The Food Pyramid, Safefood and non-competition entries

fatmammycat

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Jesus christ, I thought you were joking.

So did I! Wow, that's just staggering.

Hanley

So.... would we all agree that safefoods is promoting a dietary approach that will increase obesity and is damaging to long term health?

How much did those experts cost ya? I'll sell you that advice for 100 bucks.

Tefral

Surely the fact that if drop a fresh white slice of bread into a bit of water and watch the bread turn to glue would scare anyone off it?!

I cant actually believe that the poster above was telling the truth. Scary stuff altogether.

gavtron

safefood: Aileen wrote: »

I'd have to say Nesf that some of the opinions being expressed here are not at all 'mainstream'.

EXACTLY! the 'mainstream' is wrong...you've got on this forum dozens of people who have actually taken the time to read research papers, unlike your experts who, if they are like any of the dietitians I've argued with over the years won't consider anything they didn't learn in college or hasn't been in a peer reviewed journal.
Like others here, I had high hopes when some of the people from safefood came on here to have some discourse with us but trotting out the company line on everything is really annoying. I know personally you guys can't say anything, but it's just like talking to Ryanair...stubborn as fcuk.

menoscemo

The new fangled 'eatwell plate' also recommends plenty of Bread. There is also a nice picture of a box of cornflakes and a glass of orange juice included in the larger portions of the plate.

El_Dangeroso

gavtron wrote: »

won't consider anything they didn't learn in college or hasn't been in a peer reviewed journal.
L.

The problem is they haven't read enough peer-reviewed papers. If they had they would know that there is little evidence to recommend reducing sat fat.

Or maybe they have and they're hamstrung by orders from above.

I know some registered dieticians that are not allowed to say what they really think to patients.

Hanley

safefood: Aileen wrote: »

In simple terms, to eat a balanced diet you need to combine several different types of foods - from each of the main food groups - in the right amounts so your body gets all the nutrients it needs while maintaining a healthy weight.

This means you should eat:
-Plenty of bread, rice potatoes, pasta and other starchy foods

[...]

Any chance we could have this discussion without being misquoted?

How much is "plenty"?

nesf

safefood: Aileen wrote: »

In fairness, here's what it actually says on our website:

Eating well is important for all of us. In the short-term, it can help us to feel good, look our best and stay at a healthy weight. And in the long-term, a healthy, balanced diet can reduce our risk of heart disease, diabetes, osteoporosis and some cancers. But what exactly is a healthy, balanced diet?
In simple terms, to eat a balanced diet you need to combine several different types of foods - from each of the main food groups - in the right amounts so your body gets all the nutrients it needs while maintaining a healthy weight. This means you should eat:

• Plenty of bread, rice potatoes, pasta and other starchy foods
• Plenty of fruit and vegetables
• Some milk, cheese and yoghurt
• Some meat, fish, eggs, beans and other non-dairy sources of protein, and
• Just a small amount of foods and drinks high in fat and/or sugar

Separate dietary guidelines are used in the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. These guidelines use different visuals: in the Republic of Ireland the Food Pyramid is used and in Northern Ireland the Eat Well plate is used. Click on the model that applies to where you live.
More about the Food Pyramid and nutritional recommendations in the Republic of Ireland

Any chance we could have this discussion without being misquoted?

Do you not see a problem with recommending complex carbs on one hand and then recommending just "bread, pasta and rice" on the other? I mean I'd have far less (though I'd still have some problems) with recommending plenty of wholegrain bread and pasta and brown rice. Because how it's worded at the moment will have a guy walk off and start scoffing white sliced pans and loads of plain pasta which is really not a good idea nutrition-wise.

Also, aren't you unclear on things like nuts because you recommend them on one hand as a non-dairy source of protein and rule them out on the other as being high in fat even though it's very hard to say that eating a decent amount of nuts a day is a bad thing for a person diet wise.

