is it absolutely vital for a dogs wellbeing they sleep indoors

borderlinemeath

I don't think it's essential, but breed dependent. In saying that our dog sleeps inside, and has moved from the kitchen into the corner of the bedroom!

OP, would you consider getting 2 dogs? Maybe a couple of littermates to keep each other company if they are going to sleep outside. There's always a good few "oops litters" going free to good homes, and lots of them are collie/springer crosses.At least they would have interaction with each other when your farming day ends.

I would definately state your case more clearly when approaching rescues. Instead of just "ticking the box" saying the dog will sleep outside, write down the exact circumstances, as other posters have said, not all rescues are "black and white" and will rehome to the best home available.

amacca

borderlinemeath wrote: »

OP, would you consider getting 2 dogs? Maybe a couple of littermates to keep each other company if they are going to sleep outside. There's always a good few "oops litters" going free to good homes, and lots of them are collie/springer crosses.

I think I could swing two to keep each other company all right...is it normal to have two the same sex or a boy and a girl with this (they will all be neutered presumably so maybe this is not a big deal)...would like to get at least one male.

would be reluctant to take anything to do with a collie...would be fine if I wanted a working cattle/dog etc but collies I've had in the past dont seem to suit the lifestyle (strangely enough, you would think farms would suit them down to the ground but they seem to be a mix of very intelligent and up to mischief if they are not working from dawn to dusk [perhaps down to my inexperience when it comes to training them]).

thread is badly titled (my bad) I hope when posters are responding they realize by outside I just mean outside of the house as a previous poster has clarified..not outside in the fresh air...dogs will have a roof over their heads..warm bedding at night etc just wont be inside the house

Cherry Blossom

amacca wrote: »

I hasten to add this was not an absolute..but a general rule of thumb...there were of course times he would go through ditch etc into a neighbours field investigating a smell etc...but he didnt wander after bitches...worry sheep, go into other peoples property looking for food etc.

Getting straight to the point, personally for me the most important personality traits in a person are accountability and responsibility, if you have taken something on you see it through properly. I'm a huge advocate of responsible pet ownership. IMO no fences are unacceptable, if I didn't have fences to keep my horses in how do you think that would go down?

amacca wrote: »

previous dog was not free to wander during the night...nor will this one be......dont want him to join a pack...start worrying sheep etc

This is every bit as likely to happen during day light as at night.

Any dog found on my property will go straight to the pound, I don't care why it's there, or what it's doing there. I don't take any risk to any animals that I personally have taken responsibility for so surely its perfectly acceptable for me to expect my neighbours to do me the same courtesy. Do you see where I am coming from here? If someone has to retrieve their dog from the pound and pay the release fee every time it comes on my property they are more likely to make sure it doesn't happen. These are exactly the same reasons why rescues have certain minimum requirements in place, and honestly they are the bare minimum required to ensure people are accountable and take responsibility for a life they have taken charge of. I'm sure you understand this.

I'm far from being the only person in this frame of mind and rescues do not want dogs that have been through their doors being brought to pounds or coming back to them because they have been found wandering, this would be a complete waste of their resources re-homing in this way. It's really that simple.

carwash_2006

From a training point of view (which I imagine will be rather important so the dog can fit into farm life quickly).Don't get 2 at the same time and definitely don't under any circumstances get 2 from the same source at the same time around the same age. Personal experience here, it is very difficult to train 2 dogs at once. If you want to have 2, get one and have that one well along the training road before getting a second one.

The rescues that have a blanket policy on this have it because it is almost impossible for a rescue to spend enough time assessing a new home to determine the ones that an outdoor dog will work in and which ones it would be disastrous. They would be working from experience of more dogs being returned from outdoor homes because of barking at night or being neglected and also more dogs in general coming from those kinds of homes than from indoor homes. It often does end up meaning a dog that will be somewhat neglected and thus more likely to have behavioural problems and like I say they don't have the time to assess all the homes on this matter on an individual basis.

