Green Bay Packers Thread

UnitedIrishman

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Lads any info on TE D.J. Williams? We signed him today because we are down to only 1 fit TE in Gronk. I did a quick check and saw he played two seasons in GB. So any opinions on him during his time with you guys?

From what I remember of the guy he wasn't bad. Didn't do much as a receiver for us with Finley, Tom Crabtree and Quarless around the place at the time. Did more as a solid blocking TE but can't see him doing much with you guys unless you're really down on numbers.

Son Of A Vidic

UnitedIrishman wrote: »

From what I remember of the guy he wasn't bad. Didn't do much as a receiver for us with Finley, Tom Crabtree and Quarless around the place at the time. Did more as a solid blocking TE but can't see him doing much with you guys unless you're really down on numbers.

Thanks for the update. Pretty down in numbers alright after we lost Hoo Man and have only Gronk left at TE. Hoo Man was more of a blocking TE so going by what you said, it looks like a straight replacement.

UnitedIrishman

If we lose tonight (which is about a 1/10 shot at the minute), Rodgers should be let rest up for the rest of the season. Playing behind that offensive line will get him killed, particularly with Dietrich Smith now looking to be injured at center.

Depressing viewing. We need a couple of new guys on o-line, d-line, another linebacker or two (Hawk is breaking my heart once again) and about two defensive backs.

More importantly Capers has to go. It's beyond a joke at this stage.

SantryRed

UnitedIrishman wrote: »

If we lose tonight (which is about a 1/10 shot at the minute), Rodgers should be let rest up for the rest of the season. Playing behind that offensive line will get him killed, particularly with Dietrich Smith now looking to be injured at center.

Depressing viewing. We need a couple of new guys on o-line, d-line, another linebacker or two (Hawk is breaking my heart once again) and about two defensive backs.

More importantly Capers has to go. It's beyond a joke at this stage.

Can still win this division. Have you seen how bad the Lions are? They'll drop two of @ Eagles, Ravens, Giants and @ Vikings.

UnitedIrishman

SantryRed wrote: »

Can still win this division. Have you seen how bad the Lions are? They'll drop two of @ Eagles, Ravens, Giants and @ Vikings.

Given our injuries, not quite sure we can go unbeaten the rest of the season.

matthew8

SantryRed wrote: »

Can still win this division. Have you seen how bad the Lions are? They'll drop two of @ Eagles, Ravens, Giants and @ Vikings.

That's a bit unfair on them. They've made a lot of mistakes but they will definitely be favourites against the Ravens, Giants and probably the Vikings. Defense looks serious and offense can at least move the ball. Certainly have a shot against the Eagles too.

Billy86

UnitedIrishman wrote: »

If we lose tonight (which is about a 1/10 shot at the minute), Rodgers should be let rest up for the rest of the season. Playing behind that offensive line will get him killed, particularly with Dietrich Smith now looking to be injured at center.

Depressing viewing. We need a couple of new guys on o-line, d-line, another linebacker or two (Hawk is breaking my heart once again) and about two defensive backs.

More importantly Capers has to go. It's beyond a joke at this stage.

ILB and S need to be the main two positions looked at in the draft, and some interior depth would help - but remember we have been playing the whole season without our two starting tackles. The defensive line if grand in terms of ability, I don't really think we need much help there - we just need someone who isn't a clown to run that defense. It's actually offensive how bad Capers is at this point.

cosatron

WTF was that BS. I think we should tank the rest of the season and get as high as draft pick cause we suck on d and oline. God to get whipped by the 49ers and not address our line backing and secondary defeincy is a joke. TT would want to get the finger out cause as previously posted our recent no.1 picks haven't been
Lighting up the world. Capers has to go at this stage

Billy86

cosatron wrote: »

WTF was that BS. I think we should tank the rest of the season and get as high as draft pick cause we suck on d and oline. God to get whipped by the 49ers and not address our line backing and secondary defeincy is a joke. TT would want to get the finger out cause as previously posted our recent no.1 picks haven't been
Lighting up the world. Capers has to go at this stage

Don't see how you can put this on TT - outside of not getting rid of Capers (probably a split decision between him and McCarthy). Bulaga is quality, I wouldn't get worried about Perry - 3-4 OLB can take time to develop at, and you can't blame Sherrod having one of the worst leg breaks the league has seen in recent years on him. Go back to the year before that and you've got CMIII and Raji.

With the amount of injuries we have had, Thompson's ability to pick up guys from nowhere who can contribute is unrivalled - he's easily a top 5 GM in the league and quite possibly the best in the draft.

