Cycling/Walking around the city

Corinthian

Iwannahurl wrote: »

We don't have to posit a conspiracy theory, or introduce spurious references to "motor industry moguls", to point out that transport policies and engineering practices have for decades been oriented towards prioritising the mobility of private motor vehicles over the access needs of pedestrians, cyclists and bus users.

Positing a conspiracy theory is exactly what the piece of galwaycyclist's post that I quoted was doing. Here it is again:

galwaycyclist wrote:

Therefore the decision to impose this on people who walk was made for some other reason - possibly to give physical expression to a social construct based around particular conceptions of social status and social hierarchies.

Prior to the quoted part, he had pointed out that it's not done for safety or traffic management reasons. Then he jumps from there, past your (reasonable) position of "the council only care about motorists", onto some bizarre form of social engineering project. In this new world, the timings of pedestrian lights are tools to reinforce "particular conceptions of social status and social hierarchies".

Iwannahurl

J o e wrote: »

How likely are the current administration to promote a policy document that has Brian Cowen and Noel Dempsey's names, signatures and photos on the first few pages.... :rolleyes:

They might have even more antipathy towards FF's former coalition partners...

CramCycle wrote: »

I don't think it's a conspiracy, I imagine most road engineers involved where given the remit of handling car volumes as efficiently as possible, and at each junction, lip service to pedestrians as required. Every town and city has these issues in Ireland, I don't think this was planned but it is a result of a culture of only looking after on road traffic and ignoring pedestrians.

...

Terrible thing to say but it appears that it just never occurred to them that some people may walk.

Ireland has for many decades aped the British approach to spatial planning and transportation policy, which in turn was based on (or highly influenced by) the American approach.

It has been described as a "predict and provide" model, which is dominated by an urge to build more roads and accommodate more car traffic. Looks familiar?

Despite recent rhetoric about sustainability and traffic management, Irish policy still seems to be strongly influenced by a Predict & Provide mindset, to say the least. It's politically popular for sure.

Corinthian wrote: »

Positing a conspiracy theory is exactly what the piece of galwaycyclist's post that I quoted was doing. Here it is again:

Prior to the quoted part, he had pointed out that it's not done for safety or traffic management reasons. Then he jumps from there, past your (reasonable) position of "the council only care about motorists", onto some bizarre form of social engineering project. In this new world, the timings of pedestrian lights are tools to reinforce "particular conceptions of social status and social hierarchies".

It's a philosophical or sociological perspective perhaps. I agree with galwaycyclist that the planning of the city and the engineering of our roads is based on a social hierarchy in which car owners and occupants are officially (as well as popularly) regarded as The People That Matter. An Garda Siochana has a very similar cultural attitude, in my experience.

What I'm saying is that you don't need to categorise such hypotheses as conspiracy theories, because there's already enough rational theory to go on.

Iwannahurl

Iwannahurl wrote: »

As an example of the way walking is systematically restricted in some areas of the city, it took me 3.5 minutes to cross the road at Moneenageisha Cross last week. The physical distance is just over 20 metres, but crossing in three stages, conscientiously waiting for the Green Man, took an absurdly long time. Meanwhile motorised traffic was whizzing through the junction in all directions, with only short wait times.

I went to the same location (on the Dublin Road) again today, but this time I had learned my lesson, and I was in a rush, so I drove through the junction.

The traffic was backed up to around here.

I checked the clock on the dashboard, and it took me two minutes to clear the junction. It was the same on the way back, this time turning right onto the R339 Wellpark Road. It is clear to me that the signals are holding up pedestrians in order to maximise throughput of motorised traffic. And not by mistake either.

Incidentally, my next destination was in Ballybane Industrial Estate. According to the till receipt I completed my transaction at 13:15.

I was sure I was going to be dead late, but in fact I was able to do the school pick-up nearly 8 km away pretty much on time just after 13:30. I stopped at every red light, stuck to the speed limit and parked legally about 250 metres from the school.

So that's 3.5 minutes for a pedestrian to cross one road at Moneenageisha, and 15 minutes for a driver to traverse the city.

And we're to believe motorists have it bad?

Iwannahurl

Iwannahurl wrote: »

I went to the same location (on the Dublin Road) again today, but this time I had learned my lesson, and I was in a rush, so I drove through the junction.

The traffic was backed up to around here.

I checked the clock on the dashboard, and it took me two minutes to clear the junction. It was the same on the way back, this time turning right onto the R339 Wellpark Road. It is clear to me that the signals are holding up pedestrians in order to maximise throughput of motorised traffic. And not by mistake either.

Incidentally, my next destination was in Ballybane Industrial Estate. According to the till receipt I completed my transaction at 13:15.

