July 16, Stage 14: Saint-Gaudens - Plateau de Beille 168km

jiffybag

The French , great bunch of lads!
I was attempting to be sarcastic .

RobFowl

FDJ Managed by Mark Madiot (remember his dismissal of Kimmage !)
Europcar Managed by Jean-Rene Bernadeau ("doping controls are a Breach of the right to work")
Cofidis DS Eric Boyer seems ok but Assistant DS Didier Rous of Festina and organised doping fame
AG2R is the successor team to Casino And the manager also managed Vino in the early stages of his career as well as Paschal Richard (google his coma and the causes of it ).

Difficult to find a team without dodgy DS's at some level but don't be fooled that the French are that much better than the rest.

Diarmuid

RobFowl wrote: »

By the French !!

and by the UCI's suspicious list. For what it's worth

thereturn

In fairness I think French are regarded by people iike Kimmage as generally having much better attitude to doping to nations like Spain and Italy.
Easy to look at various DS' and sling mud. Look at scores of suspicion last year and French teams were by and large amongst the lowest ranked. Someone like Vaughters doesn't have an entirely clean past but I don't think anyone would doubt his sincerity to a clean sport now.

Colonialboy

The Leopard Trek domestiques and especially Jens Voight must be pissed off ... they buried them selves today and Voight picked himself up from two crashes ..they set a high temp to the foot of the hill to tire everyone and then the Schleks decide not to bother making a decent attack...

sonnky

Nico needs to get tougher on himself. Mentally is he tough enough? Physically I think he has it and he certainly has a bit of class.He wastes his energy by riding in the wind, when his team mates are offerin protection. I know its not easy to make a pro cyclist but this is just my opinion.

RobFowl

thereturn wrote: »

In fairness I think French are regarded by people iike Kimmage as generally having much better attitude to doping to nations like Spain and Italy.

TBF I know Heroin addicts with a healthier attitude to doping than some Spanish teams :rolleyes:
Portuguese teams actually have to worst reputations (and statistically too).

Kimmage hasn't said much about the French teams at all AFAIK but has seemed impressed by Garmin and Vaughters attitude.

There are teams with an anti doping ethos but generalising by countries is usually not accurate.

petethedrummer

There will probably be comparisons of Voecklers time between today and 2004 on sports science. So we can judge then if he has under gone a miraculous change as a rider.

Today it looked to me like most of the big names rode so as not to cross into the red too much because they can't dope to the gills. Voeckler looked to be the only one doing this. He will pay the most for it.

Great post on the cyclingnews:

To be fair, they were all beaten by a guy who has probably only seen mountains on postcards prior to today.
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=605632&postcount=79

JacksonHeightsOwn

sonnky wrote: »

Nico needs to get tougher on himself. Mentally is he tough enough? Physically I think he has it and he certainly has a bit of class.He wastes his energy by riding in the wind, when his team mates are offerin protection. I know its not easy to make a pro cyclist but this is just my opinion.

i think the same

i hope its not blind faith because he's irish, but i think he's a better rider than he's showing

im still of the thinking that he'd have been better off moving to Sky last summer when there was murmurs. could you imagine it, with Wiggo after crashing, Roche would have had their full support in this tour, plus he'd even have himself a TT bike!!!!

thereturn

Thomas Voeckler (Europcar) has survived through the Pyrenees in the yellow jersey, just as he did in 2004. And this time he finished with the big favourites of the race who carefully marked each other, allowing Jelle Vanendert (Omega Pharma-Lotto) to win the stage.

Voeckler punched the air as he crossed the line, just as he did in 2004 when he managed to hold off Lance Armstrong.

“It’s difficult to compare with the equivalent stage seven years ago”, Voeckler commented after the finish. “I’ve managed to follow the favourites but I suffered a lot. I wasn’t interested in analysing the strength of each favourite. My goal was to save my yellow jersey but I thought it would be a question of a couple of seconds. I didn’t expect to finish with the favourites.”