There are loads of pounds that won't ask you any questions like that, what general area of the country are you maybe some of us can point you in the right sort of direction?

Bizzum

I think the OP would be ill advised to get 2 dogs, particularly litter mates.

It is human interaction a dog needs. By all means let the dog sleep outside, (When we sleep, an indoor dog can't interact much with us) let him out last thing at night and let him in first thing in the morning.
Forget about a heated kennell too. There are more pampered pooches killed with kindness than die of the cold. It went down to -17*C last winter around us and i don't recall hearing of one death related to it. On a casual stroll around any town you will encounter overweight/obese dogs who's lives are being comprimised by kindness!
If the dog is let spend nearly all it's waking hours with you on the farm, has a cosy bed to lie in, is adequetaly nourished, and has his health needs taken care of (inc neutering) then he is a happy dog, and will be lucky to have an owner like you.
Best of luck.

Discodog

A rescue cannot be expected to know each applicant personally so they have to have blanket rules but most will be flexible if you make the effort to explain the situation.

The other thing that you have to take into account is a far higher percentage of neglected dogs & those that end up in rescues were kept outside rather than inside. I am pretty sure that the majority of posters here look after their dog, whether it is in or out, but this forum is hardly representative of dog owners in general.

I have three dogs & it is obvious that their relationship & interaction with me is more important to them than their interaction with each other. Dogs need human companionship. Yes two are easier in that they keep each other company but they still need humans.

Also there is the security/control aspect. People are reluctant to fence so too often the dog ends up on a chain which is totally unacceptable. Or the dog is allowed to wander.

The rescues end up with thousands of unwanted dogs because of irresponsible owners so you can hardly blame them if they don't want to repeat the situation.

Irishchick

NO. It is not. You wouldnt believe the amount of dogs we see in the clinic that have skin problems related to spending too much time in an overheated envoirnment.

Dogs are animals, not children. They have coats for a reason. A good sturdy kennel thats draught proof will be fine. He/she can than come in and out during the day.

amacca

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

IMO no fences are unacceptable, if I didn't have fences to keep my horses in how do you think that would go down?

seriously...dog proof fencing on the boundaries of a large farm...its drystock here...there are ditches/boundaries etc but it would cost in the multiple tens of thousands to make them fully dogproof...spaniel breeds are good at wriggling through things etc...I couldnt be sure it didnt cross through a ditch occasionally when I was around and perhaps on his own (with 2 or three row of barbed wire etc) but the dog was watched during the day..his absence for more than a couple of minutes would be noticed
.....if youre talking about fencing off a run for him..then maybe but it seems strange when I have so much space for him

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

This is every bit as likely to happen during day light as at night.

not true at all in my experience....we used to have a sheep herd.....they were only attacked at night...there must surely be a greater chance of a pack of dogs worrying sheep at night...for one thing humans are not as active..less opportunity to get away with it etc

amacca

carwash_2006 wrote: »

There are loads of pounds that won't ask you any questions like that, what general area of the country are you maybe some of us can point you in the right sort of direction?

tks for the advice...midlands area...have been to local towns pounds (surprisingly few dogs in) and have visited pounds in dublin

Zapperzy

Bizzum wrote: »

I think the OP would be ill advised to get 2 dogs, particularly litter mates.

It is human interaction a dog needs. By all means let the dog sleep outside, (When we sleep, an indoor dog can't interact much with us) let him out last thing at night and let him in first thing in the morning.
Forget about a heated kennell too. There are more pampered pooches killed with kindness than die of the cold. It went down to -17*C last winter around us and i don't recall hearing of one death related to it. On a casual stroll around any town you will encounter overweight/obese dogs who's lives are being comprimised by kindness!
If the dog is let spend nearly all it's waking hours with you on the farm, has a cosy bed to lie in, is adequetaly nourished, and has his health needs taken care of (inc neutering) then he is a happy dog, and will be lucky to have an owner like you.
Best of luck.

Presuming any heating is installed properly and safely and any infared lamps are at a suitable height as to not burn the dog then how is the dog going to be killed with kindness?

