Electric Vehicles - Your thoughts - MotorMouth, Newstalk

Dardania

Look forward to hearing it!

Regarding charging infrastrucutre, is it in the brief for the NRA motorway services areas? And are there points in the existing (new) MSAs on the M1 & M4? Maybe someone from the NRA could be helpful also?

Bens

Nice post about the leaf.
Very expensive to buy though.
What do you do on your way to Galway if there are a couple of other leafs waiting for the charging station?

Monty.

Electric cars clearly are part of the future etc. but currently, when you take all costs into account, they don't make any financial sense at present as far as I can see, and until then, they will be for enthusiasts only.

Never Wrong

I hear that there will be a reservation feature, allowing you to reserve a charging point in advance from your sat nav. Should allow you to plan your stops along a long journey.

Sesshoumaru

Bens wrote: »

Nice post about the leaf.
Very expensive to buy though.
What do you do on your way to Galway if there are a couple of other leafs waiting for the charging station?

That would be an issue caused by the successful roll-out of EV's in Ireland. I'll gladly deal with it if it arises.

If Topaz or other stations are willing to install one fast charger, then I can't see how they wouldn't be willing to install more if successful. That's just called growing the business. Here are some charging station options

http://chademo.com/01_CHAdeMO_Chargers.html

savagecabbages

I suppose if loads of EVs are sold all of a sudden, there will be loads of charging stations installed all of a sudden.

x in the city

Daraghot wrote: »

Long time no write on boards.ie!

Daragh Ó Tuama here from MotorMouth in Newstalk. We're currently working on a 6 part podcast for Newstalk on the electric vehicle. I'm hoping to get your thoughts on EVs so I can let our listeners know what the boardies think.

Sooo, if you have any thoughts, any thoughts at all all on the EV would you mind posting them here? We'll be recording over the next few days, and I'd really appreciate your thoughts.

Kind Regards,
Daragh

computer says no.

Darsad

As far as Ev,s go fo me i think the old adage Pioneers get shot Settlers get the land applies. Available models and infrastructure is pure tokenism , Ev,s may have some small part to play in future motoring but I very much doubt if they will even account for 1 % by 2020.

robtri

ev's have too many major flaws currently that i can see..

1. range .. no point saying too much, we all know the limitations... as part of a two car family, they would be more than likely a runner... lets be honest limited to 140km a trip is not good except for commuting..

2. even in these recessioanry years, style and status symbol still play a stupidly big part in Irish and global consumerism... while the new generation of EV's is getting better, it still no BMW... BMW , Merc, Audi are still big sellers in the car market cause they represent status, cause lets face it the mondeo is a better car than the standard bogo spec 3 series or A4... but yet the BMW outsells it ??? so a small EV just doesnt really cut the mustard yet...

3 price... just too damn expensive at the moment... i am sorry but €30k... for car that wont save u money over its lifetime, is not green ( current power supplies and battery manufacturing dont allow for it to be green, maybe in the future but right now NO).... A similiar sized petrol or diesel car is over half the price... 15K gets a lot of fuel a hell of alot...
and lets hope nothing happens the battery pack... or in 7 years the battery pack is knackered from charge cycles.. then what?? cost does not add up... False economy to think it will save money short term or long term.

Sesshoumaru

robtri wrote: »

ev's have too many major flaws currently that i can see..

1. range .. no point saying too much, we all know the limitations... as part of a two car family, they would be more than likely a runner... lets be honest limited to 140km a trip is not good except for commuting..

2. even in these recessioanry years, style and status symbol still play a stupidly big part in Irish and global consumerism... while the new generation of EV's is getting better, it still no BMW... BMW , Merc, Audi are still big sellers in the car market cause they represent status, cause lets face it the mondeo is a better car than the standard bogo spec 3 series or A4... but yet the BMW outsells it ??? so a small EV just doesnt really cut the mustard yet...

3 price... just too damn expensive at the moment... i am sorry but €30k... for car that wont save u money over its lifetime, is not green ( current power supplies and battery manufacturing dont allow for it to be green, maybe in the future but right now NO).... A similiar sized petrol or diesel car is over half the price... 15K gets a lot of fuel a hell of alot...
and lets hope nothing happens the battery pack... or in 7 years the battery pack is knackered from charge cycles.. then what?? cost does not add up... False economy to think it will save money short term or long term.

You're wrong and it's not worth my time carefully refuting your non researched arguments

unkel

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

You're wrong and it's not worth my time carefully refuting your non researched arguments

That reply is worse than no reply

To address robtri's points:

1. The limited range of current EVs is not for everyone, but it's fine for the vast majority of people. Provided there are plenty of accessible quick charge points around the country for when people take the car for the occasional longer trip

2. Some people would argue that there is a lot more status value in driving around the first proper EV than there is in driving a low end Mercedes / Audi / BMW

3. Price. With you there. If it wasn't for the massive tax payer funded subsidy, hardly anyone (except goody goody Brad Pitt and the like) would buy the car. Even nett of the subsidy, €30k is a lot of money for a small family saloon. Fair play to Sesshoumaru though for trying and reporting back here. He has the money and he hopes the figures as promised by Nissan about the battery etc. will work out. I do hope they will too

galwaytt

BrookieD wrote: »

If i could get the DAA to put in a charge point and then get a buyer for my Hybrid i would buy a Leaf in a heart beat.

...you mean the national airport operator has no charging points in it's carparks ?

What if Sesshoumaru wants to go on 2 week's hols...........where does he leave his car at the airport ? It's bad enought an ICE car getting a flat battery whilst you're away - you can get it jump started - buy an EV ? And it'll need to be at the charging point for 2 weeks btw..........which means no-one else can use it.........

Usual State-operated muppetry, therefore...........

moonlighting

i got my hands on an electric scooter and am very disappointed to be honest. its slightly slower than a bicycle and range wise i would be safer with a bicycle.
electric cars would only suit people with massive wind turbines in the back yard and living close to a city center.
if i could generate my own electricity and afford a gm volt i would, but for now its only a rich mans game, and rich people want to drive ferraris and lamborghinis not small depressing electric car,

El Sorab

I'd love an electric car but the technology for good long lasting batteries isn't there yet.

Well they had NiMH but they're a bit heavy, otherwise decent batteries. Long lasting nickel iron batteries but they have even lower density. Lithium ion is convenient and fashionable at the moment but longevity is really terrible.

A fixed speed gear box would also be fairly boring compared to a good manual box

Never Wrong

moonlighting wrote: »

i got my hands on an electric scooter and am very disappointed to be honest. its slightly slower than a bicycle and range wise i would be safer with a bicycle.
electric cars would only suit people with massive wind turbines in the back yard and living close to a city center.
if i could generate my own electricity and afford a gm volt i would, but for now its only a rich mans game, and rich people want to drive ferraris and lamborghinis not small depressing electric car,

You should test drive a leaf. It's anything but depressing and not small.

As for your comment about people with massive wind turbines, that is just plain ridiculous. It costs less than €2 to charge a leaf from empty to full using your domestic supply at night time.

Sesshoumaru

moonlighting wrote: »

i got my hands on an electric scooter and am very disappointed to be honest. its slightly slower than a bicycle and range wise i would be safer with a bicycle.
electric cars would only suit people with massive wind turbines in the back yard and living close to a city center.
if i could generate my own electricity and afford a gm volt i would, but for now its only a rich mans game, and rich people want to drive ferraris and lamborghinis not small depressing electric car,

I would guess a 50cc scooter would also be fairly disappointing.

http://www.mcc-energy.com/?products=vectrix-vx-1-li-electric-scooter

http://www.greenmachines.ie/vectrix_scooter/product.aspx

I test drove one of these, it is not slow. Maybe slow if I compared it to my Ducati Monster, but in comparison to my Piaggio MP3 250, they're about the same.

While I am generally pro electric vehicle and think it is a technology that holds some promise for the future I have one major reservation.

Currently, they are cheap to run because they can be charged at night taking advantage of very cheap off peak electricity rates. However, if the popularity of EVs were to increase significantly, night time would no longer be off peak for electricity as the power consumed by many thousands of households charging their EV would be comparable to the demand placed on the grid during daytime and evening. Thus, cheap night time electricity would disappear and the cost of running an EV would increase significantly.

Never Wrong

Deleted User wrote: »

While I am generally pro electric vehicle and think it is a technology that holds some promise for the future I have one major reservation.

