Teacher pay

doc_17

dekbhoy wrote: »

Teachers have a bloody cheek to even argue about pay cuts, rates of pay etc.
Excellent time off ,summer,easter,christmas, mid term breaks , holy days , bank holidays , short working weeks .
According to the Mc carthy report 31 uncertified sick days per year , 3 which can be taken successively without a doctors cert. Guaranteed pensions , courses attended during time to be awarded as time in lieu against working time during year, extra allowances for supervising and taking on roles such as class teacher , year head etc and there are lots of these titles which brings pay up higher.This is only a few things i am aware of . I have no doubt there are little privledges to be gained that the majority of people dont know about.

dont think many would argue that it can be a stressful job but in the whole it is an excellent career, also not saying every teacher in Ireland gets all these benefits but i reckon a lot do.

If only you were aware of how wrong you on so many of those things

daddydick wrote: »

I hope you realise how good you have it.

I'm not trying to troll or wind you up but for every hour you teach I work 3 and get damn all time to myself. Averaged about 50 hours a week for the last 2 years, or 2,500 hours in the year with no overtime allowed!

Enjoy your time off, I know it is well deserved but please think off us folk who are working ridiculous hours around the clock to make less money than you guys!

Our teaching hours are not equal to our actual working hours...surprised at anybody not knowing this

munkus wrote: »

Hi ET,

I think that it is ridiculous that you get annual leave consessions for attending training courses. In most professions, training courses are mandatory in order to develop skills and to keep them abreast of developments. It's these kind of concessions that drive people crazy

If you were in a company and had to be trained in a new skill would you happily do it on your holidays?

Teachers are perceived as an easy target.....they'll probably get the blame for the global financial crisis and London riots if this thread goes on any longer!!

Boober Fraggle

doc_17 wrote: »

I
Teachers are perceived as an easy target.....they'll probably get the blame for the global financial crisis and London riots if this thread goes on any longer!!

Already happening. Sky News this morning blaming the school holidays :rolleyes:

There is no point in arguing with non-teachers about the work that goes into teaching outside of class contact time. People don't see it, and don't get it, simple as.

dekbhoy

doc_17 wrote: »

If only you were aware of how wrong you on so many of those things




Our teaching hours are not equal to our actual working hours...surprised at anybody not knowing this



If you were in a company and had to be trained in a new skill would you happily do it on your holidays?

Teachers are perceived as an easy target.....they'll probably get the blame for the global financial crisis and London riots if this thread goes on any longer!!

yes if i had nearly 6 months of the bloody things.......
teachers arguing that they only get paid for the time worked suggests to me their equivalent hourly rate of pay is feckin collossal considering time worked.

E.T.

dekbhoy, you still haven't answered the question I asked in my post about how you're working 3 times the hours that we teach (not counting out of school hours)? If you're going to come and give out to us about our job (does it make you feel better about yourself in some way??), then you should be able to give a decent reply, not just another rant.

doc_17

dekbhoy wrote: »

yes if i had nearly 6 months of the bloody things.......
teachers arguing that they only get paid for the time worked suggests to me their equivalent hourly rate of pay is feckin collossal considering time worked.

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

You don't have a notion!

An Bradán Feasa

dekbhoy wrote: »

yes if i had nearly 6 months of the bloody things.......
teachers arguing that they only get paid for the time worked suggests to me their equivalent hourly rate of pay is feckin collossal considering time worked.

I wouldn't call it colossal. Don't forget, teachers are highly-trained professionals and deserve to be paid a professional's salary.

E.T.

This is a very relevant point - some boards have calls for our pay to be cut by 50%.

I find this quote from JFK very relevant right now (no offense meant to plumbers, it's the example JFK used, I think ye earn every penny!)

“Modern cynics and skeptics see no harm in paying those to whom they entrust the minds of their children a smaller wage than is paid to those to whom they entrust the care of their plumbing.”
John F. Kennedy

TheDriver

ever notice people who think teachers are untrained, never went to college and hence should be paid the same as a labourer on a building site. That said, they were being paid more then us at the height of it.
We don't get any perks other than the obvious ones, it annoys me that people in companies with positions that require the same amount of training as us i.e. hon degree, diploma, masters even and get company car/healthcare/bonus/travel/expenses and then have the audascity to give out about teachers. Our holidays are great, i love them but the rest of the year is hard work and no perks whatsoever bar a pay cheque.

