Atheism or Naturalism?

marti8

marti8 wrote: »

I'm not concerned with how "most" atheists arrive at their POV. That's upto each individual. Yes, I'm sure there are folks out there who believe they speak with god on a daily basis or even "see" god - fine, doesn't bother me, I don't agree with them but let them think whatever they want, lol.

What have I observed exactly? Ok, not that it will make a difference. There have been three different times over the years that I have seen/observed "ghosts". First time when I was a kid, walking home with some cousins we passed a house where an elderly man used to live but had died, I looked up at a window and there I saw this man looking back at me with either a smile or grin on his face and "light" around him. We looked at each dead square in the eye for a couple of seconds and I ran off. Dismiss it by all means if you wish.

Second time was about 15 years later when staying in an old mill that had been renovated into a tourist hostel I caught a glimpse of a woman pass the kitchen window where I was standing making coffee - now it'd take too long to describe layout etc but they were several windows in the kitchen and outside only one path, no where for someone to vanish to basically. I was wondering who it was so I went to the next window, looked out but nobody was there or on the path. Nobody. While it was only a glimpse, a second or two, I could vaguely make out what she was wearing, you know those types of maids dresses from whatever era, Victorian lets say, it was long and dark - either brown or black. Just swept past the path and was gone. The night before the place had erupted in what folks would call paranormal activity, a very, very odd night and I wasn't the only one to experience it all but that's another story.

Third time was maybe 5 years ago when I was sleeping in bed, wake up to see a woman standing next to the bed looking down at me. An elderly lady, translucent, clothed in what seems to have been a long nightdress or something and something on her head like a hat or something (maybe a bed hat or whatever the hell they called them before) I simply closed my eyes for a few seconds, opened them again and nobody was there. I've heard of waking dreams etc and some may argue that that was what I saw however no offence but I don't dream about old ladies wearing nightdresses, lol.

Anyway, why don't I believe in god? I have no evidence of god. I consider observation as evidence.

You've no idea how much I, and many, many others can relate to the above. I've posted about it (briefly) before, here. If you experience something you can't explain it's far more rational to assume it's because of a misfiring of your brain than it is to assume it's a supernatural phenomenon.

Mark Hamill

marti8 wrote: »

I believe in the phenomena which is called a "ghost". Simple as that. Perhaps we lack the scientific ability at this present point in time, or ever, to quantify or understand what it was I and others see?

No you dont, and you didn't read my post, not the bit at the end: this is a separate point to whether or not you actually experienced a supernatural event, I am only questioning you given it a definite label when you admit you have no idea what you saw. I am not (at the moment) disputing that you saw something that cannot be explained by science. I am disputing you giving a definitive label to something when you admit that you dont know anything about it. By labeling it, you are declaring something about it. Do you see what I am saying?

Wooly Hat

If OP would emphasise that he is an agnostic I'm sure some might find it easier to accept how he reconciles this position with his position on the supernatural.

marti8

Wooly Hat wrote: »

If OP would emphasise that he is an agnostic I'm sure some might find it easier to accept how he reconciles this position with his position on the supernatural.

I was agnostic for probably close on 20 years but these days I'd use the term atheist, agnostic atheist to be more correct.

MagicMarker

So, you saw two people through a window, and another just after waking up.

Yawn.

King Mob

marti8 wrote: »

I'm not concerned with how "most" atheists arrive at their POV. That's upto each individual. Yes, I'm sure there are folks out there who believe they speak with god on a daily basis or even "see" god - fine, doesn't bother me, I don't agree with them but let them think whatever they want, lol.

But most atheists in Atheist Ireland are of this position as are most here, and that's why AI rejects all supernatural things and why people here find it odd you believe in ghosts/

marti8 wrote: »

What have I observed exactly? Ok, not that it will make a difference. There have been three different times over the years that I have seen/observed "ghosts". First time when I was a kid, walking home with some cousins we passed a house where an elderly man used to live but had died, I looked up at a window and there I saw this man looking back at me with either a smile or grin on his face and "light" around him. We looked at each dead square in the eye for a couple of seconds and I ran off. Dismiss it by all means if you wish.

