Atheism or Naturalism?

marti8 · 21-06-2011 11:02am #1

I'm atheist (agnostic atheist) and I'm wondering why Atheist Ireland call themselves that when they say they refute anything supernatural and not simply a deity? As an atheist I don't believe in a god but I do believe in what people would call "ghosts". But I only believe in that because of first hand experiencee etc - had I not had first hand experience I wouldn't believe in that.

Atheism is soley about the lack of a belief in a deity - nothing else. Atheism doesn't address any other issue - not ghosts, not unicorns, not vampires, not whatever - soley deities. So, why then does Atheist Ireland say on it's site "Working to build a rational, ethical and secular society free from superstition and supernaturalism"? I'm atheist yet I believe in what would be termed the supernatural. What Atheist Ireland espouse is not simply atheism, it is probably best described as naturalism.

Is it not akin to say the Vegan Society calling themselves the Vegetarian Society - while yes they are vegetarian that is not their "end point", their end point isn't vegetarianism, it's veganism. Imagine they then state that eating eggs or drinking milk should be avoided, vegetarians would be scratching their heads and wondering why - we're vegetarians, not vegans........Same rationale applies to Atheist Ireland claiming they refute all things supernatural, sorry but that ain't atheism, that is something else.

Your thoughts?

MagicMarker · 21-06-2011 11:04am

Doesn't AI have an email address or something?

marti8 · 21-06-2011 11:07am

MagicMarker wrote: »

Doesn't AI have an email address or something?

Yep, they do. Isn't Boards.ie a forum or something? :rolleyes:

CerebralCortex · 21-06-2011 11:51am

OP I'd love to know how you got as far as being an atheist and not have a naturalistic world-view? There is no evidence for ghosts by the way. Anecdotes, intuitions and untestable hypothesis do not count as evidence!

marti8 · 21-06-2011 12:04pm

CerebralCortex wrote: »

OP I'd love to know how you got as far as being an atheist and not have a naturalistic world-view? There is no evidence for ghosts by the way. Anecdotes, intuitions and untestable hypothesis do not count as evidence!

Well, not all atheists are naturalist but all naturalists are atheist.

Atheism only deals with the lack of belief in a god. I lack that belief therefore by definition I am atheist. I however do not negate all things which could be considered supernatural. Personally I've arrived at this conclusion from experience, observation. I believe what I have seen, experienced, observed. I guess empiricism is the term you could use, that's empiricism in the philosophical sense, not empirical research in the scientific sense. Unless I have misunderstood the concept, lol.

AhSureTisGrand · 21-06-2011 12:43pm

While "supernatural" is to me an utterly meaningless word, I do also have misgivings about the name "Atheist Ireland". It seems to me that the organisation's views are better described as anti-theism or secularism (views which I generally agree with, mind). Such a name leads people to believe AI are promoting the "atheist agenda", when in reality that very term is nonsense, as there can be no atheist agenda

CerebralCortex · 21-06-2011 12:49pm

marti8 wrote: »

Well, not all atheists are naturalist but all naturalists are atheist.

Atheism only deals with the lack of belief in a god. I lack that belief therefore by definition I am atheist. I however do not negate all things which could be considered supernatural. Personally I've arrived at this conclusion from experience, observation. I believe what I have seen, experienced, observed. I guess empiricism is the term you could use, that's empiricism in the philosophical sense, not empirical research in the scientific sense. Unless I have misunderstood the concept, lol.

A very irrational world-view!

Turtwig · 21-06-2011 12:55pm

CerebralCortex wrote: »

A very irrational world-view!

But still an atheistic one.:D

pH · 21-06-2011 12:55pm

marti8 wrote: »

Is it not akin to say the Vegan Society calling themselves the Vegetarian Society - while yes they are vegetarian that is not their "end point", their end point isn't vegetarianism, it's veganism. Imagine they then state that eating eggs or drinking milk should be avoided, vegetarians would be scratching their heads and wondering why - we're vegetarians, not vegans........Same rationale applies to Atheist Ireland claiming they refute all things supernatural, sorry but that ain't atheism, that is something else.

Your thoughts?

No, it would be more akin to the vegetarian society taking a position on animal welfare - say the treatment of chickens and cows. This wouldn't be strictly anything to do with vegetarianism, they may also take a position on healthy eating again not strictly anything to do with "not eating meat".

I take it that if you believe in ghosts, you believe that something, a spirit/ soul can survive death of a body and live on. I take it you believe also that conciousness is not totally produced by a material process in the brain - in that you believe that this spirit can exist after the body/brain is gone.

What to you believe has happened to the millions of people who have died? Do they all become ghosts? What happens then?

marti8 · 21-06-2011 12:58pm

CerebralCortex wrote: »

A very irrational world-view!

Why?

marti8 · 21-06-2011 1:00pm

pH wrote: »

No, it would be more akin to the vegetarian society taking a position on animal welfare - say the treatment of chickens and cows. This wouldn't be strictly anything to do with vegetarianism, they may also take a position on healthy eating again not strictly anything to do with "not eating meat".

I take it that if you believe in ghosts, you believe that something, a spirit/ soul can survive death of a body and live on. I take it you believe also that conciousness is not totally produced by a material process in the brain - in that you believe that this spirit can exist after the body/brain is gone.

What to you believe has happened to the millions of people who have died? Do they all become ghosts? What happens then?

I believe in so-called "ghosts", do I know what they are etc etc - no. I know nothing about them other than they exist. I can take guesses but that is all they are, guesses.

MagicMarker · 21-06-2011 1:02pm

marti8 wrote: »

I know nothing about them other than they exist

You know they exist? Well, please share with the rest of the class, how do you know this?

Mark Hamill · 21-06-2011 1:10pm

marti8 wrote: »

I believe in so-called "ghosts", do I know what they are etc etc - no. I know nothing about them other than they exist. I can take guesses but that is all they are, guesses.

If you dont know anything about them, how do you know they are ghosts?

marti8 · 21-06-2011 1:19pm

MagicMarker wrote: »

You know they exist? Well, please share with the rest of the class, how do you know this?

Empiricism. I "know" they exist because I have observed that they exist.

Turtwig · 21-06-2011 1:21pm

marti8 wrote: »

Empiricism. I "know" they exist because I have observed that they exist.

Please explain what you observed in detail.:)

marti8 · 21-06-2011 1:21pm

Mark Hamill wrote: »

If you dont know anything about them, how do you know they are ghosts?

I use the term "ghost" as this is the standard use of the term, you can call them jbsdjhbkjhjkgf if you like. Whatever word you choose to use doesn't change the basics of it. I believe in the phenomena called "ghosts".

marti8 · 21-06-2011 1:26pm

Malty_T wrote: »

Please explain what you observed in detail.:)

Why?

It's pointless in a way, those who believe in them will still believe, those who don't, won't. One can most certainly be an atheist and believe in the supernatural, one cannot be a naturalist and believe in the supernatural however.

Turtwig · 21-06-2011 1:30pm

marti8 wrote: »

Why? It's pointless in a way, those who believe in them will still believe, those who don't, won't..

Perhaps, but if that were true, how did you come to believe in ghosts in the first place?

marti8 · 21-06-2011 1:42pm

Malty_T wrote: »

Perhaps, but if that were true, how did you come to believe in ghosts in the first place?

If what were true?

Why do I believe in ghosts? I've said why already, because of experience, observation. Empiricism.

coffee_cake · 21-06-2011 1:45pm

I reckon OP has a point

Didn't we have a discussion on this a while back, I can't remember the outcome - surely atheism doesn't preclude a belief in some supernatural stuff anyway

Wooly Hat · 21-06-2011 2:37pm

The word "supernatural" has more than one meaning. It has the same meaning as the word paranormal, in the sense of alien life and ghosts, but it's also used in the sense of beyond the natural, like a divinity. It has two different senses so both AI and OP are right.