Zamboni

safefood: Aileen wrote: »

Hi Zamboni, the FSAI convened an expert group who developed a report for the Dept of Health. The Dept. of Health then combined the expert report with research with consumers to come up with a revised pyramid.
I have looked on the FSAI website but can't seem to find the list of members for the expert group. I imagine that this is because their task is completed, but you can contact them on http://www.fsai.ie/about_us/contact_us.html

Is this the evaluation that you mentioned?

http://www.fsai.ie/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=10292
M McFEELY, CM O’BRIEN, SJ BURKE and MAT FLYNN


And if so, is this the new revision?

http://www.fsai.ie/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=10293
NM DEVANEY, CM O’BRIEN, SJ BURKE and MAT FLYNN

Thank you

Zamboni

Hanley wrote: »

Yeah. I'm going to respectfully bow out at this stage because I'll just start sniping otherwise.

There's no point even trying to debate the facts because no one is listening. They seem to have just come here for a pat on the back.

Yep.
I've been doing my best to hold off judgment but eventually self restraint breaks down.

From keeping an eye on Publicjobs.ie dieticians tend to start at around the €50,000-€60,000 bracket.
There are very well paid people in the various bodies doing a lot of nothing.
The bodies appear to overlap in some areas.

Minister for Public Expenditure Brendan Howlin is looking for public submissions on how to reduce expenditure in the public sector.
I have no doubt that there are some excellent staff and work in these public bodies but this is clearly an area that could be examined considering these bodies Dept Of Health, FSAI and north/south bodies like Safe Food (all funded by the tax payer) are clearly failing in their remit to address the obesity epidemic in any real sense.

From a simple comparison, since the introduction of the food pyramid in Ireland obesity has soared.
So either the food pryamid is wrong in which case its advocates should be assessed or the food pyramid is right and communication has failed in which case its advocates should be assessed.
Either way the bodies with the remit to address the area of obesity are ineffective.


On another aside,
If you would like a good read have a look at the important items from the minutes of the SafeFood Advisory Board.

http://www.safefood.eu/en/About-Us/Who-we-are-2/Advisory-board/Advisory-Board-Minutes/

They tend to be concerned about things like if the public prefer imperial over metric measurements...

cc87

Zamboni wrote: »

On another aside,
If you would like a good read have a look at the important items from the minutes of the SafeFood Advisory Board.

http://www.safefood.eu/en/About-Us/Who-we-are-2/Advisory-board/Advisory-Board-Minutes/

They tend to be concerned about things like if the public prefer imperial over metric measurements...

Whats worse is look at the advisory board members background
http://www.safefood.eu/en/About-Us/Who-we-are-2/Advisory-board/Advisory-Board-Members/

Closest thing to any form of nutritional qualifications is a fruit scientist.
Full of politicians and PR BSers

Roger Marbles

I think we can safely say this will be the first safefood competition where nobody wins the 100 euros.

Check the "facts" indeed.

Zamboni

Roger Marbles wrote: »

I think we can safely say this will be the first safefood competition where nobody wins the 100 euros.

Check the "facts" indeed.

Or they could buy every poster on this thread a bagel

Blatter

Zamboni wrote: »

Or they could buy every poster on this thread a bagel

Smothered in Flora

Tirabaralla

SOCCER4LIFE wrote: »

Smothered in Flora

Can I haz unsalted butter?

gavtron

Hanley wrote: »

Now... what POSSIBLE reason could the chairman of the board have for favouring grains as the main source of dietary calories.

This reeks of corrupution in the same was the original food pyramid did.

yup, agree totally, i'm pretty sure safefood didn't expect this kind of reaction either. like you said looking for a pat on the back...

Frogdog

To fellow Boards members,

• We know that there's a lot of misinformation and bad advice about nutrition in the public domain.
• We know the Food Pyramid is wrong. It's been proven scientifically and it's been proven by our own changes to our diets and the results we've seen.
• We know SafeFood's recommendations are wrong and that they are relying on the misinformation out there.

Let's try turn this thread around. If it gets locked, we can set up a new one in a more suitable location, if needed. What can we do to educate the masses? Letters to SafeFood themselves, other public health bodies, politicians, newspapers, phone shows? Would they fall on deaf ears (like we've seen here already)? I've tried educating family and friends, but because of the misinformation out there, I find it very hard to convince them fully.

Does anyone have any recommendations as to what we can do?

TommyKnocker

Frogdog wrote: »

To fellow Boards members,

• We know that there's a lot of misinformation and bad advice about nutrition in the public domain.
• We know the Food Pyramid is wrong. It's been proven scientifically and it's been proven by our own changes to our diets and the results we've seen.
• We know SafeFood's recommendations are wrong and that they are relying on the misinformation out there.

