Designer Breeds

ISDW

I'm sorry but I don't understand why people are getting so upset. Nobody, but nobody on this thread has said that crossbreeds are bad. If somebody has, please point it out to me.

Designer dogs are dogs that are deliberately crossed with no health checks and then sold as something that they are not. That is the issue. If someone wants to buy a lab cross, no problem, and I can't see anywhere on here that anybody has said it is a problem. And yes, of course the breeders are at fault, but so are the people that buy them and give the breeders the reason to keep on breeding them. If there wasn't a market for them, then the puppy farmers wouldn't bother breeding.

Are people just not reading things, or are they deliberately misunderstanding them for an argument?

johnt, Shanao put up 'black and white proof', by posting links to the adds for them. Yes, obviously I know that they are not recognised breeds by any kennel club, that is the point, which you are obviously completely missing.

andreac

john t wrote: »

dbb wat dog breed do i own???iswd show me black n white proof ur so called designer breed excictds??????

Have you actually read this whole thread? Obviously not as you are missing the point we are making. I suggest you read this thread PROPERLY first and then come back and realise what you are posting makes no sense...

The Sweeper

Evac105 wrote: »

Here's my point - I can blame the users or I can blame the people who caused the situation (in this case a government who wanted to be seen as a 'modern' European education system but didn't think through how to achieve that).

There is a key difference between what you describe and the deliberate breeding of mongrels for sale.

That key difference is economics. In your case, you can blame the people who caused the situation. In the case of economics, the people who cause the situation by breeding mongrels would stop if there was no more money in it, so yes, I can lay blame at the feet of those who buy so-called designer dogs.

You buy a mongrel, you sustain the business.

'Mongrel' isn't a bad word. My dog's a mongrel. I can use bitsa instead if you like ('What's your dog?' 'Oh, bitsa this, bitsa that').

Evac105

ohmfg wrote: »

I think at this point, that if some home truths raise the hackles on a few ignorant backs, well so be it. It's a cop out - used ad nauseum by people who want their awful decisions validated - to bleat on about how they didn't know any better and it wasn't their fault they bought the badly bred pup for small fortune.
All forms of media are awash with articles advising and educating.
People - in the main - just often can't be bothered to inform themselves. Information and education make it much more difficult to do the right thing, consciences then have to be listened to. Cynical as it may sound, I often think people remain as unaware as they appear, deliberately.
It's so much easier.

Fair point I guess. I can only approach things from my own perspective I suppose and say that although both of our dogs were purchased (one mix, one pb) we tried to ensure that neither were the result of puppy farms. I would still say however that a more productive approach is to choke the supply through legislation rather then berate the purchaser. It's the same principle that we currently use for other 'consumer products' (a horrible way to put it I acknowledge) so why not in this case? I say this having a friend who has told me in the past that legislation never got off the ground because too much 'interested' cash was against it. What is always true though is that if enough people are against something, strongly, politicians pay attention - they can't earn bribes without positions.

DBB

We are very close to having the Dog Breeding Establishments Act signed into law. The new greyhounds bill is almost ready, and both are to have their commencement orders signed together. The greyhounds bill has caused the delay.
So there is legislation on the way.
The terrible pity is that this 'wonderful' new legislation effectively legalises puppy farms. It will not control how many dogs you can keep for breeding, it does not control how many pups are produced. It will not control whether you breed purebreds or xbreeds.
Premises will be inspected and under licence, but the cynical (realistic?) side of me questions how well the welfare aspects will be implemented.
In fact, the new act is seriously lacking in provision of welfare.
Let's hope the animal welfare bill eventually sees the light of day. But until then, I can't see that dogs, or indeed their new owners, are going to be well served by the new legislation.

Zapperzy

Shanao wrote: »

We all know that designer breeds dont exist, this is what these so-called breeders are calling them and selling them as. For example:

http://www.donedeal.ie/for-sale/dogs/2339655

http://www.donedeal.ie/for-sale/dogs/2327051

http://www.donedeal.ie/for-sale/dogs/2275367

http://www.donedeal.ie/for-sale/dogs/2307743

http://www.donedeal.ie/for-sale/dogs/2297324

http://www.donedeal.ie/for-sale/dogs/2271846

These are just a few examples. This is why we use the term 'designer breed' because that is what these BYBs and Puppy farmers are calling them. It is not a term used by us because we're 'judging' as you put it.

All I can say is fools and their money...... :rolleyes:

Evac105 wrote: »

Once again, while I get where you're coming form this type of language is only going to raise the hackles of the people that you're, supposedly, trying to educate. What you're expressing, in a very emotive and aggressive way, is that there's a level of ignorance contributing to dogs being PTS in Ireland.

