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Teacher pay
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05-08-2011 1:21pm#1I get really tired of these arguements about pay etc. Back in 2007 yes the OECD report showed that Ireland had the 5th highest pay. However obviously there have been cuts since then so that will no longer be the case. I really wish people would read up on statistics and not quote individual ones they heard on the radio/tv/friend. It gives statistics a bad name.
Here are some possible reasons that teachers pay in Ireland is good.
For example: On Newstalk this morning I heard again that 83% of the education budget is spent on teachers salaries so they should be cut etc etc. However when I go and read up on it we actually don’t spend huge amounts of money on education in relation to other countries. Perhaps if we did then it would no longer be 83% on salaries!
We rank 13th on the table of expenditure on education in the OECD report (http://www.oecd.org/document/55/0,3746,en_2649_37455_46349815_1_1_1_37455,00.html) but again these tables are slightly skewed if the government is providing free fees for higher education. The UK is actually spending more than us on this table in spite of charging fees to higher level education.
We were spending 0 .5% as a percentage of total public expenditure above the OECD average on education including all levels in 2007 (13.5%) which wasn’t all that great given we were supposed to be pushing the knowledge economy. In the last four years we have slashed education so we can expect this to have dropped considerably. The highest spenders were Iceland and Norway. As a percentage of GDP, the EU average in 2007 was 5.2%. In Ireland we were spending 4.9%, below the average.
We are constantly told, we get paid too much (addressed above) and our holidays are too long. Rather than writing my own essay (I have read the reports from the OECD and EU) here is some explanation for our holidays being reasonable.
Quoted from: http://www.asti.ie/index.php?id=38&no_cache=1&tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=430
"In his article “Teachers’ summer shutdown should not be a closed book” (June 9th, 2011), Brian O’Connell refers to an OECD table which shows that Irish second-level teachers are expected to be present in schools for 735 hours per annum compared to the OECD average of between 1,116 hours and 1,192 hours. The ASTI wishes to point out the following:
For 12 out of the 14 countries represented in this table, the aggregate number of hours includes time spent teaching and time spent carrying out non-teaching duties. In the case of two out of the 14 countries – Ireland and New Zealand – time spent carrying out non-teaching duties is not included. As a consequence, the stated number of hours for Ireland and New Zealand are significantly lower than they are for other countries.
Irish second-level teachers are required to teach for 735 hours per annum which is well above the OECD and European average of 682 and 646.5 hours respectively.
In addition, Irish second-level teachers are required to be present in their schools for additional time and are required to carry out a wide range of non-teaching duties. These duties include administrative tasks required by law, lesson planning, subject and whole school planning, liaising with external personnel (e.g. special educational needs organisers and school inspectors), setting and marking exams, and meeting with parents. This does not include voluntary work such as organising musicals, coaching teams and running the photography club which usually take place outside the school day or at weekends. Irish schools and teachers are renowned for their commitment to extra-curricular activities and research has shown that these activities benefit young people both personally and educationally.
There is no evidence to suggest that Irish teachers spend less time at school than the OECD average. In addition to teaching 735 hours per year, Irish second-level teachers carry out the same or similar non-teaching duties as their OECD counterparts."
I'm a maths teacher and having been teaching the new syllabus I am constantly having to remind my students to do the background work on figures in the newspaper and to question the reliability of statistics as there may be other causes. We are constantly bombarded with individual quotes without the analysis that is produced in these type of reports. Its hilarious as I try to get students to enjoy statistics that the thing they enjoy most is tearing them apart (particularly from the newspapers).
Anyways I suppose thats a rant after listening to Mary O'Rourke this morning actually say that teachers salaries are untouchable (obviously we've had no pay cuts??) and that class size increases of 1 are not ideal but will be fine. For a former minister of education to think that a change of 1 in the pupil teacher ratio equates to 1 extra child per class is insane. Did she learn nothing as a minister? .....
Breathe
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michael999999 wrote: »How are the 3 months summer holidays going, oh sorry secondary only get 2 months off in the summer!
No you were right the first time, it is actually 3 months.