Let's try turn this thread around. If it gets locked, we can set up a new one in a more suitable location, if needed. What can we do to educate the masses? Letters to SafeFood themselves, other public health bodies, politicians, newspapers, phone shows? Would they fall on deaf ears (like we've seen here already)? I've tried educating family and friends, but because of the misinformation out there, I find it very hard to convince them fully.

Does anyone have any recommendations as to what we can do?

Hi Frogdog

I think that could be an interesting topic but I would suggest setting up a new thread for your suggested topic, and I say this for the following reasons

• This thread has a life span of June 30th, at which pont it will be closed.

• It would keep the posts in each thread together and on topic and save
  • Having to open a new thread when this is eventually closed
  • Save wasting a moderstors time asking then to trawl through this post and move the posts relevant to your topic to the new thread.
• Both threads would b easier to read as I think 2 separate discussions in the one thread would be a nightmare.

sambuka41

cailin_donn wrote: »

I remember first seeing this ad on telly one night and it's very effective. I actually felt a bit sick. It guilted me into going for a walk, so I do think it's a great ad and it's about time awareness was raised for weight issues in Ireland, I've been to Australia before and there's not half as many obese people there as over here. They have a much healthier lifestyle and attitude, my relations over there get up early to go to the gym, i don't know any Irish person (myself included) who's that committed!

These two sentences worry me, for one no one should be guilted into changing their behaviour they should be empowered to change. Guilt is a piece of crap left over from the catholic church and its rule, something it seems that safe food have picked up on.

Secondly Australia, really?? You can compare Ireland and its piss poor weather to Oz, people over there have the opportunity to get out and exercise way more in those climates than here in the rain. I've tried to walk my dog everyday this week and she will not budge when its raining (she has sensitive ears and the rain can really bother her, so the vet says!!) So there was my chance to get a tiny bit of exercise gone. (not that Im really trying hard) Basically weather and availability of local resources like swimming pools should all be taken into account.

Tirabaralla

sambuka41 wrote: »

These two sentences worry me, for one no one should be guilted into changing their behaviour they should be empowered to change. ...

Secondly Australia, really?? You can compare Ireland and its piss poor weather to Oz, people over there have the opportunity to get out and exercise way more in those climates than here in the rain. I've tried to walk my dog everyday this week and she will not budge when its raining (she has sensitive ears and the rain can really bother her, so the vet says!!) So there was my chance to get a tiny bit of exercise gone. (not that Im really trying hard) Basically weather and availability of local resources like swimming pools should all be taken into account.

I quote EMPOWERED.

And secondly...Australia, really?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obesity_in_Australia
Australia ranks 21st among the world "fattest" countries, Ireland ranks 103rd...

I suppose it depends at what you look at, if you go and take a look at the young surfers on the beaches they won't be fat. It's a matter of distorted perception, like many things, unfortunately.

And also this:
"Due to urbanization, more people are living in more dense environments, in cities where they are removed from traditional food sources and dependent on an industrial food supply," says Neville Rigby, director of policy and public affairs for the International Association for the Study of Obesity. Modernization is causing countries with small populations and few resources to depend on imported, often over-processed food. "The Western diet overwhelms, and many people are not genetically engineered to cope with this," says Rigby.

from this: http://www.forbes.com/2007/02/07/worlds-fattest-countries-forbeslife-cx_ls_0208worldfat.html

Then we can talk about "the Western diet"...as I don't think it is necessarily so comprehensive of a concept.

Eat fresh, local, drink good water, eat mostly what you were born for, prepare at home as opposite to buy industially prepared food...etc etc not easy to do nowadays but worth a try.

Zamboni

Frogdog wrote: »

Does anyone have any recommendations as to what we can do?

The problem lies with the public health infrastructure.
The Minister for Health holds ultimate responsibility but as that role changes with the electoral cycle and appointed by the Taoiseach it is not really accountable.
The Dept of Health and other various bodies involved in Public Health are staffed by unaccountable staff.

Personally I think the best thing to do is to educate yourself to source information and evaluate it critically (this applies to all areas, not just nutrition) and make your own judgments.
Pass these tools to your offspring rather than allow them to wait for inneffectual politically correct national guidleines.

