Designer Breeds

Shanao

Met a woman yesterday who had just bought a cavalier cross bichon puppy (or cavachon as these idiots are calling them). She bought it because the kids suffer from allergies and she couldn't afford to buy a purebred bichon. And then she proceeded to get offended when I told her it was highly unlikely the dog would be hypoallergenic. I asked her why did she pay money for a dog with no health-testing done, no papers and no vaccinations and her reply was, 'what's health-testing?' and 'we probably wont breed her so we dont need papers'....

At this point, I think I'm just going to give up. Why, oh why, is it seemingly impossible for people to do some research before picking their newest familngi member. Why are they simply falling for the same traps over and over again?

Anyway, what I want to get at with all of this, is whether we could do up a thread about designer breeds and the myths and facts about them or could I add it to the sticky about puppy farming?

ppink

I honestly just dont know anymore.

I met someone a while back that got their dog a cavapoochon......something or other:rolleyes: from an "excellent" breeder "all the way" from DUBLIN:(. They paid 500yoyos for this poor little creature that looked like a long haired hamster:(

Then I was in the vets again and a family came in with a pup to get it neutered......all was fine until the pup started to bark and the mother proceed to hit him across the head with a book every time he barked:mad:.

Honestly I think you can put up all the threads you want but those who actually come in here looking for help PRIOR to getting the dog will most likely have read up on things.
I dont know at this stage wha tthe best media is to get through to people on a bigger scale.

Shanao

There really doesn't seem to be anything anyone can do about it besides try to educate the people stupid enough to buy them I suppose. Its a pity. Imagine running an ad campaign or something. The BYBs would be up in arms over it

Shanao

ppink wrote: »

Then I was in the vets again and a family came in with a pup to get it neutered......all was fine until the pup started to bark and the mother proceed to hit him across the head with a book every time he barked:mad:.

On this part :eek: What the hell is wrong with people!?

Zapperzy

I really cannot understand why people go for these doodles.
Some of the excuses thrown around include that they are healthier because purebreds have a limited gene pool so therefore you xbreed and you immediately get a healthier offspring, with complete heinz 57 mongrels I can somewhat understand this arguement to a certain degree but not with an F1 (first generation cross) xbreed.

Then you've got the their oh so cute factor, well so are 8 week old golden retriever or shihtzu pups well actually any 8 week old pup is cute, it's called oxytocin! :rolleyes:

Then you've got the types that just have to have the newest fad and proudly flaunt around their labrashihcavapoochondoodle and claim they'l soon be recognised by the breed club. :rolleyes:

Then you get the types that when you try and explain to them that their 'designer breed' is actually a xbreed with a fancy name they claim you are a purebreed snob, I'm far from it, my own dog is a xbreed of some sort.

With a basic understanding of genetics (and I mean secondary school stuff) anyone can tell that it's absolutely impossible to claim that by breeding 2 breeds together you get the best of both breeds.

As for the well there's no other breed that will suit me arguement, there's what like 400 and something breeds, surely there's at least 1 that suits everyone? There are plenty of hypoallergenic breeds so you don't need to go xbreeding poodles with anything with legs to go creating more 'hypoallergenic breeds'.

And of course the classic 'well how did we end up with all the different breeds anyways, they all had to be created with crossbreeding', yes with careful (and yes sometimes not so careful) selection and crossbreeding over years and years different breeds were created, not with paddy joe and mary up the road crossing their pet labrador with a poodle to create yet more F1 crosses. How in the honour of god can anyone claim they are creating a new breed when all they do is create F1 crosses that each and every pup looks different and there is no standard or uniformity.
If people were health testing and carefully choosing dogs to breed and breeding towards a standard all while crossbreeding and backcrossing and adding a number of mixes in with a goal in mind (health, temperment and a breed standard) then I can see a point to it, but otherwise I see it just as a puppy farmer cashing in on people's ignorance and lack of research.

**Vai**

By all means Shanao, go for it. Sick to death of hearing about health problems in these poor unfortunate creatures. When we start breeding for the lapdog cuteness factor (or sometimes just for the sake of seeing whats gonna come out) instead of breeding proper dogs with uniformity, reasonable health, a snout for gods sake, instincts and specialist skills, we've gone wrong.

Oranage2

#why dont people mind their own business when somebody buys a dog?

