Major changes to welfare and training ahead...

mackg · 25-07-2011 09:31AM #1

TAOISEACH ENDA KENNY has announced a huge shake-up of Ireland’s welfare and training systems over the coming months.

He said the government is set to unveil details of what he called “the most radical shake-up in our welfare, employment and training systems and services in a generation”. The measures aim to “focus our limited resources on those with genuine need” and “make sure people are better off in work than on welfare,” he added.

Mr Kenny was speaking at the MacGill Summer School in Glenties, Co Donegal yesterday, his second major speech in a week after his searing Dáil attack on the Vatican last Wednesday. He told RTÉ that he had received thousands of messages of support from around the world following his response to the Cloyne report on clerical abuse, including “hundreds” from parish priests across Ireland.

Giving the school’s annual John Hume lecture, Mr Kenny also warned that further austerity measures are on the way for Irish taxpayers – and signalled that these could come in the form of service cuts rather than tax hikes. Warning of “difficult decisions and times ahead,” he said: “We cannot tax our way back to economic recovery.
Some of the services and entitlements the State is now providing we can no longer afford, either at their current levels or at all. Other services we can continue to provide only if we make them cheaper to deliver through radical reforms in the way the public service works to cut out waste and duplication.

Mr Kenny hailed the reduction of Ireland’s bailout interest rate at the Eurozone summit last Thursday, saying EU leaders had “put aside national politics and lead instead in the interest of all Europeans.”
He added that people should not believe economists who have said defaulting on our debts could be Ireland’s best option. “No one should be seduced by trusted tones offering sound bite promises of easy solutions with no consequences,” Mr Kenny said.

http://www.thejournal.ie/enda-kenny-announces-radical-changes-to-welfare-185546-Jul2011/

We can assume the dole will be hit fairly hard, especially for those living at home.
I think the back to education allowance will also be brought down.

Would people prefer to see tax hikes or this?

Esoteric_ · 25-07-2011 09:56AM

I'm on the fence with this one.

I work and pay taxes, my boyfriend is unemployed and on 100 per week as he's only 20 (the little babba!). He doesn't live at home and his mother ends up having to help him every month with rent. He's very badly off.

Because of the amount of people in my boyfriend's situation, I'd say raise taxes.

However, I have 2 friends on disability benefit, both living at home. One has ADD and one is very short. The one who is very short is good with her money, has a lot of savings in the bank for her wedding, pays her mother rent each week and budgets well.

The other guy, however, is a different story. He drinks his money away each week. He eats out every day, drinks, goes to the cinema, etc. I'm working and I can't afford that!

So that is why I am on the fence. I don't think dropping the social welfare any lower will help anyone. I think it will make things a lot worse and leave even more people below the poverty line. I would personally be happy to pay more taxes to prevent this from happening. However, the Government are doing feck all to catch scammers. There are LOADS of people scamming the system and nothing is being done about it. Catch all the scammers, refuse to allow them on the welfare again for life, and millions will be saved, preventing the need to cut welfare OR raise taxes again.

starbelgrade · 25-07-2011 10:01AM

mackg wrote: »

We can assume the dole will be hit fairly hard, especially for those living at home.
I think the back to education allowance will also be brought down.

Would people prefer to see tax hikes or this?

The social welfare system in Ireland needs a serious overhaul - as does the FAS training system.

Any welfare system that makes it more beneficial for people to stay on the dole rather than work, simply isn't working to the benefit of the country or it's citizens. Long term dependency on state welfare is no good for anyone - especially to those who are able to work.

How the government tackle this issue will be all important, but the half arsed measures which succesive governments have introduced in welfare & training have done little but exacerbate the problem.

So far, Kenny has been all talk & little action. What happens next remains to be seen.

Sykk · 25-07-2011 10:03AM

This is great IMO..

My 3 brothers are on the dole the last 2+ years as they're all tradesmen.

