First Church of Atheism

antiskeptic

koth wrote: »

yeah, I'd be with the lack of belief in deities as my definition of atheism.

But not that only.. was the point.

I won't consider it a group of like minds. Generally the posters here have one thing in common, lack of belief in deities.

What about..

Well I'd definitely think it better explains things over a story that all powerful creator is answer to all things.

or..

I would think that a society that attempts to treat people equally would be a basis for a society.

.. would those be common beliefs here too?

Do you believe that religious people are deluded and weak?

nope.

I see a schism coming up. This is how denominations are born..

It just doesn't make sense to me. there are no atheist rituals, rites of passage, prayers etc. It just seems like a very confused idea to set up a church of atheism.

You have holy scriptures, you have creeds, you have high priests, you evangelize, you 'burn heretics at the stake' (thinking of Prof Flew here), your god is the only god - all other gods are false, miracles are performed which require large doses of faith to support belief in them (abiogenesis / the Big Bang produced a brain capable of deciding that the BIg Bang produced a brain capable of deciding that...), folks of other faith think you are deluded.

I could go on..

Delirium

antiskeptic wrote: »

The congregation of like minds on this forum deal with existential issues as opposed to stamp collecting. A belief system that concerns itself with addressing existential issue tends to fall under the category Religion - something boards.ie recognised in their positioning this forum under Religion & Spirituality.

A belief system requires more than one belief, atheism doesn't meet that criteria.

The forum was put in the Religion and Spirituality section as it makes sense to have a forum that will have the vast majority of the posts discussing religions in that section.

It wasn't because atheism was deemed to be a religion, like you seem to be suggesting.

antiskeptic

koth wrote: »

A belief system requires more than one belief, atheism doesn't meet that criteria.

Atheist have lots of shared beliefs

The forum was put in the Religion and Spirituality section as it makes sense to have a forum that will have the vast majority of the posts discussing religions in that section.

If atheists merely lack a belief in God then why would they be posting about Religion at all??

In practice they do as all the other religions do: espouse their own existential views and argue the toss with all the other existential views.

Delirium

antiskeptic wrote: »

But not that only.. was the point.


What about..

or..

.. would those be common beliefs here too?

I see a schism coming up. This is how denominations are born..

You have holy scriptures, you have creeds, you have high priests, you evangelize, you 'burn heretics at the stake' (thinking of Prof Flew here), your god is the only god - all other gods are false, miracles are performed which require large doses of faith to support belief in them (abiogenesis / the Big Bang produced a brain capable of deciding that the BIg Bang produced a brain capable of deciding that...), folks of other faith thing you are deluded.

I could go on..

wow. you really are going to try and bang that square peg into the round hole.

antiskeptic wrote: »

Atheist have lots of shared beliefs



If atheists merely lack a belief in God then why would they be posting about Religion at all??

In practice they do as all the other religions do: espouse their own existential views and argue the toss with all the other existential views.

because a lot religions spill over into public policies, like education and marriage to name two examples. Those are problems created by religion that have an impact on people who are not members of the religion.

That's part of why this forum exists.

Ghost Buster

Perhaps Americans are just prone to lonelyness or have a stronger pack instinct than most.
First they take Wicca and Witch Craft which has always traditionally been a solitary spiritual thing and form several daft as rabbits churches around them and now they are at it with Atheism.
Farking stoopid :mad:

MagicMarker

antiskeptic wrote: »

Atheist have lots of shared beliefs

People in shared beliefs shocker.

Dades

antiskeptic wrote: »

koth wrote: »

A belief system requires more than one belief, atheism doesn't meet that criteria.

Atheist have lots of shared beliefs.

Name two.

antiskeptic

koth wrote: »

wow. you really are going to try and bang that square peg into the round hole.

I was considering that which lies at the root of things - in which case the peg isn't so square.

because a lot religions spill over into public policies, like education and marriage to name two examples. Those are problems created by religion that have an impact on people who are not members of the religion.

Problems can be said to occur in reverse. The influence of a godless society on me and my family when I'm not a member of that godlessness.

That's part of why this forum exists.

To promote the tenets of your belief system (which manifest in areas such as education / marriage / abortion / euthanasia / etc )'as an alternative to the system that exists (partially religious currently).

To suppose that there is no belief system at the root of your (collective) position is to suppose yourself arguing from a vacuum. Everybody believes something.

antiskeptic

Dades wrote: »

Name two.