Remember the good times when you had mad Christmas party nights in hotels and I remember being the only group that had to pay for it themselves in the whole big function room, hence why the food etc was crap, most people didn't care.

Feeona

Great post OP, well constructed and viable. It's a pity responses against it have either been lazy and badly thought out or contained erroneous information without any links to back them up.

It's very hard to have a proper discussion with people who just complain about 'the holidays yiz get'. I'd love to go into an office and tell the workers there that you can't go to the toilet until your break. I'd also love to tell them that they can't get their break because they have to deal with a child with a nosebleed. I'd also love to see their reaction when the parent of a client comes up to their working space and yells them out of it for saying their son/daughter was out of order, while trying to deal with 29 other clients at the same time. I'd also love to see them trying to meet their targets and getting their work done without someone coming up to their desk saying My head hurts/John took my pencil/When's small break?/What are we doing now?....etc ten or twenty times a day. I'd love to see their reaction when they realise there's only one photocopier which regularly breaks down and which has a queue of ten people waiting to use it before the school bell goes.

Now of course, people will come back and say we all have tough jobs, we all have difficult things to deal with and I agree. I worked in payroll offices/banks/laboratories before I became a teacher. When I worked in those places however I never had people telling me my job was easy. I never had people telling me I don't deserve the pay I get. I never had people telling me I don't deserve the holidays I get. I never had people telling me that I didn't deserve my bonus at Christmas, or the free Christmas party (both of which I got in previous jobs, not while teaching).

Posts about how 'easy' teachers have it are really tiresome, especially when they're backed up by all hype and no fact and it's patently obvious that the poster wants to grind an axe rather than take part in reasoned discussion.

hunnybunny

Oooh this is really interesting. I have to say from a teacher who is working abroad point of view Irish teachers seem to have a cushier number in some ways (certainly in comparison to England). In fact a common activity amongst Irish teachers working in England is to moan about how much easier Irish teachers have it.

1. Pay

I would say Irish teachers are paid pretty well in relation to the hours they are expected to work. In England it starts on 21k which isn't marvellous considering you have been in university for 5 years.

2. Hours

E.T. wrote: »

I teach 9-3 Mon to Fri, so that's 30 hours a week (I'm counting lunchtime because even the days I'm not on official supervision, we're all on indoor first aid and supervising pupils staying in, there is no time to yourself, or proper break). Usually 4 at the earliest before I leave school, often 5:30 to 6. 7 the odd time, but that wouldn't be more than a few times a term.

I officially teach from 8.15 - 3.00
However I am expected to be in school at 7.15 or you'll get tutted at if you arrive any later. On average I leave school at 5 though once or twice a week I would stay until 7 or 8 or until the long suffering caretaker gets fed up and kicks me out :-).I think 7.15 - 5 are fairly standard working hours. In addition we have a 2 hour long staff meeting that is compulsory hence the staying until 7 or 8. Plus afterschool clubs are more or less compulsory. An Irish teacher friend said I ll feel like a part timer when I return to Ireland though in fairness my school is a particularly tough one.

3. Holidays

On average primary differs slightly overall. In England we have 6 weeks in summer compared to the Irish 9 weeks. I think at primary level 9 weeks is slightly too long. This whole thing of secondary getting 3 months is ridiculous in my opinion. In England schools have to work through A levels and the rest of the school just doesn't just get the summer off and teachers aren't paid any extra for invigilating. Secondary and primary get the same amount of pay and holidays which I think is fair.

4. Planning
In England text books are almost a dirty word and most teacher recoil in horror if you suggest teaching from a text book alone. There is meant to be differentiated work for all groups and worksheets are tutted at. Many of my teacher friends do still teach from textbooks but I have heard they are backing away from this more and more. A good point would be that the English do receive a lot of funding for resources compared to Irish schools.