I work at least 40 hours a week in IT. Besides the fact my employer is taking me for a donkey (Recession bla bla) and paying me pretty much shít because they can.

At the end of the day, when I take into consideration rent (no rent allowance), commuting, lunch, tax, bills and everything else.. They pretty much come out with the same as I do, despite sitting on their hole all day.

There is work out there, but why should people who aren't motivated go do it when they'd come out earning less, or the same? More dole cuts should have happened a long time ago.

wild_cat · 25-07-2011 10:03AM

Unless they give ID cards or finger print welfare recipients I've no idea how they are going to track down some of the fraud. I really don't think finger printing is a good idea.. that's a civil liberties issue though.

I also hope they make it law that the Father's name has to be on the birth cert before you can claim the one parent family allowance. This is also fair on the child who has a right to know who their Father is. How much is DNA testing?

It seems it costs 220 euro to be done. Surely the state could drive the price down. If the Mother is wrong she pays for the test... if the Man is actually the child's Father but denies it he pays for the test. etc.

The state should not have to meet the cost for your lack of interest in your own breeding habits.

(I'm from a small village... two girls I know that are good friends with each other don't know that they share the same Father... its weird)

stargazer 68 · 25-07-2011 10:05AM

Sykk wrote: »

This is great IMO..

At the end of the day, when I take into consideration rent (no rent allowance), commuting, lunch, tax, bills and everything else.. They pretty much come out with the same as I do, despite sitting on their hole all day.

There is work out there, but why should people who aren't motivated go do it when they'd come out earning less, or the same.

Yeah have to agree. Heard a guy on the bus giving out as he had to go to work to keep his mother happy - would rather be on the dole!

I know a few people who have been cut to 3 day weeks now but have worked out that if they go back to a full 5 day week they will only be 12 euro a week better off so they arent going to bother! Definitely something wrong there.

DaveDaRave · 25-07-2011 10:08AM

noooooooooooo

my precious dole.

myflipflops · 25-07-2011 10:15AM

wild_cat wrote: »

Unless they give ID cards or finger print welfare recipients I've no idea how they are going to track down some of the fraud. I really don't think finger printing is a good idea.. that's a civil liberties issue though.
)

My work place uses a finger print scan to allow access to the building (and as a clock in/clock out devise for agents). It's a pretty easy, cost effective, fool proof system for both security and tracking absence/lateness. I don't see how a similar system cannot be used to track in person welfare payments.

Admittedly, I know f*ck all about the welfare system though.

drunkmonkey · 25-07-2011 10:15AM

LyndaMcL wrote: »

unemployed and on 100 per week as he's only 20 (the little babba!). He doesn't live at home and his mother ends up having to help him every month with rent. He's very badly off.

What's your boyfriend doing to change that, ,he's only 20 in the prime of his life, he should be doing something, I hope he's in college or going in september, waste of a life to be idle at his age. If he can't find work he should look at moving somewhere he can. A 20yr old male has no excuse to be on the dole.

wild_cat · 25-07-2011 10:26AM

myflipflops wrote: »

My work place uses a finger print scan to allow access to the building (and as a clock in/clock out devise for agents). It's a pretty easy, cost effective, fool proof system for both security and tracking absence/lateness. I don't see how a similar system cannot be used to track in person welfare payments.

Admittedly, I know f*ck all about the welfare system though.

I think its more an issue of what could happen if they fell into unscrupulous hands or governments of the future. I'd support it if you knew full well that your details would be cleared as soon as you left the SW system.

I presume you were given or signed a privacy policy about them taking yours though? But I don't think I'd actually kick up a fuss if a company wanted me to do this. Its a job after all... no matter how Orwellian it seems.

mathie · 25-07-2011 10:27AM

Dole threads on AH are like buses.... large rectangular shaped vehicles that transport passengers.

wild_cat · 25-07-2011 10:29AM

mathie wrote: »

Dole threads on AH are like buses.... large rectangular shaped vehicles that transport passengers.