On this forum (a context set earlier)

anti-theism / naturalisim / empiricism /

Penn

antiskeptic wrote: »

I was considering that which lies at the root of things - in which case the peg isn't so square.

Problems can be said to occur in reverse. The influence of a godless society on me and my family when I'm not a member of that godlessness.

To promote the tenets of your belief system (which manifest in areas such as education / marriage / abortion / euthanasia / etc )'as an alternative to the system that exists (partially religious currently).

To suppose that there is no belief system at the root of your (collective) position is to suppose yourself arguing from a vacuum. Everybody believes something.

There's a difference between believing something and holding a religious belief in it. I wouldn't take atheism to be a belief, moreso a general theme throughout certain ideas.

Turtwig

antiskeptic wrote: »

Atheist have lots of shared beliefs

Do you collect Ancient Tombstones? Neither do I. Do you believe that killing is mostly wrong? So do I. Look! People who don't collect ancient tombstones the world over have many shared beliefs. Therefore, not collecting ancient tombstones must be a religion. Let's call it "a-tombing" because there's so many "a-tombists".

Delirium

antiskeptic wrote: »

I was considering that which lies at the root of things - in which case the peg isn't so square.

Problems can be said to occur in reverse. The influence of a godless society on me and my family when I'm not a member of that godlessness.

I didn't realise that christians weren't allow marry or were being refused places in their local school due to their religion

To promote the tenets of your belief system (which manifest in areas such as education / marriage / abortion / euthanasia / etc )'as an alternative to the system that exists (partially religious currently).

I don't have a belief system, unless you think consider the desire for people to be treated equally a belief system.

To suppose that there is no belief system at the root of your (collective) position is to suppose yourself arguing from a vacuum. Everybody believes something.

That doesn't mean atheism is a religion though.

liamw

pH wrote: »

That's your argument? Seriously?

It undermines arguments you have with strangers on the net? So he shouldn't do it?

The impression of atheism from these 'strangers on the net' (in my experience) is shared amongst a significant percentage of the general population.

The hesitiation for some to declare themselves as atheist is evidently derived from misinformation and a perception of atheism as a dogma/religion/belief system in and of itself. The website doesn't help in removing this perception - it perpetuates it.

antiskeptic

Barrington wrote: »

There's a difference between believing something and holding a religious belief in it.

Go on

I wouldn't take atheism to be a belief, moreso a general theme throughout certain ideas.

Atheism isn't a belief, it's a lack of belief - we all know that

However, atheists, whilst lacking a belief in god don't believe nothing - they believe something. And because the somethings they believe in are shared by many other atheists and because there are many similarities with reliigions in the way those beliefs are espoused, a case can be made for forming an atheist 'church'

At least, some atheists seem to think so.

antiskeptic

koth wrote: »

I didn't realise that christians weren't allow marry or were being refused places in their local school due to their religion

No, But they are refused the right to walk around their city without being faced with soft porn on every second billboard.

I don't have a belief system, unless you think consider the desire for people to be treated equally a belief system.

What is fair tends to be a function of the belief system you hold.

That doesn't mean atheism is a religion though.

When it shares core characteristics of religions then it arguably is. Looks like a duck, walks like a duck .. ??

antiskeptic

Malty_T wrote: »

Do you collect Ancient Tombstones? Neither do I. Do you believe that killing is mostly wrong? So do I. Look! People who don't collect ancient tombstones the world over have many shared beliefs. Therefore, not collecting ancient tombstones must be a religion. Let's call it "a-tombing" because there's so many "a-tombists".

It was more the congregational nature of things I was thinking of.

You have holy scriptures, you have creeds, you have high priests, you evangelize, you 'burn heretics at the stake' (thinking of Prof Flew here), your god is the only god - all other gods are false, miracles are performed which require large doses of faith to support belief in them (abiogenesis / the Big Bang produced a brain capable of deciding that the BIg Bang produced a brain capable of deciding that...), folks of other faith think you are deluded.

That and the fact of the core belief of the congregation concerning itself with the existential

Penn

antiskeptic wrote: »

Go on

Okay. I believe Nutella on toast is great. But I don't bless myself every time I walk past a jar of Nutella in the shop. I believe that Metal Gear Solid 3 is the best game ever, but I don't pray to Hideo Kojima (the creator of the game) every night.

antiskeptic wrote: »

Atheism isn't a belief, it's a lack of belief - we all know that

However, atheists, whilst lacking a belief in god don't believe nothing - they believe something. And because the somethings they believe in are shared by many other atheists and because there are many similarities with reliigions in the way those beliefs are espoused, a case can be made for forming an atheist 'church'

At least, some atheists seem to think so.

