Clay Shooting Beginner Advise Required

carnsteve

Hi ALL,

Im looking for some help & advise

I am interested in taking up Clay Shooting & have sent a letter to a local shooting club. - (I have not yet been upto the club)

A friend took me out today to have a go with his Over & under 12 Guage shotgun.

It nearly tore my arm off! It was soooo painful.
I know there are different types of guns and you can get butt pads but again im new to all this so realy looking for some help and advise.

Will I be able to shoot without all the pain?

Many thanks

Cass

Moving to Target forum.

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Clays can be a bit sore on the shoulder if you haven't done it before. Correct hold and keeping the gun in tight to your shoulder will eliminate any kick. You should get more of a shove than a kick.

Practise will get you there. You can buy aftermarket pads to lessen the "kick", but its still going to "kick". Nature of the beast unfortunately.

Have you a gun yourself, and if so what is it?

homerhop

Were you shown how to mount the gun right? Did you lie into the gun instead of leaning back, that will throw you off balance and kick like a mule. What parish are you in?

FISMA

HomerHop is correct, there has to be something wrong.

1) You're probably not keeping the stock tight on the shoulder.
2) You're not shouldering it properly - stock sits high or low.
3) You're probably trying to mount the shotgun to a closed shoulder, rather than opened.

Even a 12ga doesn't kick much when handled properly.

A lot of shooters try and put the stock to the shoulder while their arms are in front of them (perpendicular to the chest). If you do this, your shoulder is closed.

Sometimes you have to do this, like hunting birds when a snap shot is necessary.

Instead, for trap and skeet, you should try and start with an open shoulder (like when you arms are parallel to the chest - crucifixion type pose - sorry for that analogy). As the firearm is shouldered, bring your arms to the firing position (perpendicular), that is cup the stock with your shoulder.

Try it. It makes more sense when you feel what I am talking about.

When you get good at this, you won't have to swing the shotgun much.

Another example.
Take your right hand hold it parallel to the ground and inline with your body. Take your left hand and place it where the stock will go. Now rotate your right hand towards the front of your body. Do you feel how your shoulder closes on your left hand? That's what you want to do with the stock.

Sorry if that's long winded - two minutes to write, two seconds to show.

Slan

Tackleberrywho

Or you were firing my da's Old Stevens Shotgun

Most CLAY/TRAP guns are designed for continious usage and are milder on recoil.

A Semi Automatic shotgun's recoil is teh Mildest as some of the energy is absorbed in cycling mechanism.

Pitty my 12g Semi only likes expensive shells for trap shooting

carnsteve

Hi all ,

Thanks for the reply's
where to start..

I dont own my own gun yet but i will be looking at getting one,

Im not sure if i was holding it correcly but then i was not corrected if I was holding it wrong..

Im in Inishowen, Co. Donegal..

Im only 5 foot 4 and about 10.5 stone and im quite skinny so dont have much to put behind any recoil but as you have allready said im proberbly doing somthing wrong..

Steve

Tackleberrywho

carnsteve wrote: »

Hi all ,

Thanks for the reply's
where to start..

I dont own my own gun yet but i will be looking at getting one,

Im not sure if i was holding it correcly but then i was not corrected if I was holding it wrong..

Im in Inishowen, Co. Donegal..

Im only 5 foot 4 and about 10.5 stone and im quite skinny so dont have much to put behind any recoil but as you have allready said im proberbly doing somthing wrong..

Steve

I'm over 14 stone and I still feel a double barrells kick.
Heavier gun, less felt recoil, semi Auto sounds like the gun for you though.

Look up Remington Versa Max on youtube!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wl2pjipVoCE

Explains all better than I can!

carnsteve

I know there is always going to be a kick as someone pointed out its the nature of the beast, but just wondered if there was a way of lowering it

Ill take a look at the Remington Versa Max the video looks good

BTW - My shoulder is killing me today!

Steve

homerhop

carnsteve wrote: »

Hi all ,

Thanks for the reply's
where to start..

I dont own my own gun yet but i will be looking at getting one,

Im not sure if i was holding it correcly but then i was not corrected if I was holding it wrong..

Im in Inishowen, Co. Donegal..

Im only 5 foot 4 and about 10.5 stone and im quite skinny so dont have much to put behind any recoil but as you have allready said im proberbly doing somthing wrong..