UnitedIrishman

Billy86 wrote: »

ILB and S need to be the main two positions looked at in the draft, and some interior depth would help - but remember we have been playing the whole season without our two starting tackles. The defensive line if grand in terms of ability, I don't really think we need much help there - we just need someone who isn't a clown to run that defense. It's actually offensive how bad Capers is at this point.

Injuries have killed us alright. The fact that Newhouse is playing says it all. No surprise that Suh came through him for the safety. Bulaga coming back will help and hopefully Sherrod might produce after another offseason. Bakhtiari has done OK for a rookie tackle thrown in at the deep end. It's the interior of the line I'd be looking to upgrade. We're set at QB, WR, RB, FB. Finley will obviously need to be replaced which is another major loss.

Still haven't solved the problem of Matthews being the only linebacker able to get to the QB. Perry needs to start stepping up next year. He's had his injury troubles but he hasn't shown a lot to prove he was deserving of a first round pick.

To be honest, after cooling down from watching the game - we knew it was going to be extremely tough given what we have going against us. I was probably a bit harsh on Flynn for the safety, Suh did get to him a lot quicker than it looked in the replay. Just frustrating viewing.

Season isn't done yet but barring a lot of things going our way we're toast.

cosatron

Billy86 wrote: »

Don't see how you can put this on TT - outside of not getting rid of Capers (probably a split decision between him and McCarthy). Bulaga is quality, I wouldn't get worried about Perry - 3-4 OLB can take time to develop at, and you can't blame Sherrod having one of the worst leg breaks the league has seen in recent years on him. Go back to the year before that and you've got CMIII and Raji.

With the amount of injuries we have had, Thompson's ability to pick up guys from nowhere who can contribute is unrivalled - he's easily a top 5 GM in the league and quite possibly the best in the draft.

Im not putting this on TT, TT is unbelievable at unearthing great players in the lower rounds of the draft but i feel the first round picks since bulaga have been underwelming. We picked up Jones this year with alec ogletree and matt elam on the board who were studs coming out of an SEC conference. Nick perry needs to step up big time but he has over a season and half now and there is little production. Do you not think a first round pick should be a nailed on starter. Would you rate jones and perry as good picks in terms of what we needed and who was still on the board.

Billy86

cosatron wrote: »

Im not putting this on TT, TT is unbelievable at unearthing great players in the lower rounds of the draft but i feel the first round picks since bulaga have been underwelming. We picked up Jones this year with alec ogletree and matt elam on the board who were studs coming out of an SEC conference. Nick perry needs to step up big time but he has over a season and half now and there is little production. Do you not think a first round pick should be a nailed on starter. Would you rate jones and perry as good picks in terms of what we needed and who was still on the board.

Nick Perry only has 13 games played for us since we drafted him - this season he has 4 sacks in under 7 full games, under a farce of a defensive co-ordinator. That extrapolates out to 8-9 sacks over a season, which isn't bad for a second year guy. Add into that the fact that we have been behind a lot in games (leading to more rushing, less passing) and that Capers' schemes seem to believe that the more yards we give up per carry, the better (leading to more rushing again) and his abilities to rush the QB have been more limited. Now that might also point towards him needing to improve against the run, but as for getting to the QB I don't think he has been that bad at all to be honest, all things considered.

3-4 defensive line is another position that takes a long time to develop in - don't forget that Raji did very little in his first year (and really needs to get back to collapsing the pocket better for that matter), and Mike Daniels is an in-house example of this also. The physicality and complexities of the league are a huge leap from college, and you usually only see the very top guys do well off the bat, if even then.

As for where we took them, both were projected to go a good few picks higher than where they eventually did. In hindsight it would be nice to have Harrison Smith who went right after Perry, but we still needed an OLB so badly at the time and were hoping that Nick Collins might be able to return. Again with Elam it might have been nice to get a safety, but Jones (like Perry) is a physical freak who also had many key intangibles which is very difficult to pass up on - Elam also has not really been setting the world on fire as of yet in Baltimore to be fair, and I don't see where Ogletree would have fit in our defense? Maybe at ILB, but in Jones/Lattimore/Francois we had some reasonably young guys who looked worth giving a shot to, unlike OLB.

I still don't think it's fair to call Sherrod underwhelming - he has only returned to the team in the last three weeks, having missed over two full years from an outrageous leg break (and beforehand had only played 5 games as a rookie). If the season is beyond reach in the last few weeks, I think we absolutely must get him as much playing time as possible.