But again, you're saying that a lack of belief is a belief in itself, which in a really roundabout way is correct, but a pointless argument. I don't say to people "Hi, I'm Barrington. I'm 25, from Ireland, and I'm not a Formula1 driver". Technically, I'm not a Formula1 driver. But that doesn't suddenly lump me in with everyone else who is not a Formula1 driver. We aren't going to have meetings or conferences where we discuss not driving Formula1 cars.

eoin5

Theres too much maneuvering around the irony of a proposed church of not believing in something. Its silly.

Delirium

antiskeptic wrote: »

No, But they are refused the right to walk around their city without being faced with soft porn on every second billboard.

are you claiming only atheists work in advertising?

What is fair tends to be a function of the belief system you hold.

That doesn't mean it has anything to do with me being an atheist though.

When it shares core characteristics of religions then it arguably is. Looks like a duck, walks like a duck .. ??

that does nothing to support your claim though. You list out things in the attempt to create a religion under the banner of atheism, but all it does is show how much you misunderstand what atheism actually is.

antiskeptic

Barrington wrote: »

Okay. I believe Nutella on toast is great. But I don't bless myself every time I walk past a jar of Nutella in the shop. I believe that Metal Gear Solid 3 is the best game ever, but I don't pray to Hideo Kojima (the creator of the game) every night.

I don't bless myself either.

What about the scriptures you peruse, or the high priests whose word is treated as gospel? Perhaps you're not as avid a believer as many around here.

But again, you're saying that a lack of belief is a belief in itself,

I'm not saying that. Lack of belief is like a lack of a red elephant in front of me. it's nothing at all.

It's what you do believe (in shared fashion) that under-girds the congregation here. Not your lack of belief.

Sarky

antiskeptic wrote: »

However, atheists, whilst lacking a belief in god don't believe nothing - they believe something. And because the somethings they believe in are shared by many other atheists and because there are many similarities with reliigions in the way those beliefs are espoused, a case can be made for forming an atheist 'church'

At least, some atheists seem to think so.

Almost everyone in the world believes that drinking nothing but fizzy drinks and not brushing your teeth will cause them to rot and cause you intense pain and suffering, but that's hardly any reason to found the Brotherhood of the Toothbrush to save the non-flossers from the evil clutches of Tooth Decay.

It's perfectly possible to have a quite pleasant and fulfilling life, free of regret and fear without believing in anything at all. Shocking, I know. It turns out that the god-shaped hole is a damn sight smaller than you'd think, and easily filled with any number of things.

An atheist church might as well be called a common room.

Dades

antiskeptic wrote: »

On this forum (a context set earlier)

anti-theism / naturalisim / empiricism /

What do mean on this forum?

I don't care what context you wish to bring into this - atheism isn't defined by where it is being defined.

antiskeptic

koth wrote: »

are you claiming only atheists work in advertising?

Godlessness isn't confined to atheists (according to my belief system). Nor is it impossible that a Christian work for an agency that utilizes sex to sell. The overarching point is that a godless society will tend towards that which is offensive to me.

You seem to be saying that your right to have it your way exceeds my right to have it my way.

That doesn't mean it has anything to do with me being an atheist though.

Atheists (active per congregating in places like this) tend to have particular shared beliefs. Those beliefs tend towards finding some things fair and other things not.

that does nothing to support your claim though. You list out things in the attempt to create a religion under the banner of atheism, but all it does is show how much you misunderstand what atheism actually is.

Atheism isn't anything. It's a lack of something. Once you start congregating around a cause you enter the terrain of religion (belief-system). Religions concern themselves with the existential. They concern themselves around the shaping of society.

What's the big difference?

Penn

antiskeptic wrote: »

I don't bless myself either.

What about the scriptures you peruse, or the high priests whose word is treated as gospel? Perhaps you're not as avid a believer as many around here.

I'm not saying that. Lack of belief is like a lack of a red elephant in front of me. it's nothing at all.

It's what you do believe (in shared fashion) that under-girds the congregation here. Not your lack of belief.

What scriptures? Books?
What High Priests? Dawkins?

