Nate Marquardt released

Mellor

Jesus, Christ, now we have to go through this nonsense again, everyone spouts off without knowing what they are talking about. :rolleyes:

evil_seed wrote: »

Why doesn't Ariel ask "Isn't low testosterone a side effect from steroid use?"

Sounds like the same thing that was up with Chael Sonnen.

Chael Sonnen low test wasn't from using steroids. Or rather, the reason isn;t known why..

Nate has speculated that he was. He use a over the counter supp that contained steroids, he was using them before they where properly flagged in he US. This was pre 2005.

seadnamac wrote: »

My immediate, admittedly not very well informed opinion is that it's the same old sh*t. He got caught and is throwing out the usual excuses. Dana was right to send him packing.

Not very well informed is an understatement. You basically haven't a clue what you are talking about. I'm not tryign to put you down, but your comments make little sense.


Nate was diagnosis with low testtosertone.
He went on to hormone replacement therapy.
He declared this to the UFC and to the NJAC when he started. this isn;t agaisnt the ruels, so he couldn't of been "caught".
His test was above limits set by the commission, and he was leaving it to the last minute until they returned. The have now return apparently and he is no longer suspended by the atheletic commission, although still out of the UFC

I have something else to say about this, but i'll do a follow up post so as not to stick it in with the facts.

Xlami wrote: »

As much as I love Dana and how the UFC my major flaw is the lack of consistency with positive drug testing. I know it's the State Athletic Commissions that carry out the tests; that's not my point. My point would be that once a fighter fails a drug test he should be banned forever..

Your comments don't make any sense. He didn't fail a drug test.
He testosterone levels were high as a result of a legitmate test.

Low testosterone can be quite serious. He is perfectly intitled to recieve HRT and continue to fight. He should also be expected to be tested all the time.



Seriously, after the Chael Sonnen fight, you think people would know the story here.

Mellor

Mellor wrote: »

I have something else to say about this, but i'll do a follow up post so as not to stick it in with the facts.

I wanted to separate this out, as its not related directly to Nate's situation, and its quite suggestive.

I imagine any reasonable person will agree than people with low testosterone are entitled to recieve HRT. As long as levels are kept within the normal range.
The huge problem is how do the ACs establish this normal range? I'm sure i could google the figures, but they would mean nothing to me.

Before I make a judgement on Marquart and how "disgusting" his actions were. I really have to know how far above the level he was and if he had any chance of getting under. if he knew he was going to be over for the fight then he didn't handle it very well.

The real problem with HRT and the current rules is that fighters could train at elevated levels and stop treatment to return to normal levels (essentially what was the case if Nate made the limit). Could this have a potential benefit for a fighter? Prehaps, it certainly wouldn't be a hinderance.
Weater or not its significant would depend on the limit set by the AC, how high above, and for how long, a person could train and still expect to return to the limit.
In an ideal world, its insignificant. in either case, regualtions regarding HRT may need to be brought in.

weemcd

Mellor wrote: »

The huge problem is how do the ACs establish this normal range? I'm sure i could google the figures, but they would mean nothing to me.

I agree fully, I think I recall in the interview today they made the point there was variance between the commissions on what are considered normal levels of testosterone.

I'm also fed up already of people talking about steroids and performance enhancing drugs in relation to Marquardt. This is not the issue here.

Gregory Sirb, Pennsylvania State Athletic Commission, executive director:

“He was licensed. He completed all his paperwork for licensing probably a week before. I’ve been here 22 years and we do not embarrass . But we would have said, ‘drug test.’”

Lets make it clear once more, he declared everything he should have to his bosses & the commission, and they were aware of his condition and the therapy. His big problem was not clearing on time for the fight, the fallout being the change on the card & White's reaction.

Mellor

weemcd wrote: »

I agree fully, I think I recall in the interview today they made the point there was variance between the commissions on what are considered normal levels of testosterone.

True, different areas have different definitions of the range.

From my understanding, the reference level that you must be under if recieving HRT is lower than what a person with normal levels of test could be at. Which eliminates my concerns above. And is a pretty fair way to do it imo.