A corollary - I work with State run institutions, specifically IT for schools. 25 years ago 2000 odd administrative staff in Ireland's secondary schools were given computers and told to continue doing their jobs, but using the computers now. We're still dealing with the effects of that today as no training or in-school support was provided to those staff, the vast majority of whom had never used a computer before. Here's my point - I can blame the users or I can blame the people who caused the situation (in this case a government who wanted to be seen as a 'modern' European education system but didn't think through how to achieve that).

Unless you provide the possibility for education you can't blame people for ignorance. It would be like me complaining that my customers don't know how to perform basic operations on computers, when they've never been given any training on using them. Your ire would be more appropriately (imo obviously) directed at the people producing the pups and the legislators who take no measures to prevent this situation. Being unhappy with the 'end-user' achieves nothing and, in fact, can alienate some of the people you need on your side to actually get something done.

But the resources are there for education, nearly every single article you read about buying puppys will mention something about puppy farms, even this forum has a sticky up the top about puppy farms. Granted if someone does not use a computer it limits their resources for research but there are still books, magazines and just old fashioned talking to people in the know from which to research so I really think ignorance is a very poor excuse. Even on tv and in the newspapers there have been investigations into puppy farms.

I think it's the age long problem of you can bring the horse to the water but you can't force him to drink it.

On the subject of ignorance about dogs being pts'd in Ireland yes there is a huge level of ignorance about dogs being pts'd in pounds, you even hear it here that people still think that it's only mongrels with issues that are pts'd, that these dogs are aggressive, sick or just the ugly dogs that no one else wants. People are shocked at the thought that they could find a purebred dog in the pound or even a perfectly healthy dog with a sound temperment. Even my neighbour was saying how he'd never get a dog from the pound because his aunt got a terrier from the pound and in his words it was a 'vicious thing' which ended up being pts'd.

Evac105 wrote: »

Fair point I guess. I can only approach things from my own perspective I suppose and say that although both of our dogs were purchased (one mix, one pb) we tried to ensure that neither were the result of puppy farms. I would still say however that a more productive approach is to choke the supply through legislation rather then berate the purchaser. It's the same principle that we currently use for other 'consumer products' (a horrible way to put it I acknowledge) so why not in this case? I say this having a friend who has told me in the past that legislation never got off the ground because too much 'interested' cash was against it. What is always true though is that if enough people are against something, strongly, politicians pay attention - they can't earn bribes without positions.

Even if legislation is brought in (and pretty weak legislation it is, as was already said all it does is legalises puppy farms, just another form of tax so the gov can rake in more money :mad:) there is still a responsibility on the buyer to stamp out irresponsible breeding. If the demand was to dry up then the supply will also. I can honestly say it will probably be a long long time before there is any legislation that makes puppy farms illegal, sure one of the biggest (if not the biggest I think) puppy farmers in the country ran in the last election, so there is too much vested interest and money to be made for them to ban them.

Lexii307

The Sweeper wrote: »

I don't have a problem with people wanting a pedigree dog, so I don't have a problem with ethical, responsible dog breeding.

However as long as we continue to euthanise quite literally tens of thousands of healthy, viable animals with perfectly reasonable temperaments in our pounds and shelters every year, I think breeding non-pedigree dogs without a licence should be illegal.

It's disgusting. It's wasteful. It's treating animals like trinkets, like landfill, like decorations.

Every Backyard-Bred small white fluffy that goes to a home, regardless of whether or not it's as healthy as an ox, occupies that space for say 10 years. That's a space that a cute, healthy, viable, sweet tempered dog on death row in the pound could have occupied.

I don't have a problem with mongrels - there are plenty of 'oops' litters every year - litters of pups where someone didn't get their bitch neutered early enough and she got knocked up; litters had through ignorance where someone believes the bitch should have one season before being neutered and she gets pregnant; litters where someone who's against neutering their animals for whatever reason isn't vigilant enough one season and ends up with a litter of pups.

The problem is when some opportunistic bastard realised they could make money off an oops litter - wow, these are cute, I bet someone will give me a couple of hundred euro for them... Puppy farmers have capitalised on it in the most obnoxious way, but back yard breeders aren't without guilt in this - their pups may live in better conditions than on large-scale puppy factories, but they're still performing unethically and without the best interests of the bitch and her pups at heart. She'll still have too many litters, and the pups will still be rehomed too early, and it's still a bloody mess.

Dog breeding should be left to registered breeders with a vested interest in the improvement of the breed, both for appearance and in consideration of the genetic health of the dog.