I was sure I was going to be dead late, but in fact I was able to do the school pick-up nearly 8 km away pretty much on time just after 13:30. I stopped at every red light, stuck to the speed limit and parked legally about 250 metres from the school.

So that's 3.5 minutes for a pedestrian to cross one road at Moneenageisha, and 15 minutes for a driver to traverse the city.

And we're to believe motorists have it bad?

Of course its not by mistake, the number of cars going through the junction vastly exceeds the number of pedestrians, especially that for out of town so makes sense to prioritise traffic getting through the junction.

Also no one is forcing you to wait for the green man only yourself, id say I wait for the green man 1 in 10 times I cross the road.

Iwannahurl

Camilo Tight Shrew wrote: »

Of course its not by mistake, the number of cars going through the junction vastly exceeds the number of pedestrians, especially that for out of town so makes sense to prioritise traffic getting through the junction.

Also no one is forcing you to wait for the green man only yourself, id say I wait for the green man 1 in 10 times I cross the road.

Precisely. It's deliberate, systematic and widespread.

It's also done on routes where children are walking to primary and secondary school.

With regard to not waiting for the Green Man, what about children, older people who may be slow on their feet, disabled people in wheelchairs, vision-impaired people?

Unfortunately attitudes likes yours saturate our local and national authorities, which is why we are where we are as a city and as a nominal republic.

galwaycyclist

Camilo Tight Shrew wrote: »

Of course its not by mistake, the number of cars going through the junction vastly exceeds the number of pedestrians, especially that for out of town so makes sense to prioritise traffic getting through the junction.

Also no one is forcing you to wait for the green man only yourself, id say I wait for the green man 1 in 10 times I cross the road.

No missing the point. The way these junctions are set up removes time from pedestrians in situations where cars are stopped anyway.

It is more than simply prioritising traffic its about deliberately impeding the lawful use of the roads by people on foot for no additional benefit for motor traffic.

Your low compliance with pedestrian signals proves the point. Several generations of British/Irish traffic engineers have been training several generations of people on foot to ignore pedestrian signals.

Iwannahurl

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Your low compliance with pedestrian signals proves the point. Several generations of British/Irish traffic engineers have been training several generations of people on foot to ignore pedestrian signals.

All part of the same culture perhaps.

Even though it's often frustrating, I try to train my kids to cross carefully only on the Green Man. Meanwhile adults, older children and occasionally younger children can be seen crossing ad lib. I know of at least one staged/staggered signalised crossing where a School Traffic Warden is posted but where breaking of red lights by motorists is a daily occurrence. Meanwhile, because the warden can cover only one half of the crossing, kids are left to traverse the other half on their own. Some wait for the Green Man, but of course that doesn't mean motorists will stop. Others cross on the red light, because they think the Warden has given them the all clear. A very Irish situation overall, I would suggest.

Just this morning I had a bus driver, who was obstructing a Pelican crossing while stopped at a red light, gesture at us to cross without waiting for the Green Man. I have no idea what the driver was thinking, but I would not let my child cross. Sure enough a couple of cars came round the corner seconds later.

Two weeks ago, for the first time ever since starting school, and while waiting at the same junction, my child suddenly decided not to wait for my instruction and started to cross on the Green Man. I had to shout stop with some urgency, because the second of two cars breaking the red light was approaching. The first driver had already gone through, having previously driven up on the footpath to get around right-turning traffic.

There are incidents like this during the morning school run every week. No engineering fixes forthcoming, and never any enforcement.

CramCycle

Iwannahurl wrote: »

There are incidents like this during the morning school run every week. No engineering fixes forthcoming, and never any enforcement.

Red light cameras, simples, it will take about two months for them to have any real effect, no advertising which lights have them, just start at the reported junctions with overnight installs. Fine in the post within 28days, by which time they will have paid more than enough for the Garda checking the footage, the install, the security and the installation of a couple more.

They have some red light cameras in Dublin to monitor junctions but why they don't have VNPR and fines attached is beyond me.

CramCycle

CramCycle wrote: »

Red light cameras, simples, it will take about two months for them to have any real effect, no advertising which lights have them, just start at the reported junctions with overnight installs. Fine in the post within 28days, by which time they will have paid more than enough for the Garda checking the footage, the install, the security and the installation of a couple more.

They have some red light cameras in Dublin to monitor junctions but why they don't have VNPR and fines attached is beyond me.

I would imagine they can't just put up cameras without warning people (and rightly so). Solicitors would have a field day in court getting people off under all sorts of technicalities.

Mrs OBumble

Camilo Tight Shrew wrote: »

I would imagine they can't just put up cameras without warning people (and rightly so). Solicitors would have a field day in court getting people off under all sorts of technicalities.