Steve

Right you are only starting off so go on the right foot. No offense meant to other posters advising what gun to get but you just cant say such and such will suit you, stock may be too short/long, comb may not be right or enough cast in it. Do you know many other lads that shoot. If so see if they will let you get a shot out of their guns. See what feels right to hold and mount. There may be someone in a club near you who does a bit of clay shooting, ask them can they give you some pointers.
Your build shouldnt make that much of a difference if you are shown how to mount the gun properly. When I started shooting I was like a bean pole, had a 28inch game gun that would leave me black and blue shooting clays but I used to use my friends and I could shoot all day long with it.

seye

Get a lesson from a trained coach with a decent club gun, it's almost certainly the mount or the gun causing you grief. You could also try Eley Subsonic "Hushpower" cartridges, they make a big difference in recoil.

Tackleberrywho

carnsteve wrote: »

I know there is always going to be a kick as someone pointed out its the nature of the beast, but just wondered if there was a way of lowering it

Ill take a look at the Remington Versa Max the video looks good

BTW - My shoulder is killing me today!

Steve

The thing I like about the Versa max is that it is fully adjustable as standard.
It also is very simply but effectively designed for shooting strong to weak load shells by the staggered gas port system.

My Remington 105CTi is as light a kick as some .223 rifles.
My mate call it a girlie gun as you can fire it with a T-Shirt on all day.
Now that the meadow is cut at home we can break clays into the side of the hill on the top paddock out of my clay trap.

I was never a big fan of recoil, accuracy is improved if recoil is managed effectively.
I personally can not fire a Versa max, so I will have to struggle away until they invent a double down action for them


When I was a young fella we had no Intreeweb but there was good books in teh Library of all places :eek:

But having someone show you is the ultimate way of learning. Some guys video them selves and then can see where they are going wrong themselves.

carnsteve

Ill have a look,

Im currently waiting for a letter back from the gun club so I can go up and have a few shots with a teacher.

I found out I was using Eley Maximum cartridge Number 4 with 34gm of shot if that means anything to you ...

Steve

Cass

Thats a strong enough game cartridge, and would never be used for clays. You want to use no more than a 7.5 28gr. Remember that in terms of cartridges the LOWER the number the stronger the shot.

So make sure you are using between 7.5 - 9.5 26-28gr cartridges.

carnsteve

so as a beginner would it be worth me looking for a .410 or 20 Gauge to start with doing Clay shooting?

I know the spread on a 410 is more concertraited so would make a harder shot
Steve

homerhop

carnsteve wrote: »

so as a beginner would it be worth me looking for a .410 or 20 Gauge to start with doing Clay shooting?

I know the spread on a 410 is more concertraited so would make a harder shot
Steve

There is no difference in recoil between a 12g and a 20g

carnsteve

So would a .410 be an option?

Steve

homerhop

To be honest I would try a few more 12g guns first with the right shell size such as 7.5. You will find a gun that wont kick like a mule and is very comfortable for you to handle.
Looking at the likes of the 20g and .410 for shooting clays you will have to take into account the cost of the ammo at nearly double the price per box for the 20g and how many dealers actually stock for a .410.
I know your shoulder hurts but dont be put off by it. You were using shells that were for game hunting with a gun that may not have suited you and not shown how to mount it correctly.

Tackleberrywho

homerhop wrote: »

There is no difference in recoil between a 12g and a 20g

Really?
I know the 16G is mild and the .410 my Grandad had was a pussycat

I would have assumed that 1/20 of a pound had less recoil than 1/12??

It wasn't me!

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Really?
I know the 16G is mild and the .410 my Grandad had was a pussycat

I would have assumed that 1/20 of a pound had less recoil than 1/12??

It's a much smaller frame. A Beretta Silver Pigeon 20 bore weighs about as much as my 12 bore side by side and recoil would be indistinguishable from its 12 bore cousin.

Tackleberrywho

It wasn't me! wrote: »

It's a much smaller frame. A Beretta Silver Pigeon 20 bore weighs about as much as my 12 bore side by side and recoil would be indistinguishable from its 12 bore cousin.

I only know one old man who has a 20g, and he always maintained it was mild recoil and easy to carry

I've fired a 16g and a .410

The .410 was a huge disappointment
Would not knock a football off a fence post at 20 yards and just shook it

The OP fired No4's which not very hard hitting are much harder than trap shells.
I can Verify that my brothers 12G SXS kicks more than my 12G Semi with the same shells, it also has no recoil pad so the butt is rough on the shoulder.