So how do you know that it wasn't just a dude in the window?

marti8 wrote: »

Second time was about 15 years later when staying in an old mill that had been renovated into a tourist hostel I caught a glimpse of a woman pass the kitchen window where I was standing making coffee - now it'd take too long to describe layout etc but they were several windows in the kitchen and outside only one path, no where for someone to vanish to basically. I was wondering who it was so I went to the next window, looked out but nobody was there or on the path. Nobody. While it was only a glimpse, a second or two, I could vaguely make out what she was wearing, you know those types of maids dresses from whatever era, Victorian lets say, it was long and dark - either brown or black. Just swept past the path and was gone. The night before the place had erupted in what folks would call paranormal activity, a very, very odd night and I wasn't the only one to experience it all but that's another story.

Again how do you know it wasn't just a woman or anything that could flutter past the window and look like a woman out of the corner of the eye?

marti8 wrote: »

Third time was maybe 5 years ago when I was sleeping in bed, wake up to see a woman standing next to the bed looking down at me. An elderly lady, translucent, clothed in what seems to have been a long nightdress or something and something on her head like a hat or something (maybe a bed hat or whatever the hell they called them before) I simply closed my eyes for a few seconds, opened them again and nobody was there. I've heard of waking dreams etc and some may argue that that was what I saw however no offence but I don't dream about old ladies wearing nightdresses, lol.

That is exactly what a waking dream is.
You can declare you don't dream about something, but that doesn't make it so.

marti8 wrote: »

Anyway, why don't I believe in god? I have no evidence of god. I consider observation as evidence.

But none of those things would count as observation by any definition.
And they all seem as about as flimsy as the "observations" of people seeing angels or saints or God or whatever.
Are these observations valid? How do you explain what these people are seeing and most importantly why doesn't it apply to your "observations"?

Mark Hamill

marti8 wrote: »

First time when I was a kid, walking home with some cousins we passed a house where an elderly man used to live but had died, I looked up at a window and there I saw this man looking back at me with either a smile or grin on his face and "light" around him. We looked at each dead square in the eye for a couple of seconds and I ran off. Dismiss it by all means if you wish.

Could have been a different old man in the house picking up his relatives things (assuming the old man had died recently before the event), a picture on the wall visible to the outside.

marti8 wrote: »

Second time was about 15 years later when staying in an old mill that had been renovated into a tourist hostel I caught a glimpse of a woman pass the kitchen window where I was standing making coffee - now it'd take too long to describe layout etc but they were several windows in the kitchen and outside only one path, no where for someone to vanish to basically. I was wondering who it was so I went to the next window, looked out but nobody was there or on the path. Nobody.

You only caught a glimpse of the woman, she could have been wearing anything even remotely dark and dress like and your mind could insert the rest. As for where she went, she may have passed the windows ahead out of your notice, or she have stopped after the first window (were you saw her go by) and then gone back where she came from when you moved to the second window to see her passing by.

marti8 wrote: »

Third time was maybe 5 years ago when I was sleeping in bed, wake up to see a woman standing next to the bed looking down at me. An elderly lady, translucent, clothed in what seems to have been a long nightdress or something and something on her head like a hat or something (maybe a bed hat or whatever the hell they called them before) I simply closed my eyes for a few seconds, opened them again and nobody was there. I've heard of waking dreams etc and some may argue that that was what I saw however no offence but I don't dream about old ladies wearing nightdresses, lol.

I've had pretty messed up dreams, concerning things that aren't usually on my mind, its far from uncommon.

Nothing here seems that unexplainable.

marti8

Mark Hamill wrote: »

No you dont, and you didn't read my post, not the bit at the end: this is a separate point to whether or not you actually experienced a supernatural event, I am only questioning you given it a definite label when you admit you have no idea what you saw. I am not (at the moment) disputing that you saw something that cannot be explained by science. I am disputing you giving a definitive label to something when you admit that you dont know anything about it. By labeling it, you are declaring something about it. Do you see what I am saying?

If it walks like a duck........I'm labelling it as a "ghost" because it fits the parameters. I am not saying I don't understand what I saw, I do, to the extent that I believe I saw a "ghost" - what I don't understand is exactly what a ghost is. This is what I am saying. I can take a guess but that would be just that, a guess - as I said before.

marti8

MagicMarker wrote: »

So, you saw two people through a window, and another just after waking up.

Yawn.

Yawn away, lol.

marti8

King Mob wrote: »

But most atheists in Atheist Ireland are of this position as are most here, and that's why AI rejects all supernatural things and why people here find it odd you believe in ghosts/


So how do you know that it wasn't just a dude in the window?


Again how do you know it wasn't just a woman or anything that could flutter past the window and look like a woman out of the corner of the eye?


