Young Travellers on Horses

Blatter

Was just driving along a main road around an hour ago and saw two very young travellers on a cart with a horse. They looked no younger than 10 or 11. They were whipping the life out of the horse. They must have leathered the poor animal 12-15 times, trying to force it to move at top speed. I was absolutely disgusted. I pulled in around 50 yards ahead if them and stopped them. I gave them a bollicking of the highest order and explained to them how much torture they were putting the horse through.

At first they were acting as if they didn't care, giving a bit of cheek but they eventually agreed to stop whipping the horse constantly.

I am not starting this thread with the intention of traveller bashing but to find out the laws regarding children on a horse and cart. It surely can't be legal but I often see it and nothing seems to be done about it.

It's a disgrace. Not only is it animal cruelty, it's also dangerous for children so young to be allowed roam main roads in this fashion.

Kazzehh

IIRC they need to be 16 years old and are licenced by the carraige office.

jimthemental

I was just thinking about this the other day, for most vehicle drawn trailers you need a certificate of road worthiness. Is this the case for horse drawn carts and Sulky Racers. The cops are cracking down a lot on learner drivers but these races and non indicating carts are as much of a nuisance and there is no guarantee of the animal being fairly treated either.

prinz

There should be a licensing system brought in (if there isn't one already) for the horse and carriage operators (tourist rides, wedding carriages etc).

Anyone else riding a horse and trap/cart on the main roads, especially kids, without a license for it should have the cart and horse confiscated on the spot. It's ridiculously dangerous for other road users, themselves and the animals.

Professey Chin

Seen them race and crash the horse & trap on the outer ring road in waterford last year. Poor horse was in bits from it. Genuinely hope the fcukers were shot

My name is URL

Animal abuse is animal abuse. Of course it isn't legal.. but then, when has that ever stopped some travellers from disregarding the law?

You could always report them but don't count on anything being done

the groutch

OP, I don't think the words TRAVELLER and LEGAL exactly go hand in hand

Gandalph

Most travellers treat the horses like **** and shouldnt be premitted to have any, especially in the city centre. Makes me sick

Chuck Stone

*Bash traveller children for hitting horse*

Claims not to be bashing travellers but asking about the laws regarding children and horses.

*proceeds to ask question as if the traveller bashing hadn't been said*

Conflicting message engenders cognitive dissonace in readers.


http://www.gifbin.com/982581



.

dee.

Where I live, travellers don't have to follow the law. Guards/animal welfare/etc don't want to get involved in anything with them. There's a field behind my house and they always leave their horses/ponies in there, the animals are all obviously unhealthy and not being cared for, then they come along and start beating them and laughing about it. It breaks my heart.

wild_cat

Nothing disgusts me more to see anyone running a horse at high speed on tarmac.

Be it the hunt or someone with a trap.

wild_cat

dee. wrote: »

Where I live, travellers don't have to follow the law. Guards/animal welfare/etc don't want to get involved in anything with them. There's a field behind my house and they always leave their horses/ponies in there, the animals are all obviously unhealthy and not being cared for, then they come along and start beating them and laughing about it. It breaks my heart.

You'd be afraid to say something as well.....

I know I would. I questioned something before and was met with

"Are you the gaurds? Are you the guards?... Well get the **** away then".

tallaghtmick

If you moan about travellers doing what travellers do this guy comes and annoys ye http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5219/5509170014_ca84655f7a.jpg

jimthemental

tallaghtmick wrote: »

If you moan about travellers doing what travellers do this guy comes and annoys ye http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5219/5509170014_ca84655f7a.jpg

****ing Colin Farrell, what's his problem.

prinz

Chuck Stone wrote: »

*Bash traveller children for hitting horse*

If I said I'd just seen my neighbour kicking his dog around the street would that be Dub bashing?

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Claims not to be bashing travellers but asking about the laws regarding children and horses.

Laws that apply to everyone. Where is the traveller bashing in that question?

Chuck Stone wrote: »

*proceeds to ask question as if the traveller bashing hadn't been said*
.

Which part of it was traveller bashing?

dee.

wild_cat wrote: »

You'd be afraid to say something as well.....

I know I would. I questioned something before and was met with

"Are you the gaurds? Are you the guards?... Well get the **** away then".