Also to mention that he was pick #32, and Perry #28 - closer to the second round than nearly all of the first. The trade value chart is not an exact science, but is a decent barometer of this: http://www.draftcountdown.com/features/Value-Chart.php

As things stand going into next years draft, HaHa is currently my #1 wish - if the season continues to go south, a better chance of picking him up would be one of the silver linings in my mind.

cosatron

Billy86 wrote: »

Nick Perry only has 13 games played for us since we drafted him - this season he has 4 sacks in under 7 full games, under a farce of a defensive co-ordinator. That extrapolates out to 8-9 sacks over a season, which isn't bad for a second year guy. Add into that the fact that we have been behind a lot in games (leading to more rushing, less passing) and that Capers' schemes seem to believe that the more yards we give up per carry, the better (leading to more rushing again) and his abilities to rush the QB have been more limited. Now that might also point towards him needing to improve against the run, but as for getting to the QB I don't think he has been that bad at all to be honest, all things considered.

3-4 defensive line is another position that takes a long time to develop in - don't forget that Raji did very little in his first year (and really needs to get back to collapsing the pocket better for that matter), and Mike Daniels is an in-house example of this also. The physicality and complexities of the league are a huge leap from college, and you usually only see the very top guys do well off the bat, if even then.

As for where we took them, both were projected to go a good few picks higher than where they eventually did. In hindsight it would be nice to have Harrison Smith who went right after Perry, but we still needed an OLB so badly at the time and were hoping that Nick Collins might be able to return. Again with Elam it might have been nice to get a safety, but Jones (like Perry) is a physical freak who also had many key intangibles which is very difficult to pass up on - Elam also has not really been setting the world on fire as of yet in Baltimore to be fair, and I don't see where Ogletree would have fit in our defense? Maybe at ILB, but in Jones/Lattimore/Francois we had some reasonably young guys who looked worth giving a shot to, unlike OLB.

I still don't think it's fair to call Sherrod underwhelming - he has only returned to the team in the last three weeks, having missed over two full years from an outrageous leg break (and beforehand had only played 5 games as a rookie). If the season is beyond reach in the last few weeks, I think we absolutely must get him as much playing time as possible.

Also to mention that he was pick #32, and Perry #28 - closer to the second round than nearly all of the first. The trade value chart is not an exact science, but is a decent barometer of this: http://www.draftcountdown.com/features/Value-Chart.php

As things stand going into next years draft, HaHa is currently my #1 wish - if the season continues to go south, a better chance of picking him up would be one of the silver linings in my mind.

HaHa would sort out allot of problems. If capers got the bullet what type of DC would suit our roster. Would a Rob Ryan type with an aggressive approach suit. Looking at what teams rushed on us is pretty scary. I think we only kept the ravens under 50 yards

Billy86

cosatron wrote: »

HaHa would sort out allot of problems. If capers got the bullet what type of DC would suit our roster. Would a Rob Ryan type with an aggressive approach suit. Looking at what teams rushed on us is pretty scary. I think we only kept the ravens under 50 yards

I reckon more aggressive is better - what is really weird with Capers is that we went from very aggressive in his first year, to completely vanilla immediately afterwards, and at this point just scared. It's almost as if he looked at the success he had in his first year and thought to himself "better not try that again". I think our coverage from the ILB/S positions needs to improve dramatically to make this work right though, we are really lacking anything resembling a playmaker in any of those spots and rather everyone is at best a decent 'complimentary' player... the loss of Collins and Bishop (not much in coverage but offered a lot of other stuff) not quite panning out killed us there. It's not really an exaggeration to say we leave the short/medium middle wide, wide open on 70% of plays (which is mind boggling).

I'm not a fan of Tramon Williams in recent years, but I do think Shields/Hayward are a quality tandem of pretty young CBs with House as extra support. CMIII we all know is class and I have plenty of faith in Perry should hopefully have us set at OLB. I really like our quality and depth on the defensive line now and moving forward - Raji, Jones, Daniels, Worthy, Jolly, Wilson and Pickett gives us plenty of strength, athleticism and good base skills... but it's all for nothing if we can get gashed so badly, so easily right up the middle. A rangey, ball-hawking safety and an explosive, play-making ILB I think are the main two spots we really, really need to address this draft. A TE to replace Finley and a center upgrade also would help a lot, but our WR talent, Rodgers and Lacy can more than offset that in the shorter term - there's no getting around our awful scheming and lack of impact through the middle (esp. with Raji not being explosive for a while now)on defence though.

