Should members of AGS declare their sexuality?

angelfire9

bubblypop wrote: »

seriously op??

what happens when you go to the doctor? or A&E? do you think those professionals should also 'declare their sexuality' ?
what does that possibly have to do with doing their job.

for the record, im female, i fancy men, in general, however i do manage to stop myself from throwing myself at every male in the street. quite possibly just because im hetrosexual doesnt mean i fancy every single man i see, i imagine this is the same for gay/bisexual people??

When i was pregnant I had several medical exams from doctors male & female
The HSE has a policy that when male doctors examine female patients they must have a female nurse present
I had several "intimate" examinations over the 9 month period, particularly the last 7 days
Did I think the doctor fancied me?
Emmm.... no
Cos he's a professional doing his job

Same thing isn't it?
A garda doing a strip search (be it male on male or female searching female) is doing a job pure & simple
They aren't doing it for kicks or to get their rocks off (pardon my language)

And they are accompanied to ensure that no improprieties occur during the search
I don't see the problem personally

Shield

This...

fred funk }{ wrote: »

Then why is there a rule in place that only Gardai of the same sex can be present during a strip search?

And this...

fred funk }{ wrote: »

Is it OK for male Gardai to be present during a strip search on a female prisoner?

...have already been answered.

While your initial question was interesting and some salient points were raised, they have been answered a number of times already. Come up with something else or this is for locking soon.

fred funk }{

psni wrote: »

This...

And this...
...have already been answered.

While your initial question was interesting and some salient points were raised, they have been answered a number of times already. Come up with something else or this is for locking soon.

What do you mean

Why would you lock the thread, When I asked "Then why is there a rule in place that only Gardai of the same sex can be present during a strip search?"
the answer was it's because they have the same genitalia. That answer was disputed (correctly IMO).

Just because someone gave there own personnel opinion doesn't mean that the whole thread should be locked, Thats the idea of forums, different opinions from different people.

Shield

If your questions have been answered, then you don't simply keep repeating them. That's the idea of forums. People get to have their say, and then move on without being badgered by the same questions over and over on the same thread when they have already been answered.

fred funk }{ wrote: »

Just because someone gave there own personnel opinion doesn't mean that the whole thread should be locked, Thats the idea of forums, different opinions from different people.

angelfire9

fred funk }{ wrote: »

What do you mean

Why would you lock the thread, When I asked "Then why is there a rule in place that only Gardai of the same sex can be present during a strip search?"
the answer was it's because they have the same genitalia. That answer was disputed (correctly IMO).

Just because someone gave there own personnel opinion doesn't mean that the whole thread should be locked, Thats the idea of forums, different opinions from different people.

Can I make one more observation

You have been told that the reason that searches are done by the same sex as the prisoner is because they have the same "bits"

You appear to have a problem with this

let me put it to you this way

Imagine if you... as a fella... (I assume you're male)
Was being searched by a female Garda
A gorgeous, stunning Garda with a figure most women would die for
Tall, beautiful figure, fabulous "assets"

So.... she is performing a strip search on you.... and parts of your anatomy decide to "perform" all of their own accord......

IMAGINE how mortified you would be.....

fred funk }{

fred funk }{ wrote: »

You still haven't answered my question, in fact nobody has so I'll repeat it again.

Is it OK for male Gardai to be present during a strip search on a female prisoner?

Maybe you'll answer this question. How would you feel about your mother/sister/girlfriend/wife been strip searched by two male Gardaí?

Personally, male for males and females for females. It's just obvious.

ShooterSF

angelfire9 wrote: »

Can I make one more observation

You have been told that the reason that searches are done by the same sex as the prisoner is because they have the same "bits"

You appear to have a problem with this

let me put it to you this way

Imagine if you... as a fella... (I assume you're male)
Was being searched by a female Garda
A gorgeous, stunning Garda with a figure most women would die for
Tall, beautiful figure, fabulous "assets"

So.... she is performing a strip search on you.... and parts of your anatomy decide to "perform" all of their own accord......

IMAGINE how mortified you would be.....

Should a gay male prisoner be allowed to be searched by said female so instead of a male guard incase "parts of (their) anatomy decide to "perform" all of their own accord......" ?

Devil's advocate if you will

angelfire9

ShooterSF wrote: »

Should a gay male prisoner be allowed to be searched by said female so instead of a male guard incase "parts of (their) anatomy decide to "perform" all of their own accord......" ?