Look, the point here is that most of the atheists on this thread so far, and I agree with them, think this Church is a bad idea, or a poor concept. I don't want to be shoe-horned into some Atheist Religion where, like you possibly implied, The God Delusion could be treated as Scripture or Dawkins as a Prophet or some such. I don't want that because I don't want to be told what to believe. I want to make up my own mind, continuously, as and when something comes along which could make me modify such beliefs. There are themes throughout the views and opinions of a lot of atheists, but that's like me grouping you together with Muslims, Jews, Mormons, Scientologists etc as a group who believes in the idea of Supernatural Deities.

You are free to separate yourself from them in whatever manner you choose, such as not going to their churches, not believing what they believe and not classing yourself as the same religion as they are. But I want the same thing. I don't want to be part of a Church of Atheism. I just want to believe what I believe and continuously change and challenge those beliefs in my own way.

axer

antiskeptic wrote: »

Atheism isn't anything. It's a lack of something. Once you start congregating around a cause you enter the terrain of religion (belief-system). Religions concern themselves with the existential. They concern themselves around the shaping of society.

What's the big difference?

Atheism only exists because theism exists. It is saying "I am not a theist"
(doh, you need to pronounce the 'a' as 'ahh' to avoid the confusion)

I rally around the cause of promoting handball thus handball is a religion?

Delirium

antiskeptic wrote: »

Godlessness isn't confined to atheists (according to my belief system). Nor is it impossible that a Christian work for an agency that utilizes sex to sell. The overarching point is that a godless society will tend towards that which is offensive to me.

You seem to be saying that your right to have it your way exceeds my right to have it my way.

Nope, never said that. At best, I guess I could say that you don't have a right not to be offended.

Atheists (active per congregating in places like this) tend to have particular shared beliefs. Those beliefs tend towards finding some things fair and other things not.

Still doesn't make it a religion.

Atheism isn't anything. It's a lack of something. Once you start congregating around a cause you enter the terrain of religion (belief-system). Religions concern themselves with the existential. They concern themselves around the shaping of society.

What's the big difference?

Atheism isn't a religion, and it's wrong to describe it as such.

antiskeptic

Dades wrote: »

What do mean on this forum?

I mean people who:

a) say they lack a belief in god/s (atheist)

b) express the shared views you see here. ('religious' atheists)

I don't care what context you wish to bring into this - atheism isn't defined by where it is being defined.

The context is religious atheism. Not insignificant atheism (in the sense that my being an aredelephantsittingoppositeme-ist is insignificant)

antiskeptic

Sarky wrote: »

Almost everyone in the world believes that drinking nothing but fizzy drinks and not brushing your teeth will cause them to rot and cause you intense pain and suffering, but that's hardly any reason to found the Brotherhood of the Toothbrush to save the non-flossers from the evil clutches of Tooth Decay.

You've not noticed the march of new atheism then of late?

It's perfectly possible to have a quite pleasant and fulfilling life, free of regret and fear without believing in anything at all. Shocking, I know. It turns out that the god-shaped hole is a damn sight smaller than you'd think, and easily filled with any number of things.

Indeed. And the interest is in the shared views of some of those lacking-a-belief-ers. Those here gathered for instance. Or those on RichardDawkins,net

An atheist church might as well be called a common room.

So might a Christian one.

antiskeptic

koth wrote: »

Nope, never said that. At best, I guess I could say that you don't have a right not to be offended.

And I guess I could say you don't have the right to offend me. In fact, that's were we started out

me a few posts ago wrote:

Problems can be said to occur in reverse. The influence of a godless society on me and my family when I'm not a member of that godlessness.

Still doesn't make it a religion.

In so far as it systematically deals with the same issues at root as religions do then I don't see how you can argue otherwise. Got congregation will travel.

Atheism isn't a religion, and it's wrong to describe it as such.

A lack of belief in something isn't anything anymore than my lack of a belief that there is a red elephant sitting opposite me isn't anything.

Atheism often doesn't halt here, it joins forums and writes books and propagates its views. It does all the things that religions do at root.

I made the distinction between insignificant atheism and religious atheism above. In so far as it performs like a religion, atheism is one. Atheism that does nothing other than not have a belief in god's isn't significant for the simple reason that such atheism does nothing.

MagicMarker

antiskeptic wrote: »

Atheism doesn't halt here, it joins forums and writes books and propagates its views.

People who are atheists write books, join forums and propagate views, atheism does not. It's also been explained to you countless times why that is the case, yet you simply ignore it and continue waffling on regardless. It gets old.