Getting Samoyed - dog or bitch??

Squirm

I have a question relating to Donedeal and I don't wish to derail the thread, but because it is relating to Sammys and to Donedeal, I thought the OP might still be interested in the answers.

I was on this site several months ago, as I am building a house and when it is completed I wist to get a dog. I have two breeds in mind and have been doing extensive research on both. I have now 100% decided upon a Samoyed.

I don't wish to get him until next summer, but I know that reputable breeders don't have a constant supply of pups and often (of not always) have waiting lists. So I am doing my research etc now, with that in mind.

I have the name of a couple of breeders and am fortunate to know a friend of a friend, who is a very highly regarded breeder. I have also taken a look at Donedeal and, of course, there are tons of Sammys for sale there to. They range in price from 100e (!!!!) to 450e. The majority of them claim to be IKC registered, vaccinated, wormed, chipped, etc etc etc and a few claim to have hip scoring done. The price for these dogs, that seem to have all the necessary testing completed, still varies dramatically.#

Obviously not every single breeder on Donedeal is a puppy farmer or an unscrupulous byb. I have seen one particular advertisment that does not ring any alarm bells for me. They are asking for 350e and the dog will apparently be hip scored etc etc but NOT health tested. It will come with a few months pet insurance and it has been reared thus far in a family environment important to me). Both parents can be seen and the ad states that prospective buyers MUST come to their house to be 'vetted' and to see the parents etc. It sounds above board and the photos don't reveal anything suspect (like mixed aged puppies in the background). I am unsure as to whether I can link the ad here, as it isn't always permitted on threads.

Anyway, my query is how people feel about an ad such as this and a breeder such as this? My only reservation is that they are releasing the pups at 8wks, whereas I have found more reputable breeders seem to hold on to them until 10wks +. The dogs are probably not show champions but if they are healthy and in good condition, would I be wrong to opt for a puppy such as these ones, on the grounds that they are advertised on Donedeal and are competitively priced?... Thoughts?...

Sorry again, for derailing. I just think it may be relevant to the thread content, if not necessarily the OP.

Cherry Blossom

Squirm wrote: »

They are asking for 350e and the dog will apparently be hip scored etc etc but NOT health tested. It will come with a few months pet insurance and it has been reared thus far in a family environment important to me). Both parents can be seen and the ad states that prospective buyers MUST come to their house to be 'vetted' and to see the parents etc. It sounds above board and the photos don't reveal anything suspect (like mixed aged puppies in the background). I am unsure as to whether I can link the ad here, as it isn't always permitted on threads.

Two main points to note:

1. Some unscrupulous types have now copped on to the fact that people are becoming more educated and are faking 'papers', some are saying registered but are registering with Canine Ireland, not the IKC.

2. As has already been mentioned on this thread some reputable breeders are now having a lot of trouble finding homes for perfectly good pups.

The bold part there - what do you mean exactly by NOT health-tested, if anyone is telling you their dogs are hip-scored but not health-tested I would be wary as hip-scoring is one of the genetic health tests that exists. Ask what the scores are, ask where they were tested and contact the vet who allegedly tested them to verify you are being told the truth. Then find out what an acceptable score is for breeding for the particular breed. I started a thread with some info on health-testing a while back - which is here:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=73167699

It never really took off but there are some good links there. My first port of call would always be the breed clubs who can advise you on ideal scores etc.

<Edit> - changed breed club to clubs because I contacted every one for the breed in the British Isle!

