Getting Samoyed - dog or bitch??

slookie

Hi all. I hope to get a Samoyed in the next few weeks. However I'm not sure whether to get a dog or a bitch. I don't mean to come across the wrong way but I'll be hoping to either breed off a bitch, or let the dog for stud. I've done a small bit of research but looking for more advice. The bitch has to be at least 2 before you can breed, for registration purposes, right? Just say she had a litter of 6 pups, what kind of charges would I be looking at to cover vet fees, registration etc, before I sold them on? I have all the facilities, indoor kennels, heat lamps etc. I know there would be alot of work, but could someone give me details of what I should be prepared for, for those 8 weeks until they are ready to go? Would it be an awful lot less hassle to get a dog and let him out to stud for €150 a go - would that figure be right? Would the demand for it be there? Any help appreciated.
Thanks

Chris_Heilong

So times are hard and you are looking for a way to make some money?

slookie

See, i knew someone would have a smart comment to make...:mad:

Sigma Force

It's a fair point I mean making money out of them shouldn't be the first concern. Obviously if you do breed you need to know how much your pups are worth but you will not know that until the pups are born and not all the pups may be worth the same amount because some might be 'better' breed standard wise.
So it's hard to tell.

You need to talk to your vet at the time to see how much they charge, vet fees vary and some give a discount for larger numbers. But on average vaccinations can cost €40 plus (usually more) per pup not incl. kennel cough. Microchips have to be done which can be €40 per dog as well.
Good quality food like Burns can cost anything from €47 ish to €57 for a 15kg bag. Then there's worming and unforseen costs.

A good responsible breeder that gets everything in order won't make much money out of pups, and people don't have the money anymore to buy dogs ..well some people do but in general you might find it difficult to sell pups.

At a guess and totally depending on what your own vet would charge each pup could cost you (providing you fully vaccinate..I don't understand how some breeders think it's ok to half vaccinate a pup) just over €130 but perhaps a breeder on here can give a clearer picture of costs.

No offence but your post does come across a little like money is the priority in breeding so you might get some stick for that. The main thing is to research the breed and ensure you have the time and money should anything go wrong eg C section, health issues etc.

Cherry Blossom

slookie wrote: »

See, i knew someone would have a smart comment to make...:mad:

You don't even own a dog yet and you are already counting the profits I'm not sure what sort of reaction you were expecting tbh.

If I were going to get a samoyed you can be sure that both parents were top quality, these aren't a working breed as such so that would mean champion show dogs, have you shown dogs before? You might have to wait years for a pup of this standard to become available to you unless you already have contacts and it's unlikely you would get a choice of male/female. You then have to wait till the pup is fully grown before you would actually know if its any good for breeding, you'd have to do your research on genetic problems prevalent in the breed and have full testing done for these prior to even considering breeding. Then you have to find a suitable mate, which is much harder than you think. (Do you know anything about the inbreeding coefficient?). If you aren't willing to do all this, you have no business breeding pedigree dogs imho.

All of this doesn't make you a breeder of champion show dogs either, just ordinary run of the mill pets, all this does is ensure that you aren't palming off sickly dogs on unsuspecting potential owners of the dogs you produce. Money doesn't come into it all, it will cost you a fortune, more than you could ever hope to make back from 'sales'.

slookie

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

You don't even own a dog yet and you are already counting the profits .

I actually have 2 other dogs. A boxer bitch and a boxer cross that are both neutered.


I'm not looking for a champion show dog...just a normal samoyed...doesnt have to be a show dog!

DBB

I'd suggest you give Samoyed Rescue a call and see how many unwanted Sammies she's rehoming, it'll give you an idea of the demand, and the amount of people who get rid of them within 24 months of buying them. Not that this matters to the people who bred them, as they've already made their money.
Now that I think of it, they're not a breed whose health problems are familiar to me. For my own info OP, would you mind giving me a rundown of some of the more common conditions they're prone to? Thanks!

Cherry Blossom

slookie wrote: »

I actually have 2 other dogs. A boxer bitch and a boxer cross that are both neutered.


I'm not looking for a champion show dog...just a normal samoyed...doesnt have to be a show dog!

Yes, that's what I thought, a 'normal' (pet-quality) samoyed isn't suitable for breeding at all, and shouldn't be bred from. It would be great if you could clarify what your motivation for breeding is if it's not for profit, I can't think of any other reason why someone would breed from a pet tbh.

Zapperzy

slookie wrote: »

I actually have 2 other dogs. A boxer bitch and a boxer cross that are both neutered.