Mellor

weemcd wrote: »

I agree fully, I think I recall in the interview today they made the point there was variance between the commissions on what are considered normal levels of testosterone.

True, different areas have different definitions of the range.

From my understanding, the reference level that you must be under if recieving HRT is lower than what a person with normal levels of test could be at. Which eliminates my concerns above. And is a pretty fair way to do it imo.

seadnamac

Mellor wrote: »

Not very well informed is an understatement. You basically haven't a clue what you are talking about. I'm not tryign to put you down, but your comments make little sense.

A bit redundant no? Look, taking everything he is saying at face value you are probably absolutely correct in everything your saying. I just don't particularily believe him. Chael Sonnen had a pretty good story too and it turned out he was fully of sh*t. Unless you're a medical professional you can't be sure of what the possible benefits of going on these treatments are for a fighter and just how easy it is to find a doctor to run some tests and diagnose you with low testerone. I think there's more to it, you don't, fair enough.

JoeyJJ

BJ Penn also thinks there is something behind it. I listened to MMA hour interview and he sounded sincere however people sometimes lie.

scooby2791

I really doubt he is lying. The difference between his situation and Chael Sonnen's situation is Chael told nobody he was on TRT, he kept it quiet from the UFC,AC's,Dana and everyone else really. He got caught by failing the drug test.

Nate did not piss dirty. He notified the UFC when he found out last August, they allowed him to go on TRT. After the Miller fight NJAC asked him to stop treatment for 8 weeks to determine whether he needed TRT or not. NJAC had their OWN endocrinologist & doctors check him out and determined he needed TRT. Every step of the way he was in contact with the UFC. If he really is lying about all this I'd imagine Dana would have made a press conference by now stating that neither he nor his doctors or AC's had any knowledge of Nates condition. He was released for putting them under pressure by leaving them with no main event on the day of the weigh ins, if it was through injury Dana wouldn't have minded, but it was something Nate was in control of per se. He made a mistake and he knows he did. He'll be back in the UFC soon.

Xlami

scooby2791 wrote: »

I really doubt he is lying. The difference between his situation and Chael Sonnen's situation is Chael told nobody he was on TRT, he kept it quiet from the UFC,AC's,Dana and everyone else really. He got caught by failing the drug test.

Nate did not piss dirty. He notified the UFC when he found out last August, they allowed him to go on TRT. After the Miller fight NJAC asked him to stop treatment for 8 weeks to determine whether he needed TRT or not. NJAC had their OWN endocrinologist & doctors check him out and determined he needed TRT. Every step of the way he was in contact with the UFC. If he really is lying about all this I'd imagine Dana would have made a press conference by now stating that neither he nor his doctors or AC's had any knowledge of Nates condition. He was released for putting them under pressure by leaving them with no main event on the day of the weigh ins, if it was through injury Dana wouldn't have minded, but it was something Nate was in control of per se. He made a mistake and he knows he did. He'll be back in the UFC soon.

Yes I agree with you, and the point I was trying to make is that IMO it's a bit double standard of the UFC. Nate tried to go about it the right way and got fired whereas Chael was deemed by Keith Kaizer to have told no one and yet will be allowed fight in the UFC once his suspension is up.

scooby2791

Xlami wrote: »

Yes I agree with you, and the point I was trying to make is that IMO it's a bit double standard of the UFC. Nate tried to go about it the right way and got fired whereas Chael was deemed by Keith Kaizer to have told no one and yet will be allowed fight in the UFC once his suspension is up.

Nate was let go because the UFC allowed him to go on TRT once he was within the ranges allowed by the PSAC, he failed to do so he also left them without a main event the day before the fight, thats what cost him his job in the UFC. Dana has a short fuse got pissed off and just reacted instantly. I imagine he does regret it a bit and did have good things to say about Nate afterwards so I can definitely see Nate back in the UFC after 1 or 2 fights elsewhere.
Chael pissed dirty but came up with a reasonable excuse and got away with it. I still think Chael should be out of the UFC, especially after the money laundering malarchy aswel.

seadnamac

Pretty interesting words from Marquarts own trainer Trevor Wittman....