Currently, they are cheap to run because they can be charged at night taking advantage of very cheap off peak electricity rates. However, if the popularity of EVs were to increase significantly, night time would no longer be off peak for electricity as the power consumed by many thousands of households charging their EV would be comparable to the demand placed on the grid during daytime and evening. Thus, cheap night time electricity would disappear and the cost of running an EV would increase significantly.

The amount of power consumed by a large amount of EVs charging is a lot less than you would think. See page 29 of this report from Eirgrid: http://www.eirgrid.com/media/Generation%20Adequacy%20Report%202010-2016.pdf
Figure 3-9 shows that in 2020 with 250,000 EVs charging the increase in the off-peak demand is still way off the peak daytime demand.
It is not clear what 'controllably charged' means but I suspect it has something to do with encouraging/forcing most charging to be done at night.

Sesshoumaru

Deleted User wrote: »

While I am generally pro electric vehicle and think it is a technology that holds some promise for the future I have one major reservation.

Currently, they are cheap to run because they can be charged at night taking advantage of very cheap off peak electricity rates. However, if the popularity of EVs were to increase significantly, night time would no longer be off peak for electricity as the power consumed by many thousands of households charging their EV would be comparable to the demand placed on the grid during daytime and evening. Thus, cheap night time electricity would disappear and the cost of running an EV would increase significantly.

I think you're missing a crucial piece of the puzzle here. Power plants can't be turned off at night. So at the moment we are producing power at night that is not being used, wasted in other words. So charging up at night is essentially EV owners using energy that would otherwise have been wasted... and paying for it!

You'd need 100k or 200k EV's charging at night before you'd move on from utilising energy normally wasted into an area where you'd have to generate more power at night than before you had that many switch over to using EV's

Even charging during the day, it goes from 2 euro for a complete fill to 4 euro for a complete fill. A big increase but still makes an EV a lot cheaper than the average car. There is no reason for electricity prices to go up (possibly go down?) if we start using our large reserves of renewable energy.

The same can't be said for oil, this will definitely get more and more expensive. China has already become the number 1 oil importer in the world, surpassing the US. Big countries like India can't be far behind. The usual suspects like the amount of tax on fuel will be brought up of course, but we need that tax. Take it away from fuel and some other tax has to go up.

Del2005

moonlighting wrote: »

rich people want to drive ferraris and lamborghinis not and have small depressing electric car to show how "green they are

FYP

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

if we start using our large reserves of renewable energy.

The same can't be said for oil, this will definitely get more and more expensive. China has already become the number 1 oil importer in the world, surpassing the US. Big countries like India can't be far behind. The usual suspects like the amount of tax on fuel will be brought up of course, but we need that tax.

Unless we go nuclear we'll still be burning fossil fuels to maintain our base load and we are also paying a premium for renewable energy. The only reliable one which doesn't require base load backup is tidal which we aren't spending any money on.

We either need several large inter connectors to mainland Europe to use their nuclear base load if we want to generate renewable power large scale.

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

There is no reason for electricity prices to go up (possibly go down?)

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Take it away from fuel and some other tax has to go up.

Once a large % of the national fleet is electric the government will loose billions of Euro in tax revenue from excise duty and motor tax. This will have to be replaced and they will start charging more for "motor electricity".

Sesshoumaru

Hi Del2005. My wife and I sold our older secondhand ICE cars (2006 Citroen C2 and 2000 Audi A6) and went for one electric car for our family (2 kids as well). We're not rich, we're middle class and we have no interest in showing how green we are to our neighbours. I can afford to spend this money now on a Leaf because I didn't go crazy in the celtic tiger years. We rented then and we continue now to rent a modest home in the suburbs.

As for base loads, we need a smarter grid and I think something like this could be a step towards that.

http://www.gizmag.com/nissan-leaf-providing-household-power/19411/

If you want to bore yourself to tears you can have a look at some of my older posts on boards.ie, I'm generally pro nuclear. But I also recognise there are other ways forward.

Tax on electricity used for motor vehicles is a possibility. But either way electricity is a power source we can generate domestically. At the moment we have no known large reserves of oil. If half the cost of petrol/diesel is taxes, the other half goes back to unstable oil producing regimes.

Using a combination of renewable's, a smarter grid and maybe nuclear, we could produce our own energy for transportation.

