is it absolutely vital for a dogs wellbeing they sleep indoors

Discodog

amacca wrote: »

I'd have high hopes if I selected the proper temperament again (+neutered) there would be no need for a fenced in run....seems to be all about the temperament to me

A neighbour's dog was killed on a road. It had never shown any sign of going near the road during the previous 8 years. He was the third dog killed here, in the last two years, in similar circumstances.

carwash_2006

All this discussion on keeping a dog in a kennel in the cold is very interesting and all, but is wildly off topic in this case. The poster has confirmed that he means a shed and from his posts it is obvious that he would be prepared to offer some sort of heating if the weather is very cold and shed is not enough.

amacca

Discodog wrote: »

A neighbour's dog was killed on a road. It had never shown any sign of going near the road during the previous 8 years. He was the third dog killed here, in the last two years, in similar circumstances.

wouldn't like that to happen...but not entirely sure the small chance of it happening would justify having a fenced in run ...all other things being equal


I say small chance because the previous 5 dogs we have had have not died in this manner.....we made the decision to get one put down due to viciousness etc when I was a child (he was prone to chasing cars alright) not to mention my dads dogs (he had two in his lifetime I think they died of natural causes)...the last two I have had spent very little time on the road of their own accord and were well able to cross without endangering themselves.....its a small windy country lane [barely a cars width across - cars usually going slow etc]

is it your position that when a dog is outside and not on walks/ not under direct second by second supervision he should be in a run? (if owner does not have a walled in/fenced in back garden type situation like in an estate)

without doing a survey etc it appears as if a lot of my neighbours don't share this view, dont see any runs on view anyway (but then again that doesn't mean they are 100% correct either)

Chris_Heilong

Like other have said it depends on the breed, with my Pom and Samoyed I wouldnt dream of letting them sleep outside, I belonged to the all dogs should be indoors camp, I have changed my view point since I got my Malamute, I tried hard to keep him in doors as this is what I was used to but he would not have it, he mostly lives in the house and will howl if we dont let him in straight away:( as he wants to be with his family and maybe the chance to steal someone elses food, but by 8 everynight he demands to go outside, To look at him laying on the ground panting it would be cruel to keep him inside. No matter what the weather he will want to go out, sometimes when it starts raining we try to call him in but he will move away from us and curls up with no shelter, he loves it. Next morning around 7:00 he howls to be let in and fed. Like Shanao said Double coated breeds fair better the those with out in our Irish weather, Wolves used to live here naturally just a little over 260 years ago and done so well in Ireland we were known throughout Europe as Wolfland.

lrushe

carwash_2006 wrote: »

All this discussion on keeping a dog in a kennel in the cold is very interesting and all, but is wildly off topic in this case. The poster has confirmed that he means a shed and from his posts it is obvious that he would be prepared to offer some sort of heating if the weather is very cold and shed is not enough.

I agree, also the title of the OP's post is 'is it absolutely vital for a dogs wellbeing that they sleep indoors' and the answer to that is no (with the exception of a few more delicate breeds).
While I agree that leaving a dog out in weather like last winter is insanity however right now it's a balmy 15 degrees, I have the window open at night and the ceiling fan on and I still find it hard to sleep with the heat, imagine wearing a fur coat along with that!
As for barking at night, a well exercised, well stimulated dog will be too tired to bark at night, they will happily sleep in a warm kennel. My neighbours dogs are kept indoors but that doesn't stop them waking us early in the morning running up and down the stairs barking, all four of them :mad:
On the point about them being stolen, well how many dogs have been stolen from inside their house lately? My bedroom is above my dogs kennel so if anyone were to come into my garden I would hear it.
I am an outdoor person, the thoughts of being inside all the time makes me feel a bit closterphobic so I guess I do personify that onto my dogs also. That said my dogs are in the house with me until bed time then they will go outside to their kennel in the summer and a spare bedroom in the winter.

Discodog

amacca wrote: »

is it your position that when a dog is outside and not on walks/ not under direct second by second supervision he should be in a run? (if owner does not have a walled in/fenced in back garden type situation like in an estate)

Yes it would be. I believe that a dog should be under control. My garden is not secure so my three only go outside on flexi leads with me on the other end. But they get two long off lead walks per day. I could never take the risk of them being killed on the road - not only for them but for the people who may get injured as a result & me being sued !

I have seen too many exceptions where a normally perfectly behaved dog acts unexpectedly & so has any Vet. People will always say that "he never went near the road". My neighbours Collie crosses a busy road several times a day. All the locals say that he knows how to cross safely. You can still see the skidmarks where he ran out in front of a car last week ! By the way the quiet winding lanes are often the worse because the dog doesn't see the car & the driver either doesn't see the dog or has no room to swerve. Also a quiet road can lure a dog or cat into a false sense of security.

You are to be commended for coming here to seek opinion & then listening to it. You may think that some of the advice here is over the top but it is an Animal forum frequented by animal lovers. All any of us can do is express an opinion as in reality there is nothing to stop you keeping a dog how you see fit.

meoklmrk91

My Boxer has always slept inside, he is ten months old and I would never dream of leaving him sleep outside. My vet recommends it as he says they get a better nights sleep and are thus happier and calmer during the day. He spends all day outside, mostly in the back garden, and out the front in the evening for a game of fetch and off for a walk. He has a kennel outside, but once it starts getting dark he looks to come in. Also I find that he is a much cleaner dog because of sleeping indoors, there is no ''dog'' smell off of him and I rarely bath him. And I fell much safer having him in the house as he is an excellent guard dog.

liquoriceall

I dont see anything wrong with a farm dog sleeping outside in a shed if thats what theyre used to, my sister has elkhounds and you couldnt make them sleep inside they would go mad with the heat!

easyeason3

I have a question for everyone.

My dogs kennel is looking a bit shabby so I'm in the process of building him a new one. Given the winters we have been having I want this one to be ultra cosy for when he is out during the day.

I'm thinking of buying thick insulation (about three inches thick), the type that goes into houses, & putting timber on either side of it. So there will be insulation under the kennel, on each wall & on the roof. I'll be putting a dog flap on the door that goes into it. A hard plastic one because he eats the soft plastic flaps.

Is there anything else you could recommend to put in it?
Also is there any particular type of wood I should use for heat, durability etc?

Cherry Blossom

^^^^ I think that's a question that deserves it's own thread

easyeason3

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

^^^^ I think that's a question that deserves it's own thread

Ok, thanks.
Hijacking doesn't suit me does it

Bizzum

Zapperzy wrote: »

But a bullock is not a dog, they have thicker coats and thicker skin to withstand the cold. And forgive me if I'm wrong but you wouldn't keep a bullock on it's own, generally speaking they'd be with other bullocks so would stand together to keep warm.

You'd put a weak lamb under an IR lamp in march when the temperatures would have increased a little so why not give a dog one in december when the temps go down to a lot lower temperatures.



But in my mind keeping a dog outside with just a wooden kennel and some straw even in an unheated outhouse or shed where the temperatures go below -10 is neglect. It's not so bad during the day when they are moving around but to lie still in that and sleep is tough. Greyhounds were just the first breed that popped into my head that suffer particularly bad with cold.



Yes I was refering to a IR lamp when I said red lamp.
Fair enough thats your experience but this is mine and other's experience and opinions, I haven't googled anything I'm just going by my own knowledge, experience and opinions.

@Zapperzy,
Your points are reasonable and well made.
I could argue the toss on several if I desired, however I think there is no point in argument for argument sake.
I will agree to disagree, and perhaps mull over some of your points with a view to taking them on board.
For the record the googling thing wasn't in any way shape or form refering to you.

DBB

Hmmm.. I am firmly in the dogs should be indoors camp. For me, the whole temperature is absolutely secondary, because there are ways and means of getting around that. For me, the problem is that outdoor dogs tend to be bored, don't get enough social interaction, and therefore develop behavioural problems. They're too easy to forget when they're outside.

BUT...:p

This applies more to the epidemic in Ireland of owners getting a dog and more-or-less throwing it out into the back garden to live a life of solitude. I *think* this mindset stems from our agricultural background, where as a general rule, all animals slept outside.

So here's the rub... the farm dog, although living outside, does not suffer from the above problems because he's out and about doing stuff all day with the farmer and family, rooting about and generally tiring himself out. Farm dogs, when out and about all day with the farmer, just don't have the time and energy to become bored, destructive etc.

The problem is that this mindset has followed people into the urban setting, but people are missing the point that leaving a dog outside alone in the garden (as opposed to working around th efarm) is not the same thing as having an outdoor farm dog (as per my above description).

And this is where you'll run into problems with rescue groups, because rescues have to assume that the majority of people who "want" to keep a dog outside are intending to almost abandon it in the back garden. The fear is that if someone "wants" to keep a dog outside, then their attitude to owning a dog is not particularly conducive to giving it a great life with plenty of social contact. In many (if not most) cases, rescue groups are quite justified in being concerned about such people.

And OP, this is where you're going to fall between the cracks, because although the home you're offering sounds pretty good for the right dog, the whole "outdoor" thing is kinda taboo for most rescue groups!

That said, I have heard several rescue group co-ordinators say that they've had dogs in that were not happy to live inside, and were happy to rehome such dogs to the right outdoor home... but it will take a lot of convincing to get a rescue group, even with the outdoorsiest of dogs, to trust that you want to keep the dog outside for the "right" reasons, and that you can provide extremely well for such a dog.

The fact that you're pro-neutering etc suggests to me that you're a responsible person, and the things you say about owning a dog makes me feel that you're not going to do anything stupid or put the dog in any danger.

However, AJ voices concerns about what you'd do if the dog was a wanderer, and this would also concern me. But again, with the right dog, and given the lifestyle you say you can offer, you'd be hopeful of having a dog who is happy to flop out on the doorstep or in the barn when he's not rooting about with you on the farm.

I have rehomed dogs to farmers who didn't have completely secured areas for their dog, but we felt the area was safe from a traffic point of view, and critically, that the new owner was going to be hyper-careful to make sure the dog was only outside when supervised until the dog clearly showed he wasn't going to scarper. In short, we were happy the owners in these occasional cases were going to be as sensible as I would be if I was in the same situation!

I'm amazed that a county pound turned you down. They usually don't have any rehoming criteria pertaining to the "quality" of the home the dog is going to. Perhaps keep an eye on the pounds, or contact a couple of rescues and explain your circumstances, and keep in contact with them to convince them you're bona fide.

Finally, I'd 100% support what a couple of others have said about not getting two pups at the same time. I think if you want the dogs to amuse themselves and disappear off-farm for some fun, it's far more likely to happen with two together, untrained, of the same age. It is tough to train two pups of the same age. However, I'm not getting the impression that you're after 2 dogs?

So, while it's not for me, I think if you make sure you get the right dog, you could give him a great home that many "pet" dogs would envy!

amacca

DBB wrote: »

The problem is that this mindset has followed people into the urban setting, but people are missing the point that leaving a dog outside alone in the garden (as opposed to working around th efarm) is not the same thing as having an outdoor farm dog (as per my above description).

tks for the response...your post sums it up neatly alright

DBB wrote: »

And this is where you'll run into problems with rescue groups, because rescues have to assume that the majority of people who "want" to keep a dog outside are intending to almost abandon it in the back garden. The fear is that if someone "wants" to keep a dog outside, then their attitude to owning a dog is not particularly conducive to giving it a great life with plenty of social contact. In many (if not most) cases, rescue groups are quite justified in being concerned about such people.