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2011/6/29/2250438/ufc-nate-marquardt-trainer-sees-trt-issue-in-black-and-white

seadnamac

scooby2791 wrote: »

I really doubt he is lying. The difference between his situation and Chael Sonnen's situation is Chael told nobody he was on TRT, he kept it quiet from the UFC,AC's,Dana and everyone else really. He got caught by failing the drug test.

Nate did not piss dirty. He notified the UFC when he found out last August, they allowed him to go on TRT. After the Miller fight NJAC asked him to stop treatment for 8 weeks to determine whether he needed TRT or not. NJAC had their OWN endocrinologist & doctors check him out and determined he needed TRT. Every step of the way he was in contact with the UFC. If he really is lying about all this I'd imagine Dana would have made a press conference by now stating that neither he nor his doctors or AC's had any knowledge of Nates condition. He was released for putting them under pressure by leaving them with no main event on the day of the weigh ins, if it was through injury Dana wouldn't have minded, but it was something Nate was in control of per se. He made a mistake and he knows he did. He'll be back in the UFC soon.

No they didn't. They made him submit to a series of blood tests to prove that he needed the exemption. One of those tests has since come back with levels beyond what's allowed and his exemption has been formally rejected by New Jersey.

You also say the UFC "allowed him" to go TRT. I don't think it's a matter of them allowing it, as once he has a doctors prescription/approval I don't think they have the power to stop him. The skeptiscm arises from how easy it is to find a doctor to prescribe this and what really constitutes a low level in the first place...

http://mmajunkie.com/news/24201/medical-beat-in-mma-testosterone-replacement-therapy-is-too-ripe-for-abuse.mma

El Guapo!

Well why don't the UFC have their own doctors that fighters have to use. Or a list of UFC approved doctors from all over the world who are constantly in touch with the UFC and abide by their regulations regarding the frequency of testing etc.

MrStuffins

Im just watching the MMA Hour now, Just as well they didnt let him fight. If he had've started talking in the Octogon, Rick Story probably would've been bored to death!

scooby2791

seadnamac wrote: »

No they didn't. They made him submit to a series of blood tests to prove that he needed the exemption. One of those tests has since come back with levels beyond what's allowed and his exemption has been formally rejected by New Jersey.

You also say the UFC "allowed him" to go TRT. I don't think it's a matter of them allowing it, as once he has a doctors prescription/approval I don't think they have the power to stop him. The skeptiscm arises from how easy it is to find a doctor to prescribe this and what really constitutes a low level in the first place...

http://mmajunkie.com/news/24201/medical-beat-in-mma-testosterone-replacement-therapy-is-too-ripe-for-abuse.mma

He fought in New Jersey, and beat Dan Miller. He said in the interview they had him do a series of blood tests AND have an endocrinologist analyse the results(he said all this himself in the interview) to determine whether he needed it or not in which case he was allowed use it. Because he was off treatment for 8 weeks, his doctor said he would need more aggressive treatment to be ready for the Story fight, this is where the levels became too high. It was a mistake on his part in that respect

The UFC aren't just going to let a fighter go on TRT because he says he needs to. They have their own doctors to check him out, same with AC's - NJAC allowed him to fight while on TRT. Its all legit as far as I'm concerned, he just thought he would be within range for the Story fight but left it too late to make sure.

seadnamac

scooby2791 wrote: »

He fought in New Jersey, and beat Dan Miller. He said in the interview they had him do a series of blood tests AND have an endocrinologist analyse the results(he said all this himself in the interview) to determine whether he needed it or not in which case he was allowed use it. Because he was off treatment for 8 weeks, his doctor said he would need more aggressive treatment to be ready for the Story fight, this is where the levels became too high. It was a mistake on his part in that respect

The UFC aren't just going to let a fighter go on TRT because he says he needs to. They have their own doctors to check him out, same with AC's - NJAC allowed him to fight while on TRT. Its all legit as far as I'm concerned, he just thought he would be within range for the Story fight but left it too late to make sure.