Easily fixed: A sign on all traffic lights "red light cameras may be operating"

Mrs OBumble

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Easily fixed: A sign on all traffic lights "red light cameras may be operating"

Yes that would be fine however the jist of the post (imo) was to say nothing to catch people unawares, which totally aside from whether I agree or not with it would probably be illegal.

Paddico

vale8jabs wrote: »

Its a shame more people don't cycle given the compact size of Galway city and the problems with traffic congestion. What can be done to encourage cycling in the city? personally I find many of the roads are unsafe for cyclists at present.

Throw a roof over the town and your get more cyclists out

CramCycle

Camilo Tight Shrew wrote: »

I would imagine they can't just put up cameras without warning people (and rightly so). Solicitors would have a field day in court getting people off under all sorts of technicalities.

Pass a statutory instrument that allows for them. Someone breaking the law and being caught on camera, does not have the right to say i did not know there was a camera there. It's no different than a Garda standing "discretely" behind a wall or tree to catch a speeder. People can say it all they want in court about entrapment but no one tricked or trapped them into breaking the lights so it would not hold up.

You could also ensure the fine was low enough that engaging a solicitor was not a realistic approach.

I find it hard to believe that someone would engage a solicitor over a 60euro fine, of which there is evidence that they are guilty, for a potentially higher penalty in court.

The only issue I know of is that (possibly from the legal forum) that you would have to have the camera prove the light was red in the video or picture itself, hardly impossible to achieve though. Otherwise people can argue about timing discrepancies or the potential thereof.

CramCycle

CramCycle wrote: »

Pass a statutory instrument that allows for them. Someone breaking the law and being caught on camera, does not have the right to say i did not know there was a camera there. It's no different than a Garda standing "discretely" behind a wall or tree to catch a speeder. People can say it all they want in court about entrapment but no one tricked or trapped them into breaking the lights so it would not hold up.

Well for a start Go Safe mobile speed vans can only be placed in locations which have warning signs of the possibility of speed vans ahead so its not just me making things up.

CramCycle wrote: »

You could also ensure the fine was low enough that engaging a solicitor was not a realistic approach.

I find it hard to believe that someone would engage a solicitor over a 60euro fine, of which there is evidence that they are guilty, for a potentially higher penalty in court.

Thousands of people contest speeding charges every year and thats only an 80 euro fine, its more so for the points they do it and as there would also be points with breaking a red light I see no reason people wouldn't contest this too. It should also be pointed out a lot of people do get off with speeding in court due to various different reasons.

CramCycle

Camilo Tight Shrew wrote: »

Well for a start Go Safe mobile speed vans can only be placed in locations which have warning signs of the possibility of speed vans ahead so its not just me making things up.

I didn't say you were making things up? I just said that not knowing there is a camera is not a legitimate reason to have evidence excluded in court. A garda can have a camera in many places subject to certain safety provisions without warning. The gosafe vans warnings are presumably to have the affect of causing people to slow down regardless of the presence of a van.

Thousands of people contest speeding charges every year and thats only an 80 euro fine, its more so for the points they do it and as there would also be points with breaking a red light I see no reason people wouldn't contest this too. It should also be pointed out a lot of people do get off with speeding in court due to various different reasons.

Alot don't and have their penalty points increased in court. I am not saying that no one should protest, its what the legal system is there for, if you feel the accusation is incorrect/false, by all means protest, hence why you need it to be foolproof system. Also why I suggested having a S.I. implemented removing the need of notification to motorists that the cameras are present. They would be inconspicuous so there is no risk of a driver suddenly seeing the camera and crashing at speed which I presume is the other point of the warning signs.

snubbleste

Does anyone know what the Council policy on bollard erections are?
They are breeding rapidly. The latest is along the eastern side of Eglinton Street, which in my view is unnecessary, as motorists don't tend to park on the footpath there

what_traffic

snubbleste wrote: »

Does anyone know what the Council policy on bollard erections are?
They are breeding rapidly. The latest is along the eastern side of Eglinton Street, which in my view is unnecessary, as motorists don't tend to park on the footpath there

Who supplies them to the Council?
Hate the ones on the footpath between Fisheries Tower and Raven Terrace. Unnecessary.

snubbleste

what_traffic wrote: »

Who supplies them to the Council?
Hate the ones on the footpath between Fisheries Tower and Raven Terrace. Unnecessary.

Ballbuzz Terrz Inc

snubbleste

snubbleste wrote: »

Big arsed electronic sign blocking the footpath yet again outside Pillo Hotel. Infacta it looks exactly like this from two years ago. Maybe I've gone back in time.