5. Inspections
Mention the word Ofsted in any school in England and a cold sweat will break out.:) School live in terror of Ofsted as they have the power to deem you unsatisfactory as a school or as an individual teacher, they can shut your school down, put you into special measures etc... They only have to give 2 days notice and you have to put on a show of a lifetime (rolleyes).I have talked to a few Irish teachers and inspections between the two countries do not seem in anyway comparable.

6. Discipline
This is more of a debatable one. From my own experience Irish children seemed better behaved. Then again my experience is in a nice green leafy suburb. In England I have witnessed chair throwing, spitting, running out of the classroom, TAs being assaulted and bruised with rulers and this is all at primary level. I haven't heard many stories like this in Dublin and most potential Irish PGCE goers have gone white in the face when I tell them stories from my school ;)I know behaviour is a concern for many schools in England

Some serious cons (from my point of view) to working in Ireland include class sizes. In England they are capped at 30. I also wouldn't appreciate the lack of money for resources. I have been able to plan amazing lessons with the resources my school has. I also wouldn't like the fact you can't opt out of your pension in the public service (I was quite shocked at that). I think it is the same for teachers?

I would love to return to Ireland to see the differences for myself. My experience in England has been tough but what doesn't kill makes you stronger.

dambarude

That's a good summary to read, thanks Hunnybunny.

The whole textbooks are a dirty word thing is paddled in teacher training here, but this doesn't seem to have had a major effect on actual practice. What you mention is definitely an extreme, but there probably is an over reliance on textbooks in some classrooms in Ireland.

The 'show of a lifetime' business is obviously ridiculous, because the fact that it is a show at all indicates how unrealistic it is.

Pay and hours are fairly black and white differences, and I'm sure have a major bearing on demand for teaching courses.

Many of the differences you mention may be seen as positives to those outside the profession (work longer for cheaper, frighten the life out of them during inspections, shur aren't they all lazy articles etc.). However, despite all you have mentioned England's education system is associated with negative rather than positive connotations. It doesn't seem to me to be anything to aspire to.

E.T.

I definitely wouldn't see England's education system as one to aspire too, even though a lot of our (no qualification in education) TDs seem to. The amount of articles in different papers on the amount of teachers who are regularly quitting the job is shocking.

muirthemne

dekbhoy wrote: »

Teachers have a bloody cheek to even argue about pay cuts, rates of pay etc.
Excellent time off ,summer,easter,christmas, mid term breaks , holy days , bank holidays , short working weeks .
According to the Mc carthy report 31 uncertified sick days per year , 3 which can be taken successively without a doctors cert. Guaranteed pensions , courses attended during time to be awarded as time in lieu against working time during year, extra allowances for supervising and taking on roles such as class teacher , year head etc and there are lots of these titles which brings pay up higher.This is only a few things i am aware of . I have no doubt there are little privledges to be gained that the majority of people dont know about.

dont think many would argue that it can be a stressful job but in the whole it is an excellent career, also not saying every teacher in Ireland gets all these benefits but i reckon a lot do.

These are all fair enough points if you are not of the teaching profession BUT does anyone realise how difficult it is to get to this stage. I am a fully qualified teacher of Irish and Geography yet have never had the paid holidays or benefits of paid sick days as I have been working as a substitute for the last 3 years.

Only the other day I went into my local post office to draw my stamps for the 3rd summer. The fella behind the counter then started to complain about how easy I have it with my 3 months holidays etc EVEN THOUGH i was claiming my jobseekers....OPEN YOUR EYES!!! It is disgraceful how we are viewed by society and I would like to see how the country would develop if teachers werent around to further the education of our young.
I am sick to death of hearing society complain about our 'handy' hours.....the school day is only so long....how are we expected to work more hours.

Does everyone think that copies/exams/assessments correct themselves during the night by Santas teacher elves.....I think not. Also do we all walk into our classes each day with work that was prepared by the fairy godmother of lesson planning??????