You could almost y'know, spread it like a contagion...

coconut5

Safefood are hardly telling people to eat a fry for breakfast, chips and burgers for lunch, and a pizza for dinner, are they? Plus lots of snacks of crisps and chocolate during the day.

The majority of people out there aren't thick. I don't agree with the majority of the people in this thread that are moaning about the misleading information on the Safefood website. It's ridiculous. A lot of what they say is good. Fruit and vegetables are good for you! Porridge in the morning is a healthy start to your day!

Sorry, I don't get what all the fuss is about.

Roger Marbles

coconut5 wrote: »

Safefood are hardly telling people to eat a fry for breakfast, chips and burgers for lunch, and a pizza for dinner, are they? Plus lots of snacks of crisps and chocolate during the day.

The majority of people out there aren't thick. I don't agree with the majority of the people in this thread that are moaning about the misleading information on the Safefood website. It's ridiculous. A lot of what they say is good. Fruit and vegetables are good for you! Porridge in the morning is a healthy start to your day!

Sorry, I don't get what all the fuss is about.

They're recommending plenty of bread, rice, pasta which is unhealthy. They say wholegrains are a 'superfood' which couldn't be further from the truth. They recommended low saturated fat intake based on a myth that it somehow causes high rates of cardiovascular which is scientifically unproven.

They are in effect promoting an unhealthy approach to eating.

Their advisory panel consists of individuals who have no qualifications in this area, have conflicts of interest and they are a government funded organisation.

Suggesting that people in this thread are moaning when they are promoting a good spirited discussion may suit your angle but ultimately isn't the case.

It's not "ridiculous" at all to point out major problems with their guidelines when it conflicts with the scientific evidence. They asked for feedback and people to 'check the facts' after all.

A healthier approach would be something that Chris Kresser/Mark Sisson/Robb Wolf advocates. For example:

http://thehealthyskeptic.org/9-steps-to-perfect-health-2-nourish-your-body

Tirabaralla

sambuka41 wrote: »

Wow I guess its the insane amounts of beer causing it!!

Personally there is so much wrong with this campaign, I had no idea about how dated our system is here, so this thread had educated me on that point.

My personal dislike about the campaign is that it is shaming people in to doing something about their health. Real change should come from people being empowered, from ads that show the benefits of health. Not by making people feel more uncomfortable or embarrassed about their bodies, since when has that tactic ever helped someone come forward and ask for help.

In a counselling setting the therapist is encouraged to offer unconditional positive regard for the client as this fosters an environment where someone feels safe enough to discuss their problems, THIS campaign on the other hand does the OPPOSITE it makes people feel judged, infected and contagious. God why would anyone wanna own up to that, or speak with someone when all they are being told is that they are in denial and spreading it to their friends and family. :mad::mad::mad:

So very agreed.

cc87

Roger Marbles wrote: »

I think we can safely say this will be the first safefood competition where nobody wins the 100 euros.

Check the "facts" indeed.

Now that this thread has being started and the other thread will probably be heavily moderated, im sure whoever gives safefood the biggest pat on the back and has there own story of weightloss will win it.

I knew it would only be a matter of time before a split like this happened, couldnt have had someone ringing Joe and having this argument about safefoods dangerous nutritional recommendations aired in public. Much easier to have it hidden away where only people who agree with each on a Health & Fitness forum will be able to see it.

Edit: Should the other thread be removed from the Health & Fitness forum since it is not really that healthy? It has shown itself to be the complete opposite of whats regularly recommended on here in fact

Roger Marbles

The first rule of the charter for this forum is "please get your facts straight".

In effect this is silencing the debate. The second video invites you to their website for advice and we documented scientifically why the advice is flawed in good nature. Therefore the discussion was relevant to the feedback asked for and adhered to the forum charter which is to "stay on topic". Furthermore it was part of a competition, now our entries have been removed from that even though we had as much right as anyone to be considered for it. It seems they were only looking for certain entries i.e. pat on the back etc. Ridiculous.

The discussion was with safefood representatives and I wager they won't appear in this thread therefore rendering this thread dead in the water.

Sad but not surprising.