And going great, thanks. 0 -
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Musicmental85 wrote: »Ya I stuck a post over there for the craic. More to see what happens than anything else....
You'll probably just get a load of tl;dr comments. People don't like to see facts that disprove their rant!0 -
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I can't help but wonder why so many non-teachers are interested in the Teaching & Lecturing forum
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Teachers have it fairly good, but so do lots of other people, in different ways. It's hard to see what it's like until you actually do it, but I can see why people think it's such an easy number. The question still remains though; if it's so cushy why don't you train and try it out yourselves?
I'm guessing a heavy padlock is needed for this thread at this stage?:pac:0 -
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That's a good summary to read, thanks Hunnybunny.
The whole textbooks are a dirty word thing is paddled in teacher training here, but this doesn't seem to have had a major effect on actual practice. What you mention is definitely an extreme, but there probably is an over reliance on textbooks in some classrooms in Ireland.
The 'show of a lifetime' business is obviously ridiculous, because the fact that it is a show at all indicates how unrealistic it is.
Pay and hours are fairly black and white differences, and I'm sure have a major bearing on demand for teaching courses.
Many of the differences you mention may be seen as positives to those outside the profession (work longer for cheaper, frighten the life out of them during inspections, shur aren't they all lazy articles etc.). However, despite all you have mentioned England's education system is associated with negative rather than positive connotations. It doesn't seem to me to be anything to aspire to.
There is no competition as to which country is best to teach in. There are some positives to the English system.
1. Money in schools is probably the best. I have to say I do agree with using a wide array of resources. I witnessed a lesson being taught in Dublin about measures and capacity with no practical work whatsoever :eek: It could have been such a fun lesson. I was completely switched off during school, as some lessons consisted of "turn to page 3 and answer the questions and please be quiet" (thank God I am a very auditory learner and pretty much taught myself through books). I am quick to say not all teachers were like this but it was common when I was growing up. I am sure new teachers are a bit more inspired to bring fun into the classroom. Though I must say it is impossible to be all singing and dancing all the time (as is expected in England). I do think that Irish schools would benefit from money being spent making lessons fun and interesting.
2. Holidays
I reckon things do need to change at secondary level in Ireland. 3 months is far too long. Even my teenage sister finds it boring and can't wait to go back.
To be quite frank they probably will change this. I also don't see why teachers are paid extra for invigilating as its within teaching hours (9-3). I know I am not paid for invigilating and organising SATs, it is just expected.
Apart from those two things I don't think much else needs changing in the Irish system. Irish teachers pay is probably the fairest in Europe. Romanian teachers get 300€ a month. I know French teachers on 17k a year. My Irish teacher friends are far better off than I am and far less stressed
Though I am worried that TDs are taking the bad points of the English system rather than the good. A friend recently told me there is a huge rise in paperwork. Paperwork is the bane of teaching in England and is no benefit to the children whatsoever.:rolleyes:
Funny enough in England there is loads of demand for teaching courses and jobs but many burn out within the first three years due excessive paperwork and stress. There is another big difference. In fact teaching is considered one of the most stressful occupations up there with policing and prison officers.
Behaviour can be extreme in some schools. Something like 40% of teacher leave the profession within the first three years many citing behaviour. England has a lot of social problems and ethnic tensions to contend with (similar to France). I suppose that is one reason you can't begin to compare the UK with Ireland.
Even though the media can bash us, I have had so many parents tell me " I wouldn't do your job for anything"0 -
hunnybunny wrote: »There is no competition as to which country is best to teach in. There are some positives to the English system.
1. Money in schools is probably the best. I have to say I do agree with using a wide array of resources. I witnessed a lesson being taught in Dublin about measures and capacity with no practical work whatsoever :eek: It could have been such a fun lesson. I was completely switched off during school, as some lessons consisted of "turn to page 3 and answer the questions and please be quiet" (thank God I am a very auditory learner and pretty much taught myself through books). I am quick to say not all teachers were like this but it was common when I was growing up. I am sure new teachers are a bit more inspired to bring fun into the classroom. Though I must say it is impossible to be all singing and dancing all the time (as is expected in England). I do think that Irish schools would benefit from money being spent making lessons fun and interesting.
hunnybunny, I read your first post and to be honest I was annoyed but I didn't reply but now I've read your second post and I'm still annoyed. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm getting the impression that you are Irish and are now teaching in the UK., but your posts smack of 'I've been through the Irish education system, and I'm teaching in the UK system so that makes me an expert on the Irish system' which is only a stones throw from the non-teachers who throw their opinions about on teaching regularly on this forum.