Oh I really would be. It breaks my heart but they know where I live and I'm sure they'd have no problem making my life a living hell.

Dyr

My name is URL wrote: »

Animal abuse is animal abuse.

Ah cmon, its part of their culture.

It's also part of our culture too.

few cans?

Jesus i am so sick of these stupid do gooders going on about 'traveller bashing'.
There would be no bashing in the first place if they just abided by laws like the rest of us.
Discrimination my fcuking ar5e. If Joe Blogz mistreats an animal he's a heartless bastard and thats grand. IF i call Johnny Traveller a heartless bastard than im a traveller basher?
It is plain fact that many (not all) travellers have no regard for the law. And why would they? law is afriad of them! and its people who sit on their high horses going on about discrimination who make it harder for everyone else! its easy to sit in the leafy suburbs of dublin and talk about discrimination but try living in an area where thievary is rampant! My parents are on watch every night from them, trying to come in and steal things from their yard. It is nothing to do with bashing travellers. Its particular people doing particular things!

So can we please continue discussion without any of these good samaritans (who have probably never encountered a member of the travelling community at all in their life) talking absolute sh1te. Its time people started telling things as it is

Chuck Stone

prinz wrote: »

If I said I'd just seen my neighbour kicking his dog around the street would that be Dub bashing?

If you'd have underscored the fact that he was a Dub and repeatedly used emotive language to magnify how the dog was abused (Whipped, leathered, forced) and made it patently clear that you weren't a Dub?

Why then yes, I think it could oh-so-easily be viewed as a bit of Dub bashing.

Laws that apply to everyone. Where is the traveller bashing in that question?

There is no traveller bashing in that question. I never claimed there was.

prinz

Chuck Stone wrote: »

If you'd have underscored the fact that he was a Dub....

Dear lord.

Chuck Stone wrote: »

and repeatedly used emotive language to magnify how the dog was abused (Whipped, leathered, forced)....

LOL. Yes how dare some use 'emotive' language.

Chuck Stone wrote: »

and made it patently clear that you weren't a Dub?....

Did the OP make it patently clear that they aren't a traveller themselves? I don't see it, perhaps you could point that bit out?

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Why then yes, I think it could oh-so-easily be viewed as a bit of Dub bashing..

Straws, no good for clutching.

Chuck Stone

few cans? wrote: »

So can we please continue discussion without any of these good samaritans (who have probably never encountered a member of the travelling community at all in their life) talking absolute sh1te. Its time people started telling things as it is

I've worked with Travellers in the past so have some first hand experience of the problems which surround the Travelling community.

God knows what type of violence those children have been exposed to. Domestic violence is a considerable problem in the travelling community.

Chuck Stone

prinz wrote: »

Dear lord.



LOL. Yes how dare some use 'emotive' language.



Did the OP make it patently clear that they aren't a traveller themselves? I don't see it, perhaps you could point that bit out?



Straws, no good for clutching.

If you couldn't have predicted the reception of this thread in AH then I seriously question your judgement.

You want this to be about you and me and I'm flattered and all but no.. just no.

prinz

Chuck Stone wrote: »

God knows what type of violence those children have been exposed to. Domestic violence is a considerable problem in the travelling community.

..and? All the more reason to crack down on them abusing animals. You don't sit by and watch someone abuse an animal because they might have been abused themselves.

Teyla Emmagan

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I've worked with Travellers in the past so have some first hand experience of the problems which surround the Travelling community.

God knows what type of violence those children have been exposed to. Domestic violence is a considerable problem in the travelling community.

That doesn't make it alright for them to beat their horses too.

prinz

Chuck Stone wrote: »

If you couldn't have predicted the reception of this thread in AH then I seriously question your judgement..

The thread was doing alright before your addition.

Chuck Stone wrote: »

You want this to be about you and me and I'm flattered and all but no.. just no.

You made it about yourself when you made some pre-emptive remarks and made accusations about other posters.

Chuck Stone

prinz wrote: »

The thread was doing alright before your addition.



You made it about yourself when you made some pre-emptive remarks and made accusations about other posters.

Ssshh now, there there.

Chuck Stone

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

That doesn't make it alright for them to beat their horses too.

I agree.

_feedback_

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I've worked with Travellers in the past so have some first hand experience of the problems which surround the Travelling community.

God knows what type of violence those children have been exposed to. Domestic violence is a considerable problem in the travelling community.

What has that got to do with someone questioning the legality of a couple of young lads out on the road with a horse?

It's a very valid question.

I think it is extremely dangerous, regardless of what age the person is.

The OP could go back and edit out every occurence of the word traveller, and we'll still all know who they are talking about, because nobody else feels the need use a horse like that anyomore. Further to that, nobody else would get away with it either.

few cans?

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I've worked with Travellers in the past so have some first hand experience of the problems which surround the Travelling community.

God knows what type of violence those children have been exposed to. Domestic violence is a considerable problem in the travelling community.

yet more problems. Its as if your saying 'ah sure baytin your children is something the travellers do so its not their fault if they grow up to be thugs'
i dont care if your a traveller or royalty this is simply not on. everyone bleeds the same way.

Chuck Stone

elviscostello wrote: »

What has that got to do with someone questioning the legality of a couple of young lads out on the road with a horse?

Really? Are you really oblivious to the tone in the OP?

I think it is extremely dangerous, regardless of what age the person is.

Me too.

Green Back

Chuck Stone wrote: »

God knows what type of violence those children have been exposed to. Domestic violence is a considerable problem in the travelling community.

Surely if that cycle of violence is to be broken it needs to be highlighted.
People who show violent tendencies to animals are also more disposed to violence against humans.

_feedback_

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Really? Are you really oblivious to the tone in the OP?

I must be. What do you see that I am missing?

Chuck Stone

few cans? wrote: »

yet more problems. Its as if your saying 'ah sure baytin your children is something the travellers do so its not their fault if they grow up to be thugs'

No Sir. I see the hitting of children as assault. Nothing less.

i dont care if your a traveller or royalty this is simply not on. everyone bleeds the same way.

Again, I agree with you that domestic violence is a terrible thing. No arguments there.

Chuck Stone

elviscostello wrote: »

I must be. What do you see that I am missing?

If you were concerned about animal and child welfare, now really really concerned and you wanted to ask a legal question on the large and resourceful website that is boards.ie would you have approached it the same way? With the same emotive language? On AH?

Now remember your concern is for animal welfare and child safety.

Is this how you would go about educating yourself on these issues?

On A.H.?

C'mon man.

hatz7

The horse and cart is how the travellers roll, best of luck to them, ye can't take them off the road, it just wouldn't seem right, bad conocktations.

SEPT 23 1989

Another fine contribution to Irish society by that "ethnic group":rolleyes:

Cat Melodeon

few cans? wrote: »

Jesus i am so sick of these stupid do gooders going on about 'traveller bashing'.
There would be no bashing in the first place if they just abided by laws like the rest of us.

Yeah because no settled person has ever broken the law or abused an animal. Being against broad sweeping prejudiced comments does not equate to being a 'do gooder'.

few cans? wrote: »

Its time people started telling things as it is.

And one of those things is that no matter what one individual Traveller gets up to, the whole Pavee community is accused of being guilty of the same. Why don't you apply the same logic to the rest of society? We'd all be animal abusing, wife-beating, child-molesting, bank-robbing, drug-dealing scum, whether we're Travellers or settled.

ANYONE who beats an animal deserves to be punished, whether they are settled or Traveller. Trying to get the authorities to prosecute ANYONE of animal abuse is next to impossible, regardless of who the abuser is. There simply aren't the resources in place to investigate and follow up investigations with prosecutions. Abuse shouldn't happen in the first place and anyone who abuses an animal is a scumbag in my book, but there is absolutely no need to start going on about Travellers being particularly guilty of this particular crime when it's more than Travellers who are at it.

few cans?

Just want to mention i have no problem with your personal views. What really grinds my gears is people lashing out at people about 'traveller bashing' when they have absolutely no idea what they are talking about or what these people have been subjected to do. You seem fairly level headed.

For example, my parents have had so much trouble with travellers in the past that if anyone tried to tell them off for 'traveller bashing', it is very frustrating. Im sure you can understand that.

