Council vote on new Westside Tesco

Jack_Plumber

TWO SUBMISSIONS TO RAHOON RETAIL DEVELOPMENT

January 26, 2012 - 4:28pm TWO SUBMISSIONS TO RAHOON RETAIL DEVELOPMENT


Two submissions have been lodged to plans for a controversial retail centre in Westside.
Micheál Ó' hUigínn has applied for planning permission to demolish the existing commercial premises at the Rahoon Road in Westside.
In its place, he hopes to build a supermarket selling both food and non-food products.




Source: http://www.galwaynews.ie/23956-two-submissions-rahoon-retail-development

Is this monkey business?

galwaycyclist wrote: »

With regret, while the protection of small retailers against predatory large-multiple stores is a laudable aim, you are not going to win that battle within the context of a planning application in Galway city.

Thats a national issue and will require national interventions such as

1) The reinstatement of the groceries order and a ban on below cost selling
2) Strict national limits on store size, type and location
3) A levy on car parking spaces at out of town shopping centres (and possibly all shopping centres) - so as to level the playing pitch for town-centre businesses.

We lost those battles years ago (I know I was involved at the time). Our current minister for the environment proposes further liberalisation of the market.

Under the current regime we are going to have large multiples running "hyper market-type" operations. That issue in my opinion is outside our local capacity to influence. If we are to have such operations, the question becomes how do we locate and constrain them so as to minimise adverse impacts and maximise positive impacts?

Mrs OBumble

Little My wrote: »

Another point made much earlier about the amount of parks in the area - there aren't any as far as I know. Playing fields, yes, but no parks.

The disused land around Dunnes Knocknacarra would make a great nature trail type park.

What does a "park" have in your eyes?

galwaycyclist

Jack_Plumber wrote: »

Is this monkey business?

Not clear what you are asking? RGDATA and Irish Cycling Campaign among others took a strong line against the abolition of the groceries order in 2005

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/1108/groceries.html

You can't get people to walk or cycle to shops that aren't there anymore.

2rkehij30qtza5

WHY are people so opposed to it? Surely bringing more business into a predominantly disadvantaged area of Galway is a good thing? More employment during the construction of the project and more employment when it is operational?
Dunnes in Westside is a disgrace...they are poorly stocked and you have to go to Knocknacarra Dunnes if you want to make sure you'll actually be able to buy everything on your shopping list, because chances are Dunnes in Westside won't have it.
My cousin is a wheelchair user and she can NEVER get parking in Westside because of all the able bodied ignoramuses who park in the disabled spots.
I worked in Westside Dunnes as a student and I also worked in Joyces in Knocknacarra and I can safely say that the amount of robbing and thievery that went on in Dunnes Westside compared to Joyces was just shocking!!!!!!:eek: I could write books on what I witnessed in that place.
saying all that, a new shopping centre with a good Tesco and an opportunity for people to gain employment in the area is nothing but a good thing. Might improve the area no-end.

fishy fishy

can you explain what you mean by "predominantly disadvantaged" and how a large hypermarket on stilts will be advantageous to the people living directly in it's path (mostly elderly people who have lived in the area since the area was built - i.e. 50 - 70 years ago).

BhoscaCapall

fishy fishy wrote: »

can you explain what you mean by "predominantly disadvantaged"

Full of scumbags :pac:

nb: not saying everyone in Westside is, I live there too, but there are a lot of shady characters let's be honest.

and how a large hypermarket on stilts will be advantageous to the people living directly in it's path (mostly elderly people who have lived in the area since the area was built - i.e. 50 - 70 years ago).

Having a supermarket on your doorstep is quite advantageous...

They should just take-over the Dunnes that's there. Such a grim experience going in there..

Little My

JustMary wrote: »

What does a "park" have in your eyes?

A park (in the public park sense) is " a large area of land with grass and trees surrounded by fences or walls, which is specially arranged so that people can walk in it for pleasure or children can play in it".