As for three months holidays.....how many teachers leave school on the last day of summer term not to return until 1st day of autumn term??? Junior Cert and Leaving Cert eats up June......July we may be correcting or supervising.......August are Leaving Cert results and generally preparation for new First years and exam classes....... Give me anyone who is willing to do all of this for minimum wage or less than we do it for......we study long enough to be left to do our job in peace without listening to every Tom, Dick and Harry complain about it. :mad:

spurious

My doctor works one and a half hours a day.
I know that for a fact as that is the only time he is in his surgery.

KILL FRANKENSTEIN!!!

<insert various disgruntled rabble noises here>

Feed ye not ye olde trolls.

michael999999

E.T. wrote: »

I definitely wouldn't see England's education system as one to aspire too, even though a lot of our (no qualification in education) TDs seem to. The amount of articles in different papers on the amount of teachers who are regularly quitting the job is shocking.

You are joking right. Half our TDs must still be drawing teachers pensions!

muirthemne

are you a teacher???? i am a firm believer that unless you are a person who experiences the life you complain about you cant really talk......no-one knows what its like to be a teacher only a teacher themselves......with these new conditions NQTs are not going to benefit from all these perks everyone seems to be talking about

p.s it is because of those TD's that MOST of us younger teachers can only dream about a permanent position :mad:

Benicetomonty

E.T. wrote: »

I definitely wouldn't see England's education system as one to aspire too, even though a lot of our (no qualification in education) TDs seem to. The amount of articles in different papers on the amount of teachers who are regularly quitting the job is shocking.

Agreed...and there's probably never been a worse time to regard the English system as anything positive considering recent performances of its graduates (amongst others of course) over the last week :rolleyes:

hunnybunny

dambarude wrote: »

That's a good summary to read, thanks Hunnybunny.

The whole textbooks are a dirty word thing is paddled in teacher training here, but this doesn't seem to have had a major effect on actual practice. What you mention is definitely an extreme, but there probably is an over reliance on textbooks in some classrooms in Ireland.

The 'show of a lifetime' business is obviously ridiculous, because the fact that it is a show at all indicates how unrealistic it is.

Pay and hours are fairly black and white differences, and I'm sure have a major bearing on demand for teaching courses.

Many of the differences you mention may be seen as positives to those outside the profession (work longer for cheaper, frighten the life out of them during inspections, shur aren't they all lazy articles etc.). However, despite all you have mentioned England's education system is associated with negative rather than positive connotations. It doesn't seem to me to be anything to aspire to.

There is no competition as to which country is best to teach in. There are some positives to the English system.
1. Money in schools is probably the best. I have to say I do agree with using a wide array of resources. I witnessed a lesson being taught in Dublin about measures and capacity with no practical work whatsoever :eek: It could have been such a fun lesson. I was completely switched off during school, as some lessons consisted of "turn to page 3 and answer the questions and please be quiet" (thank God I am a very auditory learner and pretty much taught myself through books). I am quick to say not all teachers were like this but it was common when I was growing up. I am sure new teachers are a bit more inspired to bring fun into the classroom. Though I must say it is impossible to be all singing and dancing all the time (as is expected in England). I do think that Irish schools would benefit from money being spent making lessons fun and interesting.

2. Holidays
I reckon things do need to change at secondary level in Ireland. 3 months is far too long. Even my teenage sister finds it boring and can't wait to go back.
To be quite frank they probably will change this. I also don't see why teachers are paid extra for invigilating as its within teaching hours (9-3). I know I am not paid for invigilating and organising SATs, it is just expected.


Apart from those two things I don't think much else needs changing in the Irish system. Irish teachers pay is probably the fairest in Europe. Romanian teachers get 300€ a month. I know French teachers on 17k a year. My Irish teacher friends are far better off than I am and far less stressed

Though I am worried that TDs are taking the bad points of the English system rather than the good. A friend recently told me there is a huge rise in paperwork. Paperwork is the bane of teaching in England and is no benefit to the children whatsoever.:rolleyes:


Funny enough in England there is loads of demand for teaching courses and jobs but many burn out within the first three years due excessive paperwork and stress. There is another big difference. In fact teaching is considered one of the most stressful occupations up there with policing and prison officers.