DBB

Hi squirm,
There are people here who've got perfectly good dogs from perfectly good breeders via that site. There are loads more who've been stung, but it's not impossible to find a genuine breeder who isn't aware of the online-selling problem.
Let's face it, there is an average of 96 new litters advertised on that site in any one 24 hour period... By the law of averages a few of them must be ok.
Just as an FYI, all ikc registered pups come with free insurance for a certain period of time (it's been ages since I bought a pup so can't remember exactly how long!)
A lot of the ads say the pups are home-reared, they've cottoned on that's what people want to hear. But weepy eyes, ear mites, harvest mites, fleas, and fearful disposition give away the truth.
However, if you think they're bona fide, why not do all the checks you'd do anyway? Go visit them now and meet the pups without the intention of choosing one. Make sure you're happy, that the pups feel like they 'belong' inside, get a feel for the relationship between owner and all the dogs. Any doubts, walk away... Listen to the little voice within if it's nagging you!
And ask the searching questions. I'd be very up front and ask why they advertise online. You seem to be being very sensible about all of this, and are to be applauded for that. I truly hope it all works out for you!
No matter who you go to for a pup, it's buyer beware. When buying online, it's buyer even more beware!

Cherry Blossom

Sorry, (me again :rolleyes:)

Lot's of advice on what to look for in this thread as well:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056235625

As for the age of pups, I personally think 9 weeks is the optimum age to take a pup if you have a choice in it, depends on the individual circumstances though, it's likely my next pup will be coming from the UK so it will be at least a week after 2nd vaccs because of the distance and travel involved.

planetX

Is the OP planning to buy his pup on donedeal? It will be interesting to see if he still plans to put him to stud in a couple of years when any genetic problems have come to light. How can it be possible to plan breeding a dog you don't even have yet??? Obviously these people have never had the misfortune and costs of a pet with inherited joint problems:mad:

snowy two

Just reading through this thread and it makes me sick its all about making money out of samoyeds i have samoyeds myself and i would never have them for making money out of them they are such fantastic very effectionate pets if i was too have a dog too make money out of it i wouldnt there not money making machines. As far as done deal goes there is some perfectly good pedigree healthy samoyeds on it and just because the dogs arent winning at championship shows with the state of the economy lots of people wouldnt be able too afford to go most people are just concentrating on looking after their dogs properly through the recession as far as breeding goes i wouldnt even think about it because the market just isnt there.

lrushe

snowy two wrote: »

As far as done deal goes there is some perfectly good pedigree healthy samoyeds on it and just because the dogs arent winning at championship shows...

The point of showing is to preserve the standard of a breed, that standard created the Samoyed you own and love today, to disregard this and stray from the standard is to disrespect the breed.
Showing is not some snewty, point scoring operation there is a very important purpose behind it and is not a step that should be skipped by breeders.

Squirm

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Two main points to note:

1. Some unscrupulous types have now copped on to the fact that people are becoming more educated and are faking 'papers', some are saying registered but are registering with Canine Ireland, not the IKC.

2. As has already been mentioned on this thread some reputable breeders are now having a lot of trouble finding homes for perfectly good pups.

The bold part there - what do you mean exactly by NOT health-tested, if anyone is telling you their dogs are hip-scored but not health-tested I would be wary as hip-scoring is one of the genetic health tests that exists. Ask what the scores are, ask where they were tested and contact the vet who allegedly tested them to verify you are being told the truth. Then find out what an acceptable score is for breeding for the particular breed. I started a thread with some info on health-testing a while back - which is here:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=73167699

It never really took off but there are some good links there. My first port of call would always be the breed clubs who can advise you on ideal scores etc.

<Edit> - changed breed club to clubs because I contacted every one for the breed in the British Isle!

In relation to the dogs being hip tested but not health tested... that might be MY misunderstanding. I was doing some research on a Irish Samoyed Club website and received a small list of Irish breeders. It was possible to filter the list by selecting only breeders that health tested their dogs, however, when I did this, the site said there were no matches- i.e. none of the recommended breeders do a comprehensive health test. This made me think that getting the dogs hips scored and getting a full health screening, were two seperate things. I may well be wrong- it appears I am!! So apologies there.

I would only be happy to adopt my puppy from a family that is on hand to provide support to me following the purchase and who cares as much about the health of the puppy I am bringing home as I do. I would be prepared to visit and view Donedeal puppies, if I felt they were genuine, ethical breeders and will do so. I will also source breeders recommended through other avenues.