I'm not looking for a champion show dog...just a normal samoyed...doesnt have to be a show dog!

If your intent on breeding and not showing at least get someone who is experienced with the breed to look over the dog and see if it has any major faults which would disqualify it from the ring.

I'm not sure what specific health problems samoyeds can suffer from thats for you to research but I would imagine at the very least parents should be hipscored before breeding. Regardless of whether you are breeding show quality or 'pet' quality pups (of which we already have way way too many of in Ireland being abandoned and put down every day) they should be healthy pups, and the only way you can ensure this is through health testing and not just a once over by a vet.

Say you get a bitch, you don't show her nor health test her, the only type of stud dog your going to get for her is an an unhealth-tested, unshown dog. Owners of health tested, successfully shown dogs are not going to want to use their studs on your bitch. The exact same goes for if you get a dog and plan on using him for stud. At the very least you should health test and only breed the dog to other health tested dogs (when the results show the dog is healthy of course).

What sort of a breeder are you buying this pup from? Are they themselves health testing or showing?

andreac

Slookie, can i ask your reason for wanting to breed your dog or bitch? You dont even know whether you want a dog or bitch yet have plans to breed either if or when you get them.

I own both a male and female rottweiler, both of which i show very successfully around Ireland at Championship shows. My male is fully health tested and is an Irish Champion, and is qualified for Crufts and has been used at stud, once, yes only once and he is nearly 5 years old. I have only ever been asked once to use him at stud and im am involved in dog showing in a big way and my male rottie is currently the top male rottweiler in Ireland. Do you see where im going with this??
What im trying to say is there isnt a market there for pedigree dogs, far from it actually so what makes you think you feel the need to breed from yours before you even show, health test etc etc?

I also have a female who is still only 14 months so is far too young for breeding. I still have to health test her and hopefully successfully show her to be a champion which is a very long, difficult and expensive process.

The thoughts of breeding her is nowhere on my list of things i plan to do unless i know i can def home at least 8-10 puppies. I would only be considering breeding her, if I am definately keeping a puppy or 2 from her to continue on hers and my males lines.

So can you see the point im trying to make?? Just because you own a pedigree doesnt mean you have to breed it and even more so if its only a pet, that should be the last thing on your mind.

Leave breeding to the experts and for fully health tested and superior quality dogs. The are more than enough pets around without adding to the problem of unwanted dogs.

slookie

So ye all mean to tell me that every dog for sale on Donedeal, for example, has been through this process? Showing, and health testing etc....I would seriously doubt it. Id bet only a small percentage would be!

andreac

slookie wrote: »

So ye all mean to tell me that every dog for sale on Donedeal, for example, has been through this process? Showing, and health testing etc....I would seriously doubt it. Id bet only a small percentage would be!

No they havent, and that is EXACTLY the reason i never, ever recommend anyone to buy a dog off that site, i actually despise it:mad:

Most of the dogs advertised on that site are from back yard breeders and puppy farmers and the amount of ridiculous designer breeds is disgusting to say the least.

So tell me again, why do you want to breed??

Cherry Blossom

slookie wrote: »

So ye all mean to tell me that every dog for sale on Donedeal, for example, has been through this process? Showing, and health testing etc....I would seriously doubt it. Id bet only a small percentage would be!

No, actually very few if any have, a lot of them however do end up keeping the vets in big houses and fancy cars. It's not really that hard to understand.

If top quality bitch x top quality sire over the course of 3 litter gives 1 top quality pup, 1 average show quality pup and 16 decent pet quality pups then random pet bitch x random pet sire gives you what exactly??

If course you are going to do what you want anyway, I have no interest in breeding dogs and very little interest in showing, but I will not hand over money to anyone who has less regard for a pup they are selling me than I do. Morally I wouldn't have the stomach for selling anything dodgy on to some poor unsuspecting muppet whether its partly their own fault or not, be it a dog, car or anything else. Maybe that's just me though!

slookie

Point proven. So the thousands of people advertising on donedeal are all wrong.

toadfly

slookie wrote: »

Point proven. So the thousands of people advertising on donedeal are all wrong.

Vast majority are, yes.

andreac

slookie wrote: »

Point proven. So the thousands of people advertising on donedeal are all wrong.

You havent proven any point but we have outlined the type of people that breed that are on that site, and if you go ahead and breed you will be just the same as those on that site.

Ill ask you again, why do you want to breed?