There is always children/ teenage traveller kids flying around the ring road in waterford on their horses and carts. really do be whipping the sh1te out of them. Many reports of the horses wandering around the roads at night, no supervision. A man was killed in waterford only a few weeks ago by crashing into a horse in the middle of the night, but i have no idea who owned the horse, it may not have been the travellers.

westendgirlie

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I've worked with Travellers in the past so have some first hand experience of the problems which surround the Travelling community.

God knows what type of violence those children have been exposed to. Domestic violence is a considerable problem in the travelling community.

Would you not contact social services with these issues so that the children can be removed from their violent families?

_feedback_

Chuck Stone wrote: »

If you were concerned about animal and child welfare, now really really concerned and you wanted to ask a legal question on the large and resourceful website that is boards.ie would you have approached it the same way? With the same emotive language? On AH?

Now remember your concern is for animal welfare and child safety.

Is this how you would go about educating yourself on these issues?

On Ah?

C'mon man.

Yeah, I see what you mean. I just don't see any problem with the tone of it. It raises a very valid question. Maybe it could have been posted in a better place.

Anyway, no matter where it is posted, or in what manner, I agree that it is dangerous and cruel. Why are horse and cart still allowed on main roads? There is no need for them anymore.

prinz

Chuck Stone wrote: »

With the same emotive language?

As a matter of interest what language would be acceptable as non-emotive when you are describing the physical abuse of an animal? What should the OP have said to describe the act?

Chuck Stone

Green Back wrote: »

Surely if that cycle of violence is to be broken it needs to be highlighted.

It certainly does (not just n the traveller community as you know).

People who show violent tendencies to animals are also more disposed to violence against humans.

Yep, and I think it can be the same reversed.

They focus on Traveller women as being people who can bring about change in their communities.

Traveller women are way easier to engage with when it comes to education and when you educate a woman you are storing it in her for her children and it will pay itself forward with far more potential than for men.

Also, when a Traveller woman is on the recieving end of of domestic violence she takes massive power into her hands by going to a womens refuge.

For Traveller men there is great shame when his wife leaves for the shelter because he kinda loses face in the community.

Things are changing slowly but they are changing.

few cans?

Cat Melodeon wrote: »

Yeah because no settled person has ever broken the law or abused an animal. Being against broad sweeping prejudiced comments does not equate to being a 'do gooder'.

jesus here we go again. I cannot stress enough that i am not talking about all travellers. I didnt mean all settled people are grand, what i meant is that travellers should be expected to follow the law and recieve the same treatment as the rest of us. Im not saying all settled people follow the law, but it seems we are more obligated to do so.
Ive had travellers try to sell my own equipment back to me! it even said my dads name on a chainsaw they half arsed tried to wipe off! and what did the guards say? 'nothing we can do about it. theres no talking to them'. you try tell me this is fair? if we go anywhere to complain about it, we're 'traveller bashing'

Cat Melodeon wrote: »

And one of those things is that no matter what one individual Traveller gets up to, the whole Pavee community is accused of being guilty of the same. Why don't you apply the same logic to the rest of society? We'd all be animal abusing, wife-beating, child-molesting, bank-robbing, drug-dealing scum, whether we're Travellers or settled.

this is exactly what im saying. the reason members of the travelling community get blamed is because IT IS TRAVELLERS doing these particular things. And i have never spoken to anybody who has accused the entire community. There is nobody painting the whole community with the same brush so will ye stop using that as a cop out.

Cat Melodeon wrote: »

ANYONE who beats an animal deserves to be punished, whether they are settled or Traveller. Trying to get the authorities to prosecute ANYONE of animal abuse is next to impossible, regardless of who the abuser is. There simply aren't the resources in place to investigate and follow up investigations with prosecutions.

aye this is true. fully agree

Cat Melodeon wrote: »

Abuse shouldn't happen in the first place and anyone who abuses an animal is a scumbag in my book, but there is absolutely no need to start going on about Travellers being particularly guilty of this particular crime when it's more than Travellers who are at it.

but in this PARTICULAR case it IS members of the travelling community! this is my point! if we see any settled people baytin cows or sheep we'll start a new thread! :P

Cat Melodeon

few cans? wrote: »

Just want to mention i have no problem with your personal views.

