Major changes to welfare and training ahead...

mackg · 25-07-2011 8:31am #1

TAOISEACH ENDA KENNY has announced a huge shake-up of Ireland’s welfare and training systems over the coming months.

He said the government is set to unveil details of what he called “the most radical shake-up in our welfare, employment and training systems and services in a generation”. The measures aim to “focus our limited resources on those with genuine need” and “make sure people are better off in work than on welfare,” he added.

Mr Kenny was speaking at the MacGill Summer School in Glenties, Co Donegal yesterday, his second major speech in a week after his searing Dáil attack on the Vatican last Wednesday. He told RTÉ that he had received thousands of messages of support from around the world following his response to the Cloyne report on clerical abuse, including “hundreds” from parish priests across Ireland.

Giving the school’s annual John Hume lecture, Mr Kenny also warned that further austerity measures are on the way for Irish taxpayers – and signalled that these could come in the form of service cuts rather than tax hikes. Warning of “difficult decisions and times ahead,” he said: “We cannot tax our way back to economic recovery.
Some of the services and entitlements the State is now providing we can no longer afford, either at their current levels or at all. Other services we can continue to provide only if we make them cheaper to deliver through radical reforms in the way the public service works to cut out waste and duplication.

Mr Kenny hailed the reduction of Ireland’s bailout interest rate at the Eurozone summit last Thursday, saying EU leaders had “put aside national politics and lead instead in the interest of all Europeans.”
He added that people should not believe economists who have said defaulting on our debts could be Ireland’s best option. “No one should be seduced by trusted tones offering sound bite promises of easy solutions with no consequences,” Mr Kenny said.

http://www.thejournal.ie/enda-kenny-announces-radical-changes-to-welfare-185546-Jul2011/

We can assume the dole will be hit fairly hard, especially for those living at home.
I think the back to education allowance will also be brought down.

Would people prefer to see tax hikes or this?

Esoteric_ · 25-07-2011 8:56am

I'm on the fence with this one.

I work and pay taxes, my boyfriend is unemployed and on 100 per week as he's only 20 (the little babba!). He doesn't live at home and his mother ends up having to help him every month with rent. He's very badly off.

Because of the amount of people in my boyfriend's situation, I'd say raise taxes.

However, I have 2 friends on disability benefit, both living at home. One has ADD and one is very short. The one who is very short is good with her money, has a lot of savings in the bank for her wedding, pays her mother rent each week and budgets well.

The other guy, however, is a different story. He drinks his money away each week. He eats out every day, drinks, goes to the cinema, etc. I'm working and I can't afford that!

So that is why I am on the fence. I don't think dropping the social welfare any lower will help anyone. I think it will make things a lot worse and leave even more people below the poverty line. I would personally be happy to pay more taxes to prevent this from happening. However, the Government are doing feck all to catch scammers. There are LOADS of people scamming the system and nothing is being done about it. Catch all the scammers, refuse to allow them on the welfare again for life, and millions will be saved, preventing the need to cut welfare OR raise taxes again.

starbelgrade · 25-07-2011 9:01am

mackg wrote: »

We can assume the dole will be hit fairly hard, especially for those living at home.
I think the back to education allowance will also be brought down.

Would people prefer to see tax hikes or this?

The social welfare system in Ireland needs a serious overhaul - as does the FAS training system.

Any welfare system that makes it more beneficial for people to stay on the dole rather than work, simply isn't working to the benefit of the country or it's citizens. Long term dependency on state welfare is no good for anyone - especially to those who are able to work.

How the government tackle this issue will be all important, but the half arsed measures which succesive governments have introduced in welfare & training have done little but exacerbate the problem.

So far, Kenny has been all talk & little action. What happens next remains to be seen.

Sykk · 25-07-2011 9:03am

This is great IMO..

My 3 brothers are on the dole the last 2+ years as they're all tradesmen.

I work at least 40 hours a week in IT. Besides the fact my employer is taking me for a donkey (Recession bla bla) and paying me pretty much shít because they can.

At the end of the day, when I take into consideration rent (no rent allowance), commuting, lunch, tax, bills and everything else.. They pretty much come out with the same as I do, despite sitting on their hole all day.

There is work out there, but why should people who aren't motivated go do it when they'd come out earning less, or the same? More dole cuts should have happened a long time ago.

wild_cat · 25-07-2011 9:03am

Unless they give ID cards or finger print welfare recipients I've no idea how they are going to track down some of the fraud. I really don't think finger printing is a good idea.. that's a civil liberties issue though.