Cherry Blossom

slookie wrote: »

Point proven. So the thousands of people advertising on donedeal are all wrong.

Unfortunately the thousands of people unethically breeding dogs are what have caused the huge mess that virtually all pedigree breeds are in today, not just those that advertise on donedeal, but worldwide . It is also what fuels the massive anti-pedigree dog 'movement'. I for one think it worth trying to save what is left of them by putting a bit of thought into it. In my case that's going to be limited to where I source my pets from, but all anyone can do is the best within their own limits.

carwash_2006

slookie wrote: »

Point proven. So the thousands of people advertising on donedeal are all wrong.

So if 100 people jumped off a cliff you would happily follow without question?

Why do you think we have such a large overpopulation problem in our pounds?

MarthaMyDear

slookie wrote: »

Hi all. I hope to get a Samoyed in the next few weeks. However I'm not sure whether to get a dog or a bitch. I don't mean to come across the wrong way but I'll be hoping to either breed off a bitch, or let the dog for stud. I've done a small bit of research but looking for more advice. The bitch has to be at least 2 before you can breed, for registration purposes, right? Just say she had a litter of 6 pups, what kind of charges would I be looking at to cover vet fees, registration etc, before I sold them on? I have all the facilities, indoor kennels, heat lamps etc. I know there would be alot of work, but could someone give me details of what I should be prepared for, for those 8 weeks until they are ready to go? Would it be an awful lot less hassle to get a dog and let him out to stud for €150 a go - would that figure be right? Would the demand for it be there? Any help appreciated.
Thanks

Money-wise, it's probably cheaper to let the dog for stud as there's not a lot of profit in selling puppies in this day and age. Even then, people looking for dogs for stud are also quite hard to find.

Just as an example,a friend of mine has 2 Bichon Frise and a few years ago she was breeding them and selling them for hundreds. She put one into pup last year and she had to give away two of the pups for free as nobody was willing to pay money for them. If you were determined to get one or the other, I would get a male. Puppies that do not have the relevant health checks etc are hard to sell! I really wouldn't recommend any aspect of breeding at the moment!

Maybe get a Samoyed as a pet, they are lovely dogs. You could try advertising him for stud but I'm not sure if it would be worth your while!

carwash_2006

But even if you are just advertising for stud you should have all the relevant health checks done or else you are basically facilitating backyard breeding and are a part of running down the general health of some of our pedigree breeds. Not to mention assisting unhealthy pups into the world that could lead miserable lives and bankrupt their owners while breaking their hearts.

Breeding should never be considered a for profit venture.

Also if you are not showing to a champion level you are very unlikely to have people interested in your stud except where they want to make a quick buck off dubious quality pups.

slookie

Thanks for the last 2 replies!

andreac

slookie wrote: »

Thanks for the last 2 replies!

I give up, dont know why we bother...:mad:

slookie

They replied to the questions I asked. That is the purpose of this board. And you can sleep tight...I've decided to get a male, and possibly stud him after a few years.

andreac

slookie wrote: »

They replied to the questions I asked. That is the purpose of this board. And you can sleep tight...I've decided to get a male, and possibly stud him after a few years.

Well good luck with that, im sure you will make a fortune on an un health tested, not shown, un proven pet Sammie, they will be queuing up to use your dog, not....:rolleyes:

slookie

Yup I'm sure your right...that's why there's hardly none for sale on donedeal! You can't solve all the world's little problems!

DBB

Any thoughts yet, OP, on telling me a little more about the inherited conditions Sammies tend to suffer from?

Look, I hope what's been said here can talk you out of what is, IMO, an ill-considered decision.
It's just that, for me, I can't help feeling angry at people who breed for the hell of it/for money/without knowledge of the breed etc. My anger is not just for ethical reasons such as the horrendous dog overpopulation problem they are directly spewing pups into, the fact that once the pup is sold, the door is closed, the fact that one more ill-informed member of the public is duped into buying a crap quality dog for a stupid amount of money. That all annoys me.
But what really annoys me, OP, is that I run a rescue, and every year I work myself to a wreck, completely voluntarily, to mop up the mess created by the likes of breeders and the outlet Donedeal provides them.
I'm the one who has to watch the humiliated owner surrender the dog they can't manage because the breed is entirely unsuitable for them (a good breeder wouldn't have sold them a pup. A donedealer doesn't care).
I'm the one who has to rehabilitate the DOZENS, yes DOZENS of dogs that are completely untrained, neglected, filthy, often with health problems, that were originally bought from Donedeal.
I'm the one who has to pay to keep each dog until I rehome him.
I'm the one who has to trundle over to the vets to get them neutered, vaccinated, microchipped, and patched up if they're sick. And pay for it.
I'm the one who has to organise the home visits that should have been done when the dog was a puppy, by their breeder.
I'm the one who has to drive all over the country picking them up, bringing them to the vet, bringing them to foster homes, bringing them to their new homes.
I'm the one who makes the dozens of calls every week to make sure my recently-adopted dogs are settling in okay.
I'm the one who, every Monday monring (it's always mad after the weekend), takes another barrage of calls from people who can't keep their dog any more.
"Where'd you find your dog's breeder?" I always ask
"Online" about 90% of them say.
"Donedeal?" I ask.
"Yes", they say, often followed by "Never again."
All voluntarily. At my own expense. And I also have to work, pay my mortgage etc, just like everyone else.