Are these dogs going to have any extra health risks assiosiated with them that a dog from the pound or a dog bred of unsuperior genes is gonna have?.....No!

If somebody wants a labradoodle or whatever is that any worse than somebody wanting a Rottie?

As long as somebody isnt buying off a puppy farm I dont see whats the problem as people should be allowed do what they want with their own money without some dog snop passing comment!

Shanao

Oranage2 wrote: »

#why dont people mind their own business when somebody buys a dog?

Are these dogs going to have any extra health risks assiosiated with them that a dog from the pound or a dog bred of unsuperior genes is gonna have?.....No!

If somebody wants a labradoodle or whatever is that any worse than somebody wanting a Rottie?

As long as somebody isnt buying off a puppy farm I dont see whats the problem as people should be allowed do what they want with their own money without some dog snop passing comment!

Where do you think designer breeds come from exactly? You know, seeing as no responsible breeder would breed one?

pokertalk

Oranage2 wrote: »

#why dont people mind their own business when somebody buys a dog?

Are these dogs going to have any extra health risks assiosiated with them that a dog from the pound or a dog bred of unsuperior genes is gonna have?.....No!

If somebody wants a labradoodle or whatever is that any worse than somebody wanting a Rottie?

As long as somebody isnt buying off a puppy farm I dont see whats the problem as people should be allowed do what they want with their own money without some dog snop passing comment!

its this kind of attitude that it is the very reason y it is so hard to stop people buying these dogs. the fact that they dont know the story behind the dog they are buying or not do any research

Oranage2

So every single designer breed puppy is born in a puppy farm?......Dont think so!

If the owner checks out the mother and father of the dog and the house where the dogs were reared and everything checks out then I dont see the problem!

Shanao

Oranage2 wrote: »

So every single designer breed puppy is born in a puppy farm?......Dont think so!

If the owner checks out the mother and father of the dog and the house where the dogs were reared and everything checks out then I dont see the problem!

Show me someone who breeds these who isn't a puppy farmer or backyard breeder and I will honestly eat my own hat.
So let's put one out there then. I have a chihuahua, my OH buys a cavalier, we live in a nice house, and have the dogs indoors. Neither of these dogs have been healthtested but we decide to breed them anyway, to make money *Cough* I mean make 'superior dogs'. Oh and look, the puppies are really cute let's sell them for hundreds of euros. Oh wait, now I have several puppies with skulls too small for their brains, luxating patellas, heart problems, eyes problems and... oh **** it, slap the name chivalier on there and let's make some money. Oh and lets tell everyone that they're excellent kids' dogs cos there's cavalier in there, and you know, ignore the fact that chihuahuas are far too delicate and fragile for young kids. After all, our dogs are 'superior' to pedigrees.

This is pretty much how all 'Designer breeds' start out.

The point of breeding is to further enhance and progress your chosen breed, not to help **** it up even more.

Zapperzy

Oranage2 wrote: »

#why dont people mind their own business when somebody buys a dog?

Are these dogs going to have any extra health risks assiosiated with them that a dog from the pound or a dog bred of unsuperior genes is gonna have?.....No!

It's the exact same as someone buying a purebred dog from a dodgy breeder, I am as much against buying purebreds from dodgy breeders as buying crossbreeds from dodgy breeders.

Oranage2 wrote: »

If somebody wants a labradoodle or whatever is that any worse than somebody wanting a Rottie?

Yes it's just as bad if they are going to buy that rottie irresponsibly from a byb or puppy farmer. It still stands that 99.9% of 'designer dog' breeders are byb's or puppy farmers.

Oranage2 wrote: »

As long as somebody isnt buying off a puppy farm I dont see whats the problem as people should be allowed do what they want with their own money without some dog snop passing comment!

Ok then the next time someone asks advice about buying a dog we shall all shut our mouths for fear that we will be labelled dog snobs. Wait actually if thats the case I am a dog snob and proud of it and I will continue to be a dog snob and try to educate people about buying dogs responsibly.