Joe 90

Deleted User wrote: »

While I am generally pro electric vehicle and think it is a technology that holds some promise for the future I have one major reservation.

Currently, they are cheap to run because they can be charged at night taking advantage of very cheap off peak electricity rates. However, if the popularity of EVs were to increase significantly, night time would no longer be off peak for electricity as the power consumed by many thousands of households charging their EV would be comparable to the demand placed on the grid during daytime and evening. Thus, cheap night time electricity would disappear and the cost of running an EV would increase significantly.

More to the point, they are cheap to charge because the leccy ain't taxed like petrol or diesel. If they take off in any significant way the government is gonna get that tax back somehow.

Joe 90

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Hi Del2005. My wife and I sold our older secondhand ICE cars (2006 Citroen C2 and 2000 Audi A6) and went for one electric car for our family (2 kids as well). We're not rich, we're middle class and we have no interest in showing how green we are to our neighbours. I can afford to spend this money now on a Leaf because I didn't go crazy in the celtic tiger years. We rented then and we continue now to rent a modest home in the suburbs.

As for base loads, we need a smarter grid and I think something like this could be a step towards that.

http://www.gizmag.com/nissan-leaf-providing-household-power/19411/

If you want to bore yourself to tears you can have a look at some of my older posts on boards.ie, I'm generally pro nuclear. But I also recognise there are other ways forward.

Tax on electricity used for motor vehicles is a possibility. But either way electricity is a power source we can generate domestically. At the moment we have no known large reserves of oil. If half the cost of petrol/diesel is taxes, the other half goes back to unstable oil producing regimes.

Using a combination of renewable's, a smarter grid and maybe nuclear, we could produce our own energy for transportation.

What you say makes a lot of sense but I wonder just how high a percentage of imported oil is used in road transport? Probably much less than is used for heating, both industrial and domestic and the production of electricity, both industrial and domestic again. That makes a great argument on it's own for nuclear generation, never mind electric cars.

Sesshoumaru

Joe 90 wrote: »

What you say makes a lot of sense but I wonder just how high a percentage of imported oil is used in road transport? Probably much less than is used for heating, both industrial and domestic and the production of electricity, both industrial and domestic again. That makes a great argument on it's own for nuclear generation, never mind electric cars.

http://www.seai.ie/Publications/Statistics_Publications/Energy_Balance/Provisional_2010_Energy_Balance.pdf

Looks to me like a fair chunk of oil use is in private road cars. Unless I'm reading it wrong, transportation takes the lions share, industry has a significant chunk, but is still a good bit smaller.

As I said I'm not against Nuclear. I think it could have a place in Ireland, I just think we could possibly do without it if we invested in a smart grid with EV's forming a part of that smart grid. Then again we could reap the benefits of a smart grid and find we could benefit further from nuclear power. It's certainly up for debate!

robtri

unkel wrote: »

That reply is worse than no reply

To address robtri's points:

1. The limited range of current EVs is not for everyone, but it's fine for the vast majority of people. Provided there are plenty of accessible quick charge points around the country for when people take the car for the occasional longer trip

I agree and currently we do not have anywhere near enough, so at the moment the EV is flawed when it comes to range.. like i said it would make a perfect second car in a family.

unkel wrote: »

2. Some people would argue that there is a lot more status value in driving around the first proper EV than there is in driving a low end Mercedes / Audi / BMW

true but sales figures currently show people are spending their money on the low end "premium cars" and I personally can't see that changing in favour of EV's ... but I will watch the sales figures in case I am wrong

unkel wrote: »

3. Price. With you there. If it wasn't for the massive tax payer funded subsidy, hardly anyone (except goody goody Brad Pitt and the like) would buy the car. Even nett of the subsidy, €30k is a lot of money for a small family saloon. Fair play to Sesshoumaru though for trying and reporting back here. He has the money and he hopes the figures as promised by Nissan about the battery etc. will work out. I do hope they will too

I hope they do, I personally would love an EV as a commute to car work...

Sesshoumaru

Joe 90 wrote: »

More to the point, they are cheap to charge because the leccy ain't taxed like petrol or diesel. If they take off in any significant way the government is gonna get that tax back somehow.

Well electricity is taxed, but I know there are more taxes on petrol/diesel. I don't have time to look it up now or do the calculations. But electricity already has VAT on it. Maybe someone who knows the tax rates for fuel could do the calculations?