The NJAC let him fight because he was in the process of aquiring an exemption. He has since failed the criteria and his exemption has been rejected by the NJAC...

http://mmajunkie.com/news/24196/denial-of-therapeutic-use-exemption-may-have-contributed-to-marquardts-ufc-demise.mma

Mellor

seadnamac wrote: »

A bit redundant no? Look, taking everything he is saying at face value you are probably absolutely correct in everything your saying. I just don't particularily believe him. Chael Sonnen had a pretty good story too and it turned out he was fully of sh*t. Unless you're a medical professional you can't be sure of what the possible benefits of going on these treatments are for a fighter and just how easy it is to find a doctor to run some tests and diagnose you with low testerone. I think there's more to it, you don't, fair enough.

He disclosed everything, so I stand by my comments that he wasn't "caught" as you suggested.

What was Chael's good story, he didn't disclose it, he broke the rules, he got banned.

As for "finding a doctor" to diagnosis it. The endrocronologist has to be WADA approved. so, if you are doubting those guys, its pretty mucg casts doubt on every sport out there.

I have no opinion if he was in the right or wrong, I was clear about that. And I won't until the levels are disclosed.
I just object to the backlash of "OMG, he was on 'roids, cheating scumbag" from people who don't understand the issue

Pretty interesting words from Marquarts own trainer Trevor Wittman....

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2011/6/29...lack-and-white

Interesting, yes.
Makes sense, maybe not

He is right that a decline in testosterone happens when you get older. He is wrong when he suggests that this natural decline is the reason these guys go on TRT. He is also wrong to suggest that test levels = strength, i'd expect better from a trainer. To qualify for TRT, you'd have to be at a level below the normal decline for somebody your age.

however, he may be privy to info that we don't know, if for example he knows what Nates levels were, then maybe he is right.
I just don't think that could be the case is Nate is willing to disclose his test results (THe PSAC asked him to wait untl the suspension was sortd out)

seadnamac wrote: »

The NJAC let him fight because he was in the process of aquiring an exemption. He has since failed the criteria and his exemption has been rejected by the NJAC...

http://mmajunkie.com/news/24196/denial-of-therapeutic-use-exemption-may-have-contributed-to-marquardts-ufc-demise.mma

As above, it means little until we see the levels, the limits. And which sample was over. If it was a post TRT sample, then its not unexpected.
I don't mean to single you out, but I feel you are too quick to cast him out when the facts haven't been released yet.

Mellor

If people are wondering what I mean when I keep saying facts and levels, it's basically like this, from my understanding;

The normal range for testosterone levels is 250 to 800 ng/dL
Below this, you have low testostrone. How far below before a doctor recomends TRT may vary, but ultimately the commision sets thier own approved level. For arguements sake, lets say its below 200 ng/dL

Once you, start TRT, your levels increase. And according to commision rules, they have to be below a reference level at fight time. This level varies, buts its about 270-290 for various places.
It should be immediately obvious that the level fighter can legally increase to, is in the low band of the normal range.

Say Nate tested at 300ng/dL - fails one of the conditions of his grant to undergo TRT, yet compared to normal people, his levels are in the lower section. Until we see his failed NJAC test, or the PSAC test we are onlt speculating.
This is a nessecary rule imo as it is a counter measure against training above the normal range and returning for fight time.

If Nate hadn't of declared TRT, and just did it and said nothing, the 300ng/dL result wouldn't have raised a flag. All fighters are tested for Test. Levels, and 300 would be common. The upper limit for people who are not approved for TRT is much higher. (he could of been caught for lying like Chael was though*)

As I said above, the difference between cheating and a simple mistake depend of the levels tested. Until they are released, we can't really form an opinion on Nate's situation.
People see failed a blood test and they assume juiced up to their eyeballs, I'm jsut trying to quantify these fails.