That is exactly what a waking dream is.
You can declare you don't dream about something, but that doesn't make it so.

But none of those things would count as observation by any definition.
And they all seem as about as flimsy as the "observations" of people seeing angels or saints or God or whatever.
Are these observations valid? How do you explain what these people are seeing and most importantly why doesn't it apply to your "observations"?

I had seen that man several timess when he was alive and it was the same man I saw in the window, although he was dead.

As I explained, there was literally nowhere for a person to go to in literally a second or two, the outlay of the yard buildings etc negates that possibility. Sommething fluttering past? This didn't flutter, it walked. I know the difference between a plastic bag and a woman dressed in a brown or black dress, lol.

By all means call it a waking dream and I will by all means call it a supernatural event. You cannot prove to me it was a waking dream and I cannot prove to you it was a supernatural event.

marti8

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Could have been a different old man in the house picking up his relatives things (assuming the old man had died recently before the event), a picture on the wall visible to the outside.


You only caught a glimpse of the woman, she could have been wearing anything even remotely dark and dress like and your mind could insert the rest. As for where she went, she may have passed the windows ahead out of your notice, or she have stopped after the first window (were you saw her go by) and then gone back where she came from when you moved to the second window to see her passing by.


I've had pretty messed up dreams, concerning things that aren't usually on my mind, its far from uncommon.

Nothing here seems that unexplainable.

1) Nope, same man. Not a picture.

2) The layout didn't allow for that. I would have seen her no matter what direction she went in.

3) I never said it was a dream, it wasn't, I was awake.

King Mob

marti8 wrote: »

I had seen that man several timess when he was alive and it was the same man I saw in the window, although he was dead.

So is it possible that it could have been his brother or a picture or even another person, with your imagination and inherently flawed human memory filling in the rest? Yes or no?

marti8 wrote: »

As I explained, there was literally nowhere for a person to go to literally a second or two, the outlay of the yard buildings etc negates that possibility. Sommething fluttering past? This didn't flutter, it walked. I know the difference between a plastic bag and a woman dressed in a brown or black dress, lol.

But you also said that it was only a moment or two out of the corner of your eye. How can you have glean this detail is that short time without really looking? And how do you know that there was no way to go? is it possible that there was a way you just didn't see or think of?

marti8 wrote: »

By all means call it a waking dream and I will by all means call it a supernatural event. You cannot prove to me it was a waking dream and I cannot prove to you it was a supernatural event.

But how do you know it was supernatural when there's a perfectly plausible, rational, and well understood explanation that clearly matches what you describe?

And you've avoided the question:
And they all seem as about as flimsy as the "observations" of people seeing angels or saints or God or whatever.
Are these observations valid? How do you explain what these people are seeing and most importantly why doesn't it apply to your "observations"?

Turtwig

marti8 wrote: »

I'm not concerned with how "most" atheists arrive at their POV. That's upto each individual. Yes, I'm sure there are folks out there who believe they speak with god on a daily basis or even "see" god - fine, doesn't bother me, I don't agree with them but let them think whatever they want, lol.

What have I observed exactly? Ok, not that it will make a difference. There have been three different times over the years that I have seen/observed "ghosts". First time when I was a kid, walking home with some cousins we passed a house where an elderly man used to live but had died, I looked up at a window and there I saw this man looking back at me with either a smile or grin on his face and "light" around him. We looked at each dead square in the eye for a couple of seconds and I ran off. Dismiss it by all means if you wish.

Second time was about 15 years later when staying in an old mill that had been renovated into a tourist hostel I caught a glimpse of a woman pass the kitchen window where I was standing making coffee - now it'd take too long to describe layout etc but they were several windows in the kitchen and outside only one path, no where for someone to vanish to basically. I was wondering who it was so I went to the next window, looked out but nobody was there or on the path. Nobody. While it was only a glimpse, a second or two, I could vaguely make out what she was wearing, you know those types of maids dresses from whatever era, Victorian lets say, it was long and dark - either brown or black. Just swept past the path and was gone. The night before the place had erupted in what folks would call paranormal activity, a very, very odd night and I wasn't the only one to experience it all but that's another story.

Third time was maybe 5 years ago when I was sleeping in bed, wake up to see a woman standing next to the bed looking down at me. An elderly lady, translucent, clothed in what seems to have been a long nightdress or something and something on her head like a hat or something (maybe a bed hat or whatever the hell they called them before) I simply closed my eyes for a few seconds, opened them again and nobody was there. I've heard of waking dreams etc and some may argue that that was what I saw however no offence but I don't dream about old ladies wearing nightdresses, lol.

