1090kg per 10,000 miles
Cost.... firstly have you an estiamted cost of a battery pack? and the estimated lifespan of a battery pack??
on a very basic level of cost to own either a leaf oagainst a Fiat Pand 1.2 dynamic...
10,000 mile a year… 30,000 miles assuming tax, ins and maint to be similar
Leaf – Cost €30,000… nobody knows the 3 year depreciated value of these… but I think roughly be around €20k… so three years ownership costs 10k in depreciation
Electricty – (30,000miles / 0.3kwh per mile, times cost of elec night saver) = 30000/ 0.3 = 9000kwh times €0.0771 (esb night save rates) = €693.90
So the leaf over three years is….. €10,693.90
Panda - Cost €11,295. after three years be worth roughly €5,500, sp depreciation is €5795
Fuel – 30,000 miles 57.6 mpg (http://www.seai.ie/Power_of_One/Getting_Around/HCIYC/)
Equates to 520.8 gallons or 2364 litres… @ €1.50 per litre… = €3546.00 in fuel
A panda over three years €9,341
Mmm which costs more over three years?????
finaly snobbery issues... I quite agree whole heartly the Leaf is so much better than a boggo Bmw... but like my post said a Mondeo is a better car.. but which is bought more?? the BMW cause of a snobbery value...0 -
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In relation to cars, in 2015 there will be 25+ cars on the market which have batteries many of which are pure EV. So I doubt the car companies have their visions wrong. How many "explosive" cars sorry meant hydrogen cars will be on the market in 2015? Where can you refuel and service this Honda car in Ireland today? EV owners have their homes, and many 40 today (1500 by year end) street locations. On top of the 12 fast charging dealer locations, in addition to the many Topaz and other locations around strategic locations in Ireland - this will hit 32 by the end of this year.
It’s a fact Electric cars in Ireland are the future not some cocktail dangerous cars.
I was wondering where you were going with that.
First off your last line seems to suggest that I do not think electric cars are the future. You are wrong. I think electric cars are the future.
Secondly with regards to your comment on explosive cars.
The left is hydrogen and the right is petrol.
This lithium battery explosion killed a man.
They can all go wrong.
I think for the benefit of the debate here the safety aspects should not be jumped on by users here as they can all go wrong but as I or my parents haven't blown up in our petrol and diesel cars, I am sure most of the battery based boardsies were never hit with battery explosions either so I think it is safe to say we can sort out the safety implications.
I would never bring the safety of a battery based car into question or use it as an argument for what I think is right.
With regards to infrastructure it is easy to roll out charging points for battery vehicles but we already have a network of filling stations. With regards to home fueling/charging Honda are working on a solution for the home so I do not see the infrastructure point being one to make a firm decision on battery vs on board electric generation.
My "make or break" issue for lack of a better term is turn around time from no power to power and as a side issue, range. At the moment the battery power recharge times are unacceptable to me. It is great that they can suit some people like the member with a Leaf here however I feel to have a car worth mass producing and to have the public buy it it needs to, within reason, perform to the more demanding customers needs which current petrol and diesels set the bench mark for.
A example from now is a old diesel Golf can get you about 500 to 550 miles to a tank, that suits my needs rather well as when I am low I have the filling station network to get me going again in a few minutes. It will suit the needs of the less extensive road user, like ideal Leaf users perfectly too. Where that translates into battery cars that means the car should do good range but also be recharged in a couple of minutes. The hydrogen Honda is bigger, can go further and already has an infrastructure there for it and on top of that the car can be fueled up in the same time as a petrol or diesel.
With money being poured into what I skeptically see as the quick way of pleasing the eco minded parts of our brains, that is electric charging points, I personally wonder if the money could be spent else where as there is a better like for like system running in the USA, you go further, bigger car, same acceleration and top speed.
My point is that with electric cars being the future, which I support, is there a better way of getting the power to those motors? At this moment in time, taking charging and fueling out of the question there is a better car then the Leaf and that is the Honda FCX because of better range, similar performance and bigger size.