So relieved to hear that.

few cans? wrote: »

What really grinds my gears is people lashing out at people about 'traveller bashing' when they have absolutely no idea what they are talking about or what these people have been subjected to do. You seem fairly level headed.

For example, my parents have had so much trouble with travellers in the past that if anyone tried to tell them off for 'traveller bashing', it is very frustrating. Im sure you can understand that.

Presumably your parents have had problems with a particular group of people, not all of the 23,000 or so Travellers in the State? Take your venom out on those who cause you hassle, not the community at large, It is not fair to label an entire group of people based on your negative experiences of a few. If that were the case I would hate all Dublin people because I was mugged by a Dublin scrote a few years ago.

few cans? wrote: »

There is always children/ teenage traveller kids flying around the ring road in waterford on their horses and carts. really do be whipping the sh1te out of them. Many reports of the horses wandering around the roads at night, no supervision. A man was killed in waterford only a few weeks ago by crashing into a horse in the middle of the night, but i have no idea who owned the horse, it may not have been the travellers.

I'm not denying that there are problems with the way that some Travellers drive and generally treat their horses. But as you said, in all cases, it may not have been the Travellers. Many Travellers treat their horses very well - they are often their most valuable possession, particularly in the case of good trotters. The ISPCA in Cork have recorded a 40% increase in incidents of horse cruelty and neglect in the past 3 years that they attribute to the recession and to people (settled people) no longer being able to afford to keep the horses they bought when times were good. There is zero market for middling horses these days, many owners are simply abandoning their animals when times get tough.

Chuck Stone

prinz wrote: »

As a matter of interest what language would be acceptable as non-emotive when you are describing the physical abuse of an animal? What should the OP have said to describe the act?

Stop pretending to be dumb.

Cat Melodeon

few cans? wrote: »

jesus here we go again. I cannot stress enough that i am not talking about all travellers.

Then use the terms 'some Travellers' or 'a group of Travellers'. You use blanket language that accuses all Travellers, you do not differentiate and that is unfair.

prinz

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Stop pretending to be dumb.

It's a simple question no? You've referred to the 'emotive language' a couple of times now, it should be a straightforward matter to suggest a better less-emotive way to describe it.

few cans?

Cat Melodeon wrote: »

Then use the terms 'some Travellers' or 'a group of Travellers'. You use blanket language that accuses all Travellers, you do not differentiate and that is unfair.

fair enough, insert 'some' before the term 'travellers' in all my posts.

The main point im trying to make, is that in this particular case it is 2 members of the travelling commmunity (presumably along with their families or whatever) that are at fault and so should be treated as such. If it were a pair of lads from wexford we wouldnt have a thread about 'wexford bashing' and this is what really annoys me. Im sure you can understand that

Chuck Stone

westendgirlie wrote: »

Would you not contact social services with these issues so that the children can be removed from their violent families?

Not as a matter of course no. Children are only removed from their families under the most extreme circumstances.

Cat Melodeon

few cans? wrote: »

fair enough, insert 'some' before the term 'travellers' in all my posts.

The main point im trying to make, is that in this particular case it is 2 members of the travelling commmunity (presumably along with their families or whatever) that are at fault and so should be treated as such. If it were a pair of lads from wexford we wouldnt have a thread about 'wexford bashing' and this is what really annoys me. Im sure you can understand that

I'm pretty sure a hell of a lot of Wexford people would accuse you of Wexford-bashing if you came out with a statement like 'Wexford people abuse their animals' without qualifying it to read 'two Wexford people abused their animal'. The thread wouldn't have been derailed from the actual issue at hand - animal abuse - if biased language hadn't been used in the first place.

few cans?

Cat Melodeon wrote: »

I'm pretty sure a hell of a lot of Wexford people would accuse you of Wexford-bashing if you came out with a statement like 'Wexford people abuse their animals' without qualifying it to read 'two Wexford people abused their animal'. The thread wouldn't have been derailed from the actual issue at hand - animal abuse - if biased language hadn't been used in the first place.

Blatter wrote: »

Was just driving along a main road around an hour ago and saw two very young travellers on a cart with a horse. They looked no younger than 10 or 11.

i think he phrased in the exact same way you did