Anyway, why don't I believe in god? I have no evidence of god. I consider observation as evidence.

On a scale of 1-10 how vividly do you remember these instances?

marti8

marti8 wrote: »

3) I never said it was a dream, it wasn't, I was awake.

I like how you didn't respond to my post where I gave a completely rational and understood explanation for your third experience.

marti8

King Mob wrote: »

So is it possible that it could have been his brother or a picture or even another person, with your imagination and inherently flawed human memory filling in the rest? Yes or no?


But you also said that it was only a moment or two out of the corner of your eye. How can you have glean this detail is that short time without really looking? And how do you know that there was no way to go? is it possible that there was a way you just didn't see or think of?


But how do you know it was supernatural when there's a perfectly plausible, rational, and well understood explanation that clearly matches what you describe?

And you've avoided the question:
And they all seem as about as flimsy as the "observations" of people seeing angels or saints or God or whatever.
Are these observations valid? How do you explain what these people are seeing and most importantly why doesn't it apply to your "observations"?

Yes or no? Lol, if you want to go that route one could always argue there are no definites in life, we can know nothing for certain, we cannot even say science is accurate, we have to then question everything, always, non-stop, all the time. Am I even typing now or am I dreaming? Did you just ask me a question or did you just imagine you asked me a question? And blah blah blah....lol Could it have been his brother (if he had a brother) Yes, sure, Do I believe it was? No. We're back at square one which is where we'll always end up.

Nope, I stayed there for a few weeks so knew the layout. All it takes is a couple of seconds to make out a figure, possibly just a second.

I haven't heard any plausible, rational explanations to date.

marti8

Malty_T wrote: »

On a scale of 1-10 how vividly do you remember these instances?

That'd be a 10.

CerebralCortex

marti8 wrote: »

Yes or no? Lol, if you want to go that route one could always argue there are no definites in life, we can know nothing for certain, we cannot even say science is accurate, we have to then question everything, always, non-stop, all the time. Am I even typing now or am I dreaming? Did you just ask me a question or did you just imagine you asked me a question? And blah blah blah....lol Could it have been his brother (if he had a brother) Yes, sure, Do I believe it was? No. We're back at square one which is where we'll always end up.

Nope, I stayed there for a few weeks so knew the layout. All it takes is a couple of seconds to make out a figure, possibly just a second.

I haven't heard any plausible, rational explanations to date.

Hallucination.

marti8

gvn wrote: »

I like how you didn't respond to my post where I gave a completely rational and understood explanation for your third experience.

I read it qucikly and what you are saying is possible but then many things are possible. However again I'll contend I was awake not asleep, I was awake.

Atheism and the belief in so-called "ghosts" are not mutually exclusive. Naturalism and the belief in so-called "ghosts" are mutually exclusive.

Mark Hamill

marti8 wrote: »

If it walks like a duck........I'm labelling it as a "ghost" because it fits the parameters. I am not saying I don't understand what I saw, I do, to the extent that I believe I saw a "ghost" - what I don't understand is exactly what a ghost is. This is what I am saying. I can take a guess but that would be just that, a guess - as I said before.

Ok, but you understand why this contradicts what you said earlier ("do I know what they are etc etc - no. I know nothing about them other than they exist.")? I'm not trying to get one over on you or anything, but you claimed not to know anything about what these things are while at the same time, labeling them (meaning you knew enough about them to label them).
So you that the spirits of dead people can roam the earth as ghosts?

marti8

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Hallucination.

Prove it.

marti8

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Ok, but you understand why this contradicts what you said earlier ("do I know what they are etc etc - no. I know nothing about them other than they exist.")? I'm not trying to get one over on you or anything, but you claimed not to know anything about what these things are while at the same time, labeling them (meaning you knew enough about them to label them).
So you that the spirits of dead people can roam the earth as ghosts?

I'm agnostic on that. And no I see no contradiction whatsoever - I believe in ghosts, that is what are termed ghosts, but I do not claim to know what ghosts are, that is all I am saying. I will say I think it's logical enough to think that ghosts were once living people but this is simply a guess.

marti8

marti8 wrote: »

I read it qucikly and what you are saying is possible but then many things are possible. However again I'll contend I was awake not asleep, I was awake.