Cherry Blossom

Actually, if someone wants to post some links to websites of responsible breeders of these crosses it would be great. Then if people are so determined to get them they can be pointed in the right direction. You seem to feel strongly about this Orange2 and if you know of breeders of these crosses that fully health test their breeding stock for all genetic conditions relevant to each of the parents it would be really helpful if you could share that information. I have to admit I've never came across any but I'm clearly missing something, great idea though, well done for thinking of it!

pokertalk

yeah im a snob to so. even ask my two poundies jack x staff x whatever and my lab x mastiff that someone decided to cross

easyeason3

If I was in the market to buy a dog I would certainly be doing my homework on breeders.
This so called 'designer' breed is absolute nonsense. Basically you are paying a complete amateur for the privilage of owning a mongrel. I have nothing against mongrels, my own dog is a lab x who knows.
I'd actually be more concerned about the pups health than the so called designer breeds gone into making him/ her.

theghost

Maybe it's time to go back to calling crossbreeds mongrels. I gave up after a woman asked me what breed my eldest was and I told her she was a labrador collie cross. She replied "oh...a collidor". I've now taken to describing her when asked as "a mongrel...one parent was a collie and the other was a labrador" and the other two as "mongrels...jack russels crossed with God knows what". If people started calling their crossbreeds mongrels this craze for designer crossbreeds might hopefully stop.

Evac105

One of my current dogs is a 'designer dog' or a cross as I call him (lab/boxer). His mother was a chocolate lab that a farmer in Wicklow owned, his father was a brindle boxer that his neighbour owned. While farmers were involved I believe their main interest was sheep, not puppies. Thankfully my pet has been relatively trouble free and is a well adjusted, energetic, cynical little puppy. Not that that's anything but anecdotal evidence obviously.

I've spoken with three different vets so far regarding the advantages of cross breeding versus pure breeding. I don't know really whether their qualifications make them experts in this but I'm assuming it means they should know more then me. 2 of 3 said that cross breeding from a health perspective is advantageous, the third felt it made only a minor, if any, difference. So, different small pet vets in the same practice don't even agree - two of whom had spent the time to get their PhD's in small animal care and the three have 40+ years of experience between them. Pardon me if I'll continue to believe that since they're disagreeing that unless someone has more specialised training then them that they cannot speak with any surety on this matter - it's an opinion not a fact.

Oranage2

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Actually, if someone wants to post some links to websites of responsible breeders of these crosses it would be great. Then if people are so determined to get them they can be pointed in the right direction. You seem to feel strongly about this Orange2 and if you know of breeders of these crosses that fully health test their breeding stock for all genetic conditions relevant to each of the parents it would be really helpful if you could share that information. I have to admit I've never came across any but I'm clearly missing something, great idea though, well done for thinking of it!

If anybody wants a designer breed you can visit my website....Only joking.

All I'm getting at is you cant just go around bombarding anyone that has a mix breed dog asking about hip scoring and eye tests all because the dogs a cross.

Secondly I never metioned anything about paying money for one of these crosses, All i was saying if somebody wanted one and got it off a pound or somebody that maybe had an accident with 2 family pets that there is nothing wrong with having one!

Maybe I got the OP wrong - I thought he was just bombarding the dog owner for wanting a designer breed when really the OP was getting at puppy farms - my apoligies!

Shanao

Oranage2 wrote: »

If anybody wants a designer breed you can visit my website....Only joking.

All I'm getting at is you cant just go around bombarding anyone that has a mix breed dog asking about hip scoring and eye tests all because the dogs a cross.

Secondly I never metioned anything about paying money for one of these crosses, All i was saying if somebody wanted one and got it off a pound or somebody that maybe had an accident with 2 family pets that there is nothing wrong with having one!

Maybe I got the OP wrong - I thought he was just bombarding the dog owner for wanting a designer breed when really the OP was getting at puppy farms - my apoligies!

My problem with Designer breeds has nothing to do with pound dogs or family pets having an accident, it is the people willingly breeding them and making money off it. As i said, the woman i was talking to bought a cavalier/bichon mix because it would be 'hypoallergenic' which couldn't be further from the truth.

pokertalk

theghost wrote: »

Maybe it's time to go back to calling crossbreeds mongrels. I gave up after a woman asked me what breed my eldest was and I told her she was a labrador collie cross. She replied "oh...a collidor". I've now taken to describing her when asked as "a mongrel...one parent was a collie and the other was a labrador" and the other two as "mongrels...jack russels crossed with God knows what". If people started calling their crossbreeds mongrels this craze for designer crossbreeds might hopefully stop.

once there is demand there will always be these mongtrepreneurs selling them once there is enough fools to buy them

ISDW

Oranage2 wrote: »

If anybody wants a designer breed you can visit my website....Only joking.