Maybe there wasn't any deaths that you heard of but it can't be comfortable for a dog to sleep in -17C even with a fur coat, maybe some of the northern breeds would be more suited to it, (but take into account most of these huskies aren't continually living in - conditions so probably haven't the same coat that huskies living in colder climates with year round low temperatures have), but definitely the shorter coated breeds especially those with a very thin layer of fat such as greyhounds would really feel the cold. For the sake of an hour or twos work putting up a bit of insulation and buying a red lamp (which most farmers would presumably already have one if they have lambs and most sheds/barns already have electricity in them) so that the dog is more comfortable for the winter.

I agree dogs should not be overfed to the point of barely being able to walk, I think even over in the uk there has been people prosecuted for continually allowing their pet to be morbidly obese, but just ensuring a dog is more comfortable should we get the same winter again is not killing a dog with kindness.

Discodog

Irishchick wrote: »

NO. It is not. You wouldnt believe the amount of dogs we see in the clinic that have skin problems related to spending too much time in an overheated envoirnment.

Dogs are animals, not children. They have coats for a reason. A good sturdy kennel thats draught proof will be fine. He/she can than come in and out during the day.

As someone in the Veterinary profession you know that this cannot be true because it all depends on the breed of dog, the type of coat, the quality of the kennel & the ambient temperature.

I looked after a neighbours dog during a cold spell this winter. It is a Collie that sleeps in a good kennel in an open barn. Because it was so cold I attached a curtain to act as a door. Out of interest I put a recording thermometer in the kennel & the temperature dropped to -8 ! Now that is cold for a Collie but it would of been agony for a small shorthair like a JRT.

Most houses will have unheated hallways, kitchens etc. There is no reason for a dog to get too hot unless it has an exceptional coat. Dogs may be animals but we have changed them & many are simply not equipped to be out in all weathers.

Cherry Blossom

amacca wrote: »

seriously...dog proof fencing on the boundaries of a large farm...its drystock here...there are ditches/boundaries etc but it would cost in the multiple tens of thousands to make them fully dogproof...

I'm not suggesting that at all, you have given the impression that you intend to give the dog free run of the whole world to do what it likes. If the dog is going to out and about around the farm in your company that is fine, but it shouldn't be let roam around unaccompanied which is the impression I have gotten from your post. It also appears that you are not going to have any sort of enclosed area to keep the dog in and I have got the impression that it will be left to its own devices to tag along with whomever it pleases or wander off elsewhere going about its own business. What is wrong with securing the garden so the dog can be kept there safely without supervision . You claim it is silly to do this when you have so much space which makes no sense to me, and I have given some of the reasons why it is actually down right irresponsible to let a dog have free run of the whole world. I'd rather have a dog confined to a decent sized space all day than have one shot because it doesn't know the difference between your field and your neighbours. Apologies if I have picked this up all wrong but if I have then it's easy to see how this rescue you have been in contact with has as well.

Bizzum

Zapperzy wrote: »

Presuming any heating is installed properly and safely and any infared lamps are at a suitable height as to not burn the dog then how is the dog going to be killed with kindness?

Maybe there wasn't any deaths that you heard of but it can't be comfortable for a dog to sleep in -17C even with a fur coat, maybe some of the northern breeds would be more suited to it, (but take into account most of these huskies aren't continually living in - conditions so probably haven't the same coat that huskies living in colder climates with year round low temperatures have), but definitely the shorter coated breeds especially those with a very thin layer of fat such as greyhounds would really feel the cold. For the sake of an hour or twos work putting up a bit of insulation and buying a red lamp (which most farmers would presumably already have one if they have lambs and most sheds/barns already have electricity in them) so that the dog is more comfortable for the winter.
.

A healthy dog (perhaps excluding greyhounds or the like-which were at no time mentioned in this thread) has no more requirement for an IR lamp than a Bullock.
Should we not put all our animals under IR lamps?
I wouldn't like to be paying the ESB bill!