Behaviour can be extreme in some schools. Something like 40% of teacher leave the profession within the first three years many citing behaviour. England has a lot of social problems and ethnic tensions to contend with (similar to France). I suppose that is one reason you can't begin to compare the UK with Ireland.
Even though the media can bash us, I have had so many parents tell me " I wouldn't do your job for anything"

rainbowtrout

hunnybunny wrote: »

There is no competition as to which country is best to teach in. There are some positives to the English system.
1. Money in schools is probably the best. I have to say I do agree with using a wide array of resources. I witnessed a lesson being taught in Dublin about measures and capacity with no practical work whatsoever :eek: It could have been such a fun lesson. I was completely switched off during school, as some lessons consisted of "turn to page 3 and answer the questions and please be quiet" (thank God I am a very auditory learner and pretty much taught myself through books). I am quick to say not all teachers were like this but it was common when I was growing up. I am sure new teachers are a bit more inspired to bring fun into the classroom. Though I must say it is impossible to be all singing and dancing all the time (as is expected in England). I do think that Irish schools would benefit from money being spent making lessons fun and interesting.

hunnybunny, I read your first post and to be honest I was annoyed but I didn't reply but now I've read your second post and I'm still annoyed. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm getting the impression that you are Irish and are now teaching in the UK., but your posts smack of 'I've been through the Irish education system, and I'm teaching in the UK system so that makes me an expert on the Irish system' which is only a stones throw from the non-teachers who throw their opinions about on teaching regularly on this forum.

The comment I've bolded above sounds like something that happened in a lesson where you were a student and the points you make about teaching in this country imply that these methods of teaching are widespread throughout the country and somehow that the UK system is superior and that you are looking down on the Irish system now that you're not in it as a teacher or a student. You are comparing your experience from growing up to what exists know, which I'm assuming you have little or no experience of because you don't teach here.

There are a lot of teachers doing a lot of great work in their classrooms around the country, using different teaching methodologies other than reading out of the textbook, using differentiated teaching strategies, and making use of the (often scant) resources available to them.

I haven't used the textbook for my subject for the last 10 years because it's crap. The students don't even bring it to class.

hunnybunny wrote: »

2. Holidays
I reckon things do need to change at secondary level in Ireland. 3 months is far too long. Even my teenage sister finds it boring and can't wait to go back.
To be quite frank they probably will change this. I also don't see why teachers are paid extra for invigilating as its within teaching hours (9-3). I know I am not paid for invigilating and organising SATs, it is just expected.

Why is it too long? I don't unwind properly until the end of June. I find that I am in and out to the school during the month anyway to wrap stuff up from the end of the year, meet my students during the exams, correcting summer tests, sorting out the PLC timetable for next year etc etc.

If your sister is bored, it is not our job to entertain her, she can try looking for a job during the summer (hard at the moment I realise) or take part in some activity or summer camp. I haven't seen any studies to suggest that our 3 months off instead of the 6 weeks in the UK has been in anyway detrimental to the development of our students.

hunnybunny wrote: »

Apart from those two things I don't think much else needs changing in the Irish system. Irish teachers pay is probably the fairest in Europe. Romanian teachers get 300€ a month. I know French teachers on 17k a year. My Irish teacher friends are far better off than I am and far less stressed

The standard of living is completely different in Romania, it's hardly a like for like comparison. I'm sure if you compared the wages in any job in Romania with a job in Ireland there would be a huge discrepancy.

hunnybunny wrote: »

Funny enough in England there is loads of demand for teaching courses and jobs but many burn out within the first three years due excessive paperwork and stress. There is another big difference. In fact teaching is considered one of the most stressful occupations up there with policing and prison officers.

Perhaps our system, with better pay and longer holidays and less paperwork (for now) does help to reduce the stress levels on teachers. Not everyone in teaching here is breezing around the place stress free though. There are tough students in this country too. Referring back to your other post, we too have students who will throw things at teachers, hit teachers and storm out of classrooms.