BEEP! BEEP!

RichieC · 25-07-2011 10:32AM

you can't just keep raising taxes, it has to be a balance.

wild_cat · 25-07-2011 10:35AM

RichieC wrote: »

you can't just keep raising taxes, it has to be a balance.

True. You're removing the incentive to work if taxes are too high. Especially in Ireland where we get little return for our taxes. Like in europe countries where taxes are high you've free health care, free creche places etc.

MidlandsM · 25-07-2011 10:35AM

Got to agree with previous comments, FINGER PRINT anyone on benefit......

Mr Benevolent · 25-07-2011 10:39AM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

A 20yr old male has no excuse to be on the dole.

He's in the group most at risk of being on the dole. Of course he has an excuse. Poor skills and lack of experience makes for a poor CV.

In my experience the welfare does need to be severely adjusted in certain cases, ie if male, under 30, living at home and 6+ months unemployed etc.

Needler · 25-07-2011 10:41AM

myflipflops wrote: »

My work place uses a finger print scan to allow access to the building (and as a clock in/clock out devise for agents). It's a pretty easy, cost effective, fool proof system for both security and tracking absence/lateness. I don't see how a similar system cannot be used to track in person welfare payments.

Admittedly, I know f*ck all about the welfare system though.

Just because you think its foolproof doesn't mean it actually is.

Kev_ps3 · 25-07-2011 10:46AM

MidlandsM wrote: »

Got to agree with previous comments, FINGER PRINT anyone on benefit......

yea, and throw them in jail while your at it..
:rolleyes:
god dam hate enda kenny and boards nerds

MidlandsM · 25-07-2011 10:49AM

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

god dam hate enda kenny and boards nerds

ohhh, is that the best you can offer? Slow day brain wise?:rolleyes:

mackg · 25-07-2011 10:49AM

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

yea, and throw them in jail while your at it..
:rolleyes:
god dam hate enda kenny and boards nerds

Any ideas how to stop the fraud yourself? Or just let them at and stop player hatin'?

MagicSean · 25-07-2011 10:52AM

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

yea, and throw them in jail while your at it..
:rolleyes:
god dam hate enda kenny and boards nerds

Yes because fingerprinting for identification purpose is just as bad as going to jail.:rolleyes:

drunkmonkey · 25-07-2011 10:55AM

Confab wrote: »

He's in the group most at risk of being on the dole. Of course he has an excuse. Poor skills and lack of experience makes for a poor CV.

I don't buy that for one minute, at 20 he should be one year off a degree or at least have a diploma course done or 2/3yrs work experience and have some part time work at least.
If he can't get a job at 20 or even start turning things around so he has a good job at 24 his dole should be done away with. No excuse for someone his age, if he's not prepared to educate himself well then he should be getting the boat not hanging on for a rise in the dole which I suspect is going to happen next.

The same applies to a tradesman on the dole for the last 2 years, hanging around waiting for things to change won't help, all these folks need to be retraining or emigrating.
The day of the dole as a career has to be finished. You get a help out for a few years until you retrain or find something else, but after 4 years you should be getting no more than 70 euro a week and rent assistance. I know that seem a bit harsh but it's necessary to create an incentive.

wild_cat · 25-07-2011 11:01AM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I don't buy that for one minute, at 20 he should be one year off a degree or at least have a diploma course done or 2/3yrs work experience and have some part time work at least.
If he can't get a job at 20 or even start turning things around so he has a good job at 24 his dole should be done away with. No excuse for someone his age, if he's not prepared to educate himself well then he should be getting the boat not hanging on for a rise in the dole which I suspect is going to happen next.