I feel that not only do i need to reply to this but i have to reply to this. Fair enough you make a valid point but do you not think that there are some decent owners out there who do eveything right to help their animal? Some people simply cant handle the responsibility of having a dog. Its not the dogs problem!

As for you not having a problem with "oops liters" to me you seem very against the idea. My dog Lexii had a litter of 6 puppies after us only finding out soon before she had the pups. It was our fault, im not denying it but we did everything we could to stop her from getting pregnant. Its not our fault our neighbour couldnt stop his dog from coming onto our property...ANYWAY shes now neutered. We had it planned to get her done but since she was pregnant we couldnt.

The whole point you make about unhealthy back yard breeding in my opinion is ridiculous. Both my xbreed dogs have great temperment and never stray outside the enterance of the house. The father od Lexii's pups who is a purebred springer spaniel is always getting out. I have NEVER paid for a dog in my life and i have NEVER wanted to make a profit out of my dogs puppies. They all went to 6 great loving homes and were all checked out by a vet who said they were excellent puppies with excellent temperments.

When i got Lexii she was covered in fleas and had worms. I was outside for about 2 hours geting rid of evey flea and worming her to make sure that she was healthy. When those puppies left my property they were all wormed and they were spotless.

Next time you may want to get some insights before you judge everyone and paint eveyone with he same brush. I may not have done everything i could for my Lexii, but ive done it now. I didnt get Lexii, i rescued her!

The Sweeper

Lexii307 wrote: »

I feel that not only do i need to reply to this but i have to reply to this. Fair enough you make a valid point but do you not think that there are some decent owners out there who do eveything right to help their animal? Some people simply cant handle the responsibility of having a dog. Its not the dogs problem!

As for you not having a problem with "oops liters" to me you seem very against the idea. My dog Lexii had a litter of 6 puppies after us only finding out soon before she had the pups. It was our fault, im not denying it but we did everything we could to stop her from getting pregnant. Its not our fault our neighbour couldnt stop his dog from coming onto our property...ANYWAY shes now neutered. We had it planned to get her done but since she was pregnant we couldnt.

The whole point you make about unhealthy back yard breeding in my opinion is ridiculous. Both my xbreed dogs have great temperment and never stray outside the enterance of the house. The father od Lexii's pups who is a purebred springer spaniel is always getting out. I have NEVER paid for a dog in my life and i have NEVER wanted to make a profit out of my dogs puppies. They all went to 6 great loving homes and were all checked out by a vet who said they were excellent puppies with excellent temperments.

When i got Lexii she was covered in fleas and had worms. I was outside for about 2 hours geting rid of evey flea and worming her to make sure that she was healthy. When those puppies left my property they were all wormed and they were spotless.

Next time you may want to get some insights before you judge everyone and paint eveyone with he same brush. I may not have done everything i could for my Lexii, but ive done it now. I didnt get Lexii, i rescued her!

So I said I don't have a problem with oops litters, and you read that as I have a problem with oops litters?

Next time you may want to read a post properly before you go off on one.

Additionally, an 'oops' litter is an accident. A backyard breeder is someone who deliberately crossbreeds their dog. You didn't deliberatly crossbreed your dog to make money on a litter of puppies.

Please don't choose to assume criticism applies to you and then take deliberate offence because you haven't read something properly.

andreac

You didnt do everything because if you did, she wouldnt have got pregnant.

If there was a chance a dog could come on to your property then it is up to you to keep your dog contained and away from the other dog.

At the moment my female is in season and i have an entire male and to say its a nightmare is an understatement.

But, as a responsible owner i have to do EVERYTHING to make sure he doesnt get near her. This meant sending her to my parents for over a week. I brought her back last night as shes at the end of her season, or so i thought and he is still mad to get at her so i have to keep them separated for another while yet and its a logistical nightmare, trust me. But thats what you have to do when you are a responsible owner.

Lexii307

The Sweeper you said "there are plenty of 'oops' litters every year - litters of pups where someone didn't get their bitch neutered early enough and she got knocked up; litters had through ignorance where someone believes the bitch should have one season before being neutered and she gets pregnant; litters where someone who's against neutering their animals for whatever reason isn't vigilant enough one season and ends up with a litter of pups."

So EXCUSE ME for picking up on the whole against oops litters. This is my interpretations right or wrong. But your not exactly making a good backing argument to me. Im in no way taking offense to anything, but im just saying that your whole point of view on people who couldnt care about their pets having pups is untrue.