I suppose the question is, if you find so many flaws with the UK system, why are you working there? To me it sounds like you are just having a gripe about conditions we have that would be seen to be better that what you have in the UK (holidays and pay).

There are a few teachers in my school who taught in the UK and I have yet to hear them say that the system over there was superior in any way.

Oh and class numbers (at secondary level) are max 30 in a non-practical class and 24 in a practical. You mentioned that 30 was the max in the UK, it's the same here.

To be honest it just really annoys me to see a teacher picking over the Irish education system the same way non teachers do all the time when they're not teaching in it.

theLuggage

Have to agree with rainbowtrout on a few points here. I know plenty of teachers who have interactive classes and teach outside of the textbook - definitely much more than when I was in school!

Also know a few teachers who have taught in the UK and they certainly don't think our holidays are too long. In fact one said in her school they did no effective teaching in the last few weeks as the students are just too tired, that the year in UK is too long for them.

A point that really annoys me is comparing pay without comparing tax rates - again a friend of mine who worked in the UK has told me that although we get paid better here gross, after tax we actually come home with less :rolleyes::rolleyes: not sure how valid this is now, as she taught there a good while ago but its still something to remember. I think comparing take home pay would be more accurate.

hunnybunny

hunnybunny, I read your first post and to be honest I was annoyed but I didn't reply but now I've read your second post and I'm still annoyed. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm getting the impression that you are Irish and are now teaching in the UK., but your posts smack of 'I've been through the Irish education system, and I'm teaching in the UK system so that makes me an expert on the Irish system' which is only a stones throw from the non-teachers who throw their opinions about on teaching regularly on this forum. The comment I've bolded above sounds like something that happened in a lesson where you were a student and the points you make about teaching in this country imply that these methods of teaching are widespread throughout the country and somehow that the UK system is superior and that you are looking down on the Irish system now that you're not in it as a teacher or a student. You are comparing your experience from growing up to what exists know, which I'm assuming you have little or no experience of because you don't teach here.

I based this on the month I spent in Irish primary and secondary schools prior to my PGCE. I saw some great examples of practice but far too many teachers still just using books. Also teaching friends do still tell me textbooks are overused especially at primary level which I think is too young. Boring lessons can result in behaviour problems and underachievement.

There are a lot of teachers doing a lot of great work in their classrooms around the country, using different teaching methodologies other than reading out of the textbook, using differentiated teaching strategies, and making use of the (often scant) resources available to them.

I haven't used the textbook for my subject for the last 10 years because it's crap. The students don't even bring it to class.

I didn't say there weren't good teachers in Ireland as I said in my last post before this "some"

Why is it too long? I don't unwind properly until the end of June. I find that I am in and out to the school during the month anyway to wrap stuff up from the end of the year, meet my students during the exams, correcting summer tests, sorting out the PLC timetable for next year etc etc.

Yes and we correct exams in our own time leading up to the end of term as well as working with the children and through our 6 week holidays. We just deal with it. Children need that time to consolidate their learning, take their end of year exams, undergo extra assessments etc.

If your sister is bored, it is not our job to entertain her, she can try looking for a job during the summer (hard at the moment I realise) or take part in some activity or summer camp. I haven't seen any studies to suggest that our 3 months off instead of the 6 weeks in the UK has been in anyway detrimental to the development of our students.

Its time better spent catching up in areas of maths and English she needs help in. My mother just ends up paying extra for tutors. I don't think being out of the school routine for long is helpful. 2 months would be more than enough to unwind.

The standard of living is completely different in Romania, it's hardly a like for like comparison. I'm sure if you compared the wages in any job in Romania with a job in Ireland there would be a huge discrepancy.

The Uk and France are quite comparable and there is a big difference. Eastern European costs of living are quite high and teacher salaries are pitiful compared to other professions.

Perhaps our system, with better pay and longer holidays and less paperwork (for now) does help to reduce the stress levels on teachers. Not everyone in teaching here is breezing around the place stress free though. There are tough students in this country too. Referring back to your other post, we too have students who will throw things at teachers, hit teachers and storm out of classrooms.