Devil's advocate if you will

Drop dead gorgeous male cops?
Where..... which station.... i think my passport form needs signing :D:D

Shield

We have to keep this one on-topic folks...

dashboard_hula

fred funk }{ wrote: »

Following on from the other thread where a minor was strip searched, it was mentioned about male members may only be present when a strip search is being conducted and the same when a female is being search that only female members may be present when being strip searched.

Now my point is, should it not be based on their sexuality? Is it right that a gay Garda be present when a male is being strip searched? or a lesbian Garda looking on when a female prisoner is being searched.

Maybe I'm way off in my thinking but I think it's very wrong and they should declare their sexuality when joining the force.

You were grand until you got to that sentence.

To answer your questions:

1. No, stripsearching policies should not be based on a Guards sexuality. For the same reason that straight male doctors perform gyno and breast related exams on women, and for the same reason that straight women perform prostate related exams on men. It has to be done, and the qualified person does it. Plus, there's a chaperone, its in a garda station, it's clinical, it's cold, and it's all business.
2. Why does it matter if a male Garda is gay, or a female Garda is lesbian? As another poster pointed out, I am a straight female, and yet I somehow manage to keep from flinging myself at every man that passes me on the street. You seem to a imagine a lack of self-control in gay Guards thats pretty far-fetched.

Why is it bugging you so much, OP? Oh and for the record, if a male Guard needed to observe a female being stripsearched for some reason, then no, I wouldn't have a problem with it. I would presume there was a damn good reason for it needing to be done.

fred funk }{

You have been told that the reason that searches are done by the same sex as the prisoner is because they have the same "bits"

Is this definitive? if so please show me some reference to it. I don't believe that that is the reason and that the presumption that the Gardai in attendence of the search is heterosexual is not a reason.

fred funk }{

Why is it bugging you so much, OP? Oh and for the record, if a male Guard needed to observe a female being stripsearched for some reason, then no, I wouldn't have a problem with it. I would presume there was a damn good reason for it needing to be done.

That's a very dangerous thing to presume. These people are striped searched against their will so it's not really the same as someone willingly going to the doctor, and for the record I would have a problem with two males strip searching a female.

Honestly Dashboard, it doesn't bother me. It was something that came to mind while reading another thread earlier and it got me thinking, thats all. No more, no less.

fred funk }{

fred funk }{ wrote: »

That's a very dangerous thing to presume. These people are striped searched against their will so it's not really the same as someone willingly going to the doctor, and for the record I would have a problem with two males strip searching a female.

The people being searched are not being held down and stripped forcefully so there is some will involved. And having been present when males are being stripped down I can tell you it's as far from being a setting where sexual desires are likely to be stirred.

And you haven't answered the question yourself.

Manic Moran

ShooterSF wrote: »

But isn't it about perceived sexuality?

We assume by default people are straight and it's again part of the reason we have the current situation.

Bingo.

When i was pregnant I had several medical exams from doctors male & female
The HSE has a policy that when male doctors examine female patients they must have a female nurse present
I had several "intimate" examinations over the 9 month period, particularly the last 7 days
Did I think the doctor fancied me?
Emmm.... no
Cos he's a professional doing his job

Same thing isn't it?
A garda doing a strip search (be it male on male or female searching female) is doing a job pure & simple
They aren't doing it for kicks or to get their rocks off (pardon my language)

So why have the male-on-male/female-on-female rule? They can just be 'professionals doing their job' as police(wo)men. It's very much down to people's sensibilities on the basis of the presumption of sexual orientation.

NTM

dashboard_hula

http://www.iccl.ie/personal-search-.html

According to that link, which is the Irish Council for Civil Liberties, Guards have a right to strip search you without your consent if they reasonably suspect you of falling under certain criteria - carrying stolen property, commiting various offences etc. It also states that it "should be carried out by a person of the same sex" if it's more than a pat down search. I can't find any "definitive" answer as to why it's always the same sex, but I would imagine that notions of modesty and safety (for both sexes) supersede any assumptions made of the Guards sexuality.

As for it being wrong for 2 male guards to search a woman, that's not what I said. I said if a male guard needed to observe, I wouldn't have a problem with it. I would imagine that a woman, either a guard, a doctor or a nurse, could be rustled up somewhere to be the second required searcher. But to be honest, women can be violent and aggressive as much as men can, and if a male Guard is needed, then he's needed, simple as that.