Discodog

Bizzum wrote: »

It went down to -17*C last winter around us and i don't recall hearing of one death related to it.

I did. Even our poor welfare laws will soon make it illegal to keep a Greyhound at lower than 10 C. A dog in a kennel cannot move to keep warm so it has to shiver to generate heat. There are lots of things that dogs can survive but it doesn't mean that they should have to. If you were shut out at -17 you would probably survive. Just because the dog is alive in the morning is doesn't mean that it didn't suffer.

For every 1 dog that dies from kindness there will be 1000 that die from neglect.

Shanao

Irishchick wrote: »

NO. It is not. You wouldnt believe the amount of dogs we see in the clinic that have skin problems related to spending too much time in an overheated envoirnment.

Dogs are animals, not children. They have coats for a reason. A good sturdy kennel thats draught proof will be fine. He/she can than come in and out during the day.

This is completely breed specific, you couldn't expect a staffie or greyhound to endure the same cold a spitz-type would. The northern breeds will do alright, but even then, their coats have had to adapt to our warmer climate as is (not saying that Ireland is all that warm of course) so wont be as thick as their snow-dwelling counterparts. And the amount of dogs that got frostbite on their paw pads last winter was unreal. I wasn't going sitting out in when I was well-wrapped up, and I wouldn't expect my dogs to either.


Both of my dogs have thick doublecoats but I wouldn't expect them to sleep outdoors. Dogs all over the country are being stolen every single day, I'm not risking mine being amongst them. They are inside at night, so I know exactly where they are; doubtful they could get over the walls around our garden anyway, but I'm not letting anything up to chance. And I hate hearing all the other dogs in our estate barking all night, I'm not going to add my two to that (though they dont bark, I dont want them starting to either).
I can see why rescues and pounds dont want dogs to go to a home where they will be outside all night, there are too many risks.

amacca

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

I'm not suggesting that at all, you have given the impression that you intend to give the dog free run of the whole world to do what it likes. If the dog is going to out and about around the farm in your company that is fine, but it shouldn't be let roam around unaccompanied which is the impression I have gotten from your post.

from a previous post (#30) in this thread

"now I know all dogs wont be the same but with the previous lad....his territory was the boundaries of our plot of land at the home place...I would regularly walk these (for upkeep of fences but at the start for him) and he would mark this as his territory by urinating on the ditch every couple of minutes.....he generally seemed to stick to that range.....but an eye was always kept on him

roam in the sense there was a lot of ground for him to cover...not roam in the sense he was off for hours/days on his own unsupervised on somebody elses property"

if I gave the impression he would be let run around without me being aware of it for long periods I didnt mean to but I did clarify in subsequent posts like the above

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

It also appears that you are not going to have any sort of enclosed area to keep the dog in and I have got the impression that it will be left to its own devices to tag along with whomever it pleases or wander off elsewhere going about its own business. What is wrong with securing the garden so the dog can be kept there safely without supervision . You claim it is silly to do this when you have so much space which makes no sense to me,

true...i've not had an enclosed outside area for any dog ive had during the daytime as there has not seemed to be any need for it......I ahve the place to myself more or less....nearest neighbours house a good long way up the road...plenty of my own property for the dog to enjoy himself on

previous dog was light on supervision believe it or not...he hung around the yard/house religiously and followed us around the place etc

that didnt stop us keeping an eye on him though...dog wont be free to do what he likes..im not that sort of person and Im sorry if I gave that impression


(All dogs I've had have been enclosed at night with a roof over their heads /bedding /water etc however)

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

and I have given some of the reasons why it is actually down right irresponsible to let a dog have free run of the whole world. I'd rather have a dog confined to a decent sized space all day than have one shot because it doesn't know the difference between your field and your neighbours. Apologies if I have picked this up all wrong but if I have then it's easy to see how this rescue you have been in contact with has as well.

and your reasons are correct but if you read my other posts I think its fair to say I did not give the impression the dog would have "free run of the whole world" and if I did I apologize