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/park_1?q=park

So its landscaped grounds, trees, plants, flowers etc. A little bit of nature for people without gardens to enjoy. Somewhere nice to go for a walk or a picnic.

What parks in the area were you thinking of?

2rkehij30qtza5

fishy fishy wrote: »

can you explain what you mean by "predominantly disadvantaged"

No problem Fishy Fish-I'll explain it to you. A disadvantaged area is classified under the following headings:
Dependency and unemployment,
Social Class and education
Vulnerable Groups
Resources

Under all of these categories, Galway City Council has named Westside and 4 other areas of Galway City as "disadvantaged". One such report identifying Westside as a disadvantaged area is Galway City Council's Rapid Strategic Plan. There are many other City Council and DoCHLG (and former DoEHLG) reports also naming Westside as a disadvantaged area. Almost all documents are in the public domain if you want verification on this.

and how a large hypermarket on stilts will be advantageous to the people living directly in it's path (mostly elderly people who have lived in the area since the area was built - i.e. 50 - 70 years ago).

I thought I had already stated the reasons that bringing commercial business to an area can be advantageous. Take Sandyford, Dublin 18 for example. It is the only area of Dublin where property has not dramatically decreased in value. This was on the RTE news last week.....it was said that the large amount of commercial and industrial units in the area (90% of which were built in latter years) ensured that Sandyford properties have not decreased on the same scale as any other area of Dublin. There is also a report from Daft.ie stating this from 2011.

So, in essence, bringing a large commercial
retailer to an area will bring money into the area, employment etc.

People, by their nature, tend to like living close to amenities. Hence you always see auctioneers' adverts for properties stating such things as "located within close proximity to x,y,z.....". It is likely that having a decent supermarket in close proximity would increase desire to buy/rent in the area, thus pushing up rents and house prices in the long term.

Obviously civil infrastructure would have to be in place before any such development could be considered (or at least should be conditional on planning).

But all in all, I think it could improve the area greatly and perhaps even shake up Dunnes in Westside to give the place there a face lift too!

Hope that helped clear it up for you Fishy Fish.

Tom Harward

Jack_Plumber wrote: »

TWO SUBMISSIONS TO RAHOON RETAIL DEVELOPMENT

January 26, 2012 - 4:28pm TWO SUBMISSIONS TO RAHOON RETAIL DEVELOPMENT


Two submissions have been lodged to plans for a controversial retail centre in Westside.
Micheál Ó' hUigínn has applied for planning permission to demolish the existing commercial premises at the Rahoon Road in Westside.
In its place, he hopes to build a supermarket selling both food and non-food products.




Source: http://www.galwaynews.ie/23956-two-submissions-rahoon-retail-development

Is this monkey business?

thats right

inisboffin

Wait, before this escalates into another area discussion (remember the great boards dunnes knocknacarra/rahoon war of 1872? ), is this proposed Tesco going in an area known as Westside, Rahoon, or Shantalla. I believe a lot of residents who are objecting are from Highfield. Surely this isn't considered a 'disadvantaged' area?

Serious question btw.

_Whimsical_

inisboffin wrote: »

Wait, before this escalates into another area discussion (remember the great boards dunnes knocknacarra/rahoon war of 1872? ), is this proposed Tesco going in an area known as Westside, Rahoon, or Shantalla. I believe a lot of residents who are objecting are from Highfield. Surely this isn't considered a 'disadvantaged' area?

Serious question btw.

Highfield is definitely not a disadvantaged area. Intact they won an award for best quality of life in a housing estate award last year, it was judged on air quality and upkeep of homes and green spaces among other criteria I believe. The people of Highfield and Rahoon road will see the greatest negative impact of the development.

Westside is a term that seems to encompass everywhere from shantalla to knocknacarra depending upon the context it's used in. When it's used to describe deprived areas I think it's mostly intended to refer to Rahoon. How and ever it isn't really important as in this instance the new tesco is not expected to create employment but to displace it from other supermarkets in the area and smaller shops.

One point I haven't seen addressed is that of funerals. Imagine traffic on evenings and mornings when there is one going to Rahoon cemetery.

gordongekko

[QUOTE=_Whimsical_;76770378 I think it's mostly intended to refer to Rahoon. How and ever it isn't really important as in this instance the new tesco is not expected to create employment but to displace it from other supermarkets in the area and smaller shops.[/QUOTE]

Proof please

2rkehij30qtza5

inisboffin wrote: »

Wait, before this escalates into another area discussion (remember the great boards dunnes knocknacarra/rahoon war of 1872? ), is this proposed Tesco going in an area known as Westside, Rahoon, or Shantalla. I believe a lot of residents who are objecting are from Highfield. Surely this isn't considered a 'disadvantaged' area?

Serious question btw.

It is proposed to have access onto BIshop O'Donnell Road, the section of which is in Westside.

And no Highfield Pk is not a disadvantaged estate. But Westside IS a disadvantaged area. Highfield would not technically (I think, don't have a townland map to hand) be in Westside. I am referring to the Westside area as being categorised as disadvantaged. That said not everyone who lives there is disadvantaged. But Westside is disadvantaged. And the fact that the proposed access and egress is to be onto Bishop O'D Rd will mean that this development will be in Westside!


Edited to add: I have checked out Galway City Council's designated zones. O'Huigin's site is indeed in Westside. Highfield is not. Therefore, under the zoning, the development will be in Westside and is also in the 'disadvantaged' zone, as highlighted in the Strategic plan I mentioned on a previous post (page 33 of this Galway City Co.plan). IMO bringing business to an area like this is beneficial for all reasons previously stated.

inisboffin

Maverick Kind Teapot wrote: »

It is proposed to have access onto BIshop O'Donnell Road, the section of which is in Westside.

And no Highfield Pk is not a disadvantaged estate. But Westside IS a disadvantaged area. Highfield would not technically (I think, don't have a townland map to hand) be in Westside. I am referring to the Westside area as being categorised as disadvantaged. That said not everyone who lives there is disadvantaged. But Westside is disadvantaged. And the fact that the proposed access and egress is to be onto Bishop O'D Rd will mean that this development will be in Westside!


Edited to add: I have checked out Galway City Council's designated zones. O'Huigin's site is indeed in Westside. Highfield is not. Therefore, under the zoning, the development will be in Westside and is also in the 'disadvantaged' zone, as highlighted in the Strategic plan I mentioned on a previous post (page 33 of this Galway City Co.plan). IMO bringing business to an area like this is beneficial for all reasons previously stated.

Thanks for quoting that reference (between Irish Times, Galway News and various other mentions, including on here, it has been called Rahoon, Shantalla and Westside depending who wrote the article!). Is it not fronting the Seamus Quirke Rd, not the BOD road though?

Mrs OBumble

Little My wrote: »

A park (in the public park sense) is " a large area of land with grass and trees surrounded by fences or walls, which is specially arranged so that people can walk in it for pleasure or children can play in it".

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/park_1?q=park

So its landscaped grounds, trees, plants, flowers etc. A little bit of nature for people without gardens to enjoy. Somewhere nice to go for a walk or a picnic.

What parks in the area were you thinking of?

Basically a bushing spot, so. We need more of them :rolleyes:


There are large public recreation areas in Dangan and Cappagh Park. There's a small park-like spot down in Shantalla by Sliding Rock. There's a big open green up in Highfields, by Cedarwood Close - it's even got at least one seat in it (I just saw it on StreetView!) - and it's a lot more restful than this site would be, 'cos it doesn't have a four lane dual carriageway thundering past it. There's a large bit of green wasteland between the current O'Higgins shop and David Rd - it's not a park, but could be turned into one (albiet with the same safety issues as the factory site, due to lack of houses overlooking it). If you look at the satellite view of the map link I provided earlier, you'll see lots and lots of bits of greenery with park-potential.



Re the debate about Shantalla / Highfield / Rahoon / Westside: seems to me that this site is part of the boundary between them. It's got a long precedent of industrial use, and has provided employment for a lot of people in the past. No reason why it shouldn't continue doing so.