Darragh

This is still linked to the competition, don't worry. I will also include these comments in my deliberation for the prize. The debate isn't silenced - I;m going to make sure Dermot and Aileen engage in this thread too.

cc87

Darragh wrote: »

This is still linked to the competition, don't worry. I will also include these comments in my deliberation for the prize. The debate isn't silenced - I;m going to make sure Dermot and Aileen engage in this thread too.

While I appreciate that you yourself Darragh will look at this thread, Dermot and Aileen have both shown a complete lack of willingness on their part to engage in a proper conversation surround the facts mentioned in this thread.

While i understand it is probably not something they are well versed in, there have been repeated requests for one of their colleagues with PhDs in nutrition to join this debate. These requests have being ignored.

This new relationship with boards.ie that safefood has begun through this competition is probably not the PR success that they were hoping for. Although, however small this hope is, maybe, just maybe, safefood can use this opportunity to see that they are failing in their mandate to improve the public health of ireland. Not only are they failing they helping to fuel the current epidemic of obesity, diabetes,heart disease and a number of other chronic and fatal conditions.

Darragh

cc87 wrote: »

While I appreciate that you yourself Darragh will look at this thread, Dermot and Aileen have both shown a complete lack of willingness on their part to engage in a proper conversation surround the facts mentioned in this thread.

While i understand it is probably not something they are well versed in, there have been repeated requests for one of their colleagues with PhDs in nutrition to join this debate. These requests have being ignored.

This new relationship with boards.ie that safefood has begun through this competition is probably not the PR success that they were hoping for. Although, however small this hope is, maybe, just maybe, safefood can use this opportunity to see that they are failing in their mandate to improve the public health of ireland. Not only are they failing they helping to fuel the current epidemic of obesity, diabetes,heart disease and a number of other chronic and fatal conditions.

Okay, here's where I get myself into trouble.

I'd like people to stop and think for a minute. And then, before they post, to think again.


It's Wednesday evening. That thread went up less than a week ago.

Do you not think in any way that it's great that safefood are here at all talking to us? That it's a big step forward to do this? That they also have their own jobs to do and are taking time out of their daily schedule to respond to the queries on Boards.ie?

I completely and absolutely 100% disagree and refute the notion that Dermot and Aileen are unwilling to engage. I know this because I talk to them daily. However, while it's very easy of the forum regulars who know, accept and participate in the discussions, culture and debate that goes on here, it's new, daunting and a challenge for them, because they're not able to post as themselves - they are representatives of an organisation that pays them to be on here. Maybe they can'[t communicate as frankly as they like, but that doesn't mean they're not willing to engage - they're just trying to do it in the appropriate and professional way they have to do this.

While i understand it is probably not something they are well versed in, there have been repeated requests for one of their colleagues with PhDs in nutrition to join this debate. These requests have being ignored.

How do you know this? Genuinely, how do you know the requests have been ignored? Just because they haven't posted that they asked them? if you're basing it on that, that's a mighty assumption to make. You mention them being "well versed" in this - how do you know their colleagues are?

Did you - or any of you - stop to think that this threat these threads are being read by everyone in safefood and that you've probably frightened many of them who aren't that internet-discussion-literate off this even before they are invited to engage? Did you ever think that some of them would have to get sign off from their bosses before they post? Because, from the tone of some of the posts, I don't think people have stopped for that minute and thought about how a Government organisation should or could engage on a forum like Boards.ie and how it's not just as easy for them as it is for other people?

maybe, just maybe, safefood can use this opportunity to see that they are failing in their mandate to improve the public health of ireland. Not only are they failing they helping to fuel the current epidemic of obesity, diabetes,heart disease and a number of other chronic and fatal conditions.

If we can prove this - if we can show safefood in a non-confrontational, logical and well communicated way, then I would consider this thread to be one of the best investments that Boards.ie or safefood have ever made.

So, I'm asking - stop the accusations that safefood don't care. They do. They just have to do this properly and I'm working with them on that. We have to take small steps. But at least we're taking them at all.

Darragh

And yes, that was a snotty reply that I probably should have thought more about, but the frustration I have in trying to bring people onto Boards.ie and have them communicate with our members only to have that fail again and again is something I have to deal with daily. It's not easy. I could do with some help on it. Dav and I both could.