I also hope they make it law that the Father's name has to be on the birth cert before you can claim the one parent family allowance. This is also fair on the child who has a right to know who their Father is. How much is DNA testing?

It seems it costs 220 euro to be done. Surely the state could drive the price down. If the Mother is wrong she pays for the test... if the Man is actually the child's Father but denies it he pays for the test. etc.

The state should not have to meet the cost for your lack of interest in your own breeding habits.

(I'm from a small village... two girls I know that are good friends with each other don't know that they share the same Father... its weird)

stargazer 68 · 25-07-2011 9:05am

Sykk wrote: »

This is great IMO..

At the end of the day, when I take into consideration rent (no rent allowance), commuting, lunch, tax, bills and everything else.. They pretty much come out with the same as I do, despite sitting on their hole all day.

There is work out there, but why should people who aren't motivated go do it when they'd come out earning less, or the same.

Yeah have to agree. Heard a guy on the bus giving out as he had to go to work to keep his mother happy - would rather be on the dole!

I know a few people who have been cut to 3 day weeks now but have worked out that if they go back to a full 5 day week they will only be 12 euro a week better off so they arent going to bother! Definitely something wrong there.

DaveDaRave · 25-07-2011 9:08am

noooooooooooo

my precious dole.

myflipflops · 25-07-2011 9:15am

wild_cat wrote: »

Unless they give ID cards or finger print welfare recipients I've no idea how they are going to track down some of the fraud. I really don't think finger printing is a good idea.. that's a civil liberties issue though.
)

My work place uses a finger print scan to allow access to the building (and as a clock in/clock out devise for agents). It's a pretty easy, cost effective, fool proof system for both security and tracking absence/lateness. I don't see how a similar system cannot be used to track in person welfare payments.

Admittedly, I know f*ck all about the welfare system though.

drunkmonkey · 25-07-2011 9:15am

LyndaMcL wrote: »

unemployed and on 100 per week as he's only 20 (the little babba!). He doesn't live at home and his mother ends up having to help him every month with rent. He's very badly off.

What's your boyfriend doing to change that, ,he's only 20 in the prime of his life, he should be doing something, I hope he's in college or going in september, waste of a life to be idle at his age. If he can't find work he should look at moving somewhere he can. A 20yr old male has no excuse to be on the dole.

wild_cat · 25-07-2011 9:26am

myflipflops wrote: »

My work place uses a finger print scan to allow access to the building (and as a clock in/clock out devise for agents). It's a pretty easy, cost effective, fool proof system for both security and tracking absence/lateness. I don't see how a similar system cannot be used to track in person welfare payments.

Admittedly, I know f*ck all about the welfare system though.

I think its more an issue of what could happen if they fell into unscrupulous hands or governments of the future. I'd support it if you knew full well that your details would be cleared as soon as you left the SW system.

I presume you were given or signed a privacy policy about them taking yours though? But I don't think I'd actually kick up a fuss if a company wanted me to do this. Its a job after all... no matter how Orwellian it seems.

mathie · 25-07-2011 9:27am

Dole threads on AH are like buses.... large rectangular shaped vehicles that transport passengers.

wild_cat · 25-07-2011 9:29am

mathie wrote: »

Dole threads on AH are like buses.... large rectangular shaped vehicles that transport passengers.

BEEP! BEEP!

RichieC · 25-07-2011 9:32am

you can't just keep raising taxes, it has to be a balance.

wild_cat · 25-07-2011 9:35am

RichieC wrote: »

you can't just keep raising taxes, it has to be a balance.

True. You're removing the incentive to work if taxes are too high. Especially in Ireland where we get little return for our taxes. Like in europe countries where taxes are high you've free health care, free creche places etc.

MidlandsM · 25-07-2011 9:35am

Got to agree with previous comments, FINGER PRINT anyone on benefit......

Mr Benevolent · 25-07-2011 9:39am

drunkmonkey wrote: »

A 20yr old male has no excuse to be on the dole.

He's in the group most at risk of being on the dole. Of course he has an excuse. Poor skills and lack of experience makes for a poor CV.

In my experience the welfare does need to be severely adjusted in certain cases, ie if male, under 30, living at home and 6+ months unemployed etc.