To draw an analogy, it's like having all the parts of a good car, except the seats. And there's a blind man driving the thing with his feet while smoking a crack pipe.

cosatron

To draw an analogy, it's like having all the parts of a good car, except the seats. And there's a blind man driving the thing with his feet while smoking a crack pipe.[/quote]

brilliant. It's not good when McCarty has to come out say the defensive scheme is ok. I would prefer an sideline to sideline ILB. Watching hawk trying to get out to Reggie bush on a screen pass was hard to watch.

Billy86

Sideline to sideline ILB would help too, but it depends who we are replacing. If it is Jones/Lattimore then that guy would work best... if we are replacing Hawk, then I would prefer someone a bit more explosive as the other two are pretty decent in coverage, but (Jones especially) can struggle with the run.

Given that we are headed for our fourth straight year allowing at least 4.5 per carry, and also our fourth straight year in the bottom seven on that front, I think it's Hawk that should go (especially given he has a larger contract). He's not horrific and does some other things quite well, but he's a liability in coverage and not a dominant force against the run - and that's not going to cut it really. Given that with Rodgers and now Lacy in the lineup we should be looking for 30+ almost every game when in decent health, so I think a more mobile and ball-hawking pass defense is what we need to be looking for. We can afford to give up a decent YPC if we're defending the pass well and putting up enough points to make it not worth the opposition's time to keep on running at us... but we're not doing that this year.

The offence trailing off is understandable - look at sympathy the media have heaped on Peyton for having his two Ts out... that's been us literally all season. Plus injuries to every WR/TE of significance not named Jordy, guys getting banged up on the interior line, and then Rodgers just broke our back. But the defence has not only been poor against the run - it has been shocking against the pass too, allowing 8.0 YPA and a 99.1 avg QBR (having played Ponder twice, Weeden and RGIII/Eli/Flacco - all of whom have struggled badly for form this year), bottom 6 in both categories. Compare that to 2009 where we were allowing 6.4 YPA and a 68.8 QBR, and 2010 where is was 6.5 and 67.2. We gave up 3,100 and 3,200 passing yards those two years - in the three since, it has been 4,800 in 2011, 3,500 last year and 3,000 so far this year (on pace for 4,000). That's pathetic, and in my mind Capers hugely benefited from Jenkins, Pickett and Jolly being in their primes, Matthews and Raji being relatively unplanned for, Nick Collins being an all-pro level safety, and Woodson being in arguable GOAT form for a while there.*

*38 INTs, 11 sacks, 14 FFs, 5 recoveries and 10 defensive TDs in 6 years while being one of the top tackling and coverage CBs in the league over that time ('05-'11) barring coverage in the last year... that is easily, at the very least, 'in the discussion' GOAT form. He has been in the league for 8 years before arriving in GB, imagine he spent all that time there with similar production!?

cosatron

Billy86 wrote: »

Sideline to sideline ILB would help too, but it depends who we are replacing. If it is Jones/Lattimore then that guy would work best... if we are replacing Hawk, then I would prefer someone a bit more explosive as the other two are pretty decent in coverage, but (Jones especially) can struggle with the run.

Given that we are headed for our fourth straight year allowing at least 4.5 per carry, and also our fourth straight year in the bottom seven on that front, I think it's Hawk that should go (especially given he has a larger contract). He's not horrific and does some other things quite well, but he's a liability in coverage and not a dominant force against the run - and that's not going to cut it really. Given that with Rodgers and now Lacy in the lineup we should be looking for 30+ almost every game when in decent health, so I think a more mobile and ball-hawking pass defense is what we need to be looking for. We can afford to give up a decent YPC if we're defending the pass well and putting up enough points to make it not worth the opposition's time to keep on running at us... but we're not doing that this year.

The offence trailing off is understandable - look at sympathy the media have heaped on Peyton for having his two Ts out... that's been us literally all season. Plus injuries to every WR/TE of significance not named Jordy, guys getting banged up on the interior line, and then Rodgers just broke our back. But the defence has not only been poor against the run - it has been shocking against the pass too, allowing 8.0 YPA and a 99.1 avg QBR (having played Ponder twice, Weeden and RGIII/Eli/Flacco - all of whom have struggled badly for form this year), bottom 6 in both categories. Compare that to 2009 where we were allowing 6.4 YPA and a 68.8 QBR, and 2010 where is was 6.5 and 67.2. We gave up 3,100 and 3,200 passing yards those two years - in the three since, it has been 4,800 in 2011, 3,500 last year and 3,000 so far this year (on pace for 4,000). That's pathetic, and in my mind Capers hugely benefited from Jenkins, Pickett and Jolly being in their primes, Matthews and Raji being relatively unplanned for, Nick Collins being an all-pro level safety, and Woodson being in arguable GOAT form for a while there.*

*38 INTs, 11 sacks, 14 FFs, 5 recoveries and 10 defensive TDs in 6 years while being one of the top tackling and coverage CBs in the league over that time ('05-'11) barring coverage in the last year... that is easily, at the very least, 'in the discussion' GOAT form. He has been in the league for 8 years before arriving in GB, imagine he spent all that time there with similar production!?