I don't think it's right that Guards should declare their sexuality, to get back to your original point. They have a reasonable right to privacy, just like the rest of us, and it's incredibly insulting to gay and bi people to presume a searchee is more vulnerable in their presence. And it's also not a binary situation. What about bisexual Gardai? Bi-curious? "I snogged a man in college but I'm happily married now?" Should they declare themselves also?

fred funk }{

foreign wrote: »

The people being searched are not being held down and stripped forcefully so there is some will involved. And having been present when males are being stripped down I can tell you it's as far from being a setting where sexual desires are likely to be stirred.

And you haven't answered the question yourself.

This is not really a point we're debating but you are wrong. There is no will involved, the Gardai have the right to forcably strip search you.

Which question haven't I answered?

source

fred funk }{ wrote: »

This is not really a point we're debating but you are wrong. There is no will involved, the Gardai have the right to forcably strip search you.

Which question haven't I answered?

Yes Gardai have the power to forcibly search a person. However unless the person in violently resisting then a search is a lot more civilised.

audidiesel

the vast vast majority of people who are strip searched are searched for a very good reason (weapons,phones,needles,ropes etc).

the majority of prisoners get an empty the pocket, pat down clothed search. its still done man on man, woman on woman. its quick, efficient and respects both parties human rights.

<mod snip>

it doesnt elaborate further and makes no reference to other members observing/assisting. but from my experience of female priosoners who get strip searched, im happy not to have to get involved in that.

anyways to get to the point, no i dont think we should have to declare our sexuality to do our job. im a hetrosexual man and quite happy with that. but what if there is someone else in my profession, be they gay/bi/lesbian that isnt. its unfair to have to make them declare something which they may not be comfortable with. so i disagree with it.

TylerIE

delta_bravo wrote: »

I think you are completely missing the point. At a pool or gym you will not have anyone making forced contact with your body and searching you. There may be nudity in these areas but in a completely different context to the original post. You are dragging it off topic with these scenarios

There is no contact in a "strip search". Its total removal of clothing perhaps positioning but totally hands off.

Furthermore as stated already you will only find out about the few gardai who make their sexuality public - what about those, the majority, who dont. Do you want to bring in Arousal tests?

Also does that mean that Gay Male Gardai should search Female prisoners? What about country stations where there are only a few guards on? Thats a logical extension from what your saying Fred.

And Lesbians should search male prisoners? Thats woeful.

The uniform hides a lot of the campness, so unless sexuality is a forced declaration, the sexuality of those doing the search would be the last thing on the mind of many prisoners. Forcing Gardai to declare their sexuality gives the troublesome members of society, who would be informed of same, ammunition to use when abusing Gardaí. Often those searched would be known criminals who would be delighted to cause grief for Gardai, and homophobic comments wouldnt cost most of them a thought! The discrimination or comments faced by some Gardai on the grounds of gender or ethnicity is bad enough, no point creating more.

Eru

fred funk }{ wrote: »

Absolutely not.

But maybe they should opt out of observing male strip searches.

I would gladly opt out of performing searches.

Im not gay but I dont get off by watching a dirty smelly drug adddled person taking off their filty clothing.

I completely understand where this question came from and its a perfectly valid consideration but theres no correct answer, Should gay Gardai only be in a female locker instead of the male one? Simple reality is a person cannot nor should they be treated differently based on sexuality. That applies to a gay Garda or a gay prisoner and changing it would cause more issues than it would solve. (By the way Gardai dont strip people completely naked during searches unless its a drug search)

Manic Moran wrote: »

So why have the male-on-male/female-on-female rule? They can just be 'professionals doing their job' as police(wo)men. It's very much down to people's sensibilities on the basis of the presumption of sexual orientation.

2 question both with the same answer, the reason for male on male has nothing to do with protecting prisoners, it has everything to do with protecting Gardai from complaints. There was a time in our innocence that male Gardai would deal with female prisoners but with complaint = suspension coming in it didnt take a genuis to work out the possibilities. Thus the same sex rule. With sexuality becoming more of an issue it became having two Gardai there which lowers the possibility of said complaint or wrong doing. Cameras should be brought in to every search area in my opinion to avoid all of this.

eimear10

i think thats a reasonable point , but dont agree on having to announce your sexuality whilst joining. so i dunno how that would work.

is there a gay & lesbian society in AGS ?

TylerIE

eimear10 wrote: »

i think thats a reasonable point , but dont agree on having to announce your sexuality whilst joining. so i dunno how that would work.

is there a gay & lesbian society in AGS ?

Yes - G-Force

Its particularly progressive in not only being recognized by AGS but also is open to all Staff of AGS (including Civilians) and also to Reserve Members.

AGS also got Employer of the Year at the Gay and Lesbian Awards last year