Needler · 25-07-2011 9:41am

myflipflops wrote: »

My work place uses a finger print scan to allow access to the building (and as a clock in/clock out devise for agents). It's a pretty easy, cost effective, fool proof system for both security and tracking absence/lateness. I don't see how a similar system cannot be used to track in person welfare payments.

Admittedly, I know f*ck all about the welfare system though.

Just because you think its foolproof doesn't mean it actually is.

Kev_ps3 · 25-07-2011 9:46am

MidlandsM wrote: »

Got to agree with previous comments, FINGER PRINT anyone on benefit......

yea, and throw them in jail while your at it..
:rolleyes:
god dam hate enda kenny and boards nerds

MidlandsM · 25-07-2011 9:49am

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

god dam hate enda kenny and boards nerds

ohhh, is that the best you can offer? Slow day brain wise?:rolleyes:

mackg · 25-07-2011 9:49am

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

yea, and throw them in jail while your at it..
:rolleyes:
god dam hate enda kenny and boards nerds

Any ideas how to stop the fraud yourself? Or just let them at and stop player hatin'?

MagicSean · 25-07-2011 9:52am

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

yea, and throw them in jail while your at it..
:rolleyes:
god dam hate enda kenny and boards nerds

Yes because fingerprinting for identification purpose is just as bad as going to jail.:rolleyes:

drunkmonkey · 25-07-2011 9:55am

Confab wrote: »

He's in the group most at risk of being on the dole. Of course he has an excuse. Poor skills and lack of experience makes for a poor CV.

I don't buy that for one minute, at 20 he should be one year off a degree or at least have a diploma course done or 2/3yrs work experience and have some part time work at least.
If he can't get a job at 20 or even start turning things around so he has a good job at 24 his dole should be done away with. No excuse for someone his age, if he's not prepared to educate himself well then he should be getting the boat not hanging on for a rise in the dole which I suspect is going to happen next.

The same applies to a tradesman on the dole for the last 2 years, hanging around waiting for things to change won't help, all these folks need to be retraining or emigrating.
The day of the dole as a career has to be finished. You get a help out for a few years until you retrain or find something else, but after 4 years you should be getting no more than 70 euro a week and rent assistance. I know that seem a bit harsh but it's necessary to create an incentive.

wild_cat · 25-07-2011 10:01am

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I don't buy that for one minute, at 20 he should be one year off a degree or at least have a diploma course done or 2/3yrs work experience and have some part time work at least.
If he can't get a job at 20 or even start turning things around so he has a good job at 24 his dole should be done away with. No excuse for someone his age, if he's not prepared to educate himself well then he should be getting the boat not hanging on for a rise in the dole which I suspect is going to happen next.

This is all well and good to say but trust me not everyone is suited to learning Java or C++ ..... Which is what we need......

sunflower27 · 25-07-2011 10:03am

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I don't buy that for one minute, at 20 he should be one year off a degree or at least have a diploma course done or 2/3yrs work experience and have some part time work at least.
If he can't get a job at 20 or even start turning things around so he has a good job at 24 his dole should be done away with. No excuse for someone his age, if he's not prepared to educate himself well then he should be getting the boat not hanging on for a rise in the dole which I suspect is going to happen next.

The same applies to a tradesman on the dole for the last 2 years, hanging around waiting for things to change won't help, all these folks need to be retraining or emigrating.
The day of the dole as a career has to be finished. You get a help out for a few years until you retrain or find something else, but after 4 years you should be getting no more than 70 euro a week and rent assistance. I know that seem a bit harsh but it's necessary to create an incentive.

70e a week or 280e per month. How is someone that finds themselves out of work through no fault of their own meant to house, feed and clothe themselves on that?? Most people would pay more that 280e/month in rent in a shared house. Not to mention those that had mortgages to pay and are now in a position of losing their homes.

CreepingDeath · 25-07-2011 10:03am

MidlandsM wrote: »

Got to agree with previous comments, FINGER PRINT anyone on benefit......

That's not enough.
It doesn't stop people having duplicate PPS numbers, one to work and another to collect dole.