It currently costs me approximately €20 to do 2100km in my EV, this figure includes VAT. Someone out there could add on fuel taxes in the correct order and tell us what that works out as?

robtri

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

You're wrong and it's not worth my time carefully refuting your non researched arguments

very insightful... but like you i am entitled to my opinion, please tell me where in post i mis represented the EV car??

so just to clarify...

how long would it take you to drive from cork to Donegal town and back? in your EV

how are the sales of EV's compared to sales of the low end "premium" brands?

How much is the leaf again? did i seriously misrepresent the price? how much is a new battery pack? and what is its rated lifespan?

Sesshoumaru

robtri wrote: »

very insightful...

...

Here is my post #21 from this thread

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=73691736&postcount=21

Here is your post #40

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=73713792&postcount=40

I suggest you read my post keeping your point on pollution etc in mind. I covered most of those points in my post and used links to evidence like the explanation for EV efficiency on the SEAI website or research MIT did on the well to wheel cost of EV's versus normal ICE cars.

You offered your opinion which you're perfectly entitled to, but you offered absolutely nothing to back it up. Can you point me to the parts of your post that weren't simply your opinion?

I have nothing against you or you expressing your opinion (which you're perfectly entitled to), but I don't think I should make all the effort. If you can find evidence to backup your assertions that EV's are not greener than ICE cars or your other points, then I'll be happy to engage you.

_________________________________________________________________

Since I didn't cover it in any other posts directly, I will answer you on one point. You were saying EV's are no BMW? I'll certainly agree with you if you're talking about the g-wiz/reva or some of the other early EV's. The Nissan Leaf though is far more refined than any entry level 3 series. Why do I say that? well I'll give two points on this. First one is equipment level.

The Leaf has a lot of gadgets and a lot of safety equipment (5 star euroncap).

http://www.nissan.ie/NissanLeaf/BuyingALeaf/Specifications.aspx

http://www.euroncap.com/results/nissan/leaf/2011/432.aspx
7" touch screen computer for controlling everything from sat-nav to bluetooth and multimedia.
Telematics service built-in and free of charge. Can update itself online and even do neat stuff like read RSS feeds to you.
ESP and ABS are standard
Reversing camera is linked to 7" touch screen, put her in reverse and you have reverse camera with guide lines.
Everything from mirrors to windows and folding mirrors are electric.
Seats are extremely comfy and are well made (another leaf owner told me his son puked up in the car and it left no stain nor did fluids sink in - water repellent).
Wipers and and lights are all automatic and controlled by light/rain sensor
All lights that can legally be LED are LED and front light are auto levelling
Rear glass is tinted
Full automatic climate control
keyless entry and push start button
The cars bluetooth can pair with several different phones for calling or multimedia.
Climate and charging can be controlled remotely from PC or Android/iPhone
Electric parking brake
Cruise control and speed limiter

All those are standard, the only optional extra is the rear roof spoiler with solar panel. That's a lot of gadgets and safety equipment. I doubt you get all those on a bogo spec Audi or BMW, stuff like the telematics and remote climate you probably can't get at all? The performance is quite acceptable as well, good bhp and torque. Centre of gravity is also very low and weight distribution is 50/50

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf#Powertrain

Second point is where I try to get to the heart of what makes a luxury car a luxury car What's the major differences between an S class/A8/7 Series and a Fiat Punto? What makes the Punto a small cheap car (I have nothing against the Punto, it's just the example car I picked) and the S class a luxury car? It's not because the S class is faster, sports cars are faster still. My answer would be refinement! The S class glides along the road in a refined manner that is just not possible in the Punto. You go right to the very top and take a Maybach, what do Mercedes engineers spend so much time trying to accomplish with a car like the Maybach? Silence! and smoothness.

The Leaf with its excellent build quality, low centre of gravity and EV powertrain absolutely approach S class levels of silence and refinement on the road. I highly recommend you take a free test drive in one.

Owen

I'm staring to think Sessho works for Nissan :pac:

GTE

We need them.
I like them.
I feel however the electric motors are getting their power in the wrong way.

A hydrogen car right now can be bigger, go further and perform as quickly as a battery powered unit.
I would look into how any difficulties in hydrogen generated electricity for EV's could work in the long run.