Voeckler was convinced that he wouldn’t be able to stay at the top of the GC after the three tough Pyrenean stages.

“I’m really surprised. My hopes had grown in the last two days, I was less defeatist than before stage 12 to Luz Ardiden,” he said.

“When I saw how windy it was in the valley prior to climbing to the Plateau de Beille, I thought my chance would be to hide from the wind as much as I could. I was hoping that attacks by the favourites wouldn’t last too long because if they were prolonged, I wouldn’t have been able to follow. The race ended up being very favourable for me. The leaders neutralized each other after every acceleration and I was always able to breathe and get back on the wheels.”

Voeckler's performance bettered his result of 2004 when he finished 13th on stage 13 at Plateau de Beille. This time he finished seventh. Seven years ago, he crossed the line 4:42 behind Lance Armstrong, who out sprinted Ivan Basso. Voeckler hung onto the lead by just 22 seconds and punched his first in the air as if he had won the stage.

“I have probably improved since 2004”, Voeckler pointed out. “This year, I have the best legs of my career, but if I’d had the same legs as today in 2004, I still wouldn’t have been able to follow Armstrong and Basso.”

The main contenders rode two minutes slower than Armstrong did in 2004 and where three minutes slower than the record set by Marco Pantani.

“Since I turned pro in 2001, things are getting better and better in cycling,” Voeckler said, not afraid to speak his mind and hint that he thinks the sport is cleaner.

“In the past few years, I’ve learned not to pay attention to what the other riders are doing but I do think the people who run cycling are working in the right direction.”

Follow Cyclingnews on Twitter for the very latest coverage of events taking place in the cycling world -

thereturn

RobFowl wrote: »

TBF I know Heroin addicts with a healthier attitude to doping than some Spanish teams :rolleyes:
Portuguese teams actually have to worst reputations (and statistically too).

Kimmage hasn't said much about the French teams at all AFAIK but has seemed impressed by Garmin and Vaughters attitude.

There are teams with an anti doping ethos but generalising by countries is usually not accurate.

Kimmage was on 'Off The Ball' last year and commented how French riders/teams doing better was indicator of cleaner team. I take your point and it is a fair one but I'd say in this instance my personal opinion is that generalising by countries gives us a fair indicator and generalising by teams gives us a very good indicator.

Slideshowbob

chrisbonnie wrote: »

i think the same

i hope its not blind faith because he's irish, but i think he's a better rider than he's showing

im still of the thinking that he'd have been better off moving to Sky last summer when there was murmurs. could you imagine it, with Wiggo after crashing, Roche would have had their full support in this tour, plus he'd even have himself a TT bike!!!!

He had a full team's support this race with AG2R no?

And he got a TT bike sorted for training a few months back no?

To be honest if you look at his physique he is quite broad and stocky in comparison to pure climbers. Maybe he was excelling for his ability in past Tours and now things are balancing out!?

His best chances for success I think from here on are on getting into breaks in flatter stages and going for stage wins to glitter his career.

Proxima Centauri

For me, the below is reason enough to trust a French rider in a French team.

Also, reading David Millers book at the moment and it seems the French public wouldn't have the tolerance for any French rider doping, their career would be over instantly and their lives wrecked.

"Members of Parliament adopted a new law which penalizes the possession and trafficking of doping products in sport with prison sentences and fines. Under the new measures offenders will receive up of five years in jail and a 75,000-euro fine, when it relates to drug trafficking, explained French Minister for Sport Bernard Laporte.
The penalty will be increased to seven years in prison and a fine of 150,000 euros when the offence is committed as part of an organized group or against a minor.
The sentence will comprise a year in prison and a 3,750-euro fine when the offence is committed by a sports person for his personal use."

JacksonHeightsOwn

Slideshowbob wrote: »

He had a full team's support this race with AG2R no?

And he got a TT bike sorted for training a few months back no?

To be honest if you look at his physique he is quite broad and stocky in comparison to pure climbers. Maybe he was excelling for his ability in past Tours and now things are balancing out!?