And OP, this is where you're going to fall between the cracks, because although the home you're offering sounds pretty good for the right dog, the whole "outdoor" thing is kinda taboo for most rescue groups!

ill have to work on communicating my intentions better.....when talking to this lady on the phone she just didnt want to even take a moment to listen unfortunately.....ill request to see someone in charge face to face and try and explain my case in future.............................forms dont leave much leeway for making it clear what you have in mind

DBB wrote: »

you'd be hopeful of having a dog who is happy to flop out on the doorstep or in the barn when he's not rooting about with you on the farm.

that is a better description than I managed...exactly, and I have had two of these in the past.....both retriever breeds

DBB wrote: »

I'm amazed that a county pound turned you down. They usually don't have any rehoming criteria pertaining to the "quality" of the home the dog is going to.

yup....I wont name it as tbh the staff on the ground seemed under pressure, were working hard and were very approachable etc + I don't feel its fair but it was definitely not a privately run shelter - it was a pound

as I've said before the only criteria the last time I took a dog was it had to have a license but things have changed (mostly for the better)

DBB wrote: »

Finally, I'd 100% support what a couple of others have said about not getting two pups at the same time. I think if you want the dogs to amuse themselves and disappear off-farm for some fun, it's far more likely to happen with two together, untrained, of the same age. It is tough to train two pups of the same age. However, I'm not getting the impression that you're after 2 dogs?

tks for the info....although we've had dogs before, we've only had one at a time so did'nt know the above although would have researched it before getting two......message seems to be coming through loud and clear in this thread alone that its not a good idea particularly from the point of view of training etc

DBB wrote: »

So, while it's not for me, I think if you make sure you get the right dog, you could give him a great home that many "pet" dogs would envy!

tks........I think so in any event.

Tranceypoo

Just wanted to say agree 1 million percent with DBB's post (just didn't want to quote the whole thing), think you've summed it up perfectly DBB!

Graces7

When we took the care of the collie, she lived outdoors.
Old farming family who never allowed any dog or cat indoors. They later inflicted that on a wee spaniel which was reported to good effect.

What thus concerns is the total ban on any dog being indoors ever.
This is an Irish farming custom. Which every rescue will know only too well. Our collie was c hained to a 56 lb weight 24/7 when we found her and they saw nothing wrong ion that; and in a totally isolated ruin.


So looking ahead to eg sickness etc?

And of course dogs need people.

After spaying, we brought her in at night, just to the back porch, and gradually she became used to being indoors.

Now she reclines lazily on the old couch as to the manner born. She is getting old and stiff and needs more comfort.

She still loves to be outdoors and on some nights the door is left open. As it is most of the day just now. BUT the patio area is totally secure. She is a car chaser so we take no risks.

No we would never leave a dog outside. Too much theft etc. And times, OP have probably changed of late; more traffic around even in rural areas

We cannot afford much heating so overheating is never an issue for the dogs. More so in summer when there is sun and they gravitate inside then.

Irishchick

Just to say that my post reffered to summer months. Of course its better for a dog to sleep inside a porch or back room in winter but in summer a well made kennel is more than fine, its healthier.

My main issue is with dogs that are kept inside by the fire 24/7 , who then have owners who complain about the dogs dry skin and constant shedding.

Discodog

Irishchick wrote: »

Just to say that my post reffered to summer months. Of course its better for a dog to sleep inside a porch or back room in winter but in summer a well made kennel is more than fine, its healthier.

My main issue is with dogs that are kept inside by the fire 24/7 , who then have owners who complain about the dogs dry skin and constant shedding.

Sorry but I tend to disagree ......again

Inside a house is usually cooler in summer than being outside. I can tell when it's really hot - hasn't happened this summer because one of mine will lay on the kitchen floor.

Commercially available kennels are usually badly designed in that there is no variable ventilation. So on a hot day or night the dog's body heat gets trapped by the kennel.

A shed can get extremely warm & potentially dangerous if a dog is shut in on a sunny day. Because of the greater volume & poor insulation a shed will cost a fortune to heat. I would suggest that the OP make a semi enclosed area with a roof within the shed.