State spending €3million on communion rituals

lynski

I am in shock that this payment exists in this day and age.
There is no way this money should be given out for this.
My communion dress was made by an aunt, i wore it for as long as i could afterwards at mass each week. My sister got a new dress as she was tiny and one could not be borrowed and the other sister wore a borrowed dress, there was no money for anything else.
As an atheist I am appalled by communion in schools anyway, but paying for the stupid dresses? crazy country.

magicbastarder

ninja900 wrote: »

The State should under no circumstances whatsoever subsidise religious practise. End of.

this is my beef. they still do. 90% of the national schools they fund are under catholic patronage, so they are by default supporting a system where people have to send their kids to schools where attending communion is a default choice. and first communion is not a zero cost event, especially for schools which do not insist on a uniform-only policy (which are plenty).

i don't disagree with the reduction in the payment, but as far as i am concerned, the government's first duty is to end their implicit support of first communion, and then they can justify reducing the hardship payments.

Daftendirekt

magicbastarder wrote: »

this is my beef. they still do. 90% of the national schools they fund are under catholic patronage, so they are by default supporting a system where people have to send their kids to schools where attending communion is a default choice. and first communion is not a zero cost event, especially for schools which do not insist on a uniform-only policy (which are plenty).

i don't disagree with the reduction in the payment, but as far as i am concerned, the government's first duty is to end their implicit support of first communion, and then they can justify reducing the hardship payments.

I don't see why it has to be a choice between spending a bomb on communion-wear and a school uniform. You can find plenty of sharp clothing in Penny's or Dunne's on a budget. And in post Celtic Tiger Ireland, with the retail sector struggling, even some of the more upmarket clothing shops are regularly selling stuff at discount prices.

And if you're really struggling to stick to a reasonable budget, isn't this kind of thing exactly what Credit Unions are for?

magicbastarder

it's still going to cost at minimum maybe €50 or €100 quid for the day. and some people simply don't have that handy.

eyescreamcone

Dress your child up in lederhosen if you like.
However, the state should provide zero towards this mullarky.
Next they'll be looking for a contribution towards their wedding dress.
Crazy carry on!!!

MagicMarker

magicbastarder wrote: »

it's still going to cost at minimum maybe €50 or €100 quid for the day. and some people simply don't have that handy.

And? I don't have the money to go to the cinema, so I won't go.

If you can't save 50-100 quid in 7 years then there's no hope for you.

magicbastarder

MagicMarker wrote: »

And? I don't have the money to go to the cinema, so I won't go.

is the state placing you in a position where it's expected that you will go, and opting out will potentially cause tension between you and your children's school, and making your kid feel left out? thought not.

MagicMarker

magicbastarder wrote: »

is the state placing you in a position where it's expected that you will go, and opting out will potentially cause tension between you and your children's school, and making your kid feel left out? thought not.

I didn't realise the taxpayer is responsible for making sure other people's children don't feel left out.

Why isn't the parent responsible for this charge? How are they unable to afford it when they know years in advance that they will need it? Should the taxpayer also subsidize new Nike runners so the poor kid doesn't feel inadequate next to his other classmates who's parents can afford such luxuries? I remember when I was a kid I had a pair of ''Nicks'' runners, oh the embarrassment!! For football I had to wear my brother's boots, he's 5 years older than me, imagine my embarrassment as a goalie when I can barely kick a ball because I'm wearing boots that are way too big? Should the tax payer pay for these as well?

Zamboni

magicbastarder wrote: »

it's still going to cost at minimum maybe €50 or €100 quid for the day. and some people simply don't have that handy.

They can still apply for that kind of money as an ENP from the CWO.

magicbastarder

MagicMarker wrote: »

Should the taxpayer also subsidize new Nike runners so the poor kid doesn't feel inadequate next to his other classmates who's parents can afford such luxuries?

i'll explain it again; the state are not responsible for upholding a system where nike runners are the default choice for kids. that's the crux.
if first communion was not a core activity in the national school system, it would be ludicrous to suggest that the government should have any responsibility in financial matters arising from it.
but it is a core activity - and that in itself is ludicrous - so the government has to take ownership of a problem they are perpetuating.

i do appreciate that there are moves afoot to deal with this.

MagicMarker

magicbastarder wrote: »

i'll explain it again; the state are not responsible for upholding a system where nike runners are the default choice for kids. that's the crux.
if first communion was not a core activity in the national school system, it would be ludicrous to suggest that the government should have any responsibility in financial matters arising from it.
but it is a core activity - and that in itself is ludicrous - so the government has to take ownership of a problem they are perpetuating.

i do appreciate that there are moves afoot to deal with this.