His best chances for success I think from here on are on getting into breaks in flatter stages and going for stage wins to glitter his career.

compare their support to say the support that Leopard Trek give the Schlecks, BMC give Evans or Ligugas give to Basso, there's support, then theres the level them guys give you

did you see yesterdays stage, i think it was the summit of the second to last climb of the day, Voeckler was taking his gillet off and folded it to then put it in his back pocket, without even being asked, one of his domestiques reached out and took it off Voeckler for him, now i know Tommy is in yellow, but could you imagine any AG2R guys doing that for Roche?

ROK ON

chrisbonnie wrote: »

i think the same

i hope its not blind faith because he's irish, but i think he's a better rider than he's showing

I disagree completely.
Of the team leaders and senior riders in the Pro Teams (and at the top pro level) he is well below par.
His palmares is non existent. He is badly managed and advised IMHO.

When this tour is complete fans, agents, managers, sports journalists and sponsors will be talking of Voeckler, the winner (Evans or Contador IMO), Hushovd, Cav, Thor, Gilbert, Hoogerland, etc etc.
No one is interested in someone who aspires to be tenth without ever winning anything.
Roche needs to completely refocus and rebuild himself as a serious contender for 3 - 5 day tours. peak for those races not the tour. Ride it opportunistically with an aim to win stages thru late breakaways. If it happens week and good if not, then he tried.

When you think about it, with20 teams. An ambition of a team leader to place tenth is derisable.

RobFowl

ROK ON wrote: »

I disagree completely.
Of the team leaders and senior riders in the Pro Teams (and at the top pro level) he is well below par.
His palmares is non existent. He is badly managed and advised IMHO.

When this tour is complete fans, agents, managers, sports journalists and sponsors will be talking of Voeckler, the winner (Evans or Contador IMO), Hushovd, Cav, Thor, Gilbert, Hoogerland, etc etc.
No one is interested in someone who aspires to be tenth without ever winning anything.
Roche needs to completely refocus and rebuild himself as a serious contender for 3 - 5 day tours. peak for those races not the tour. Ride it opportunistically with an aim to win stages thru late breakaways. If it happens week and good if not, then he tried.

When you think about it, with20 teams. An ambition of a team leader to place tenth is derisable.

+1 completely.
Most people remember a stage winner but rarely recall the lower levels of the top ten on GC.

themandan6611

RobFowl wrote: »

+1 completely.
Most people remember a stage winner but rarely recall the lower levels of the top ten on GC.

++1 he is too pacifist a cyclist, very rare do you see him attack, trying to drift into top 10 GC a hero does not make

Columbia

I agree, I think Nico needs to reconsider his ambitions for these stage races. He's only ever actually finished inside the top 12 of a major stage race once, at the Vuelta last year. I think he has the attributes to be a very good rider for the breakaways, and can find himself in jerseys that way.

I believe he has been edged into the team leader role by Biondi/Lavenu, despite not being particularly cut out for it, because AG2R lack better personnel.

Maybe another couple of bad days in the Alps would do him a lot of good.

PinkFly

and what happened Cavendish?? 164th today :eek:

Slideshowbob

chrisbonnie wrote: »

compare their support to say the support that Leopard Trek give the Schlecks, BMC give Evans or Ligugas give to Basso, there's support, then theres the level them guys give you

did you see yesterdays stage, i think it was the summit of the second to last climb of the day, Voeckler was taking his gillet off and folded it to then put it in his back pocket, without even being asked, one of his domestiques reached out and took it off Voeckler for him, now i know Tommy is in yellow, but could you imagine any AG2R guys doing that for Roche?

Roche hasnt earned a place as a top GC rider yet on a top team, as I said b4, wrong physique anyway. Maybe he was fed too well by Lydia in his teenage years when he dabbled with rugby in Blackrock College.

Tommy had earned that yellow and wasnt regarded as a GC rider previously.

John.Icy

Morrisseeee wrote: »

Pity about Nico, but he's not a climber.