With hydrogen giving better results then cars like the Leaf now then this is the reason why I question the money being put into battery cars for the masses.0 -
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Sesshoumaru wrote: »my wife thinks a slightly more expensive S2000 would be better.
She is absolutely right.6. Oh yeah expect fuel to cost more than €1.50 as well. Oil is running out and China is now the biggest consumer of oil on the planet. BRIC countries like Brazil and India are fast increasing their consumption of oil. The country is also broke, so expect more carbon tax on petrol/diesel.
Do you expect the cost of electricity to remain unchanged? Are you aware that the known reserves of Lithium are quite small?
The only thing that makes electric vehicles even remotely viable is skewed taxation differentials. The base costs of the technologies for electric vehicles are way higher.
If a significant proportion of the vehicle fleet becomes electric, I do not see how governments will have any other option but to reduce or eliminate the skewed tax advantages because they need the revenue. Most of the running costs of a hydrocarbon powered vehicle are tax.0 -
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Right now though, the initial cost of the Leaf is very offputting to most. It will definitely reap the cost back over time but it's a major factor prohibiting sales imo.
Judging by the 'fuel' consumption figures quoted above it should save money but admittedly, not as much as if the price was a few grand lower.
For me, power and top speed are a real problem. A measly 108 bhp and 90 mph* top speed? No thanks.
So if prices came down and power went up I would definitely consider buying one, even with the limited range.
*yes, yes, I know that 90 mph is far above the legal speed limit but I may or may not on occasion have exceed the top speed of the Nissan Leaf, in the past.
I know it's not fast, I did give up a bigger and faster car, I still own a sports bike as well. So I know it's not fast! But 'measly' is unfair
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf#Powertrain
280 newton metres of torque is nice, 0 to 97kph in 9.9 seconds ain't bad either and I can definitely say it very easily exceeds 160kph. I'll give you a spin sometime if you need proof
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She is absolutely right.
Do you expect the cost of electricity to remain unchanged? Are you aware that the known reserves of Lithium are quite small?
The only thing that makes electric vehicles even remotely viable is skewed taxation differentials. The base costs of the technologies for electric vehicles are way higher.
If a significant proportion of the vehicle fleet becomes electric, I do not see how governments will have any other option but to reduce or eliminate the skewed tax advantages because they need the revenue. Most of the running costs of a hydrocarbon powered vehicle are tax.
That my wife prefers the S2000 was real, she really likes that car
I expect oil to go up and I expect electricity to go up. I've covered this earlier. I want to go out and get my lunch Basically though electricity is something we could generate in our own country from renewable's and nuclear. Oil is not.
All resources on this planet including lithium and oil are finite. Technology will overcome, or how else will we power all our mobile gadgets? iPhones? tablets? etc. People have mentioned hydrogen fuel cells, I think they're a long way off. But that is one possibility. I'll post up some links to new battery technology being researched later.
*edit*
I also posted up with proof that my car is costing me around €20 (which includes VAT) to do 2100km. If anyone wants to take that figure and add fuel taxes in the correct order, I'd be interested to see what it would cost as well?0 -
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She has good taste. I would be driving one myself if I didn't need the load carrying capacity of my Civic type RSesshoumaru wrote: »That my wife prefers the S2000 was real, she really likes that car
I'm too lazy, but someone did it for the UK which wouldn't be far off:I also posted up with proof that my car is costing me around €20 (which includes VAT) to do 2100km. If anyone wants to take that figure and add fuel taxes in the correct order, I'd be interested to see what it would cost as well?
http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18223974&page=7Leaf does about 3 miles per KWh. 1KWh is about 11p, so that's about 3.7p per mile.
A small petrol car could get 60mpg. Petrol is about £5.70 per gallon, so the apparent cost is about 9.5p per mile.
However, almost 70% of the petrol cost is tax, so the actual cost is about 2.9p per mile.0 -
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