Little My

JustMary wrote: »

There are large public recreation areas in Dangan and Cappagh Park. There's a small park-like spot down in Shantalla by Sliding Rock. There's a big open green up in Highfields, by Cedarwood Close - it's even got at least one seat in it (I just saw it on StreetView!) - and it's a lot more restful than this site would be, 'cos it doesn't have a four lane dual carriageway thundering past it. There's a large bit of green wasteland between the current O'Higgins shop and David Rd - it's not a park, but could be turned into one (albiet with the same safety issues as the factory site, due to lack of houses overlooking it). If you look at the satellite view of the map link I provided earlier, you'll see lots and lots of bits of greenery with park-potential.

No, we don't need more bushing spots, (this is a completely different issue) but I think we could do with some parks.

There are no parks in Dangan as far as I am aware. Cappagh park isn't nearby.

Sliding rock is a playground with some grass beside it.

A big open green in a housing estate is not a park.

I never said the Rahoon site would be a good place for a park, only said there aren't actually any parks nearby.

I agree that a lot of places have potential to be turned into parks.

_Whimsical_

gordongekko wrote: »

Proof please

Its the opinion of the city manager and city director of services that this development is not justified by of population considering the proximity of so many other shopping facilities. RGData are of the opinion that it has the potential to "hoover up business within a 20km radius".

Anyone who thinks that the Westside of the city can support yet another shopping centre and that it won't result in loss of custom to other such centres in the locality, particularly in the current climate, has a wonderful imagination. Clearly they see an uncharacteristically lucrative time ahead for the inhabitants of the west side of the city that is out of keeping with a countrywide economic trend or they're envisaging the population of the area dramatically increase. Neither look like realities in the forseeable future, not only in Galway but anywhere in Ireland.

Sponge Bob

Meanwhile it seems the former owners of the giant hole beside Dunnes in Knocknacarra are being taken to court by the Corpo for not filling it in when they were told to.

http://www.moritz.ie/commercial/development.asp?id=21&cat=5

The overall site will include a retail town centre, a new civic area, a high quality residential scheme, a hotel, medical centre, and leisure facilities. The first phase, which opened in Summer 2007 includes a new 70,000 sq ft Dunnes Stores and the first B&Q store in Galway. The second phase is now well underway with further retail completions due in Spring 2008.

It is a hole, not a phase. Fill it in with a Tesco willye.

gordongekko

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

Its the opinion of the city manager and city director of services that this development is not justified by of population considering the proximity of so many other shopping facilities. RGData are of the opinion that it has the potential to "hoover up business within a 20km radius".

Anyone who thinks that the Westside of the city can support yet another shopping centre and that it won't result in loss of custom to other such centres in the locality, particularly in the current climate, has a wonderful imagination. Clearly they see an uncharacteristically lucrative time ahead for the inhabitants of the west side of the city that is out of keeping with a countrywide economic trend or they're envisaging the population of the area dramatically increase. Neither look like realities in the forseeable future, not only in Galway but anywhere in Ireland.

no no what you said as it wont create employment. where is the proof of this? im neither pro nor against this development but i find it hard to believe no jobs will be created by the opening of this retail park. Can you link me the proof that no jobs will be gained.

ladhrann

gordongekko wrote: »

no no what you said as it wont create employment. where is the proof of this? im neither pro nor against this development but i find it hard to believe no jobs will be created by the opening of this retail park. Can you link me the proof that no jobs will be gained.

The point I believe is that large mall-style developments such as this will on average cause a net loss of jobs in a given area. Not only would smaller businesses tend to shut, but all the suppliers and ancillary services such as accountants, cleaners, lawyers etc. that were employed by those businesses will be under threat.