Remembering that I am one person on my own, there are many, many more rescues out there just like me.

So, if you'll excuse me, it is very difficult not to get annoyed at the posts you're making.
You, and breeders on that site, exhaust me, literally. If only every ad on donedeal could go towards paying me a wage to do breeders' dirty work for them... Not that I could accept it.. it's dirty money.
People like me are desperately trying to save the production line of pups, it's like trying to empty a bath with a thimble. Then these online sites, and the outlet they provide to profit-driven breeders, just keep turning the tap.
Good luck to you OP. If you'd like to PM me I can give you the details of the Sammie Rescue lady I know... you could give her number out to the buyers of your pups for when they need it.
Sigh.

andreac

They might be for sale or advertised, doesnt mean they are actually getting the money for them. There are loads of dogs being given away as they cant sell them.
If thats the reason you want to stud your dog then shame on you, and i dont care if i get a ban for saying that. The country is in the state its in with animal welfare because people like you want to breed just because and because you think theres money to be made.:mad:

You are just as bad as those back yard breeders if thats the route you are going down.:mad:

DBB

slookie wrote: »

Yup I'm sure your right...that's why there's hardly none for sale on donedeal! You can't solve all the world's little problems!

Wow.
Well, you know what they say about arguing with a fool.
Or wrestling a pig.

Cherry Blossom

Unfortunately it's a cold fact of life that as long as people are making decent music, designing decent clothes and breeding quality pets there are always going to be chancers producing knock offs. Personally my biggest problem with the whole thing is that there are tight laws in place for the first two examples there, I've never seen a child have their heart broken because adidas is spelt wrong on their trainers :rolleyes:.

It's not surprising I gave up on most of the human race a long time ago.

Zapperzy

slookie wrote: »

They replied to the questions I asked. That is the purpose of this board. And you can sleep tight...I've decided to get a male, and possibly stud him after a few years.

Are you going to health test or are you just thinking of the money? Because if it's just for the money sadly your just contributing to this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6xI7xt99zA&feature=related

slookie wrote: »

Yup I'm sure your right...that's why there's hardly none for sale on donedeal! You can't solve all the world's little problems!

I'm speechless at your last line. You can't solve all of the worlds problems so you just contribute to them instead. :mad: Hell you could apply that to anything.
In my last post I tried to help, suggest health testing etc. are you going to listen to any of that?

ISDW

slookie wrote: »

Yup I'm sure your right...that's why there's hardly none for sale on donedeal! You can't solve all the world's little problems!

Classic. So you know that overpopulation of badly bred dogs is a problem, and you want to add to it. Your dog is going to be so lucky to have you, as you're such a caring person, but hey, as long as you make a couple of hundred euros, all is well with the world.

Wonder how your plans will pan out if animal welfare and dog breeding legislation does come in before your stunning dog is ready for studding? Better keep the number for Samoyed rescue handy, so that you can get rid of your dog when you realise you can't make any money off him. Maybe just think about it logistically - you will pay a few hundred for a pup (probably not too much though, as no reputable breeder will sell to you, so your dog with be from a puppy farm) then you will have to pay the vets fees and food bills for the dog's life. Unless you are pimping your dog out every couple of months, you aren't going to make any money off him. The only people who will be willing to use him are bybs and puppy farmers, and why would they want to pay someone money when they can have their own sire in their shed and use him whenever they want?

I truly love your logic. If hundreds of people do something ethically and morally wrong, then its okay for you to do it as well. How many people are in prison for breaking the law? But if they did it, surely its okay for everyone else to do it too? Very childish way of living your life.