I find it thoroughly and absolutely immoral to breed dogs with the sole intention of making money.

Sookie, I don't wish to be judgemental and perhaps your intentions were misunderstood in writing and via your posts here. My gran and other family members have been avid breeders for decades (westies) and they have all enjoyed immensely this hobby. For them, my gran in particular, it was a hobby that demanding all of her time and attention and that she adored. She loved bringing the puppies into the world and matching them with suitable families and receiving updates on how they were doing. She loved meeting these owners years later at shows etc and seeing 'her' pups doing well and thriving. She did make a profit on each sale, but on a number of occasions was unable to home every dog. Thankfully there was always a family member on hand to adopt one, and she was more than happy to keep another puppy if she had to.

I was wondering though- do you think that breeding Samoyeds is a good idea because there are already lots for sale online? I got that impression from your posts. If so, surely that is a tad illogical...? If there are lots already for sale, why introduce more to the market?? Will you mind if your dog turns out to be unsuitable for studding? My gran certainly ended up with a Westie or two that was unsuitable for breeding, but they were loved family pets who she kept and adored regardless....

flahers

I am the owner of two Samoyeds, one we bought as a pup and the older dog we got two years ago from somebody who could no longer afford to care for him properly. These dogs need a lot of care and attention and are not for you if you cant afford to look after them properly. They require regular grooming as they have a double coat and shed like mad so you have to be very patient. They also require a lot of exercise (running around the garden is not enough). I spend 150 euros for both dogs to be groomed and one of my dogs has hip displasia so he is taking a joint supplement every day which costs us 80 euro every two months, luckily we are in a position to look after them well and in my opinion these dogs are family pets and I never got them with the intention of making money. Because of their coat they are not dogs that can be left outside in bad weather so you need to have the space inside for them in bad weather. In conclusion these dogs are so loveable and give so much affection so think twice before getting one unless you can devote all you time and attention to the dog.

ashblag

Sorry to barge in but just read this thread.

DBB your first post had me in tears, you do a fantastic job as do all rescues your love for animals and they're welfare really touched me. Well done x

To the OP you may think studding out the dog is a good idea but you may have no idea what is happening on the other side.

My mum adopted an ex-breeding Jack russell bitch a few years ago and one of her puppies. The pup was fine the mother was in an awfull state,took over a year to gain her trust in humans, dumped because only had two pups in last litter and she is only approx 4years.


THINK about what you're doing.....

Wisco

First of all DBB, I'd like to say that your long post a page back is excellent, and to say well done to you for all your good work. Everything you said about what happens to unwanted dogs is spot on.
As someone who works in the vet industry, when I hear a client say "I got it on Donedeal" I just cringe as I know that the pup we're about to see is less than healthy. Now, some buyers do get lucky with a reasonably healthy and well looked after pup, but if I see something sickly, I can nearly guess where it came from 90% of the time (donedeal).
If only people would THINK about what happens to all these unwanted dogs, I would hope welfare would improve. Putting a healthy animal to sleep is a very unpleasant experience, and I know this from my own work life. If there is one aspect of my job I dislike, it's that- a sick or old animal who is suffering is one thing, but a young and playful dog- well, there are no words to describe how that makes me feel :mad:

The Sweeper

The 'hip scored but not health tested' - you can't hip score a puppy. Hip scoring should be done on the parents before breeding. You can sell a pup from hip scored parents and cite their scores as a hopeful guarantee of the pup's soundness, but you can't produce a hip score cert for a pup (and if someone selling you a pup decides to produce one for that pup, it's a fake).

slookie

So if donedeal is full of cowboys, where do ye suggest getting a pup? Is there a Samoyed rescue place in the country?

ISDW

slookie wrote: »

So if donedeal is full of cowboys, where do ye suggest getting a pup? Is there a Samoyed rescue place in the country?