Andeac you have obviously misunderstood. I said that i may not have done everything but ive done it now and i think that the law might disagree with you about unwanted pets on my property. I had my dog in the garage we have and id let her out to do her business so was i suppose to lock her up in there? It was unfortunate timing.

carwash_2006

An in heat bitch should never, ever be left alone outside, even in your own garden. If this means she is confined to a crate or suchlike for a large part of her heat, it is only a relatively short time. While the law may be on your side that isn't going to work as birth control.

We learnt this lesson many years ago when our bitch came into season earlier than we expected, she was only left alone for a brief period in what we had thought was a very secure, walled garden. When we opened the door to get her back in there was a very contented looking male collie sitting beside her. We then took a trip into the vets who said there was a higher risk in spaying her while in heat and it would cost us slightly more also, but since she was a rescue bitch and had, had a very dubious start in life we decided that this would be the safer option for both her and any potential pups.

andreac

Lexii307 wrote: »

[BAndeac[/B] you have obviously misunderstood. I said that i may not have done everything but ive done it now and i think that the law might disagree with you about unwanted pets on my property. I had my dog in the garage we have and id let her out to do her business so was i suppose to lock her up in there? It was unfortunate timing.

No you didnt, you said you DID everything, not may have done.

As Carwash said, you cannot leave your female in heat alone for one minute, as thats all it takes for a male to mate with her.

I dont know what you mean about the law disagreeing with me, i never mentioned anything about a law. You cant stop dogs from coming in to your garden if they arent under your control, but you cna make sure that your bitch is supervised and kept away from this dog by keeping it locked inside in the house etc.

ppink

We had an "Oops" litter years ago and it was straight down to total ignorance. we had always grown up with male dogs and were completely clueless about females......when I think of it:o:o:o

Anyway we found homes for all the pups and ever since everthing with a pulse is neutered.

I thank god when I read of the above and how it is so hard to deal with in heat dogs. Makes me think back to the nuns telling us if you ever had to sit on a boys knee to put a hardback book between you and the boy

**Vai**

My female has been in heat the last 2 weeks, shes allowed in my back yard unsupervised. Ive also been minding a friends intact male for the last week and while I wont leave them alone for long, my dog wants nothing to do with him. Point being, its not always a case of 'dont leave her for a second or she'll get pregnant'.

andreac

Sorry Vai but you are asking for trouble there, be very careful after 2 weeks they are only in the middle of their heat, the crucial time to be mated and get pregnant. Anytime from day 13-18 is the main time to be mated.

My bitch is on day 21 and my male is still mad for her and i mean mad!! Ive heard of bitches getting pregnant at day 21 so please, just be careful as she is just at the right time tob mated if its only 2 weeks in to her heat.

So im afraid you are wrong when you said its ok to leave them unsupervised, very bad advice there and this is coming from myself who is experienced with females being in heat and when they are supposed to be mated.

**Vai**

Dont get me wrong Im not advocating that people take chances with in heat bitches Im just saying its not always that bad.
I also dont think Im wrong to say my female can be alone in the back yard for short periods of time, my yard is secure. Its obviously not general advice, I was just sharing my personal view on whats happening in my house right now. Same as you were.

There is no chance of my female getting pregnant from the male I am minding. They are watched when together, she has shown constantly thats shes not interested ( I know that can change thats why I still supervise them), and this guy would need a stepladder to get near her.

And apologies, I meant 3 weeks as opposed to 2. She was 2 weeks in when the male arrived.

carwash_2006

The only thing Vai is that that situation would be very much not the norm. You never know at what point the penny may suddenly drop with the male either and in that split second when your back is turned the deed is done.

Another word of warning to people. Don't rely on crates or wire fences, if the bitch is willing the male can in some cases get her through the bars :eek: and yes sometimes the bitch is that willing.

andreac

Well thats different then. 3 weeks is def a lot different than 2 but they can change interest within a matter of hours. I got to day 13 with my male and he changed instantly, unless you have actually seen how a male dog behaves around a bitch in heat you wouldnt believe what its like.

I literally had to drag my male away from my bitch yesterday after she arrived home from being away for the best part of a week. Shes day 21 today which means she should be finished but my male was still crazy for her.

**Vai**

@Carwash 2006; Oh yeah I realise its not the norm, its my bitches good catholic upbringing Seriously though, I know its not always that way, thats why Im not advocating anyone else do it. But it is different in every situation, its not 1 way as a rule.

**Vai**

andreac wrote: »

Well thats different then. 3 weeks is def a lot different than 2 but they can change interest within a matter of hours. I got to day 13 with my male and he changed instantly, unless you have actually seen how a male dog behaves around a bitch in heat you wouldnt believe what its like.