Yes conditions are much better in Ireland. There seems to be less scrutiny and teachers don't seem as afraid as they do in England. Yes there are tough students everywhere but teachers who have taught in Ireland and go to rougher parts do find behaviour very tough.

I suppose the question is, if you find so many flaws with the UK system, why are you working there? To me it sounds like you are just having a gripe about conditions we have that would be seen to be better that what you have in the UK (holidays and pay).

There are a few teachers in my school who taught in the UK and I have yet to hear them say that the system over there was superior in any way.

Firstly teaching job is a teaching job. Its better than sitting on the dole queue or waiting for supply in Ireland. When things do improve I ll have lots to put on my CV when I decide to go elsewhere. Also from an international point of view there are lots of British curriculum schools that specify and prefer teachers with English National Curriculum experience. That was a key factor in my decision to complete a PGCE in England.
The only time I find the English system better is when you have a super-dedicated teacher in a very good school also British schools tend to be the best when abroad. Overall I wouldn't prefer it compared to Ireland but there are some positives.

Oh and class numbers (at secondary level) are max 30 in a non-practical class and 24 in a practical. You mentioned that 30 was the max in the UK, it's the same here.

In primary as well? When I was observing there 35 in the class unless the school is doing something they shouldn't? I was talking as a primary teacher.

To be honest it just really annoys me to see a teacher picking over the Irish education system the same way non teachers do all the time when they're not teaching in it.

Irish teachers do seem to have much better pay and conditions than their European counterparts. I am not saying its their fault I was just pointing that in comparison they are doing pretty good.

hunnybunny

A point that really annoys me is comparing pay without comparing tax rates - again a friend of mine who worked in the UK has told me that although we get paid better here gross, after tax we actually come home with less not sure how valid this is now, as she taught there a good while ago but its still something to remember. I think comparing take home pay would be more accurate.

A teaching friend of mine with same experience comes out with €500 more than I do. Thats not too bad but she has no opt out of her pensions so in effect its almost a tax but thats the same for all public servants no?. I also pay far more tax on my English salary than I ever did on my Irish one.

theLuggage

Yeah just googled tax rates out of interest. In Ireland its 20% up to 32,800 and in UK its 20% up to 35000 sterling which converts to roughly 39,500 so we'd all be better off earning in the UK.

TheDriver

hunnybunny wrote: »

I based this on the month I spent in Irish primary and secondary schools prior to my PGCE.

:rolleyes:

E.T.

What good is it doing anyone to keep comparing the English and Irish systems?

freire

Hunnybunny - as E.T. asked, what's the point in comparing the two systems?

It's pretty annoying to have a fellow teacher come on here and criticise the Irish 'way of doing things'. Whatever that might be. But you seem to be a bit of an expert on both countries, somehow.

By your own admission you spent one month in primary and secondary schools. I'm not sure how many schools you've spent time in, or indeed how many teachers you observed in that time, but I'm sure it can't have been very many.

With all due respect, your posts have come across as quite immature to myself personally. Not to mention condescending and patronising. The way you've portrayed the Irish education system and the teachers working within it one would think we'd just climbed out of the hedge schools.

While your opinions and musings on the English system are valid, and I suppose have some merit, as you've worked/are working in it, you really can't speak with any authority on the Irish system.

There really is a snide tone to your last few posts, whether intentional or not I'm not sure. It could insult a great many innovative, hard working Irish teachers to be told by another that they're basically behind the curve by 30 years with their teaching methods. They overuse textbooks. Their classes aren't dynamic, interactive, exciting, interesting.

I mean, really? You think in England every teacher is a wonder teacher? And that in Ireland we are all a bit backward.

Not only that but we don't have a tough clientele. And we get too much time off. And are over paid.

It seems to me the sum of your posts is;
In England the kids are tougher. The teachers are better. The holidays are shorter because the teachers are better and more earnest, dilligent, hard working, committed. The pay isn't as good but the teachers don't mind as they're so much better, committed etc.

In Ireland we've got our pampered feet under the table, conduct our classes like a convent school from the '50s, and don't have any truck with all that new fangled nonsense.