You contact the breed club through the IKC, and the chances are you will be put on a waiting list for a pup. Rescues very seldom gets pups in, and they will insist on the pup being neutered/spayed when it is old enough, so that it cannot be bred from.

DBB

There is a woman who runs a rescue for the breed, but like all good rescues and as ISDW says, all dogs are neutered before they're rehomed.
Rescues are trying to clean up the mess, not trying to contribute to it by letting entire dogs go to new homes.
It's not a way to get a cheap breeding dog. There's no cheap way to do it if it's to be done properly.

Cherry Blossom

slookie wrote: »

So if donedeal is full of cowboys, where do ye suggest getting a pup? Is there a Samoyed rescue place in the country?

Any Samoyed in rescue is likely to have originated in the same places, as said the rescue will not allow them to be bred from.

The Irish Samoyed dog club:

http://homepage.eircom.net/~sammyclub/

have a list of breeders in the country, it is possible that they will come with their paperwork endorsed so any pups from them are not allowed to be registered. You may also be asked to sign a contract stating that you will not breed from the dog, if you do they are likely to sue you for breech of contract and take the dog back.

If you are dead set on breeding the breeder can have the endorsements removed if the dog has been tested etc. and has been proven to be of breeding quality.

One thing I can guarantee, if you come across the same way you have here you won't even get a reply to your inquiry, so I suggest you do all the groundwork before contacting them.

The Sweeper

Just thinking about it - if I wanted to buy a dog so I could own a dog and possibly make some money putting it at stud, I certainly wouldn't buy a spitz breed. In my head I'm picturing the amount of money slookie would have to spend on training, behaviour consultations, rectifying the damage, the life-overhaul to fit in training and exercise and so on, plus just the basic costs associated with the dog - that's a LOT of stud fees...

Knine

The Sweeper wrote: »

Just thinking about it - if I wanted to buy a dog so I could own a dog and possibly make some money putting it at stud, I certainly wouldn't buy a spitz breed. ...

Absolutely. The reason why the OP has not seen many Samoyeds for sale is that they are not the breed for everyone. You won't see many puppy farmers with spitz breeds either as they can make far more money by breeding smaller breeds such as CKC's, bicheons etc.

I feel one of the problems is that people see donedeal etc and think they could get a dog and use it for stud or for numerous litters just to make money.

I also use another website and a person was looking for free bedding for her litter, she mentioned that she didnt get to collect all the bedding offered last time round. It turned out that she had a pair of dogs and had bred the bitch non stop back to back litters with her male dog. After making loads of money from the dog she wouldnt even buy it some bedding. Disgusting.

I also know other people posing as rescues who then go on to breed from the dogs they rescue.:mad::mad:

DBB

The Sweeper wrote: »

Just thinking about it - if I wanted to buy a dog so I could own a dog and possibly make some money putting it at stud, I certainly wouldn't buy a spitz breed. In my head I'm picturing the amount of money slookie would have to spend on training, behaviour consultations, rectifying the damage, the life-overhaul to fit in training and exercise and so on, plus just the basic costs associated with the dog - that's a LOT of stud fees...

Agreed. And a good point. However, the realistic side of me says that profit-driven breeders don't care if their dog needs training, behavioural help, or any other thing to improve the dog's welfare. After all, when the dog is shoved into a shed out of sight and out of mind, what matter if he barks a lot, chews stuff, develops stereotypies, etc?
However, you make a good point from the point of view of where the money is. I fully agree that if I wanted to make a profit from breeding, the Samoyed is not a breed the springs to mind as a big money maker. I've a fair idea what breeds make the money for profiteers, but the Sammie ain't one of them!;)

Knine

The IKC needs to cop on as well and stop registering back to back litters.

