Fed up as cyclists as public enemy #1

blorg

Just a couple of pics I took of the German infrastructure, showing the good and the bad.

My favourite parts of the network were small farming roads rather than specifically constructed cycle tracks. I think these were restricted to motor vehicles other than tractors (which were themselves rare.

On the other hand, this was probably the most comically stupid German cycle path (note it is also a two-way shared use path.)

monument

smeedyova wrote: »

Here is an image of a typical bike path there, note that it is totally separated from traffic by the kerb:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/whetzky/3927543904/

smeedyova wrote: »

What's wrong with that?

That's a fairly poor example of a bicycle lane -- it would be seen a very poor design. In general Germany can be a very mixed bag and standards overall are below Dutch and Danish standards.

smeedyova wrote: »

Uff. I have enough. The reason that there are no bicycle lanes to speak of in this country is because most people have no experience of how things are done properly in other countries. Another reason is the low standards that many people here have and the "it'll do" attitude rather than "let's do this the best way we can." Even the cyclists on this forum seem to think that it is fine to cycle within a few centimetres of a moving bus...well, keep it that way...I know where I'll be cycling in comfort and safety, though

I have experience of cycling in Copenhagen, Berlin, Paris, and other cities and have researched cycle lanes in the Netherlands.

The example you gave shows that you don't get it.

I'd welcome Copenhagen-style bike lanes here on some of the main routes with heavy and sometimes faster traffic, but people like you need to start cycling now to add to the critical mass to justify such a reallocation of road space. Cycling here is already safe, the lanes would be [for] more comfort and to bypass congestion.

smeedyova wrote: »

Cramcycle: you're obviously not used to proper bicycle paths if you think it's okay, safe and acceptable for cyclists to weave in and out of traffic like that. A cyclist in Germany would be stopped by the police for cycling near traffic because it's so dangerous and here we're expected to!

It's clearly not as dangerous as you're making out -- the amount of people cycling is increasing and the small amount of accidents has decreased.

smeedyova

blorg wrote: »

Just a couple of pics I took of the German infrastructure, showing the good and the bad.

My favourite parts of the network were small farming roads rather than specifically constructed cycle tracks. I think these were restricted to motor vehicles other than tractors (which were themselves rare.

On the other hand, this was probably the most comically stupid German cycle path (note it is also a two-way shared use path.)

Those paths are to allow cyclists to WALK their bikes up or down steps, not CYCLE. How many steps in Dublin do you know of where there is such a provision?

galwaycyclist

blorg wrote: »

My favourite parts of the network were small farming roads rather than specifically constructed cycle tracks. I think these were restricted to motor vehicles other than tractors (which were themselves rare.

Yes this is one of the German features that Cyclist.ie wants replicated here. Its in the Cyclist.ie policy document.

H2.3 Routes for local traffic only
Figure: German plate creating
Residents/Cyclists-only street

In Germany and France, an established traffic reduction measure for local roads in both rural and urban areas is to prohibit any through traffic that does not have business there: in France, the ‘sauf riverains’ sign; in Germany, the ‘Anlieger frei’ and similar signage. This immediately eliminates rat runs without any physical re-engineering. The roads remain open to cyclists, who benefit from traffic-free routes that also provide short cuts unavailable to other commuters. In rural areas, these regulations permit the creation of extensive cycle routes where the only other traffic is local residents and farmers accessing their land. There is a need for similar “Residents/Agricultural traffic only” regulations in Ireland.

CramCycle

smeedyova wrote: »

Those paths are to allow cyclists to WALK their bikes up or down steps, not CYCLE. How many steps in Dublin do you know of where there is such a provision?

Are there many or any places where this would be necessary?

Doctor Bob

CramCycle wrote: »

Are there many or any places where this would be necessary?

Alternatively, can you think of any flights of steps that wouldn't be improved by putting ramps or running tracks for bike, pram or buggy wheels? Must they be 'necessary'? Is it not enough that it's a cycle-friendly adaptation of the urban realm?

Such a feature should be part of every flight of steps by default, unless there is a strong case for not doing it.

galwaycyclist

CramCycle wrote: »

Are there many or any places where this would be necessary?

Yes (at the risk of sounding smart) anywhere where there is a destination for cyclists accessible by steps.

In Galway, the city council put cycle paths on the Quincentenary bridge crossing the Corrib but provided no direct means of accessing them from the University campus on one side or the adjacent residential areas on the other side of the river.

The students themselves dug informal ramps into the embankments. Years later, the council came back, on one side of the river only, and put in steps but declined to provide any wheeling ramps for cyclists using the steps. Thus spending tax money to replace an informal arrangement with something to a lower level of service. A couple of years back, the Uni finally put in steps with wheeling ramps on their side.

HivemindXX

Doctor Bob wrote: »

Alternatively, can you think of any flights of steps that wouldn't be improved by putting ramps or running tracks for bike, pram or buggy wheels? Must they be 'necessary'? Is it not enough that it's a cycle-friendly adaptation of the urban realm?

Such a feature should be part of every flight of steps by default, unless there is a strong case for not doing it.

In general steps are used where the incline is too steep for a ramp to be used safely. Should each stairwell in a building be half steps and half ramp? Would you consider that safe?

CramCycle

Doctor Bob wrote: »

Alternatively, can you think of any flights of steps that wouldn't be improved by putting ramps or running tracks for bike, pram or buggy wheels? Must they be 'necessary'? Is it not enough that it's a cycle-friendly adaptation of the urban realm?

Such a feature should be part of every flight of steps by default, unless there is a strong case for not doing it.

I was more thinking are there enough places to make it compulsory (which in terms of the ramps I think it already is for new steps for wheelchair access), I was honestly asking where? the only place I can think of is in Temple Bar either at the entrance from the Ha'penny bridge or beside the central bank and Ha'penny bridge itself and I presumed there were issues with doing it at either or else they would have already for wheelchair users or pram users (there is no need to do it for cyclists at any of these points).

Basically, there isn't a need to make it for cyclists because there is nowhere in Dublin this is an issue, but there should be ramps on every staircase for prams/wheelchair users etc. I just don't know why it hasn't been done in the few places it should have been.

Anyway, way OT

CramCycle

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Yes (at the risk of sounding smart) anywhere where there is a destination for cyclists accessible by steps.

In Galway, the city council put cycle paths on the Quincentenary bridge crossing the Corrib but provided no direct means of accessing them from the University campus on one side or the adjacent residential areas on the other side of the river.

Apologies, I though I made it obvious I was talking about in Dublin, it's pretty flat in the city centre. I don't know of any cycle paths in Dublin that have steps along them (though I could be wrong). The few places I mentioned can be easily circled by bike and only add mere minutes on (in fact potentially quicker than dismounting and going through the pedestrian area). It's been awhile (and I don't remember it well) since I have been in Galway.

seamus

Indeed, there are very few steps in Dublin city and in general we've always tended to opt for sloped streets instead of steps, especially compared to other european cities.

The only one I can really think of is the transition from Temple Bar to the Ha'penny bridge, and I imagine that one annoys wheelchair users too. Though the millenium bridge accomodates both.

Hermy

smeedyova wrote: »

What's wrong with that?

I wouldn't care to be a wheelchair user for one thing.

Doctor Bob

HivemindXX wrote: »

In general steps are used where the incline is too steep for a ramp to be used safely. Should each stairwell in a building be half steps and half ramp? Would you consider that safe?

Apologies if I wasn't clear: I'm not talking about riding a bike on the slope, I'm talking about a ramp to facilitate wheeling up/down steps where the only other option is to carry it (or take a long detour). It's a standard feature in many European cities (Amsterdam, Copenhagen, Berlin...), but almost entirely absent here. The proportion of width (50/50 split? Probably not...) is a matter of detail; I'm more concerned with the principle.

And there are lots of steps around Dublin, flat and all as it may be- every train station has them, to take just one example.

CramCycle

Doctor Bob wrote: »

And there are lots of steps around Dublin, flat and all as it may be- every train station has them, to take just one example.

Most of them have lifts as well, I carry mine up the stairs because i can and people who can't have the lift or escalator as an alternative, although the ones you find in many european cities are handy (the steel rail, one for bikes going up and one for bikes going down) and take up little space, although undoubtedly you'll have some scummer in dublin either tripping for a lawsuit or just damaging them in general.

I'm just saying we don't have an urgent need for them (or in my opinion any need) for bicycles.

galwaycyclist

CramCycle wrote: »

I'm just saying we don't have an urgent need for them (or in my opinion any need) for bicycles.

Yes we arguably don't need them where our cycling model is based on simply moving fit young adults. But when we start trying for a range of utility journeys with a range of cyclists abilities and carrying luggage of various kinds we start creating a need for them.

What happens when you have people who are cycling in their ordinary/business clothes and don't wish to hoist a bike on their shoulder and jog up the steps?

@Monument not trying to hijack your thread do we move this?

CramCycle

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Yes we arguably don't need them where our cycling model is based on simply moving fit young adults. But when we start trying for a range of utility journeys with a range of cyclists abilities and carrying luggage of various kinds we start creating a need for them.

Like I said, in Dublin there are few steps and those mentioned above can either be easily circumnavigated or in the case of at train/DART stations there are lifts and escalators which can be used. It maybe different in Galway, I can't comment on Galway but in Dublin, I don't see the need, regardless of type of cyclist.

On a separate note, anywhere there are steps for public access I believe there should be a ramp for prams/wheelchairs etc, I just don't think such things are needed for bikes but they should be there for other reasons.

What happens when you have people who are cycling in their ordinary/business clothes and don't wish to hoist a bike on their shoulder and jog up the steps?

Carry it at their sides or use the other facilities mentioned?

@Monument not trying to hijack your thread do we move this?

Also good point on moving this as we are kind of hi jacking this thread.

blorg

Wheeling ramps make perfect sense and are common on overpasses etc here in China. They are invaluable with a loaded touring bike, any time I have had to take it up or down steps without a ramp has been torture. I imagine even carrying a normal bike would be tough too if you were a bit older/more frail, never mind you might have shopping. I have no issue with wheeling ramps, they are super.

What was comical about that German path is it left the (quiet, small) road to go down a steep incline it was difficult to get the bike down, run along a narrow shared use path behind some houses, through a pool of mud and some barriers to stop motorbikes and then meandered back up to join the same road about 300m later. It was utterly pointless from any standpoint. The only plus point was that there were no peds (or indeed other cyclists) as there was no reason whatsoever for anyone other than a tourist who didn't know better to go down there.

monument

In Copenhagen, these rails are used (Google Street View) on steps outdoors and in stairwells in buildings like train stations.

Outdoors, the preference is of course to provide bicycle ramps where cyclists stay on their bikes, but that's not always possible given space and practical reasons (such as low demand, or another route not to far away). Useful for retrofitting under/overpasses but not an excuse to not provide a cyclable ramp on, for example, a new build motorway overpass.

tomasrojo

In answer to my own question, it seems the Rathmines-Fairview route will open in September.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/magazine/2011/0716/1224300627383.html

(ALONG THE GRAND CANAL: Cycling )

And the time on the still-to-be-finished route? Thirteen minutes from Portobello Bridge to the Grand Canal Theatre. By car it would take at least twice that in normal daytime traffic. Barring road crossings, it’s also some of the most pleasant city cycling available. The final route is expected to open in September.

It'll be interesting anyway.

This thread is really derailed now, isn't it?

Korvanica

Video Showing its not only Cyclists that do stupid things...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QE2xNtjJeC0

ED E

I have a question, as a motorist one is expected to be able to stop and if you hit somebody you're pretty much always in the wrong. Is it the same for other road users? If you're bombing it down a cycle path and some braindead f'ck steps out into your path, you wont necessarily be able to do anything to avoid them. Who would be in the wrong, if you get knocked about are they liable?

-Chris-

When you're driving any vehicle, you should be able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear.
When you're walking/cycling/driving you're expected not to step/cycle/drive out in front of someone else unpredictably.

In the case that you're cycling and someone steps out in front of you, who's to blame will depend largely on which of you made the stupid mistake and didn't allow for the other person.

I don't know how that stands up in law, but I think it's pretty plain.

CramCycle

Lethal_Bullet wrote: »

I have a question, as a motorist one is expected to be able to stop and if you hit somebody you're pretty much always in the wrong. Is it the same for other road users? If you're bombing it down a cycle path and some braindead f'ck steps out into your path, you wont necessarily be able to do anything to avoid them. Who would be in the wrong, if you get knocked about are they liable?

It really depends on the specifics of the situation. If they just step out though it implies you could see them on the edge of the path and should prepare to stop/pull out just in case. If they run and jump with the intention of hitting you then obviously they are liable.

Its to vague a situation to give an answer in my opinion but as Chris says, common sense wins out unless of course they get onto Joe for a full on public riot :pac::pac::pac:

Blowfish

tomasrojo wrote: »

In answer to my own question, it seems the Rathmines-Fairview route will open in September.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/magazine/2011/0716/1224300627383.html

(ALONG THE GRAND CANAL: Cycling )



It'll be interesting anyway.

This thread is really derailed now, isn't it?

I use a bit of that for my commute. It's already suffering from people parking on it and a ridiculous amount of pedestrians wandering on it.

Stark

seamus wrote: »

That was me
But that's kind of my point. It works in Germany, because that's what the German people are like. It doesn't work in Ireland, because the Irish are less concerned about such trivial laws.

Although people in general aren't that different. I'd be interested to know if the number of collisions between peds and cyclists is noticeably higher in Germany than elsewhere.

Just back from a week in Hamburg. They have those on-footpath cycle lanes everywhere. They're good for cyclists in the sense that there are few driveways/obstacles and the cyclists get priority at junctions (and the lanes flow sensibly into each other). Bad for pedestrians in that you can't just stop randomly on the footpath and look around without having to be on the alert for cyclists coming through. Also, pedestrians do walk on the cycle lanes when it suits them. There was one point where the footpath portion went up a ramp and the cycle lane continued on flat and everyone opted for the cycle lane.

Overall the system worked well enough as the paths for the most part wide enough to accommodate both pedestrian and cyclist traffic comfortably. It's in no way a vindication of the Irish system with narrow footpath/cycle lanes and cyclists having to yield to driveways and obstacles every few metres with lanes disappearing and reappearing and no safe way of making a right turn without leaving the path and opting for the road well in advance.

Also, people cycling fast on racers did use the road as opposed to the cycle lanes.

ED E

I made the mistake of cycling up O'Connell st yesterday, I normally avoid it. The usual minefield of idiots who think just because you are on two wheels you should be ignored.

At both the second pedestrian crossing I had some chap with headphones in walk straight into my path when the rest stopped, completely oblivious. I dodged and waved in his face(the temptation would be to give him a clip on the ear) to get him to wake the f'ck up. With the light in my favour would I be in the clear if I'd hit him?

Stark

Lethal_Bullet wrote:

With the light in my favour would I be in the clear if I'd hit him?

I would say that if you were able to avoid him but chose not to, then you were clearly in the wrong, light or no light.

galwaycyclist

Stark wrote: »

Just back from a week in Hamburg.

Quick question do the traffic lights work like other German cities, eg they go green for everyone in a particular direction - cars, cyclists, pedestrians. And do turning motorists, who also have a green, then wait for cyclists and pedestrians on coming through on the inside?

JohnMarston

Cyclists (plural) have clipped me cycling full speed down the footpath instead of using the road.I called one out on not using the road and all he did was flip me off and keep cycling.
Cyclists have cut out in front of me in the city, swinging to one side of the road and back and slowing up a line of traffic, only to keep to their side once the guards have passed the opposite way.
I have almost caused accident from cyclists not having any high vis equipment on their bike or their person at night, rendering them almost invisible.

Other than that, a great bunch of lads

Stark

galwaycyclist wrote:

Quick question do the traffic lights work like other German cities, eg they go green for everyone in a particular direction - cars, cyclists, pedestrians. And do turning motorists, who also have a green, then wait for cyclists and pedestrians on coming through on the inside?

From what I could see, the traffic lights worked similar to here, ie:haphazard sequencing and many of the streets had the button you had to push to get a green light. They had the "turn right on red" rule for motorists but motorists turning right on green had priority over peds/cyclists who still had a red light.

JohnMarston wrote:

Cyclists (plural) have clipped me cycling full speed down the footpath instead of using the road.I called one out on not using the road and all he did was flip me off and keep cycling.

What street was it?