It's a core activity that doesn't actually cost the parents any money, what does cost money are the optional extras such as pretty little dresses and suits. No one is forcing parents to buy these and the government should not be subsidizing optional extras just so some kids won't feel a little embarrassed.

Again, why aren't the parents able to save 50-100 in the 7 years leading up to the communion?

MrPudding

gbee wrote: »

Another side of the uniform is it is almost always brand new too ~ so the expense continues, some children disobey the uniform as they can't afford to buy a new one if there are no more sibling to pass it down to.

This arguement is fairly crap. Yes, the unifrom may be bought new, but it has a purpose other than communion and will be used more than once.

The expense doe snot continue, it is an expense that has already been taken into acocunt. Aside form that, I am pretty sure there is help for families that cannot afford to pay for uniforms, and that is something I would support.

goose2005 wrote: »

That sounds like nonsense to me - there'd be no increase in demand in the same period, so I don't see why there would be a huge increase in supply.

I am sure that fact that it sounds like nonsense to you is a great consolation to the women who have had to go on the game. if I could remember the name of the nun I would contact her and tell her you reckon she is lying. I am sure she would be really upset.

I would have to presume there is a lot of latent demand in the sex industry to allow for this kind of behaviour.

Anyway, here is an interesting article about prostitution in Ireland. Short excerpt:

Article wrote:

Some make a choice to do it. It is something women enter and leave all the time depending on whether they have a First Communion coming up or another financial pressure.

Read more: http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/independent-woman/love-sex/college-girl-niamh-why-i-became-a-220-per-hour-escort-2982125.html#ixzz1lJwtCXmE

Whilst I have not taken the time to look, as I heard the origional radio segment and happened to beleive what was being said, I am sure if you had a look at the websites of the organisations that support prostitutes you might find some more information.

MrP

kylith

MrPudding wrote: »

m sure that fact that it sounds like nonsense to you is a great consolation to the women who have had to go on the game. if I could remember the name of the nun I would contact her and tell her you reckon she is lying. I am sure she would be really upset.

I would have to presume there is a lot of latent demand in the sex industry to allow for this kind of behaviour.

MrP

i do hope I'm misinterpreting, but are you actually claiming that women become prostitutes to pay for Communion dresses? Even though there are plenty online for €20? Seriously?

Zamboni

kylith wrote: »

i do hope I'm misinterpreting, but are you actually claiming that women become prostitutes to pay for Communion dresses? Even though there are plenty online for €20? Seriously?

Prostitutes or communion dresses?

MagicMarker

Zamboni wrote: »

Prostitutes or communion dresses?

Prostitutes in communion dresses.

Solair

I don't understand why the state is paying for communions. Are churches incapable of raising their own funds to pay for their own events? *THE CATHOLIC CHURCH* is placing this enormous burden on parents by encouraging the hype around communions and confirmations. They do absolutely nothing to keep the costs down or to avoid the insane peer pressure that goes on.

If they wanted to deal with the problem of over-spends, they could deal with it in 10 minutes by just asking kids to turn up in boring looking robes, as is the case in France. (These can be hired and go over anything, much like a graduation robe)

Also, if the state's keen on paying for this, I would like them to pay for at least one of my children's landmark birthdays! Seems only fair!

Perhaps an MTV-style Sweet 16 party or a huge 18th bash ?

Or maybe insist they pay for the debs/grads ball? I mean, it's a secular / humanist coming of age / rite of passage. I don't really see why it shouldn't be covered on the basis that the communion / confirmation is.

MrPudding

kylith wrote: »

i do hope I'm misinterpreting, but are you actually claiming that women become prostitutes to pay for Communion dresses? Even though there are plenty online for €20? Seriously?

Yes. my original post mentioned a segement I heard on Newstalk years ago. it was a nun that worked in a support group for prostitutes. She said that huge numbers of women go on the game each year to pay for communion. She was calling for priest to make school uniform compusory for first communion.

The article I linked to just above also mentions communion as driver for putting women into prostitution. Clearly they don't want the €20 dresses.

MrP

magicbastarder

MagicMarker wrote: »

Again, why aren't the parents able to save 50-100 in the 7 years leading up to the communion?

because they're poor?

joseph brand

magicbastarder wrote: »

is the state placing you in a position where it's expected that you will go, and opting out will potentially cause tension between you and your children's school, and making your kid feel left out? thought not.

Religion. Causing trouble in children's education. Making children feel left out. Can you feel the love? I know I can. :rolleyes:

MagicMarker

magicbastarder wrote: »

because they're poor?

Is that actually a serious answer?

MrPudding

MagicMarker wrote: »

Is that actually a serious answer?

I think it can be. Some people are, quite simply, dirt poor. Give them as many years as you want and they still won't be able to save €100.

It can be very easy to lose sight of this when we all have our fancy jobs, but if you don't have enough money to feed and cloth yourself and you kids on a day to day basis where does the money to save come from?

I come form a fairly poor background, but I remember people at school with way less money than we had and they would have struggled to save pence per week.

When the choice is feed the kids or put a bit of money away for something in x years time food wins.

MrP

magicbastarder

MagicMarker wrote: »

Is that actually a serious answer?

the fact that you had to ask that actually caused me to die a little inside.

there are plenty of people who would not have the luxury (or ability) to save €50 two years before their child's communion and not have to worry about something happening in those two years which they would *need* to use the money for.

i know a few people who volunteer for the SVP. i've heard stories about people who simply have no furniture beyond a bed - with no bedlinen - in their houses, amongst others.

MagicMarker

magicbastarder wrote: »

i know a few people who volunteer for the SVP. i've heard stories about people who simply have no furniture beyond a bed - with no bedlinen - in their houses, amongst others.

And you think we should give these people €50-€100 money for a communion dress?

Priorities eh? Who needs 'em.

kylith

MagicMarker wrote: »

And you think we should give these people €50-€100 money for a communion dress?

Priorities eh? Who needs 'em.

Precisely. If people are so destitute that they have no furniture or bedclothes then they need furniture and bedclothes, not handouts for a poxy dress that will only be worn once. Are these people's priorities really so screwed that they can't say 'I can't afford to spend €100 on a dress, so I'm going to go to Oxfam and see if they have any for a fraction of that price", or that they can't tell the schools to go shove their demands for money? If you can't afford food then fancy clothing should be well down the list of priorities.

We didn't have a lot of money when I was growing up, although we weren't exactly destitute it's a struggle to feed and clothe 8 people on one salary, and my parents never had any qualms about telling us that they couldn't afford to buy us new bikes, or clothes, and we'd have to have second hand ones. My communion dress went to a cousin, who passed it on to someone else.

Dades

I was in TK Maxx at lunchtime (always have great girls clothes) and they have communion dresses all over the place starting at €26.

Lucy8080

a shrewd investment of 3 million by the state. they are right to be supporting this custom of our tribe.

3 million out....kids collect way more than 3 million in their little white dresses which is like a license for state /church approved begging from adults....money goes either into a bank account (helping to recapitalise the country) or goes into the economy as they hit the shops.

whats the return on this 3 million outlay?

whats the average collect on communions now? how much tax comes back by way of vat when then little ones hit the shops with their bounty?

i reckon the countries finances make a profit on this state benefit.

c.a.b. couldnt touch this communion lark for retrieving untaxed money. kids have no financial sense...that money will be straight back into the economy....and the vat mans pocket ...as soon as mammy brings em into town.

Sarky

Lucy8080 wrote: »

3 million out....kids collect way more than 3 million in their little white dresses which is like a license for state /church approved begging from adults....money goes either into a bank account (helping to recapitalise the country) or goes into the economy as they hit the shops.

Because 8 year olds are such shrewd investors.

magicbastarder

the fact that this is a religious ceremony is a red herring, in a sense. it's an extra expense on top of the usual school demands, like schoolbooks and the like, so should not be viewed as a purely religious exercise, but as a not-quite extracurricular activity.

maybe a bit like a school tour which would incur a cost for the parent.

Lucy8080

no sarky. it goes into the bank account because mammy is a spoilsport.

most mammies will let them hit the shops...boomtime for the highstreet.

in fact ...i think athiests may be subverting the economy by not getting their kids in on this lark.

beerbuddy

Lucy8080 wrote: »

no sarky. it goes into the bank account because mammy is a spoilsport.

most mammies will let them hit the shops...boomtime for the highstreet.

in fact ...i think athiests may be subverting the economy by not getting their kids in on this lark.

well lets cancel ST Patricks day parade they then and take down all the christmas lights.Funny how most middle class twentysomethings i am guessing find this shocking. Are you outraged because the people are poor or because of the religious aspect.

How many of you complained at the expense of the Paddys days parade or chrimbo lights.