I must also point out the distinction between theism and deism. Deism is the belief that the universe is the work of a divinity that does not interfere in human affairs. Theism is the belief that a divinity created and sustains the universe, and is a being with whom you have a personal realationship and so on.

It's very easy to accept the arguments against both positions, and I am an atheist. But I'm an atheist who is also open to the paranormal. I have witnessed objects in the sky (which made me rethink everything, I might add) and now I'm definitely quite open to the possibility of life elsewhere in the universe.

And furthermore, I have a deep convinction about the authenticity of other types of spiritual experiences which are regularly dismissed by skeptics. So I'm not a positivist with regard to rationalism; or naturalism, or materialism.

I try to keep in mind that these little arguments for and against the existence of god is very much so a small - and even petty - earthly endeavour. Being a high flying spirit, I'm above all that.

Beruthiel · 21-06-2011 3:00pm

marti8 wrote: »

I believe in the phenomena called "ghosts".

marti8 wrote:

I am atheist

So, I attempted to input both comments into my brain, and, nope, it's just not working for me.
Does not compute.

Can you please explain in more detail how you can be an atheist and still believe in ghosts?

marti8 · 21-06-2011 3:10pm

Beruthiel wrote: »

So, I attempted to input both comments into my brain, and, nope, it's just not working for me.
Does not compute.

Can you please explain in more detail how you can be an atheist and still believe in ghosts?

Do you know what atheism refers to? I'll give you a hint it doesn't refer to "ghosts". It solely refers to a lack of belief in a deity - not a lack of belief in anything else.

King Mob · 21-06-2011 3:20pm

marti8 wrote: »

Do you know what atheism refers to? I'll give you a hint it doesn't refer to "ghosts". It solely refers to a lack of belief in a deity - not a lack of belief in anything else.

Most atheists here came to their position through rational and critical thought.
Applying these same thoughts to the idea of ghosts leads us to the same conclusion as it does with God.

You've already explained that you believe in ghost because you've "observed" them.
I'm sure you're aware that there's people who claim they have "observed" God.

So two questions before a discussion can continue:
What exactly have you "observed"?
And why do you not believe in God?

Turtwig · 21-06-2011 3:21pm

marti8 wrote: »

If what were true?

Why do I believe in ghosts? I've said why already, because of experience, observation. Empiricism.

If what you said about those who believe will continue to believe and those who don't don't is true, then how did you come to believe in ghosts in the first place?:) To put it another way, you changed your own belief, what makes you think I won't?

Turtwig · 21-06-2011 3:22pm

marti8 wrote: »

If what were true?

Why do I believe in ghosts? I've said why already, because of experience, observation. Empiricism.

If what you said about those who believe will continue to believe and those who don't don't is true, then how did you come to believe in ghosts in the first place?:) To put it another way, you changed your own belief, what makes you think I won't?

marti8 · 21-06-2011 3:28pm

Malty_T wrote: »

If what you said about those who believe will continue to believe and those who don't don't is true, then how did you come to believe in ghosts in the first place?:) To put it another way, you changed your own belief, what makes you think I won't?

Because I don't think anyone will change their beliefs or lack of becaue of some guy posting on an internet forum

I'm not here to make other atheists believe in the supernatural. Not at all. I'm just realting my POV. I think AI do a good job overall - except when it comes to how they term themselves "atheist", as I said it's like the vegan terming themselves "vegetarian", maybe it's all semantics but words matter nonetheless.

Wooly Hat · 21-06-2011 3:45pm

marti8 wrote: »

how they term themselves "atheist"...

Atheism means someone who is not a theist. Because a person usually does not define themselves by what they don't believe, AI use the term supernatual as general term when rejecting all theism/deism/divinity/God/monotheism/polytheism.

marti8 · 21-06-2011 3:59pm

King Mob wrote: »

Most atheists here came to their position through rational and critical thought.
Applying these same thoughts to the idea of ghosts leads us to the same conclusion as it does with God.