* note: I should prob also mentino Cheal Sonnen here too. It's often reported that he tested at 4x the maximum levels allowed by the CSAC. This is false.
He levels were not disclosed, but I think they were in the normal range.
It was his T/E ratio that was suspect. 4:1 is the max allowed, he tested 16:1, This is indictitive of TRT or injecting testosterone. He was banned for lying and for not disclosing TRT to the CSAC. But his total levels were possibly fine.
Which is why he is also allow to fight again by the commision.

seadnamac

Mellor wrote: »

He disclosed everything, so I stand by my comments that he wasn't "caught" as you suggested.

He was 'caught' with levels of testerone above the permitted limit. Unless you want to get into the sementics of the meaning of 'caught', I don't see what the problem is.

Mellor wrote: »

What was Chael's good story, he didn't disclose it, he broke the rules, he got banned.

Are you serious? He lied through his teeth, that was his story.

Mellor wrote: »

As for "finding a doctor" to diagnosis it. The endrocronologist has to be WADA approved. so, if you are doubting those guys, its pretty mucg casts doubt on every sport out there.

No. He used his own personal doctor, NOT an endrocronologist (link is in my previous post). A doctor who the NJSAC very explicitly advised Marquart was putting forward an incomplete request and was using protocols that were not approved by the US Anti Doping Agency. Yet even after this advice, Marquart chose to stay with this doctor, instead of going to see a specialist endrocronoligist. I wonder how long he has been using this doctor. The only specialist endrocronologist he has seen has since denied his exemption.

Mellor wrote: »

I have no opinion if he was in the right or wrong, I was clear about that. And I won't until the levels are disclosed.
I just object to the backlash of "OMG, he was on 'roids, cheating scumbag" from people who don't understand the issue

You've read the articles and you know the ins and outs of criteria and everything else, I'm not doubting that. Do you know how many theraputic usage exemptions for TRT the US Anti Doping Agency has given out? Two. Two TUEs for TRT in the history of it's ten year existence. This is not a common affliction. In fact it is extremely rare. Yet fighters like Nate Marquart, Chael Sonnen and Todd Duffee suffer from it? These high powered, explosive men, who have managed to train and compete at the highest level of physical activity for years and build pounds upon pounds of lean muscle legitimately suffer from abnormally low levels of testerone? I'm extremely sceptical, in fact, I just don't believe it.

TherapyBoy

seadnamac wrote: »

...These high powered, explosive men, who have managed to train and compete at the highest level of physical activity for years and build pounds upon pounds of lean muscle legitimately suffer from abnormally low levels of testerone...

Not saying I know anything about TRT in athletics/competitive sports so please don't jump down my throat but...

I've been taking testosterone as part of HRT for about 15 years, I'm 30 now. One of the reasons I was taking testosterone was an inability to build muscle. It took at least 10 years of TRT before I developed any sort of muscle at all. I find it hard to believe that these guys could build muscle or train to the extent they do on "abnormally low levels". No one has ever described me as high-powered, and explosive is the opposite of whatever my middle name is.

Just an opinion

threeball

People who genuinely require TRT do not have physiques like Nate Marquart. He is one of the most defined, heavily muscled athletes in the ufc. In fact, the amount of heavy weight training required to produce that physique alone would send your testosterone levels through the roof.

Mellor

seadnamac wrote: »

He was 'caught' with levels of testerone above the permitted limit. Unless you want to get into the sementics of the meaning of 'caught', I don't see what the problem is.

I was refering to caught cheating, you know this. if his level returned he was fine,
Like I said, we can't form an opinion until we know his levels.
10% over = not cheating just missed out slightly
100% = cheating

Are you serious? He lied through his teeth, that was his story.

He never went and declared his "condition" to the AC, he has multiple chances to do it and didn't. He specifically choose not to put those meds down.

I was pointing out that Chael was a liar, and didn't have the same story are Nate, who declared it.

No. He used his own personal doctor, NOT an endrocronologist (link is in my previous post). A doctor who the NJSAC very explicitly advised Marquart was putting forward an incomplete request and was using protocols that were not approved by the US Anti Doping Agency. Yet even after this advice, Marquart chose to stay with this doctor, instead of going to see a specialist endrocronoligist. I wonder how long he has been using this doctor. The only specialist endrocronologist he has seen has since denied his exemption.