You have to fingerprint everyone with a PPS number, including workers.
Although I'm still 100% in favour of that to stop the fraud.

amacca · 25-07-2011 10:04am

drunkmonkey wrote: »

not hanging on for a rise in the dole which I suspect is going to happen next.

eh, you suspect a rise is going to happen? on what grounds.....they use a small rise to offset doing away with medical cards, free travel, rent assistance free prams etc.................cant see the rate going up in the near future but curious why you do?

drunkmonkey wrote: »

The same applies to a tradesman on the dole for the last 2 years, hanging around waiting for things to change won't help, all these folks need to be retraining or emigrating.
The day of the dole as a career has to be finished. You get a help out for a few years until you retrain or find something else, but after 4 years you should be getting no more than 70 euro a week and rent assistance. I know that seem a bit harsh but it's necessary to create an incentive.

Agreed...if your able bodied etc it shouldn't be a way of life (should be paid at the highest rate to those that have contributed to the system as well)

also think the payment should be linked to antisocial behavior / committing crime etc.........if you don't want to be a decent citizen then the state wont support you etc...would solve a lot of the bull**** antisocial crap happening at the moment imo

drunkmonkey · 25-07-2011 10:07am

wild_cat wrote: »

This is all well and good to say but trust me not everyone is suited to learning Java or C++ ..... Which is what we need......

So what do we do with them, they have to retrain they don't have a choice, well they do at the moment but that needs to be knocked on the head.

amacca · 25-07-2011 10:07am

sunflower27 wrote: »

Not to mention those that had mortgages to pay and are now in a position of losing their homes.

I think you have the wrong idea about what social welfare is for

(hint: its supposed to be a subsistence payment......not really for paying a mortgage with)

wild_cat · 25-07-2011 10:09am

drunkmonkey wrote: »

So what do we do with them,

I don't know......

I don't think the government knows either.

mackg · 25-07-2011 10:13am

amacca wrote: »

eh, you suspect a rise is going to happen? on what grounds.....they use a small rise to offset doing away with medical cards, free travel, rent assistance free prams etc.................cant see the rate going up in the near future but curious why you do?

Agreed...if your able bodied etc it shouldn't be a way of life (should be paid at the highest rate to those that have contributed to the system as well)

also think the payment should be linked to antisocial behavior / committing crime etc.........if you don't want to be a decent citizen then the state wont support you etc...would solve a lot of the bull**** antisocial crap happening at the moment imo

Isn't the punishment for committing crime prision?

monkeypants · 25-07-2011 10:13am

amacca wrote: »

(hint: its supposed to be a subsistence payment......not really for paying a mortgage with)

Is keeping a roof over your head not part of that?

sunflower27 · 25-07-2011 10:17am

amacca wrote: »

I think you have the wrong idea about what social welfare is for

(hint: its supposed to be a subsistence payment......not really for paying a mortgage with)

Well, without a home address can people actually avail of welfare?

I would have presumed paying accommodation is a fairly significant thing for most people.

Lord TSC · 25-07-2011 10:18am

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I don't buy that for one minute, at 20 he should be one year off a degree or at least have a diploma course done or 2/3yrs work experience and have some part time work at least.
If he can't get a job at 20 or even start turning things around so he has a good job at 24 his dole should be done away with. No excuse for someone his age, if he's not prepared to educate himself well then he should be getting the boat not hanging on for a rise in the dole which I suspect is going to happen next.

What a load of tripe.

At 24, I've got 4 qualifications behind me, including a Masters Degree and a PGDE, making me a fully qualified English teacher. I've spent the last five years educating myself. But you're making that sound like I should be able to walk into a job based on that, which is pure nonsense. This is half of whats wrong with this country. People are stuck in the past.

You seem to be under the illusion that there's loads of good jobs out there for 24 year olds and that the only reason someone doesn't have one is laziness (or that's how your post is coming accross). It's damn well not. I've been sending my CV out to every school I can and have still only worked two days in the last year. I'd love to have a full time job, and I'd love to be able to take myself off the dole but I can't, and it annoys the hell out of me that you seem to place that blame on me.

As for the "Get a job or get out of the country" comment, can I please politly tell you to get your head out of your ass. I have no intentions of moving. My family and friends are here. My life is here. Even if I wanted to move abroad, where exactly am I going to get the money for that? As it is, I can barely afford to live at home, let alone branch out and look for a place abroad. I HATE HATE HATE how emigration has become a standard policy in Ireland.