DBB

Couldn't agree more Knine... surely they have a system in place that they can check what dog is doing what with who!
I have two sets of IKC papers from Bichons here (rescued), from two seperate litters that are 4 months apart in age, bred by the same breeder. But both litters have the same parents!
How'd THAT happen?

Knine

I would have thought so too but I know it is happening and I know that the same people are also rescuing dogs and breeding from them. I can't really say too much here but I have recently majorly voiced my concerns at the above and even worse.

and the dog world is not a big place.

DBB

Knine wrote: »

I know that the same people are also rescuing dogs and breeding from them.

That is absolutely shocking.
But you know, there's a little bell ringing in my head that I've been told this before about someone who shall remain nameless. It's a few years since I heard it.
It's like the opposite of biting the hand that feeds you!:eek:
Dreadful.

Knine

DBB wrote: »

That is absolutely shocking.
But you know, there's a little bell ringing in my head that I've been told this before about someone who shall remain nameless. It's a few years since I heard it.
It's like the opposite of biting the hand that feeds you!:eek:
Dreadful.

Unfortunately that is quite mild but I can't really comment further on it and this is recent enough

DBB those papers you have may not be correct.

DBB

Knine wrote: »

DBB those papers you have may not be correct.

I have no doubt at all they're not correct.
It isn't physically possible that the same dam could have given birth to two litters 4 months apart, though I know some Bichons are now coming into heat 3 times a year.
But my question remains.. how'd that happen?
Somebody, somewhere is fiddling the paperwork and getting away with it.
The papers I have were from Bichons bought in a petshop, so it doesn't take a genius to know what sort of breeder was involved in producing them. It was by coincidence that I got the IKC papers. The certs appear very genuine. Either that or they're very, very good rip-offs.
So, how did the pups become registered?
I wrote to the IKC about it. I'm still awaiting a reply, 5 years later.:rolleyes:

Knine

Because money speaks volumes......

carwash_2006

Wow! I'm pretty sure I know where they were bought and who the breeder is DBB, without you telling me! They are somebody who is supposed to have a good reputation in the dog world, but in a way I'm not surprised as they are somebody who would get away with whatever they want in the IKC. Let's just say if you're writing the rule book it's fairly easy to make sure they don't apply to you.

Really disgusting. To be honest if I were looking to buy a really good pedigree dog, there are very few breeds that I would bother looking here for. England or further afield would be where I would look. There are one or 2 breeds that I know of people making a really good effort and if you're just looking for a good quality pet then the range widens slightly, but for breeding or showing there are so many that I wouldn't risk it here as I know what goes on and any of the really excellent breeders quite likely wouldn't sell me a really good dog anyway as I haven't been around the show ring.

Amzie

slookie wrote: »

So if donedeal is full of cowboys, where do ye suggest getting a pup? Is there a Samoyed rescue place in the country?

http://homepage.eircom.net/~sammyclub/ Samoyed website or IKC website for registered breeders. Get talking to some and you will find out. Any breeder that lets their pup go before 8 weeks is not reputable and the pup wont be socialised with his/her litter mates and mother. You would Also have to make sure parents have hip scores and even this dosent guarantee your pup will have a perfect hip score but it could help then he/she can be tested when they are 2 years. I neutered my male as he was hyper and now calmed down. I dont think their will be many people able to afford a puppy now, When I bought mine he was €500 but doubt you'd get that now so really you could be at a loss in the end of it.

Why dont you just get a samoyed as your pet they are so lovely and loyal and very intelligent, needs lots of exercise and attention but they are so worth it!!!:D:D

lil'bug

This makes me so sad and mad
there are soo many wonderful dogs needed homes and the op just wants to add to the problem
Sammies are wonderful dogs and i'm glad i own one, But he is a (neutered) pet not a money making machine

slookie

Amzie wrote: »

http://homepage.eircom.net/~sammyclub/ Samoyed website or IKC website for registered breeders. Get talking to some and you will find out.

Website last updated in 2002!!:rolleyes: Thanks for help anyway