An Old man I know put a recoil pad on his shotty and now can shoot it all day

http://www.opticswarehouse.co.uk/products.asp?cat=596

homerhop

Was reading a reply to a question in Junes Sporting Gun.Female reader was getting into clays and was using a 12g but wanted to know would a 20g be better. John Bidwell answered the following
"If you are happy with the weight of the 12g stick with it, you will find it steadier to shoot with than a lighter 20g, and the effects of recoil from firing a long succession of cartridges will be reduced too."

He goes on to say that a 20 gague comes into its own for game shooting where you will be firing less shots in a short space of time than on a shooting ground,

Tackleberrywho

I also read the 20G like the 16 and the .10 come into it's own firing slugs through a rifles barrel

My Grandad bought the .410 for the Granny to use if he was gone and something came intl the Veg garden to do harm.

The Only complaint she had was it was still very heavy.
Harrington & Richardson Single Barrel :eek:

It now belongs to my cousin who maintains it is a 25 yard gun

In regards the OP
I'd try getting lessons, getting a gun that fits, Starting on teh lightest 26/8gram loads and using a recoil absorber

After that the rest comes with practice

chickenfarmer

carnsteve wrote: »

So would a .410 be an option?

Steve

You are better off with a 12guage, if for nothing else but availability of cartridges. As said before the heavier the gun the less the recoil. Fit is everything tho. Get yourself to a proper coach and they will steer you in the right direction. Also there are lighter loads like the Express 21g high velocity load which are very light on the shoulder and the RC3 24g low noise (low noise been the important part of that) which practically has no kick. The grounds we go to for practice uses the low noise the whole time for beginners. We can all advise you on what to get gun wise but best bet if its something that you want to take up then get yourself to a coach. Clay shooting when you get into it can be fairly expensive so getting off to a good start with the right gun that fits you is half the battle.

seye

Mountains out of molehills.

You shot one gun of unknown quality with no instruction on form and heavy load cartridges, before you go bananas looking at 410s, which my 7 year old daughter uses by the way and is a waste of your time and money, get one hour of an club instructor's time with a decent gun and ammo. It'll cost you 30-50 euro depending where you go.

Relax.

FISMA

carnsteve wrote: »

so as a beginner would it be worth me looking for a .410 or 20

Carnsteve,
I would advise against getting the .410Gauge. The 20ga may be a good idea. However, I would suggest a 12ga.

seye wrote: »

... 410s, which my 7 year old daughter uses by the way and is a waste of your time and money...

I also advise against a 410 for kids.

A 410 is a severe handicap when you are starting.

I have used a 410 only a handful of times. The better I shoot, the smaller the gauge. I like the 20ga for practice. The costs are the same and when I show up in the field on opening day with the 12ga, hitting targets seems easier.

When you show up to the trap and skeet range with a 410, you're making a statement - you're good. So good that you feel the need to handicap yourself.

I find when kids start off with the 410 often become discouraged when they cannot hit or chip a single clay. Often, they just want to drop the sport.:(

For the kids, I would suggest a light load in a 20ga auto with a shorter barrel.

I have a 20ga and a few 12ga's. The 20ga O/U has less kick than the 12ga's in general.

chickenfarmer wrote: »

You are better off with a 12guage, if for nothing else but availability of cartridges.

+1
Check the price on ammo and availability. I find that the 12 and 20ga's are about the same. However, the 410 is ridiculously priced.

Another "+" for the 12ga is shooting later on. Do you plan on doing any hunting: ducks, pheasants, snipe, or culling of pests?

Where I shoot in Longford along the Shannon, you would not have a hope in dropping a duck with a 410 and little chance with a 20ga. For upland game, the 20ga may work if the birds aren't skitterish.

However, the 12ga is going to be the best overall choice.

carnsteve wrote: »

Im only 5 foot 4 and about 10.5 stone ...

Your height to weight ratio are fine. Given your soreness, I again, suspect that your shouldering technique is the problem. Missing targets when you shoulder feels fine - that's when I suspect a fitting problem. You may have a combo of both, but the soreness is almost surely due to not shouldering the firearm correctly.

carnsteve wrote: »

...to start with doing Clay shooting?