This is all well and good to say but trust me not everyone is suited to learning Java or C++ ..... Which is what we need......

sunflower27 · 25-07-2011 11:03AM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I don't buy that for one minute, at 20 he should be one year off a degree or at least have a diploma course done or 2/3yrs work experience and have some part time work at least.
If he can't get a job at 20 or even start turning things around so he has a good job at 24 his dole should be done away with. No excuse for someone his age, if he's not prepared to educate himself well then he should be getting the boat not hanging on for a rise in the dole which I suspect is going to happen next.

The same applies to a tradesman on the dole for the last 2 years, hanging around waiting for things to change won't help, all these folks need to be retraining or emigrating.
The day of the dole as a career has to be finished. You get a help out for a few years until you retrain or find something else, but after 4 years you should be getting no more than 70 euro a week and rent assistance. I know that seem a bit harsh but it's necessary to create an incentive.

70e a week or 280e per month. How is someone that finds themselves out of work through no fault of their own meant to house, feed and clothe themselves on that?? Most people would pay more that 280e/month in rent in a shared house. Not to mention those that had mortgages to pay and are now in a position of losing their homes.

CreepingDeath · 25-07-2011 11:03AM

MidlandsM wrote: »

Got to agree with previous comments, FINGER PRINT anyone on benefit......

That's not enough.
It doesn't stop people having duplicate PPS numbers, one to work and another to collect dole.

You have to fingerprint everyone with a PPS number, including workers.
Although I'm still 100% in favour of that to stop the fraud.

amacca · 25-07-2011 11:04AM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

not hanging on for a rise in the dole which I suspect is going to happen next.

eh, you suspect a rise is going to happen? on what grounds.....they use a small rise to offset doing away with medical cards, free travel, rent assistance free prams etc.................cant see the rate going up in the near future but curious why you do?

drunkmonkey wrote: »

The same applies to a tradesman on the dole for the last 2 years, hanging around waiting for things to change won't help, all these folks need to be retraining or emigrating.
The day of the dole as a career has to be finished. You get a help out for a few years until you retrain or find something else, but after 4 years you should be getting no more than 70 euro a week and rent assistance. I know that seem a bit harsh but it's necessary to create an incentive.

Agreed...if your able bodied etc it shouldn't be a way of life (should be paid at the highest rate to those that have contributed to the system as well)

also think the payment should be linked to antisocial behavior / committing crime etc.........if you don't want to be a decent citizen then the state wont support you etc...would solve a lot of the bull**** antisocial crap happening at the moment imo

drunkmonkey · 25-07-2011 11:07AM

wild_cat wrote: »

This is all well and good to say but trust me not everyone is suited to learning Java or C++ ..... Which is what we need......

So what do we do with them, they have to retrain they don't have a choice, well they do at the moment but that needs to be knocked on the head.

amacca · 25-07-2011 11:07AM

sunflower27 wrote: »

Not to mention those that had mortgages to pay and are now in a position of losing their homes.

I think you have the wrong idea about what social welfare is for

(hint: its supposed to be a subsistence payment......not really for paying a mortgage with)

wild_cat · 25-07-2011 11:09AM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

So what do we do with them,

I don't know......

I don't think the government knows either.

mackg · 25-07-2011 11:13AM

amacca wrote: »

eh, you suspect a rise is going to happen? on what grounds.....they use a small rise to offset doing away with medical cards, free travel, rent assistance free prams etc.................cant see the rate going up in the near future but curious why you do?

Agreed...if your able bodied etc it shouldn't be a way of life (should be paid at the highest rate to those that have contributed to the system as well)

also think the payment should be linked to antisocial behavior / committing crime etc.........if you don't want to be a decent citizen then the state wont support you etc...would solve a lot of the bull**** antisocial crap happening at the moment imo

Isn't the punishment for committing crime prision?

monkeypants · 25-07-2011 11:13AM

amacca wrote: »

(hint: its supposed to be a subsistence payment......not really for paying a mortgage with)

Is keeping a roof over your head not part of that?

Major changes to welfare and training ahead...

Comments