I literally had to drag my male away from my bitch yesterday after she arrived home from being away for the best part of a week. Shes day 21 today which means she should be finished but my male was still crazy for her.

Oh Ive seen it alright, worse than teenage boys. A few days of corrections really improved the males behaviour though. Hes still noticably interested but hes calmed alot. It helps that she is not at all interested of course. Again, this wont work in every situation but it has in mine.

andreac

**Vai** wrote: »

Oh Ive seen it alright, worse than teenage boys. A few days of corrections really improved the males behaviour though. Hes still noticably interested but hes calmed alot. It helps that she is not at all interested of course. Again, this wont work in every situation but it has in mine.

No matter what you do, a male will always try to mate with a bitch and correcting him isnt going to stop him. It may do in your case but certainly not mine or most male dogs i know of.

**Vai**

Thats why I posted originally, to say its not always the way yourself and others were describing. It is a case of different strokes.
Obviously nature dictates that this male will be interested in my female but that does not mean u turn around for 2 seconds and 3 months later your home is full of puppies.

carwash_2006

But I'm not sure whether it is necessary for people to be told that it doesn't always happen that way. The fact is it CAN happen that way, so really anybody with an entire bitch should always be on high alert, even if it appears to be the way you have described with your bitch.

Fine it's an interesting story, but I'd rather scare the bejaysus out of people so they are over cautious on this matter than have someone that would like not to have to make much of an effort have any kind of excuse.

john t

wow taut this was about so called mytical designer breeds?? anyhow ive been away doing business.. my view is i meet other dog owner and i ask wat type dog is that they say x or mongrel i say lovely dog, if they say it a crooss of dog a and dog b u i say ok nice too meet u byebye.. but when dog expert meet puppy owner and ask wat type dog is it and owner reply mongrel no prob if owner reply it is dog a x dog b and dog expert begins too educate owner and tells owner about dog pros nd cons then refers too dog as designeer breed, now dog owner returns home and tells friend/ sister/ neighbour that they met a educated dog professional who referred too their pup as designer breed.... said friend/ neighbour goes i want designeer breed, rings dog seller asks for designer breed he thinks ok it cost xtra.... i produce wat people want.. but it was dog xpert who referred too dog as designeer breed... my point do not refeer too dog as designeer you only fuel the buissiness.. i

Cherry Blossom

I think I see your point in there somewhere john t but surely there's an awful lot of 'if's' and 'but's' in there

I see nothing wrong with anyone saying their dog is a labrabor crossed with a collie, in my opinion if you are saying that, it's the same thing as saying it's a mongrel.

It's when you call it a labradollie or colliedor or some imaginary made up breed name like this that it becomes a so called 'designer' breed and there are problems.

ISDW

john t wrote: »

wow taut this was about so called mytical designer breeds?? anyhow ive been away doing business.. my view is i meet other dog owner and i ask wat type dog is that they say x or mongrel i say lovely dog, if they say it a crooss of dog a and dog b u i say ok nice too meet u byebye.. but when dog expert meet puppy owner and ask wat type dog is it and owner reply mongrel no prob if owner reply it is dog a x dog b and dog expert begins too educate owner and tells owner about dog pros nd cons then refers too dog as designeer breed, now dog owner returns home and tells friend/ sister/ neighbour that they met a educated dog professional who referred too their pup as designer breed.... said friend/ neighbour goes i want designeer breed, rings dog seller asks for designer breed he thinks ok it cost xtra.... i produce wat people want.. but it was dog xpert who referred too dog as designeer breed... my point do not refeer too dog as designeer you only fuel the buissiness.. i

Sorry, your post is really difficult to read, but you really are missing the point. Puppy farmers sell these dogs with made up names, pretending they are some new breed - thats what a designer breed is. They are the ones that advertise the dogs with this made up name, just look at the links that have been put up on this thread. None of these breeds are registered so no, you are right, they do not exist in that respect, but people are selling them as something, thats what exists.

john t

yeah so if they say its a custom/croosed dog with nice title walk away dont educate or give opinion too owner.. not trying too irritate people just sayiny if term designer dosnt come up then it is not pushed too breed...

Cherry Blossom

Do you really believe that? Don't you think it would even be worth while educating them that because the dog is a cross of two breeds it might have all the problems that each breed is prone to?

john t

if i meet / encouter such owners and they ask for advice i tell them im not quallified too give advice..

The Sweeper

What qualification do you need to be able to tell someone 'Your dog is still prone to the genetic defects of both of the breeds that were crossed to make it - you should have your vet check your dog as it grows for all of those defects'?