All I'm getting at is you cant just go around bombarding anyone that has a mix breed dog asking about hip scoring and eye tests all because the dogs a cross.

Secondly I never metioned anything about paying money for one of these crosses, All i was saying if somebody wanted one and got it off a pound or somebody that maybe had an accident with 2 family pets that there is nothing wrong with having one!

Maybe I got the OP wrong - I thought he was just bombarding the dog owner for wanting a designer breed when really the OP was getting at puppy farms - my apoligies!

I don't think anyone has any problems with crossbreeds. Crossbreeds are not the same as designer breeds. They aren't given stupid made up names and sold to people for stupid amounts of money - thats what the designer breeds are for:D

Evac105

pokertalk wrote: »

once there is demand there will always be these mongtrepreneurs selling them once there is enough fools to buy them

Not entirely sure you're interested in dialogue rather then berating people with that comment

On the subject of paying for dogs - why pay for any by that logic? I've known a breeder of the 'Dulux' dogs (yes, yes OES) for most of my life, he was an old friend of my father and visited us regularly from when we were kids. He used to bring a couple of pups he had along if a litter was up at the time. We loved them of course and were constantly badgering him to give us one. Even then pure bred dogs were worth a pretty penny and he refused, saying that the pups were worth too much to him to give them away. Bare in mind that this is 30 years ago - long before most breeders regularly health checked dogs beyond bringing them to the vets every so often for a check up or when they were ill.

I point this out so we don't muddy the waters with talk or hip/heart/eye scores - long before those became so prevalent pure bred dogs were still a chunk of change to buy.

So the question of paying for a dog becomes consummate with it's worth. From the perspective of some people a dogs breeding or looks grant it a worth, for others (though I don't agree with their priorities) the dogs ability to fit in a handbag gives it a certain worth. So, what is your dog worth to you? My own cross is worth a lot more then the ~80-100 euro I paid for him in my opinion. If I was insuring to replace I'd probably value him at thousands, because that's his worth is to me. For someone else, who doesn't know my wonderful crazy mutt to consider him worthless due to his breeding (or lack of it) feels quite arrogant and dismissive. Please forgive me if I'm feeling quite defensive towards his mongrel ass after reading some of the previous comments.


Couple of facts:
The genetic difference between all canines (inc wolves and wild dogs) is less then 0.5%.
Samoyeds are one of the oldest dog breeds and still they're only around for 3000 of the 3 million years of canine history. The vast majority of modern breeds were codified after the foundation of the Kennel Club in 1874.
Interestingly the Kennel Club was an offshoot of the Human Eugenics movement, with the same goals but applied to dogs rather then humans.

Zapperzy

Evac105 wrote: »

One of my current dogs is a 'designer dog' or a cross as I call him (lab/boxer). His mother was a chocolate lab that a farmer in Wicklow owned, his father was a brindle boxer that his neighbour owned. While farmers were involved I believe their main interest was sheep, not puppies. Thankfully my pet has been relatively trouble free and is a well adjusted, energetic, cynical little puppy. Not that that's anything but anecdotal evidence obviously.

I've spoken with three different vets so far regarding the advantages of cross breeding versus pure breeding. I don't know really whether their qualifications make them experts in this but I'm assuming it means they should know more then me. 2 of 3 said that cross breeding from a health perspective is advantageous, the third felt it made only a minor, if any, difference. So, different small pet vets in the same practice don't even agree - two of whom had spent the time to get their PhD's in small animal care and the three have 40+ years of experience between them. Pardon me if I'll continue to believe that since they're disagreeing that unless someone has more specialised training then them that they cannot speak with any surety on this matter - it's an opinion not a fact.

With all respect to vets all are certainly not experts on dog breeding my neighbouring vet was considering breeding her boxer bitch with no health tests done, the dog had a questionable temperment (went for my dog on two occasions) and she certainly was not exactly a very responsible owner and used to allow the dog to roam around an estate unnaccompanied sh**ting in people's gardens where there was a lot of young children living. Don't know if she ever did get around to it, the dog disapeared once the baby arrived. :rolleyes:

Oranage2 wrote: »

If anybody wants a designer breed you can visit my website....Only joking.

All I'm getting at is you cant just go around bombarding anyone that has a mix breed dog asking about hip scoring and eye tests all because the dogs a cross.