Have you got a lot to learn?

implausible

E.T. wrote: »

What good is it doing anyone to keep comparing the English and Irish systems?

Well, it seems to be all the Dept has done in the last few years. They seem to regard a system full of paperwork to be the ideal to aspire to, hence all the policies, planning and meetings that we now have. It is beyond me how making us all sit in the school for an extra 100 hours a year is going to improve any student's grade one bit. I would agree that we need more meetings, but having the time and place of them dictated to me is not exactly motivating me. A form-filling exercise that keeps Joe Public happy, but will not help any student.

The only other point I have to make re: the English system is this: given the choice between a state exam system where profit-making companies set the exams and invigilated by the students' own teachers and a system where an independent state-run body sets the exams and organises invigilation, I know which I'd chose for its integrity.

dannyreillyboy

I am employed full time in education but not as a teacher but I train technology to full classrooms of students on a weekly basis in every age range. I also train teachers in technology. In a recent conversation it was suggested to me that teachers are struggling to get time out and sub-cover for professional development and it was fairly promptly put back to me that teachers should be forced to undertake mandatory professional training sessions during their summer holidays. I am totally in favour of this and think it would reflect well on the profession given the world we now live in.

Before anyone jumps down my throat, I am aware that teachers often partake in training before classes return at the end of the summer but this rarely extends to more than a week, it is not enough. ((Exam supervision and moderation in my eyes is separate, paid work so has no weight.)) It should not even be up for debate, the time off that teachers get when considered alongside their salaries can not continue.

Regardless of how tiring or exhausting the profession may be, lengthy summer holidays should be the first thing reviewed as a means of making schools more effective and efficient. Of course teachers will disagree with this!

I respect the fact that students get this time off but teachers do not need this amount of time off. Give the students 3 months off but make teachers work up to half of that to focus on school management issues, lesson planning, up-skilling and professional development! After all, they ARE getting paid public money when they are sitting at home. Offer them the option to opt out of this but at the loss of pay.

I believe teachers work hard for the salary they get but I don't think any profession should be entitled to 4 months off at full pay each year, particularly when it is public money!

Maybe if teachers agreed that it was time to review this, then the public might get off their backs about salary! But as long as the unions continue to hold the state to ransom, I'm sure things will never change and this will continue to fuel the perception of teaching as a soft profession amongst the public!

implausible

dannyreillyboy wrote: »

Give the students 3 months off but make teachers work up to half of that to focus on school management issues, lesson planning, up-skilling and professional development! After all, they ARE getting paid public money when they are sitting at home. Offer them the option to opt out of this but at the loss of pay.

This is the word I have a problem with - make them work. It implies that we don't work outside of school hours. It is what has informed the Croke Park agreement - make the teachers do an extra hour per week. The result? Yes, we have to stay in school for extra hours nearly every fortnight, so Joe Public can see teachers' cars outside the school. We are being made to work alright. But, does anyone give a sh*t what that work is? I'll tell you - it is the entire school having meetings at the exact same time - meetings that do not produce anything except resentment and which do not save the Government or Joe Public A RED CENT.

Do you seriously think that teachers sit on their asses all summer? I spend a lot of time planning for the following year and getting resources. I spent nearly a full week writing out a pointless policy. If I did not plan and do work outside of school hours, I would be a crap teacher and I can assure you, I am certainly not! Now, they want to make us stay in school and shoehorn that type of work into a two hour meeting. Will the students benefit? No. Will my teaching improve because of this? Unlikely. Will any money be saved? Er.....no!

TheDriver

people only have to be in a school for a day and realise the vast majority of teachers are working flat out all day. I find myself on the go non stop from 8am to 5pm, sometimes longer with a 10 min lunchbreak and when mid term comes along, I am fit to collapse. Try having teenagers coming up all day asking about stuff, parents ringing in etc etc. Teaching 30 kids is tough work, takes energy and no down time allowed. Try being a bit under the weather with a cold and having everyone understanding. Not a hope.
Shorter summer holidays aren't going to fix anything other than quinch the fire on some people's pitchforks