You've already explained that you believe in ghost because you've "observed" them.
I'm sure you're aware that there's people who claim they have "observed" God.

So two questions before a discussion can continue:
What exactly have you "observed"?
And why do you not believe in God?

I'm not concerned with how "most" atheists arrive at their POV. That's upto each individual. Yes, I'm sure there are folks out there who believe they speak with god on a daily basis or even "see" god - fine, doesn't bother me, I don't agree with them but let them think whatever they want, lol.

What have I observed exactly? Ok, not that it will make a difference. There have been three different times over the years that I have seen/observed "ghosts". First time when I was a kid, walking home with some cousins we passed a house where an elderly man used to live but had died, I looked up at a window and there I saw this man looking back at me with either a smile or grin on his face and "light" around him. We looked at each dead square in the eye for a couple of seconds and I ran off. Dismiss it by all means if you wish.

Second time was about 15 years later when staying in an old mill that had been renovated into a tourist hostel I caught a glimpse of a woman pass the kitchen window where I was standing making coffee - now it'd take too long to describe layout etc but they were several windows in the kitchen and outside only one path, no where for someone to vanish to basically. I was wondering who it was so I went to the next window, looked out but nobody was there or on the path. Nobody. While it was only a glimpse, a second or two, I could vaguely make out what she was wearing, you know those types of maids dresses from whatever era, Victorian lets say, it was long and dark - either brown or black. Just swept past the path and was gone. The night before the place had erupted in what folks would call paranormal activity, a very, very odd night and I wasn't the only one to experience it all but that's another story.

Third time was maybe 5 years ago when I was sleeping in bed, wake up to see a woman standing next to the bed looking down at me. An elderly lady, translucent, clothed in what seems to have been a long nightdress or something and something on her head like a hat or something (maybe a bed hat or whatever the hell they called them before) I simply closed my eyes for a few seconds, opened them again and nobody was there. I've heard of waking dreams etc and some may argue that that was what I saw however no offence but I don't dream about old ladies wearing nightdresses, lol.

Anyway, why don't I believe in god? I have no evidence of god. I consider observation as evidence.

Mark Hamill · 21-06-2011 4:01pm

marti8 wrote: »

I use the term "ghost" as this is the standard use of the term, you can call them jbsdjhbkjhjkgf if you like. Whatever word you choose to use doesn't change the basics of it. I believe in the phenomena called "ghosts".

No, you dont. You believe in a phenomena that you have personally experienced, one which you have no scientific explanation for. However you also admit that you dont know what this supernatural phenomena actually is, so to say you believe in ghosts makes about as much sense as saying that, because of experiencing this phenomenon, you belief in thundercats. "Ghosts" (like "thundercats"), is defined, it means a specific thing. You dont know what specific thing you saw, so labeling it as a ghost is wrong.

(NB: this is a separate point to whether or not you actually experienced a supernatural event, I am only questioning you given it a definite label when you admit you have no idea what you saw)

marti8 · 21-06-2011 4:05pm

Mark Hamill wrote: »

No, you dont. You believe in a phenomena that you have personally experienced, one which you have no scientific explanation for. However you also admit that you dont know what this supernatural phenomena actually is, so to say you believe in ghosts makes about as much sense as saying that, because of experiencing this phenomenon, you belief in thundercats. "Ghosts" (like "thundercats"), is defined, it means a specific thing. You dont know what specific thing you saw, so labeling it as a ghost is wrong.

(NB: this is a separate point to whether or not you actually experienced a supernatural event, I am only questioning you given it a definite label when you admit you have no idea what you saw)

I believe in the phenomena which is called a "ghost". Simple as that. Perhaps we lack the scientific ability at this present point in time, or ever, to quantify or understand what it was I and others see?

Atheism or Naturalism?

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