Secondly I never metioned anything about paying money for one of these crosses, All i was saying if somebody wanted one and got it off a pound or somebody that maybe had an accident with 2 family pets that there is nothing wrong with having one!

Maybe I got the OP wrong - I thought he was just bombarding the dog owner for wanting a designer breed when really the OP was getting at puppy farms - my apoligies!

Nope Iv nothing against people owning crosses (Iv one myself) so long as they do not shell out hundreds for them just because it has a fancy name, if it's a pound or rescue dog or a genuine woops litter then I have no problem whatsoever with people going out and getting one of these, it's the deliberate crossing of breeds for money that I'm against. Apologies for going off on you in my last post if this is what you meant.

ISDW

Zapperzy wrote: »

With all respect to vets all are certainly not experts on dog breeding my neighbouring vet was considering breeding her boxer bitch with no health tests done, the dog had a questionable temperment (went for my dog on two occasions) and she certainly was not exactly a very responsible owner and used to allow the dog to roam around an estate unnaccompanied sh**ting in people's gardens where there was a lot of young children living. Don't know if she ever did get around to it, the dog disapeared once the baby arrived. :rolleyes:

Ooh, I think I know that vet.

Zapperzy

ISDW wrote: »

Ooh, I think I know that vet.

Haha yes you probably do!

Tranceypoo

I'm a total dog snob, I have a pedigree 'Staffrador' and a pedigree 'Bollie' (or perhaps the term is 'Coxer' I'm not sure) and they are perfect specimens of these well known, highly sought after breeds.....:rolleyes:

Wedgie

I have a Whipprador, and he's a rescue.

Bonus time.

tk123

I'll take your story and raise it.

Air side pet shop the other week
"Daddy where are the doggies"
"They don't have dogs here"
"Where will we get the dog then?"
"At the dog farm!"

The Sweeper

I don't have a problem with people wanting a pedigree dog, so I don't have a problem with ethical, responsible dog breeding.

However as long as we continue to euthanise quite literally tens of thousands of healthy, viable animals with perfectly reasonable temperaments in our pounds and shelters every year, I think breeding non-pedigree dogs without a licence should be illegal.

It's disgusting. It's wasteful. It's treating animals like trinkets, like landfill, like decorations.

Every Backyard-Bred small white fluffy that goes to a home, regardless of whether or not it's as healthy as an ox, occupies that space for say 10 years. That's a space that a cute, healthy, viable, sweet tempered dog on death row in the pound could have occupied.

I don't have a problem with mongrels - there are plenty of 'oops' litters every year - litters of pups where someone didn't get their bitch neutered early enough and she got knocked up; litters had through ignorance where someone believes the bitch should have one season before being neutered and she gets pregnant; litters where someone who's against neutering their animals for whatever reason isn't vigilant enough one season and ends up with a litter of pups.

The problem is when some opportunistic bastard realised they could make money off an oops litter - wow, these are cute, I bet someone will give me a couple of hundred euro for them... Puppy farmers have capitalised on it in the most obnoxious way, but back yard breeders aren't without guilt in this - their pups may live in better conditions than on large-scale puppy factories, but they're still performing unethically and without the best interests of the bitch and her pups at heart. She'll still have too many litters, and the pups will still be rehomed too early, and it's still a bloody mess.

Dog breeding should be left to registered breeders with a vested interest in the improvement of the breed, both for appearance and in consideration of the genetic health of the dog.

nudag

I would prefer to have my labradoodle than some poor inbred pedigree like a bulldog.

I spent 6 months looking for a "breeder" who hip, eye and elbow scored her dogs. I waited another 4 months til there was a pup available. I was in weekly contact with the "breeder" who was just great and answered every question I had.

I agree there are a lot of people out there trying to make a quick buck, but they continue to exist cause of people lack of cop on and not doing any research! A friend got a king Charles about a year ago. I told him I was looking for a labradoodle but was waiting to find the right dog who's parents were tested for hip, eye and elbows. He hadn't a clue what I was talking about!

This government need to crack down on byb big time

john t

We purchase our dog/ family pet because the pup or our kids click on sight. Designer breeds do not exist in real world only when people compliment on a persons dog as a designer breed, we shoud let people own their dog without passing comment... Once dog is cared for the by owner and dog is happpy there should be no problem....