The comment I've bolded above sounds like something that happened in a lesson where you were a student and the points you make about teaching in this country imply that these methods of teaching are widespread throughout the country and somehow that the UK system is superior and that you are looking down on the Irish system now that you're not in it as a teacher or a student. You are comparing your experience from growing up to what exists know, which I'm assuming you have little or no experience of because you don't teach here.
There are a lot of teachers doing a lot of great work in their classrooms around the country, using different teaching methodologies other than reading out of the textbook, using differentiated teaching strategies, and making use of the (often scant) resources available to them.
I haven't used the textbook for my subject for the last 10 years because it's crap. The students don't even bring it to class.hunnybunny wrote: »2. Holidays
I reckon things do need to change at secondary level in Ireland. 3 months is far too long. Even my teenage sister finds it boring and can't wait to go back.
To be quite frank they probably will change this. I also don't see why teachers are paid extra for invigilating as its within teaching hours (9-3). I know I am not paid for invigilating and organising SATs, it is just expected.
Why is it too long? I don't unwind properly until the end of June. I find that I am in and out to the school during the month anyway to wrap stuff up from the end of the year, meet my students during the exams, correcting summer tests, sorting out the PLC timetable for next year etc etc.
If your sister is bored, it is not our job to entertain her, she can try looking for a job during the summer (hard at the moment I realise) or take part in some activity or summer camp. I haven't seen any studies to suggest that our 3 months off instead of the 6 weeks in the UK has been in anyway detrimental to the development of our students.hunnybunny wrote: »Apart from those two things I don't think much else needs changing in the Irish system. Irish teachers pay is probably the fairest in Europe. Romanian teachers get 300€ a month. I know French teachers on 17k a year. My Irish teacher friends are far better off than I am and far less stressed
The standard of living is completely different in Romania, it's hardly a like for like comparison. I'm sure if you compared the wages in any job in Romania with a job in Ireland there would be a huge discrepancy.hunnybunny wrote: »Funny enough in England there is loads of demand for teaching courses and jobs but many burn out within the first three years due excessive paperwork and stress. There is another big difference. In fact teaching is considered one of the most stressful occupations up there with policing and prison officers.
Perhaps our system, with better pay and longer holidays and less paperwork (for now) does help to reduce the stress levels on teachers. Not everyone in teaching here is breezing around the place stress free though. There are tough students in this country too. Referring back to your other post, we too have students who will throw things at teachers, hit teachers and storm out of classrooms.
I suppose the question is, if you find so many flaws with the UK system, why are you working there? To me it sounds like you are just having a gripe about conditions we have that would be seen to be better that what you have in the UK (holidays and pay).
There are a few teachers in my school who taught in the UK and I have yet to hear them say that the system over there was superior in any way.
Oh and class numbers (at secondary level) are max 30 in a non-practical class and 24 in a practical. You mentioned that 30 was the max in the UK, it's the same here.
To be honest it just really annoys me to see a teacher picking over the Irish education system the same way non teachers do all the time when they're not teaching in it.0 -
Have to agree with rainbowtrout on a few points here. I know plenty of teachers who have interactive classes and teach outside of the textbook - definitely much more than when I was in school!
Also know a few teachers who have taught in the UK and they certainly don't think our holidays are too long. In fact one said in her school they did no effective teaching in the last few weeks as the students are just too tired, that the year in UK is too long for them.
A point that really annoys me is comparing pay without comparing tax rates - again a friend of mine who worked in the UK has told me that although we get paid better here gross, after tax we actually come home with less :rolleyes::rolleyes: not sure how valid this is now, as she taught there a good while ago but its still something to remember. I think comparing take home pay would be more accurate.0 -
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