I never refered to Nate in that part.
I said you are supposed to find a specialist endrocronologist approved by WADA/USADA. This was to discount your "people getting any old doctor to diagnosis" point. If Nate was refuse for using the wrong doctor, then that proves my point.

You've read the articles and you know the ins and outs of criteria and everything else, I'm not doubting that. Do you know how many theraputic usage exemptions for TRT the US Anti Doping Agency has given out? Two. Two TUEs for TRT in the history of it's ten year existence.

I not surprised. And rightly so.
How many have applied properly?

This is not a common affliction. In fact it is extremely rare. Yet fighters like Nate Marquart, Chael Sonnen and Todd Duffee suffer from it? These high powered, explosive men, who have managed to train and compete at the highest level of physical activity for years and build pounds upon pounds of lean muscle legitimately suffer from abnormally low levels of testerone? I'm extremely sceptical, in fact, I just don't believe it.

These is a very obvious reason why, if you think about it. I think me stating it counts as unfound allegations against fighter so can't say it outright.

edit: Actualy, I can mention why regarding Nate as he was open about it.
He was taking a steroid containing over the counter supp regularly. The steroid at the time was not classified as such in the US so he was free to do so legally. To so this without any folow up PCT is a recipie for disaster. This could easily cause testes to stop functioning. In fact, I'd expect it to happen.

I also don't believe these big explosive guys always suffered from low test, like you said they wouldn't get big and strong. I don't even think they suffer from it naturally. But I imagine that these kind of big guys, are more likely to screw up and do this to themselves

Mellor

threeball wrote: »

People who genuinely require TRT do not have physiques like Nate Marquart. He is one of the most defined, heavily muscled athletes in the ufc. In fact, the amount of heavy weight training required to produce that physique alone would send your testosterone levels through the roof.

True, I would be very surprised if somebody got that way naturally and suffered from low test.

fightireland

Dana tries to clear the air in this interview with Ariel H - http://www.mmafighting.com/2011/06/30/dana-white-discusses-ufc-132-nate-marquardt-and-spike-tv-situat/

MrStuffins

It's always great listening to Dana talk on these subjects because he won't beat around the bush. The only thing that makes it better is Ariel Helwani, the guy pushes questions that others might not. I'm a big fan.

rabbitinlights

It's pretty clear to see that Nate needed some extra testosterone.... look how weak he looks....

seadnamac

Mellor wrote: »

I never refered to Nate in that part.
I said you are supposed to find a specialist endrocronologist approved by WADA/USADA. This was to discount your "people getting any old doctor to diagnosis" point. If Nate was refuse for using the wrong doctor, then that proves my point.

What proves what point? You don't need an endrocronolgist to diagnose you with low testerone and put you on a treatment. You can use any doctor you want, which is what he did even after he was made aware of concerns about the doctors competence. I don't get how you think you've discounted my point.

I won't bother arguing the rest of your post as we'll just end up nit picking each other.

By the way, one of the only two TUEs for TRT that the USADA have ever given out in it's ten year history was for an olympic sailor who had just recovered from testicular cancer and had one of his testicles removed. That should give an insight into what a legimate case of low testerone for an athlete really entails.

the_doctor199

Nate Marquardt has signed a multifight, worldwide exclusive promotional deal with the British Association of Mixed Martial Arts, less than a month after he was dumped by Ultimate Fighting Championship, BAMMA vice president Liam Fisher told ESPN.com on Friday.

Full article here.

Oh_Noes

the_doctor199 wrote: »

Full article here.

Very weird move for Marquart. I wonder why he didn't end up in Bellator. Hell even MFC or Shark Fights would have been better. I'm not sure though, does anyone know if he could still fight in those promotions while signed to BAMMA? I think Paul Daley did recently. It's still very weird.

riffmongous

Maybe they want him to fight Trigg for a title? Assuming trigg beats Watson