It appears you've read my post too quickly. If you read it again you'll see that when I experience what I experience--sights, sounds, smells, visions, etc.--I'm awake. I also said that about 10% of the time these hallucinations will manifest themselves in the guise of a human figure, and that while I'm experiencing this figure it's impossible for me to tell if it's actually there or not, even though I'm awake; it's equivilant to a real person standing there.

How is that not what you've experienced, tell me?

Mark Hamill

marti8 wrote: »

1) Nope, same man. Not a picture.

How do you know? How much distance was between you and the window?

marti8 wrote: »

2) The layout didn't allow for that. I would have seen her no matter what direction she went in.

You where inside, looking out through a kitchen window and there wasn't anywhere she could have gone that was out of your line of sight? Why are you so sure that the thing you caught a glimpse of was a woman?

marti8 wrote: »

3) I never said it was a dream, it wasn't, I was awake.

How do you know? i.e. What makes you different from those who have claimed to have seen angels or saints whilst awake in bed?

marti8

gvn wrote: »

It appears you've read my post too quickly. If you read it again you'll see that when I experience what I experience--sights, sounds, smells, visions, etc.--I'm awake. I also said that about 10% of the time these hallucinations will manifest themselves in the guise of a human figure, and that while I'm experiencing this figure it's impossible for me to tell if it's actually there or not, even though I'm awake; it's equivilant to a real person standing there.

How is that not what you've experienced, tell me?

How is that not a paranormal event that you are experiencing, tell me?:P

lolo62

hi OP i think youve raised a really good point here.

ive been following the thread and finding it really interesting. youve said a few times that you are agnostic atheist....agnostic (according to good old wikipedia) means the truth value of certain phenomenon is unknown or unknowable

it sounds to me what you are saying is you 'know' what you saw with the ghosts and i think this is where the problem is as it would appear to contradict an agnostic viewpoint...

im not trying to undermine you here (i personally believe in ghosts) i think youre presenting a really good argument but i think the second you say i am atheist/agnostic/xyz there is a box youre supposed to get in and a whole load of other boxes that will contradict your chosen one and so from there words become limiting...

Zombrex

marti8 wrote: »

Prove it.

You asked for a rational explanation. Whether it was or wasn't a hallucination, that is a rational explanation for it.

If you ignore it this you just demonstrate you don't really care for rational explanations, and are just wishing to believe what you want to be true.

Mark Hamill

marti8 wrote: »

I'm agnostic on that. And no I see no contradiction whatsoever - I believe in ghosts, that is what are termed ghosts, but I do not claim to know what ghosts are, that is all I am saying. I will say I think it's logical enough to think that ghosts were once living people but this is simply a guess.

You are claiming that ghosts were once living people, are you not?

marti8

marti8 wrote: »

How is that not a paranormal event that you are experiencing, tell me?:P

Because it's a well documented and understood sleep phenomenon, a type of parasomnia. I could conclude that it's a paranormal phenomenon, but that takes more assumptions than to conclude that it's a well understood parasomnia. Don't multiply entities beyond necessity, a wise man once said.

Now, answer my question:

Why do you conclude that your experiences--your third experience specifically--has a foundation in the paranormal when I've just given you an explanation which requires less assumptions?

Zombrex

marti8 wrote: »

I will say I think it's logical enough to think that ghosts were once living people but this is simply a guess.

What criteria are you using to say that such a belief is logical, given that it is at odds with everything we know about biology and physics?

marti8

Mark Hamill wrote: »

How do you know? How much distance was between you and the window?


You where inside, looking out through a kitchen window and there wasn't anywhere she could have gone that was out of your line of sight? Why are you so sure that the thing you caught a glimpse of was a woman?


How do you know? i.e. What makes you different from those who have claimed to have seen angels or saints whilst awake in bed?

1) I cann tell the difference between a photo and a person. Disatnce between me and the window, 15ft maybe.

2) No, she did go out of my line of sight when she passed the window, I then went at once to the next window and there was nobody there. Not only that there was no woamn staying at the hostel at that time, in fact I was the only person there that morning. Why am I so sure it was a woman - you know you're right, maybe it was man in drag Body shape, posture, dress, face, hair. The face, hair are a blur - dress I recall, posture was upright, walking purposefully and body shape, well, she didn't have a beer belly.

3) I don't calim any religious significance, that is what makes it different. I don't see angels or saints or any of that. Don't believe in that stuff.