I'm not aware of a specific study on this project. But there have comparable studies in the U.K. One notable example has been the virtual disappearance of the butcher and grocer from English life in ciites for example.

fishy fishy

this has nothing to do with how good it will be for the area. This has everything to do with the council taking care of one of it's own! and to hell with the people having to live with it. :rolleyes:

gordongekko

ladhrann wrote: »

The point I believe is that large mall-style developments such as this will on average cause a net loss of jobs in a given area. Not only would smaller businesses tend to shut, but all the suppliers and ancillary services such as accountants, cleaners, lawyers etc. that were employed by those businesses will be under threat.

I'm not aware of a specific study on this project. But there have comparable studies in the U.K. One notable example has been the virtual disappearance of the butcher and grocer from English life in ciites for example.

I only see net gains around galway. Aldi westside opened and Dunnes did not close. Most of the other shops in the retail parks are all open. Joyces stayed open when Dunnes moved near them and most of the other shops in the area have remained open plus you have b and q new look etc. Tescos extra opened in newcastle the Londis has stayed open and so have most of the other shops in the area. Dunnes opened in briarhill Tescos in Oranmore yet Super Valu have stayed open. All i can see around Galway from these types of parks is a net gain of jobs. If this park creates jobs them i dont see any particular problem with it.

_Whimsical_

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

I think it's mostly intended to refer to Rahoon. How and ever it isn't really important as in this instance the new tesco is not expected to create employment but to displace it from other supermarkets in the area and smaller shops.

gordongekko wrote: »

Proof please

gordongekko wrote: »

no no what you said as it wont create employment. where is the proof of this? im neither pro nor against this development but i find it hard to believe no jobs will be created by the opening of this retail park. Can you link me the proof that no jobs will be gained.

I actually said its not EXPECTED to create employment and said I based that on my own assessment of the facts from my experience, the opinion of the city manager, city director of services and the opinion of RGData on the subject.

Unfortunately I do not have a crystal ball to show you or a delorean with time travel capabilities so I can't actually go to the future to find you actual "proof". However I think it's a fair deducement based upon the experience and knowledge of those working in the area and also on an assessment of the facts. No one can offer more than an opinion on the reprecussions of events that have not happened yet. If you want to google or read through past articles in the Galway Advertiser, City Tribune or online at galwaynews.ie you'll see that those views have been advanced by the people I mentioned.

ladhrann

gordongekko wrote: »

I only see net gains around galway. Aldi westside opened and Dunnes did not close. Most of the other shops in the retail parks are all open. Joyces stayed open when Dunnes moved near them and most of the other shops in the area have remained open plus you have b and q new look etc. Tescos extra opened in newcastle the Londis has stayed open and so have most of the other shops in the area. Dunnes opened in briarhill Tescos in Oranmore yet Super Valu have stayed open. All i can see around Galway from these types of parks is a net gain of jobs. If this park creates jobs them i dont see any particular problem with it.

The point would be that these are subjective effects. It would need a proper statistical survey of employment in order to prove a net gain or loss of jobs due to these centres.

However unless the entire architecture of Galway (and indeed the country) is to based entirely on windowless warehouses in industrial estates and to be frank rather bleak and poorly built carparks pretending to be 'district/village centres' (i.e. Dunnes Westside, Kocknacarra, Headford Rd.) between overcrowded motorways then this must be fought.

As I mentioned earlier I will make an objection of my own. If I cannot make people realise the massive cost to society as a whole and the built environment and quality of life of these projects then I will try to make it less bad, less of an eyesore, less of a liability.

_Whimsical_

ladhrann wrote: »

The point would be that these are subjective effects. It would need a proper statistical survey of employment in order to prove a net gain or loss of jobs due to these centres.

However unless the entire architecture of Galway (and indeed the country) is to based entirely on windowless warehouses in industrial estates and to be frank rather bleak and poorly built carparks pretending to be 'district/village centres' (i.e. Dunnes Westside, Kocknacarra, Headford Rd.) between overcrowded motorways then this must be fought.

As I mentioned earlier I will make an objection of my own. If I cannot make people realise the massive cost to society as a whole and the built environment and quality of life of these projects then I will try to make it less bad, less of an eyesore, less of a liability.