For skeet shooting, you may shoot a 20ga better than a 12ga. Too many people show up to the skeet range with a long barrel 28" or 30" for example. When it comes time to swing through the target, they just cannot catch up.

For trap, the longer barrel will help increase the muzzle velocity of the shot and you'll be able to reach out to greater distances. Thus, I would prefer the 12ga over the 20ga.

Decisions, decisions...

seye

"I also advise against a 410 for kids. "

She's 7. She can't manoeuvre anything heavier so it's a 410 or nothing at all.

I take your point the targets are harder to hit but the simple solution to that is to make them easier.

FISMA

Another choice, if you have money, is to buy something like a Ruger Red Label in 12ga.

There are tubes that you can buy that allow you to shoot 28ga, 20ga, sweet 16's, or 410.

These tubes can, however, be just as expensive as a second firearm.

A cheaper alternative is to buy sleeves, such as this one

You should be able to find one that would allow a 20ga to be shot through a 12ga like this one on ebay.

Note: I have never used one and I imagine that a true 20ga would be more accurate than a 20ga shell fired from a sleeve in a 12ga (bigger barrel + less shot = more spread than 20ga).

The sleeves come in just about any configuration you can imagine. I think I remember seeing sleeves that would shoot 9mm, 45ACP, 22lr,... :eek:

I think the great thing about the 12ga to 20ga sleeve is that you can use your game day shotty, with a handicap. True, the 20ga is a handicap when it comes to the amount of shot (+1), but she's easier to swing (-1).

The sleeve allows you to swing the big shotgun (+1) and be handicapped by the amount (number of) shot pellets (+1).

Just a thought!

seye wrote: »

She's 7. She can't manoeuvre anything heavier so it's a 410 or nothing at all.

I take your point the targets are harder to hit but the simple solution to that is to make them easier.

Seye - I should have been more clear. I hesitate to get kids shooting trap and skeet with a 410. Having them shoot at stationary targets or easier ones is indeed the way to go.

I have just seen too many kids get discouraged on the same range I shoot trap and skeet shooting a gun that I probably wouldn't break much with either. Heck, there have been many times that I know the only reason I chipped the clay was because there were sooooo many pellets!

Slan

Cass

I'm assuming all this talk of children with .410 shotguns is in relation to events outside the ROI as no-one under 14, or without the proper training/full license can have, use or possess a firearm of ANY kind.

seye

FISMA wrote: »

A cheaper alternative is to buy sleeves, such as this one

Slan

What's the patterning like with a sleeve? The wad and shot will not carry well down the barrel I'd guess. Interesting idea though, must look into trying one out. (One thing that should be pointed out is that switching gauges should be done with care, if a low gauge cartridge sneaks down the barrel it's pretty dangerous.)

seye

Ezridax wrote: »

I'm assuming all this talk of children with .410 shotguns is in relation to events outside the ROI as no-one under 14, or without the proper training/full license can have, use or possess a firearm of ANY kind.

Well, the UK since you are checking. You seem to be saying nobody can use a firearm in Ireland without a certificate. There are a number of places in Ireland that make a living from office types firing shotguns without certificates. You do need to be 14 to submit an FCA1, but you don't need a cert to shoot under instruction.

bunny shooter

I think you'll find here in Republic of Ireland that under the legislation anyone under 14 cannot use a firearm at all. It used to be 16 until recently. At 14 they can now apply for a Training Licence on someone elses firearm.

Cass

seye wrote: »

Well, the UK since you are checking.

I am checking.

The discussion of illegal activities is prohibited, and its the mods responsibility to ensure that no such talk be allowed. Boards.ie may seem overly "PC" to alot of new and regular users however this is not born out of some over bearing moderators feeling the need to control and steer all conversations in a direction they see fit. It comes from Boards.ie (the site) being around long enough to know that some conversations/comments may lead to court cases, lawsuits, etc.

The owners and admins that run the site have to safeguard the site above all else. Thats NO reflection on you or your commments. We have alot of users from abroad and they discuss some topics that are classed as illegal here in Ireland, but until we get a definitive answer from the user we have to stop the comments.

You are in the UK where laws surrounding firearms differ. Air rifles, age limits, etc. Now that you have explained it, thats the matter put to bed.

You seem to be saying nobody can use a firearm in Ireland without a certificate. There are a number of places in Ireland that make a living from office types firing shotguns without certificates. You do need to be 14 to submit an FCA1, but you don't need a cert to shoot under instruction.