You're aiming your anger at 20-24 year olds who have dedicated themselves to education and now can't find jobs because they aren't out there; at the people who should be held onto in this country at all means since they are the ones who will and can help rebuild this country. It shocks me how gungho people are about kicking the educated out of this country and how some seem to think that will help it in the long run....

amacca · 25-07-2011 10:24am

mackg wrote: »

Isn't the punishment for committing crime prision?

you would think so wouldn't you? but that would be naive of you (dont worry I was that soldier too)

No, you see it costs a lot to put a person in prison now and keep them there and our prisons are overpopulated as they are (also costs a lot to build new prisons)

....so...words like concurrent and suspended + programme have crept into our ahem "justice" system meaning if you commit crime you may not have to see the inside of a prison at all

(this also has some benefits for those that make their living out of those pesky criminals - not much point going to court if theres no anto/deco or shayo to judge/defend or prosecute is there - so letting a large percentage of those petty/not so petty ones out ensures repeat offences/repeat business)

for the minor/not so minor antisocial stuff I believe a lot of it could be solved by not giving people free money if they behave like layabout thugs - and call me crazy but I think the current environment might just be the right one to start phasing in something like this + hit the dole of parents of kids that are being let run wild...think it would surely weed out a good percentage of this crap - reduce the "burden" on the courts time etc

jester77 · 25-07-2011 10:25am

monkeypants wrote: »

Is keeping a roof over your head not part of that?

Keeping a reasonably sized roof over your head should be part of it.

After 12 months unemployment here in Germany you move onto what's called Hartz IV. To even get that, you have to use up all your assets. If the house you are in is over a certain size, you have to rent somewhere smaller or if you own it then you sell it.

wild_cat · 25-07-2011 10:25am

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

What a load of tripe.

At 24, I've got 4 qualifications behind me, including a Masters Degree and a PGDE, making me a fully qualified English teacher. I've spent the last five years educating myself. But you're making that sound like I should be able to walk into a job based on that, which is pure nonsense. This is half of whats wrong with this country. People are stuck in the past.

You seem to be under the illusion that there's loads of good jobs out there for 24 year olds and that the only reason someone doesn't have one is laziness (or that's how your post is coming accross). It's damn well not. I've been sending my CV out to every school I can and have still only worked two days in the last year. I'd love to have a full time job, and I'd love to be able to take myself off the dole but I can't, and it annoys the hell out of me that you seem to place that blame on me.

As for the "Get a job or get out of the country" comment, can I please politly tell you to get your head out of your ass. I have no intentions of moving. My family and friends are here. My life is here. Even if I wanted to move abroad, where exactly am I going to get the money for that? As it is, I can barely afford to live at home, let alone branch out and look for a place abroad. I HATE HATE HATE how emigration has become a standard policy in Ireland.

You're aiming your anger at 20-24 year olds who have dedicated themselves to education and now can't find jobs because they aren't out there; at the people who should be held onto in this country at all means since they are the ones who will and can help rebuild this country. It shocks me how gungho people are about kicking the educated out of this country and how some seem to think that will help it in the long run....

Have you been applying for jobs that are not in your field of study. Like retail, low level admin etc?

MagicSean · 25-07-2011 10:25am

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

What a load of tripe.

At 24, I've got 4 qualifications behind me, including a Masters Degree and a PGDE, making me a fully qualified English teacher. I've spent the last five years educating myself. But you're making that sound like I should be able to walk into a job based on that, which is pure nonsense. This is half of whats wrong with this country. People are stuck in the past.

You seem to be under the illusion that there's loads of good jobs out there for 24 year olds and that the only reason someone doesn't have one is laziness (or that's how your post is coming accross). It's damn well not. I've been sending my CV out to every school I can and have still only worked two days in the last year. I'd love to have a full time job, and I'd love to be able to take myself off the dole but I can't, and it annoys the hell out of me that you seem to place that blame on me.

As for the "Get a job or get out of the country" comment, can I please politly tell you to get your head out of your ass. I have no intentions of moving. My family and friends are here. My life is here. Even if I wanted to move abroad, where exactly am I going to get the money for that? As it is, I can barely afford to live at home, let alone branch out and look for a place abroad. I HATE HATE HATE how emigration has become a standard policy in Ireland.

You're aiming your anger at 20-24 year olds who have dedicated themselves to education and now can't find jobs because they aren't out there; at the people who should be held onto in this country at all means since they are the ones who will and can help rebuild this country. It shocks me how gungho people are about kicking the educated out of this country and how some seem to think that will help it in the long run....