Again, I'll bring up the Vuelta last year. He climbed with the best for pretty much the whole tour. It was his best form. He is off form at the moment, so you can't make judgements about what he is and isn't unless he's riding his best.


Ant to others...what's wrong with Roche going for a top ten in the TDF. He's nearly gone past the stage where he's going to be in breakaways that are allowed stay all the way to the line with minutes in spare. So unless he wants to throw away twenty minutes in the hope he can win a stage, there isn't alot he can do. Attacks he makes on climbs would be reeled in by the power if the big teams easily.

I'm perfectly happy watching Roche fight it out in the mountains, look at the Vuelta last year, when Roche would be in the last 6/7 riders left on the climbs, it was a treat to watch, and he attacked several times. Seeing the Irish flag being represented in the top 10 of GC at a grand tour is great. It means at that moment, your one of the top ten elite riders in the world, out of hundreds of others.

I much raher see Roche high up in the GC, than being an hour behind with a stage victory to his name. Some people mightn't remember him for being tenth in the TDF, but I will.

Morrisseeee

Voeckler a contender > says Armstrong



LOL at the image used for this article

TheBlaaMan

Morrisseeee wrote: »

Voeckler a contender > says Armstrong

LOL at the image used for this article

Admiration from Armstrong..........now that's what Tommy really needs at this point - NOT. :rolleyes:

GT_TDI_150

tought Evans looked comfortable yesterday, would he make up the differents to voeckler in the TT to take yellow?

RobFowl

GT_TDI_150 wrote: »

tought Evans looked comfortable yesterday, would he make up the differents to voeckler in the TT to take yellow?

On the same TT course in the Dauphine he beat him by 1:55. Suspect it'll be closer but I also expect Vockler to lose some time on one of the mountain stages.
Riding out of his skin so far though.
If he were American L'Equipe would be saying he was "from another planet".....

Rovi

PinkFly wrote: »

and what happened Cavendish?? 164th today :eek:

He came in on the 'bus', along with 40-50 others on or about the same time.
Not unexpected or surprising, considering he's a specialist sprinter.

mgmt

TheBlaaMan wrote: »

Admiration from Armstrong..........now that's what Tommy really needs at this point - NOT. :rolleyes:

I don't think Armstrong would have liked this comment by Tommy:

The Frenchman noticed things had changed since that time.

"On today's form, I would not have been able to follow Armstrong or Basso in 2004," he told a news conference.

"Even if it's hard to compare, I think that things have been improving in cycling since I turned professional."

AG2R

Frank and Andy saying Frank was hurting yesterday

Rovi

Remember Ten Dam's faceplant on one of the descents?:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ten-dam-continues-in-the-tour-de-france

Ten Dam continues in the Tour de France
By: Cycling News
Published: July 17, 12:04,
Updated: July 17, 12:17

Rabobank back in the saddle despite facial injuries

The Rabobank team management has described Laurens ten Dam as “hard as rock” after he started the 15th stage of the Tour de France despite crashing and hurting his face in a high-speed crash during Saturday's stage to Plateau de Beille.

The 30-year-old finished Saturday's stage with a bloodied bandage wrapped around his head and nose. Last night he tweeted: “No fractures. Only future scars.”

On Sunday morning he compared his eight stitches to the 33 received by Johnny Hoogerland, saying: “Start. Still 25 fewer than Johnny.....”

Luuc Eisenga, the Rabobank communications manager posted a tweet with a quote from ten Dam saying: "You don't quit the Tour because of a thick lip."

Ten Dam crashed on the descent of the Col d'Agnes, doing a half-somersault over his handlebars to land face first in a ditch. He was taken to hospital after the finish, where it was found he had no fractures, only deep gashes to his nose and abrasions on his hands and back.

Despite all of that, he had a good night's sleep, the Rabobank team said, and after consultation with the medical staff and team management, it was decided that ten Dam would be allowed to start Sunday's stage. The team pointed out that they are monitoring his condition closely and will pull out of the race if necessary.

Ouchy!

bertiecont

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrGWczbwDRY