Mayo GAA Discussion Thread

WhiteWalls

Alan Freeman isn't a target man. He is long and rangy but he does not have the size required

GBXI

davegrohl48 wrote: »

This continuously comes up about Barry Moran at full forward or as a target man. I'v seen him a few times at club level being marked by club defenders and him being only okay.
He's not the quickest and that isn't going to change. He doesn't have quick hands, he can't score goals with the foot or take points all that well. He's not the quickest over ten yards and he doesn't have the power of a guy like Donaghy or AOS to hold off two tacklers.
He might be able to break an odd ball but surely to God you need a few more attributes to be a target man. Not just breaking the ball randomly.

I couldn't possibly disagree with this more. The three best number 14s in Mayo are (in no particular order) Alan Freeman, Andy Moran, and Barry Moran.

I have seen, on a lot more than one occasion, Barry Moran run riot at full forward for Castlebar. He is, despite yesterdays daft shot, excellent at kicking points off either foot. He is the best fielder of a ball in Mayo, and the comment about not having the power of Donaghy?! He's very comfortable in physical situations. His goal-scoring record for Mayo is very good for someone who has played mostly at midfield. The problem for Mayo is that we are running team and have been since 2010, they are our strengths. If the half-backs/forwards and mid-fielders could learn to play some long balls into the full-forward spot now and again Barry would be a very good option.

WhiteWalls

GBXI wrote: »

I couldn't possibly disagree with this more. The three best number 14s in Mayo are (in no particular order) Alan Freeman, Andy Moran, and Barry Moran.

I have seen, on a lot more than one occasion, Barry Moran run riot at full forward for Castlebar. He is, despite yesterdays daft shot, excellent at kicking points off either foot. He is the best fielder of a ball in Mayo, and the comment about not having the power of Donaghy?! He's very comfortable in physical situations. His goal-scoring record for Mayo is very good for someone who has played mostly at midfield. The problem for Mayo is that we are running team and have been since 2010, they are our strengths. If the half-backs/forwards and mid-fielders could learn to play some long balls into the full-forward spot now and again Barry would be a very good option.

Barry is an excellent club player but he is way out of his depth in an inter county setting. The day of catching and kicking is basically gone. He is far too slow, I wouldn't even have him on the panel.

WhiteWalls

And Barry Regan is the best target man in this county

GBXI

WhiteWalls wrote: »

Barry is an excellent club player but he is way out of his depth in an inter county setting. The day of catching and kicking is basically gone. He is far too slow, I wouldn't even have him on the panel.

Come off it, he stands out a country mile at club level - whether in mid-field or full forward and has done for years. Not to mention he's been a Mayo senior for nearly 10 years. He played all of 2012 at mid-field for Mayo and was nominated for an All Star. Out of his depth he is not.

Against the blanket defence, with decent supply he could do at good job at 14.

WhiteWalls

GBXI wrote: »

Come off it, he stands out a country mile at club level - whether in mid-field or full forward and has done for years. Not to mention he's been a Mayo senior for nearly 10 years. He played all of 2012 at mid-field for Mayo and was nominated for an All Star. Out of his depth he is not.

Against the blanket defence, with decent supply he could do at good job at 14.

I clearly said he is an excellent club footballer. There is a big difference at county level however. I would easily say he is the slowest inter county outfield player in Division 1 and 2. The days of big immobile players playing at the highest level is gone. Alan Freeman is the ideal target man if he bulked up but that isn't going to happen.

GBXI

WhiteWalls wrote: »

I clearly said he is an excellent club footballer. There is a big difference at county level however. I would easily say he is the slowest inter county outfield player in Division 1 and 2. The days of big immobile players playing at the highest level is gone. Alan Freeman is the ideal target man if he bulked up but that isn't going to happen.

He is no doubt slow, but he has some other very important attributes that help compensate for that. Great fielder, good foot-passer (a lot better for example, than Seamus) and well able to kick a score. Anyway, I think he would be a viable option at 14 given decent ball.

Agreed that Freeman is ideal, I think his size is fine but he just doesn't get the right service.

seligehgit

Just watched the game back:( That was an absolute joke of a black card,Aidan O Shea was fully committed to the tackle..accidental.TBF to Eddie Kinsella he was relying on Marty Duffy to outline what happened,enough said.

davegrohl48

I said Barry Moran does okay at club level. Excellent scorer off both feet, thats simply not the case. I stand by what I say for a big man he does not match up power wise to Donaghy or AOS. His goal against Galway was a punched goal against an opened up defence. He rarely kicks goals having to beat a man. Couldn't possibly disagree with me more evidenced by him being excellent off both feet? Trying to be factual but he's not got most the attributes you mention for inter county level.

Blackjack

Only got to see the first half had to rely on radio commentary for the rest. However from what I could see in the first half, Tyrone were better prepared and came with a game plan to negate our style. We had no answer to it and our shooting capabilities were not up to dealing with the blanket defence.

I'd rather find out the problems now in the league than doing so and losing in the championship. My worry is again some of the management decisions, just did not have any sort of plan to respond. Hopefully something they can adjust as we get more games under the belt.

Shurimgreat

Mayo looked the most impressive team in the first round of the league. Tyrone, playing relatively traditionally, looked the least impressive.

Round 2 and Tyrone easily account for Mayo using ultra blanket defence.

I think we've seen the blueprint for the rest of the league and championship folks, particularly from Tyrone, possibly Donegal and a few other teams. They can't beat you traditionally so its 15 men behind the ball and come and break us down if you think you can, while we hit you on the break.

I think I will give this years GAA football a miss. Hopefully things will improve in 2016.

davegrohl48

Unfortunately you're going to be spot on with that prediction. The game is very predictable at the moment. Few moments of sunshine. Clearly rule changes needed. Most the changes required to the Mayo team involve us dropping smaller skillful players and replacing with big powerful players. Mark Ronaldson had a very good game versus Kerry. But no place for him versus a blanket defence. Similar Michael Hall n at the rate we're going Kevin Mc will be under pressure. People always mention Ryan McHugh n Mark McHugh. Well look at the size of the rest of the team. Almost all tall n well built.

ultrapercy

Good players trump tactics and systems. Mayos failings on Sunday are nothing new and they have nothing to do with tactics, systems or blankets. It has very little to do with referees either, Limerick last August aside.Mayo simply do not have forwards good enough at the very highest level. Mayo do not have a forward who can win his own ball and score from a difficult angle or distance against the best defenders, this has been the situation that predates Horan and indeed goes back to beyond the scope of my memory. In any sport its the truly talented creative player that make the difference and Mayo dont have them and havent for a long time.Horans attempt at a solution was to use powerfull hard running backs to break the gain line and set up easy scoring oppertunities for the forwards and it was very nearly successful.
All that said, not too much should be read into Sunday. Tyrone were desperate for the win as Harte was coming under real pressure and Mayo were probably a little complacent after their very productive trip to killarney. For Tyrone it was a must win and they adopted an at all costs" approach, which is their right. Its up to the home team to break that down.

seligehgit

ultrapercy wrote: »

Good players trump tactics and systems. Mayos failings on Sunday are nothing new and they have nothing to do with tactics, systems or blankets. It has very little to do with referees either, Limerick last August aside.Mayo simply do not have forwards good enough at the very highest level. Mayo do not have a forward who can win his own ball and score from a difficult angle or distance against the best defenders, this has been the situation that predates Horan and indeed goes back to beyond the scope of my memory. In any sport its the truly talented creative player that make the difference and Mayo dont have them and havent for a long time.Horans attempt at a solution was to use powerfull hard running backs to break the gain line and set up easy scoring oppertunities for the forwards and it was very nearly successful.
All that said, not too much should be read into Sunday. Tyrone were desperate for the win as Harte was coming under real pressure and Mayo were probably a little complacent after their very productive trip to killarney. For Tyrone it was a must win and they adopted an at all costs" approach, which is their right. Its up to the home team to break that down.

You have hit the nail on the head, excellent post.

davegrohl48

Good players unfortunately do not trump tactics or blankets. Take 15 talented players not prepared in detail for a well organised blanket and they will likely lose more games than they win.
We're for sure headed for an attritional championship this year.

naughto

Did homes say he was not expecting tyrone to play the blanket defence ????
What has he being doing the last few yrs regards football every one knows they play this sh1te football
A bit it does work which is the worst thing

Fr Tod Umptious

naughto wrote: »

Did homes say he was not expecting tyrone to play the blanket defence ????
What has he being doing the last few yrs regards football every one knows they play this sh1te football
A bit it does work which is the worst thing

I heard a sound bite from him on RTE and what I think he said was "this is the first time we have encountered a blanket defense",

I took it that the we he was refering to was this Mayo managemnet team.
i.e Sligo IT, Roscommon nor Kerry, nor anyone in a challenge match played that way.

There was no indication that they were not expecting it.

With regard to the game itself and the persistence with the short kickout , at times I though they were doing it deliberatly, that the winning of the game was secondary and that they needed to look at cerain things in certain situations, thus they did not alter their stargety too much

Shurimgreat

ultrapercy wrote: »

Good players trump tactics and systems. Mayos failings on Sunday are nothing new and they have nothing to do with tactics, systems or blankets. It has very little to do with referees either, Limerick last August aside.Mayo simply do not have forwards good enough at the very highest level. Mayo do not have a forward who can win his own ball and score from a difficult angle or distance against the best defenders, this has been the situation that predates Horan and indeed goes back to beyond the scope of my memory. In any sport its the truly talented creative player that make the difference and Mayo dont have them and havent for a long time.Horans attempt at a solution was to use powerfull hard running backs to break the gain line and set up easy scoring oppertunities for the forwards and it was very nearly successful.
All that said, not too much should be read into Sunday. Tyrone were desperate for the win as Harte was coming under real pressure and Mayo were probably a little complacent after their very productive trip to killarney. For Tyrone it was a must win and they adopted an at all costs" approach, which is their right. Its up to the home team to break that down.

That's the problem. When certain teams are underdogs or under pressure for a win, they revert to the ultra blanket negative style. Then you get attritional boring chess like games.

Donegal last year, and Tyrone are setting out their stall early too. It's a case of denying the other team scoring opportunities and then try win by a couple of points yourself. 1-7 is a very low score for a Mayo team, particularly playing at home.

Maybe it does take good forwards shooting from distance to win these type of games. However, its still awful to watch 15 men behind the ball and its going to be a huge turn off for supporters. And if 15 men behind the ball is successful, you can be sure every underage manager will be mimicking it as they are already attempting to do up the north.

WallyGUFC

Every team needs a solid defensive system. Mayo have one. Galway don't or at least didn't before this season. Tyrone take it to the absolute extreme and in my opinion it shows a lack of confidence in their own ability. They need to crowd out their own 45 (which is fairly easy to do) in order to give themselves any chance whatsoever of winning. Thankfully it's only the league and come Championship time in Croke Park, they'll be found out.

davegrohl48

Shurimgreat wrote: »

That's the problem. When certain teams are underdogs or under pressure for a win, they revert to the ultra blanket negative style. Then you get attritional boring chess like games.

Donegal last year, and Tyrone are setting out their stall early too. It's a case of denying the other team scoring opportunities and then try win by a couple of points yourself. 1-7 is a very low score for a Mayo team, particularly playing at home.

Maybe it does take good forwards shooting from distance to win these type of games. However, its still awful to watch 15 men behind the ball and its going to be a huge turn off for supporters. And if 15 men behind the ball is successful, you can be sure every underage manager will be mimicking it as they are already attempting to do up the north.

It's awful to watch is true. I would say the football championship will soon have a reduced audience at games and on TV. That will be the point where the GAA situp and listen. There was already a reduction in revenue from football gate receipts compared to hurling noted in the Annual report.
There's not going to be any sudden reversal where a team comes to the fore with an open attacking style of play.
We're evolved tactically to a hybrid of rugby/Olympic handball/basketball.
In Olympic handball basically one entire team attacks, one entire team defends. Every few seconds a player tries to burst through the defensive line. Interspersed the very odd turnover moved quickly to the other end of the pitch for an attempt at a score. Repeat * n until the final whistle.

naughto

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I heard a sound bite from him on RTE and what I think he said was "this is the first time we have encountered a blanket defense",

I took it that the we he was refering to was this Mayo managemnet team.
i.e Sligo IT, Roscommon nor Kerry, nor anyone in a challenge match played that way.

There was no indication that they were not expecting it.

With regard to the game itself and the persistence with the short kickout , at times I though they were doing it deliberatly, that the winning of the game was secondary and that they needed to look at cerain things in certain situations, thus they did not alter their stargety too much

The blanket defence is not a new system its being around for yrs if they where not expecting it they sure as hell did not have a plan to deal with it.15 wides as well is shocking I no they had to shoot from far out with the defence Tyrone had in place but still that was avery high number to go wide.
I still think come Connaught final day the mayo will be the same as it was under horan we just do not have the players

keane2097

ultrapercy wrote: »

Good players trump tactics and systems. Mayos failings on Sunday are nothing new and they have nothing to do with tactics, systems or blankets. It has very little to do with referees either, Limerick last August aside.Mayo simply do not have forwards good enough at the very highest level. Mayo do not have a forward who can win his own ball and score from a difficult angle or distance against the best defenders, this has been the situation that predates Horan and indeed goes back to beyond the scope of my memory. In any sport its the truly talented creative player that make the difference and Mayo dont have them and havent for a long time.Horans attempt at a solution was to use powerfull hard running backs to break the gain line and set up easy scoring oppertunities for the forwards and it was very nearly successful.
All that said, not too much should be read into Sunday. Tyrone were desperate for the win as Harte was coming under real pressure and Mayo were probably a little complacent after their very productive trip to killarney. For Tyrone it was a must win and they adopted an at all costs" approach, which is their right. Its up to the home team to break that down.

What a load of rubbish. If there's anyone in the country who thinks Tyrone have better players than Mayo I'd be surprised, which means the game you're talking about categorically disproves your premise from line 1.

Was it the truly talented creative players that made the difference for Tyrone the other day, or was it their tactics and systems?

Syferus

We regularly played with 13-14 men behind the ball in defence against Mayo in the FBD. We're probably more positive attacking than Tyrone are but few if any teams will ever go through a match without dropping back all but one or two of their forwards these days. If the forward's man moves up the field it's usally that forward's task to mark back. If Holmes is really getting rowdy enough about the 15th man dropping back to mention it as something they hadn't seen then he's just looking for excuses.

Baggy Trousers

keane2097 wrote: »

What a load of rubbish. If there's anyone in the country who thinks Tyrone have better players than Mayo I'd be surprised, which means the game you're talking about categorically disproves your premise from line 1.

Was it the truly talented creative players that made the difference for Tyrone the other day, or was it their tactics and systems?

I think you missed the point.

davegrohl48

Baggy Trousers wrote: »

I think you missed the point.

So the type of barstooler in Mayo who never goes to matches but watches the big ones on the pub on television and says "Couldn't kick the ball over the uckin bar" is spot on then? Mayo don't have forwards and it's just as simple as that?
Nothing to do with blanket defences or tactics?

TCDStudent1

davegrohl48 wrote: »

Good players unfortunately do not trump tactics or blankets. Take 15 talented players not prepared in detail for a well organised blanket and they will likely lose more games than they win.
We're for sure headed for an attritional championship this year.

The blanket defence is a convenient excuse for mayo not winning on Sunday. With more belief and conviction, mayo could have won that match. Kevin mcloughlin had a chance of a point in the second half but doubted himself, took a hop and ran into 4 defenders - that is not the blanket defence, that's poor mayo play. That's just 1 example out of so many on Sunday. I wouldn't lambast Tyrone for playing the way they do. I'd be more concerned with mayos inability to overcome Tyrone's system. Anyway, it's early days yet.... A lot of football to be played and things always change as the year progresses

Fr Tod Umptious

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

The blanket defence is a convenient excuse for mayo not winning on Sunday. With more belief and conviction, mayo could have won that match. Kevin mcloughlin had a chance of a point in the second half but doubted himself, took a hop and ran into 4 defenders - that is not the blanket defence, that's poor mayo play. That's just 1 example out of so many on Sunday. I wouldn't lambast Tyrone for playing the way they do. I'd be more concerned with mayos inability to overcome Tyrone's system. Anyway, it's early days yet.... A lot of football to be played and things always change as the year progresses

I think the bold bit is very important.

Just like the win over Kerry lets not read too much into this.

davegrohl48

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

The blanket defence is a convenient excuse for mayo not winning on Sunday. With more belief and conviction, mayo could have won that match. Kevin mcloughlin had a chance of a point in the second half but doubted himself, took a hop and ran into 4 defenders - that is not the blanket defence, that's poor mayo play. That's just 1 example out of so many on Sunday. I wouldn't lambast Tyrone for playing the way they do. I'd be more concerned with mayos inability to overcome Tyrone's system. Anyway, it's early days yet.... A lot of football to be played and things always change as the year progresses

Where am I referencing anything about Mayo versus Tyrone. The original point was that talent alone can trump tactics/blanket. The last twelve years have shown defensive tactics will more often than not trump unprepared talent. If talent gets prepared well that is using tactics. Contradicting the original point that talent can trump tactics/blanket.

Shurimgreat

naughto wrote: »

The blanket defence is not a new system its being around for yrs if they where not expecting it they sure as hell did not have a plan to deal with it.15 wides as well is shocking I no they had to shoot from far out with the defence Tyrone had in place but still that was avery high number to go wide.
I still think come Connaught final day the mayo will be the same as it was under horan we just do not have the players

The blanket defence with roughly 11 or 12 players behind the ball has been around for a while, roughly 10 years.

Last year Donegal took it one step further and usually had 13 behind the ball.

Tyrone have taken it even further, to the max, 15 players behind the ball.

Its not just Mayo who will suffer against this 15 behind the ball system. Scoring points from far out is a declining art in the last few years. This is why the ultra blanket is so effective in the modern game, since modern footballers generally can't score from far out. Witness the All Ireland final last year, both teams had poor accuracy from far out.

Under this system you either kick from far out and put it wide and that's not just Mayo but all teams. Or you kick near in under severe pressure which will also increase your wide account.

In any case it makes for poor viewing especially for the neutral with low scoring games.

I'm not a sunshine supporter by the way. I'd watch any game of football at any time of year. But when Gaelic football becomes a battle of attrition and akin to watching paint dry, then I'll be changing the channel.

Defiler Of The Coffin

davegrohl48 wrote: »

Where am I referencing anything about Mayo versus Tyrone. The original point was that talent alone can trump tactics/blanket. The last twelve years have shown defensive tactics will more often than not trump unprepared talent. If talent gets prepared well that is using tactics. Contradicting the original point that talent can trump tactics/blanket.

Exactly. Mayo (both the team and management) were simply unprepared on Sunday. Over the years we've had mixed results playing against blanket defences, Sunday was probably the worst one we've had in a while.

Tactically and fitness wise we were far behind where we can expect to be come the summer time. Go back every year since Horan came on board and I can think of at least one game where we were badly roasted in the league. We've got two points out of two games so far which is better than where we were this time last year. Mayo fans have a habit of coming out with the same old cliches every time we ship a loss, no tactical awareness, no forwards etc. C&H have a tough job between trying new players and tactics and keeping our Div 1 status but it's early days yet, let's save the panic for if or when we are staring into the Division 2 abyss.

Sunday was a bad day at the office but at least there are green shoots - Kevin Keane's emergence as a force in FB and the performances of the younger lads are encouraging. We played lousy but we still only lost by 4 points in the end.