Just out of curiosity, have you applied for any other jobs outside of teaching?

amacca · 25-07-2011 10:27am

sunflower27 wrote: »

Well, without a home address can people actually avail of welfare?

I would have presumed paying accommodation is a fairly significant thing for most people.

last time I checked people could have a home address without having a mortgage?

(hint 2: consider renting...a lot of people do it....I know they say its dead money, but look where that got us)

phasers · 25-07-2011 10:30am

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I don't buy that for one minute, at 20 he should be one year off a degree or at least have a diploma course done or 2/3yrs work experience and have some part time work at least.
If he can't get a job at 20 or even start turning things around so he has a good job at 24 his dole should be done away with. No excuse for someone his age, if he's not prepared to educate himself well then he should be getting the boat not hanging on for a rise in the dole which I suspect is going to happen next.

I don't know about the person in question's situation, but I'm on the dole at 20. It was either sign on or starve tbh, I don't particularly enjoy it. I left a dead end college course I hated after one year and to go back I'd need something like 10 grand, which I don't have. I have no experience so nobody is interested in giving me a job, and even though I'm dying to go back to college I don't get an ounce of help from the dole people until I'm 21. I'm stuck. €100 a week doesn't leave much for savings (which it shouldn't, that's not what the dole is for) and I can't even get a work placement or fás course because the people aren't interested in helping me.

Honestly I wish the government would bring in some kind of graduate tax which allowed students to pay fees back after they leave college and start working, but until then I'm a dole jockey.

dvpower · 25-07-2011 10:33am

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

At 24, I've got 4 qualifications behind me, including a Masters Degree and a PGDE, making me a fully qualified English teacher.

But you're not a fully qualified English teacher; you're just fully qualified to become an English teacher in a market where there are very few openings for English teachers.

You have a number of choices.

You could go on the dole and wait 'till the market improves - this is a non runner; there is a requirement that you be actively seeking work (and not just in your own narrow specialism).
You could look for a job in an other line of business. We do have an unemployment crisis, but I'd expect that a person with your qualifications should be able to find some work. If you can't find any work after a reasonable search, then wouldn't temporary emigration be the best solution all 'round?

monkeypants · 25-07-2011 10:42am

Selling your house and renting instead is grand if you can get back the money that you paid for it. If you can't, then you end up with no roof over your head and a debt. I wouldn't consider that to be an improvement.

Just took a quick look on daft.ie and I don't see a huge drop in the rents being asked from the 2007 rates.

mackg · 25-07-2011 10:43am

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Doesn't need to be quoted in full again

A friend was telling me they are crying out for english teachers in south korea, good pay, see a bit of the world, already a large community of people about your age out there doing it so you wouldn't be completely alone. You might be a little over qualified but its better than nothing. I hear pay is around £1000 a week.

Phasers you could go abroad until you save enough money to get back into educaation.

sunflower27 · 25-07-2011 10:43am

amacca wrote: »

last time I checked people could have a home address without having a mortgage?

(hint 2: consider renting...a lot of people do it....I know they say its dead money, but look where that got us)

Renting out my place would not cover my mortgage. Nowhere near it unfortunately. If I could do that, I would and wouldn't have the worry of losing my home over my head all the time.

And it is not a huge place, by the way. Very modest apartment.

It took me ages to get a tenant in to rent out the spare room. I'm not in Dublin or a big city - people wanting to rent have a huge choice and putting a room up for rent doesn't mean it is automatically filled. It can take months and months.

dvpower · 25-07-2011 10:44am

monkeypants wrote: »

Just took a quick look on daft.ie and I don't see a huge drop in the rents being asked from the 2007 rates.

.... rent allowance being a large factor in that.

sunflower27 · 25-07-2011 10:46am

phasers wrote: »

I don't know about the person in question's situation, but I'm on the dole at 20. It was either sign on or starve tbh, I don't particularly enjoy it. I left a dead end college course I hated after one year and to go back I'd need something like 10 grand, which I don't have. I have no experience so nobody is interested in giving me a job, and even though I'm dying to go back to college I don't get an ounce of help from the dole people until I'm 21. I'm stuck. €100 a week doesn't leave much for savings (which it shouldn't, that's not what the dole is for) and I can't even get a work placement or fás course because the people aren't interested in helping me.

Honestly I wish the government would bring in some kind of graduate tax which allowed students to pay fees back after they leave college and start working, but until then I'm a dole jockey.