I made an objection too. I'm willing to spend the 20 euro on it because I think its important.

gordongekko

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

. How and ever it isn't really important as in this instance the new tesco is not expected to create employment but to displace it from other supermarkets in the area and smaller shops.

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

I actually said its not EXPECTED to create employment and said I based that on my own assessment of the facts from my experience, the opinion of the city manager, city director of services and the opinion of RGData on the subject.

Unfortunately I do not have a crystal ball to show you or a delorean with time travel capabilities so I can't actually go to the future to find you actual "proof". However I think it's a fair deducement based upon the experience and knowledge of those working in the area and also on an assessment of the facts. No one can offer more than an opinion on the reprecussions of events that have not happened yet. If you want to google or read through past articles in the Galway Advertiser, City Tribune or online at galwaynews.ie you'll see that those views have been advanced by the people I mentioned.

You said it is going to displace it from other supermarkets in the area. This does not tally with my experience around Galway. All these retail parks appear to have created jobs not displaced jobs from one to another. Can you please back it up from your experiences around Galway. The last supermarket i can remember closing down in Galway was Roches and that was quickly replaced by M&S. Kumarket was replaced by Supervalu before that it might have been H Williams and that was replaced by Dunnes. Where are all these displaced jobs around the town that you talk of??

_Whimsical_

gordongekko wrote: »

You said it is going to displace it from other supermarkets in the area. This does not tally with my experience around Galway. All these retail parks appear to have created jobs not displaced jobs from one to another. Can you please back it up from your experiences around Galway. The last supermarket i can remember closing down in Galway was Roches and that was quickly replaced by M&S. Kumarket was replaced by Supervalu before that it might have been H Williams and that was replaced by Dunnes. Where are all these displaced jobs around the town that you talk of??

No I said EXPECTED too. Read back.

Most of those opened during the Celtic Tiger when population in Galway was expanding not decreasing and individual wealth was increasing too. Now we are living in a dramatically different financial climate and our population is not expanding. Also the instances you've cited there are all occasions where a supermarket closed and another reopenned. That would be recycling/displacement of jobs. They aren't examples where entirely new markets sprung up.
In the case of M&S I think they did also bring something new to the retail market in Galway, we needed a bit more diversity and they have nicer more specialist foods so I think they'd have done well anywhere in Galway.

Here there's a balance to be struck between benefit and disadvantagous affects for adjacent residents and also users of the SQR too. There just doesn't seem to be evidence that we can expect the positive effects to outweigh the negative ones here.

thesandeman

There was nothing on the Headford Road before Quinnsworth (now Tesco) opened. That was followed by Dunnes, Lidl and Aldi. As I said earlier all the other tenants in The Shopping Centre who do food seem to be either thriving or expanding and new food retailers are still entering there.

yer man!

When I first heard about this development I was more or less opposed to it's construction but from what I've seen from these types developments around the country I now think that it could be beneficial to the surrounding area. A lot of people from this area already shop in Tesco headford road which is making a LOT of money, so by putting a tesco here you're essentially reducing travel distance and releiving the other one. It could have the effect of bringing in more developments, more business, more people into the area. This could improve some of the smaller roads around the place and make it a more attractive place to live, it could actually give bus eireann a kick in the backside and realise that they could possibly make money by improving transport in the area with the influx of people. It would open the place up. Many people were against the tesco in oranmore, I live here and I wasn't so sure of it myself but now i'm quite happy with it. Supervalu still thrives in the town as now they are way more competitive than they used to be so they get a lot of business. Tesco in Oranmore will bring with it more development around it like open squares for the current market in oranmore, new access roads to relieve other parts of the town, it will attract more shops upon completion (if that happens). Ultimately it will entice more people to come into the area and spend money. I think Tesco would be a good asset to the area, don't forget an awful lot of people from knocknacarra shop in a Tesco somewhere else in Galway anyway, this development is just making it a whole lot easier for them and having a knock on positive effect for majority of the locals.

gordongekko

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

No I said EXPECTED too. Read back.

read back i asked for a link to the proof of this