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Apologies if I have picked this up all wrong but if I have then it's easy to see how this rescue you have been in contact with has as well.

thats not really fair.....the question on their form was something along the lines of

will the dog sleep indoors at night or outdoors in a kennel/outbuilding


I answered truthfully (circled the option actually) that the dog would sleep outside of the house in an outbuilding/kennel ...so its not a case that my answer was in anyway unclear or that I am an especially confusing person to deal with (although ill freely admit I'm not perfect:))

Bizzum

Discodog wrote: »

I did. Even our poor welfare laws will soon make it illegal to keep a Greyhound at lower than 10 C. A dog in a kennel cannot move to keep warm so it has to shiver to generate heat. There are lots of things that dogs can survive but it doesn't mean that they should have to. If you were shut out at -17 you would probably survive. Just because the dog is alive in the morning is doesn't mean that it didn't suffer.

For every 1 dog that dies from kindness there will be 1000 that die from neglect.

Big big difference between neglect and cold.
I never mentioned neglect. So I will stand over what I said.
Why do greyhounds keep coming into this?

Discodog

Bizzum wrote: »

A healthy dog (perhaps excluding greyhounds or the like-which were at no time mentioned in this thread) has no more requirement for an IR lamp than a Bullock.
Should we not put all our animals under IR lamps?
I wouldn't like to be paying the ESB bill!

A heatpad uses 13 watts - so little you wouldn't be able to detect it on an ESB bill.

Shanao

Bizzum wrote: »

Big big difference between neglect and cold.
I never mentioned neglect. So I will stand over what I said.
Why do greyhounds keep coming into this?

Greyhounds are mentioned because of their single coat, a coat type shared with quite a few breeds. I took in a dobermann six days before last Christmas, she had been left out in the snow with a wooden kennel and straw. She had frostbite on her pawpads from being outside the whole time. So as far as i can see, these dogs outside in the cold = neglect. Boxers, staffies, JRTs, Greys, beagles, dobies, rotts, most hound breeds, and nearly all toy breeds, should not be left out in the cold.

amacca

Discodog wrote: »

A heatpad uses 13 watts - so little you wouldn't be able to detect it on an ESB bill.

what are these?......sort of like an electric blanket for dogs?.....might be interested for cold winters for mine (if I get him)...13 watts is pretty low alright....any of the old bulbs only gave decent light if they were above 100w...so 13w would be cheap to run

Chinasea

I think putting the dog out the back is an old tradition that seems to be dying which I believe is a good thing. I wouldn't dream of putting my poor beloved dog out the back for tons of reasons. I love the creature and don't feel the need to isolate him.

I did see to my horror a posting recently where a lady was asking how to shut her puppy up who was winging all night since she bought him at just 6 weeks old and was determined he would not be a house dog. I mean to say - how could you put the poor wee thing out like that - why bother getting a dog?

Bizzum

Discodog wrote: »

A heatpad uses 13 watts - so little you wouldn't be able to detect it on an ESB bill.

This is a red herring. It is clear to see that I was referring to another posters term 'a red lamp' which I took to be an IR lamp.
I have used IR lamps over the years. I dont just talk the talk.
I dont need google to make points. What I post here and elsewhere (generally) is my experience, which I choose to offer as advice.

Cherry Blossom

I don't mean any offence at all OP, it's just that there are some points where you have explained your situation that I can see would set alarm bells ringing for rescues, one being that the dog won't be in the house, the other - no fences, combine both of these together with no other info and looks pretty bad.

Here's a question for you - if you should end up with a dog that will turn on its tail and make a run for it as soon as you turn your back (this is the default, not the other), are you willing to change the circumstances it will be kept in? Perhaps this question is something you should give some thought to and it will help how you come across to other rescues when you make more enquiries.

Discodog

amacca wrote: »

what are these?......sort of like an electric blanket for dogs?.....might be interested for cold winters for mine (if I get him)...13 watts is pretty low alright....any of the old bulbs only gave decent light if they were above 100w...so 13w would be cheap to run

http://www.petnap.co.uk/acatalog/pet_heat_pads.html#a30

Under no circumstances must these be used without reading & understanding the instructions. For example they must never cover more than 50% of the bed area to allow the dog to move onto an unheated part.