They have that kind of payment plan in Australia for graduates. Once you start earning over a certain amount, you start paying it back. It is only a small amount each month taken directly out of your pay. I think it's a really good system and takes the pressure off those graduates struggling.

dvpower · 25-07-2011 10:47am

sunflower27 wrote: »

Well, without a home address can people actually avail of welfare?

I would have presumed paying accommodation is a fairly significant thing for most people.

Social welfare will pay rent allowance or mortgage interest, not mortgage repayments.

amacca · 25-07-2011 10:53am

monkeypants wrote: »

Selling your house and renting instead is grand if you can get back the money that you paid for it. If you can't, then you end up with no roof over your head and a debt. I wouldn't consider that to be an improvement.

Just took a quick look on daft.ie and I don't see a huge drop in the rents being asked from the 2007 rates.

Granted, its a horrible situation...but in some senses when you take on a mortgage you are taking on the risk that you will not be able to pay it back ...and all that goes with that

it should never be the states function to bail you out if things go pear shaped with a decision like taking on a mortgage

then again....they should never have fcuked up the country so much that so many people had so many unsustainable jobs and now find themselves unable to pay their mortgage + overheated/over hyped the property market in the first place (or allowed this to happen to the extent it did)

although I'm all for personal responsibility and dealing with the consequences of ones actions/decisions maybe you have a point.....for a percentage of those unemployed and struggling to pay their mortgage

thing is...the money isnt there to support everyone struggling with a mortgage + how do you weed out the chancers and the ones who just plain made a horrible decision or over reached themselves from those genuine unfortunates that deserve a break (seems impossible to me)

(I know a girl who worked in spar and got a 300k mortgage with her partner - worked on the buildings - then took out credit union loan + used credit card to furnish house...two flatscreens etc before they moved in -> to me the consequences of that shouldnt be anyones but their own)

sunflower27 · 25-07-2011 10:53am

dvpower wrote: »

Social welfare will pay rent allowance or mortgage interest, not mortgage repayments.

Thanks for that. I am not claiming rental assistance or anything like that at the moment as I have payment protection for a few months yet.

When that runs out, that is when I am in trouble. Keeping a tenant is obviously a priority at the moment but the last guy in lost his job and moved away. Getting in a new person took months and he is only here for 6 months.

It really isn't a case of just sitting on your ass all day for a lot of people in my position. I am sure there are plenty of people happy to just get rental assistance and live off welfare, but for others (who haven't been in this position before) it is a pretty scary reality thinking about what is going to happen down the line.

amacca · 25-07-2011 10:57am

sunflower27 wrote: »

Renting out my place would not cover my mortgage. Nowhere near it unfortunately. If I could do that, I would and wouldn't have the worry of losing my home over my head all the time.

And it is not a huge place, by the way. Very modest apartment.

It took me ages to get a tenant in to rent out the spare room. I'm not in Dublin or a big city - people wanting to rent have a huge choice and putting a room up for rent doesn't mean it is automatically filled. It can take months and months.

I wasn't suggesting you rent out your place to someone else

I was suggesting that there are other ways to have a home address and thus claim social welfare than having to take out a mortgage....in response to your post that seemed to suggest you couldn't have a home address without having a mortgage

(as presumably you well know)

phasers · 25-07-2011 11:00am

mackg wrote: »

Phasers you could go abroad until you save enough money to get back into educaation.

Is that a joke? How could I afford to go abroad?

sunflower27 · 25-07-2011 11:02am

amacca wrote: »

I wasn't suggesting you rent out your place to someone else

I was suggesting that there are other ways to have a home address and thus claim social welfare than having to take out a mortgage....in response to your post that seemed to suggest you couldn't have a home address without having a mortgage

(as presumably you well know)

I wasn't suggesting anyone take out a mortgage? what? I was saying to those people that had a mortgage and lost their job and can't make their payments it is a case of losing their homes. All well and good if you can rent it out and it will cover it, but if you can't well, it isn't a great place to be.

Fortunately I still have time on my side and things may turn around. There are a lot of people in much worse situations. My home is not worth megabucks and obviously I want to keep it. Unfortunately if I don't get work I don't see how I can. Something I will have to deal with. And no, I didn't buy in the boom and over-spend. I bought in 2009 and it was, when I was working, very much within my means to pay for it.

Major changes to welfare and training ahead...

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