Anyone under 14 cannot legally own a firearm unless under the supervision of a fully licensed person and unless they have possession of a training certificate. The company events/ranges you speak of are still around and of course you are correct that they run these day shooting events. They have the necessary insurance, coachs, etc, and you are also right that anyone can attend these. I will not speculate on the age limit of the places as i'm not 100% sure if there is a legal age limit or if it is set by the range itself. The two i have attended that allow these sort of events will not allow anyone under 14 to shoot.

All your points are valid and if this was explained in your opening post there would be no need to ask you. However your statement of "My 7 year old daughter uses one............" without any description of the location or details around this lead to my posting. This is not a personal "vendetta" or anything of the sort. We all know (here and in the UK) how things work in real life. How there are laws that the Gardai/Police force allow to go "unchecked", but there is a difference between what is done and what is legally allowed to be spoken about, especially on a very public and open forum.

bunny shooter wrote: »

I think you'll find here in Republic of Ireland that under the legislation anyone under 14 cannot use a firearm at all. It used to be 16 until recently. At 14 they can now apply for a Training Licence on someone elses firearm.

Quite right. Under the forum charter a mod can ask or make a statement on a thread for the purpose of clarifying a point of law. It is not a reflection on the OP and it is in no way an accussation against the OP. In some cases its to clarify a point in others its simply asking the OP for clarification.

This is not a chastisement, warning or anything of the sort. I felt the need for this long explanation for not only your benefit, but also the benefit of others that may read this thread.

I hope thats clears up any misunderstandings.

Cass

Also my apologies to the OP. I do not want to derail your thread, but felt it necessary to explain all the above.

seye

Ezridax wrote: »

I hope thats clears up any misunderstandings.

I think you'll find any misunderstanding was yours. My failure to offer full details on an ancillary comment that my daughter does not own a gun and merely used one under instruction in another country seems to have green lit a free for all of ill informed lecturing. Instead of blaming me for your presumptions why not just say it made you uncomfortable in your role as a mod for whatever reason and delete it? Alternatively PM can be used to contact a poster to do your checking without drawing attention away from the thread. Either way would have been fine.

Cass

seye wrote: »

I think you'll find any misunderstanding was yours.

Correct. Hence my asking for further explanation. You understood what you posted i did not.

........... seems to have green lit a free for all of ill informed lecturing.

Nobody is lecturing you merely offering you the law as it stands.

Instead of blaming me for your presumptions why not just say it made you uncomfortable in your role as a mod for whatever reason and delete it?

I am not "blaming" you for anything. There is no need for deletion, and especially now that the matter has been cleared up.

Alternatively PM can be used to contact a poster to do your checking without drawing attention away from the thread. Either way would have been fine.

If i were to PM you and seek clarification i would still ask you to post a message or post a message myself for all to see. As said previously this is an open and public forum that is read by many people and the clearer a picture that is portrayed for all to read the less grief everyone gets. There isn't an issue and now that you have clarified that as someone that does not live in this country you are not held to the same standards/laws we are.

Tackleberrywho

Great clip on Fieldsports channel anout Shotgun fitting.

!!
july in Northern Ireland Game Fair

FISMA

Seve,
EZ isn't trying to be an @$$ or pick a fight, just following orders, which he must do so ever since he went to the dark side!

He's fair and he really knows his stuff. You'll find that he is a great source of knowledge, aside from board rules:D.

I am guilty in this one too - I am in the states - my comment was not intended for Ireland.

Just the other day I went shooting trap and skeet and there was a troop there - of girl scouts! All were kids, very well supervised, and sooooooo happy to be out with their fathers and troop leaders.

They first marched them all around and taught them safety with wooden guns - funniest things I have ever seen. They were then given a 28ga (I think) with Dad's and troop leaders at their side, literally, to shoot the beginner field - straight away's.

Anyhow, for us outside, it is important to be clear whenever giving advice, hints, or even just feedback.

God forbid someone inadvertently reads a post, assumes we're talking about Ireland, and then gets into trouble. Whatever about taking advice from strangers online or legalities, if someone gets hurt, especially a kid, because I forgot a footnote, shame on me.

Safety first, even online.

Slan

Tackleberrywho

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjifoLehDFk

9 mins in, a very informative clip from an expert
(sorry I said July when I should have said June)