Another one deliberately obstructing the footpath on N6 between Ballybane & Tuam Rd junctions.

what_traffic

Came across this article yesterday. Tragic story.
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/sociable-happy-student-fatally-injured-after-fall-in-dark-car-park-after-college-ball-31157094.html

Have not seen any coverage in the local press about this case.

what_traffic

In the local media today - but they are quoting from the Irish Times so maybe were not aware?
http://connachttribune.ie/inquest-finds-connemara-student-died-following-fall-at-city-carpark/

Robbo

That inquest was in Dublin.

Mrs OBumble

Robbo wrote: »

That inquest was in Dublin.

But the carpark it's about is in Galway. Shocking that local media have tried to bury it.

Iwannahurl

IMO it's odd that the Coroner's comments about the lack of a railing are reported, but there's not a lot said about the role of alcohol.

Coroner Dr Brian Farrell pointed to the configuration of the car park as a risk factor in the death and returned a verdict of misadventure. He will also write to Galway City Council recommending they install railings.

Dr Farrell has highlighted alcohol as a risk factor in previous cases. Falls account for a sizeable enough proportion of Traumatic Brain Injury, and alcohol accounts for a sizeable proportion of falls.

Delicia

Iwannahurl wrote: »

IMO it's odd that the Coroner's comments about the lack of a railing are reported, but there's not a lot said about the role of alcohol

They did mention alcohol - “While I was with Ronan, we were both merry but I wouldn’t say that we were very drunk,” (His friend) "He was not stumbling and seemed focused on one point" (Taxi driver).

At the end of the day a life was lost that could have been prevented - all for the want of a railing

what_traffic

Delicia wrote: »

At the end of the day a life was lost that could have been prevented - all for the want of a railing

Car park is of a low design standard and even implementation of this poor design from Galway City Council is found wanting.

Mrs OBumble

Iwannahurl wrote: »

IMO it's odd that the Coroner's comments about the lack of a railing are reported, but there's not a lot said about the role of alcohol.

Dr Farrell has highlighted alcohol as a risk factor in previous cases. Falls account for a sizeable enough proportion of Traumatic Brain Injury, and alcohol accounts for a sizeable proportion of falls.

So we'd have to conclude that in this case, he thinks it was not a major factor, and that the lack of public safety infrastructure was the main cause.


This isn't the first case where the coroner has effectively said "build some damn barriers", and we've taken very little notice.

Iwannahurl

Crumbs868 wrote: »

Dismount bike and walk on the footpath with bike for all of 3 mins? Not exactly rocket science, a classic example of using ones brain and the very reason why humans rule the planet

Ah yes, but cars (actually motorists) rule Galway, which is really the point.

You see, it's the cyclists who are being asked to walk, not the motorists.

Iwannahurl

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

So we'd have to conclude that in this case, he thinks it was not a major factor, and that the lack of public safety infrastructure was the main cause.

This isn't the first case where the coroner has effectively said "build some damn barriers", and we've taken very little notice.

Delicia wrote: »

They did mention alcohol - “While I was with Ronan, we were both merry but I wouldn’t say that we were very drunk,” (His friend) "He was not stumbling and seemed focused on one point" (Taxi driver).

At the end of the day a life was lost that could have been prevented - all for the want of a railing

They are witness statements. If the Coroner commented about alcohol, his remarks were not reported in the press coverage I have seen.

Now that I think of it, the same Coroner identified cycle helmets as a factor in another case in which alcohol had a role. He wrote another letter about that, but in the media reports there was no mention of Blood Alcohol Concentration.

A clear causal relationship has been established between alcohol consumption and increased risk of Traumatic Brain Injury, drowning, car crashes etc. The higher the BAC the greater the risk, all other things being equal. That is the main issue to be addressed. Protective structures such as railings may be required, but the insidious role of alcohol means that relatively minor hazards can became lethal ones in certain circumstances.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/coroner-s-court/coroner-warns-on-chip-pan-dangers-after-drinking-alcohol-1.2184034

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2704016/Drunk-student-died-tripping-pothole-cracking-skull-way-home-friends-birthday-party.html

http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/drowning-victim-may-have-tripped-untied-shoelace-coroner-6115847

http://www.gloucestershireecho.co.uk/Gregarious-man-stumbled-death-coroner/story-16668453-detail/story.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2908372/Camilla-s-brother-Mark-Shand-died-downing-champagne-five-whiskies-fatal-fall-coroner-rules-alcohol-played-major-role-death.html

Iwannahurl

Iwannahurl wrote: »

You see, it's the cyclists who are being asked to walk, not the motorists.

They don't have to they can cycle around the road as the cars have to. Cyclists are after all very found of reminding everyone that they are entitled to use the road and have as much right as other vehicles so why not use the road the way other vehicles do rather than looking for special treatment.

Or just walk the short walk with the bike......