Plug them into a thermostatic adaptor then they only come on when needed.

mikom

amacca wrote: »

is it absolutely vital for a dogs wellbeing they sleep indoors

Yes.
Signed: A. Shedburgler

Discodog

mikom wrote: »

Yes.
Signed: A. Shedburgler

Might seem a joke but if your dog bites a burglar it could end up being put down !

mikom

Discodog wrote: »

Might seem a joke but if your dog bites a burglar it could end up being put down !

I'll take that chance.
Will the burgler?

I might just put a heat mat for him in the shed so that he can warm his crowbar.

carwash_2006

Discodog wrote: »

Might seem a joke but if your dog bites a burglar it could end up being put down !

Which is actually possibly more likely if they are kept in the house and unlikely to have any bearing on the current discussion.

Have you tried Meath pound? Or the South County Dublin pound in Dunboyne?

You can see what dogs are in Meath on their website http://meath.ie/LocalAuthorities/Environment/DogPound-Meath/DogsCurrentlyinMeathDogPound/ seems to be mostly collies and terriers at the moment, but could be worth watching.

Or it could be worth getting in touch with Last Hope, while I would say they prefer indoor homes, they may be able to make exceptions in some cases if they feel the home is a good one.

amacca

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Here's a question for you - if you should end up with a dog that will turn on its tail and make a run for it as soon as you turn your back (this is the default, not the other), are you willing to change the circumstances it will be kept in? Perhaps this question is something you should give some thought to and it will help how you come across to other rescues when you make more enquiries.

I would have to in those circumstances.........I have lots of garden space for a run and could use a high wall and existing dense hedging with sheep wire for two sides + use fence and wire the other two....it just seems such a shame however.....

by way of further explanation I've had two dogs (retriever types) where this was not a problem or necessary...I'd have high hopes if I selected the proper temperament again (+neutered) there would be no need for a fenced in run....seems to be all about the temperament to me

in any event tks for advice...I suppose its just that the forms dont really give you a chance to explain yourself and the lady i spoke to wasn't interested in even listening....but I can understand her reaction tbh given the number of chancers out there and what is probably a high workload and a set of rules with no wiggle room to work around (probably just wasnt worth wasting her time)

Zapperzy

Bizzum wrote: »

A healthy dog (perhaps excluding greyhounds or the like-which were at no time mentioned in this thread) has no more requirement for an IR lamp than a Bullock.
Should we not put all our animals under IR lamps?
I wouldn't like to be paying the ESB bill!

But a bullock is not a dog, they have thicker coats and thicker skin to withstand the cold. And forgive me if I'm wrong but you wouldn't keep a bullock on it's own, generally speaking they'd be with other bullocks so would stand together to keep warm.

You'd put a weak lamb under an IR lamp in march when the temperatures would have increased a little so why not give a dog one in december when the temps go down to a lot lower temperatures.

Bizzum wrote: »

Big big difference between neglect and cold.
I never mentioned neglect. So I will stand over what I said.
Why do greyhounds keep coming into this?

But in my mind keeping a dog outside with just a wooden kennel and some straw even in an unheated outhouse or shed where the temperatures go below -10 is neglect. It's not so bad during the day when they are moving around but to lie still in that and sleep is tough. Greyhounds were just the first breed that popped into my head that suffer particularly bad with cold.

Bizzum wrote: »

This is a red herring. It is clear to see that I was referring to another posters term 'a red lamp' which I took to be an IR lamp.
I have used IR lamps over the years. I dont just talk the talk.
I dont need google to make points. What I post here and elsewhere (generally) is my experience, which I choose to offer as advice.

Yes I was refering to a IR lamp when I said red lamp.
Fair enough thats your experience but this is mine and other's experience and opinions, I haven't googled anything I'm just going by my own knowledge, experience and opinions.