Losing Cullen Jenkins was huge. I couldn't understand why we couldn't pay the man. He made Raji look amazing as he swallowed up 2 tackles and allow Raji to attack the qb. Now teams are double teaming Raji. What nuts about hawk is the performance against ravens. 3 sacks and held rice to under 50 yards and then he allows Reggie bush to 114 yards. His so frustrating

Arawn

Will post up my thoughts but just to point out hawk took a massive wage slash this year to stay with the team so isn on a big contract. Also on Reggie bush lads, he has been quietly having a great season, better than he has in years

cosatron

Arawn wrote: »

Will post up my thoughts but just to point out hawk took a massive wage slash this year to stay with the team so isn on a big contract. Also on Reggie bush lads, he has been quietly having a great season, better than he has in years

I know hawk took a pay cut but you have to admit that he is up and down. Reggie bush only had 2 games over 100 yards against the bears and 2 td up to Thursday and considering teams aren,t loading the box to take care of megatron. His no McCoy or ap

Billy86

In the last 5 games, we have given up 926 rushing yards, over 185 yards per game and over 5.78 yards per carry. To put that in perspective, the worst per carry average over a full season since 2002 is 5.3 ('06 Colts, who were incredibly difficult to pass on) and only two teams have allowed over 170 yards per game, the same Colts at about 172, and the 2008 Lions at about 173. Remember what else the 2008 Lions are famous for?

In fact, if you extrapolate out the last five games it is the second worst per-carry rushing defence in NFL HISTORY behind... the 1934 Cincinnati Reds: http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/content/the-50-club-the-worst-run-defenses-nfl-history/7374/ . So the worst in just shy of 80 years, then...

cosatron

The 5 games leading up to AR getting injured. We gave up just shy of 400 yards and since then as billy pointed out over 900 yards. I just don't understand this.

Arawn

cosatron wrote: »

The 5 games leading up to AR getting injured. We gave up just shy of 400 yards and since then as billy pointed out over 900 yards. I just don't understand this.

We have a lot less 3 and outs with AR throwing the ball which means the opponents get less time to play

Arawn

Kahlil Bell signed as cover for RB. Won't see him bar injuries imo

Billy86

A bit random to be honest, unless Starks/Franklin have picked up injuries I am unaware of? I've been a bit disappointed to not see more of Franklin since the Bengals game to be honest - the fumble at the end was costly ye, but he did still have a 100 yard game in just 13 carries... otherwise, he only has 5 carries all season.

Arawn

He's out for the season on IR

Billy86

Cheers - it's hard to keep track at this point.

UnitedIrishman

Yeah he suffered a concussion in the Vikes game IIRC. To be fair, I didn't see it either but only heard about it after. It's a pity because I think he's a promising player if he could get a few touches.

UnitedIrishman

McMillian cut. Also, good to hear McCarthy isn't burying his head in the sand over the performance the last game.

McCarthy said the film review of the Lions game did not produce many positive grades. The offense, he said, had none. The defense, other than the four takeaways, also was all negative. He said they had 20 missed tackles on defense and special teams combined.

“We’re staying true to who we are,” McCarthy said. “We study the film. We correct the things that we’ve done [and] maybe get some people healthier. Coming back, there’ll be more competition for playing time in certain packages. So some of that’s going to change, but I’m not going to get into specifics on that.”

http://espn.go.com/blog/green-bay-packers/post/_/id/4383/cutting-mcmillian-not-a-major-shakeup

WakeyTyke

So this is it. Season on the line and no Rodgers.

Flynn was a massive disappointment against the Lions and there must be a huge question mark over whether he can make the throws on Sunday to open up the run for Lacy.

If the defense can't shake off its lethargy and actually get the opposing offense off the field then it's going to be a long post-season.

Certainly makes for dramatic Sunday.

Arawn

I'm in favour of sitting AR till next season to be honest