Should members of AGS declare their sexuality?

drkpower

foinse wrote: »

I already answered this question for you.

Can I ask you, Would you also advocate the provision of seperate changing rooms for LGBT persons, at say pools, gyms, spa's....etc?

Out of interest, are you suggesting the reason for the present rules on strip searching (ie. male on male only, female on female only) are only/predominantly to do with body differences between the sexes (ie. the searchee might be embarrassed by a member of the opposite sex seeing their 'bits')?

Or do you accept that the issue of potential sexual impropriety (or perception of same) is at least a significant factor?

delta_bravo

foinse wrote: »

I already answered this question for you.

Can I ask you, Would you also advocate the provision of seperate changing rooms for LGBT persons, at say pools, gyms, spa's....etc?

I think you are completely missing the point. At a pool or gym you will not have anyone making forced contact with your body and searching you. There may be nudity in these areas but in a completely different context to the original post. You are dragging it off topic with these scenarios

source

drkpower wrote: »

Out of interest, are you suggesting the reason for the present rules on strip searching (ie. male on male only, female on female only) are only/predominantly to do with body differences between the sexes (ie. the searchee might be embarrassed by a member of the opposite sex seeing their 'bits')?

Or do you accept that the issue of potential sexual impropriety (or perception of same) is at least a significant factor?

Go back to post 13 of this thread you'll see my reply.

drkpower

foinse wrote: »

Go back to post 13 of this thread you'll see my reply.

This?

foinse wrote:

Of course they are, but the females being searched aren't to be trusted not to make vexatious complaints..

Im not sure how this answers my question.

If the females being examined by males aren't to be trusted not to make vexatious complaints, why would the might females being examined by lesbian females be trusted not to make vexatious complaints?

source

delta_bravo wrote: »

I think you are completely missing the point. At a pool or gym you will not have anyone making forced contact with your body and searching you. There may be nudity in these areas but in a completely different context to the original post. You are dragging it off topic with these scenarios

I'm not, What's the difference between a naked gay man in a changing room and a gay guy in a uniform performing a search?

NOTHING is what, and that is the point i'm trying to make. Just because he's gay doesn't mean he'll try to cop a feel.

source

drkpower wrote: »

This?


Im not sure how this answers my question.

If the females being examined by males aren't to be trusted not to make vexatious complaints, why would the might females being examined by lesbian females be trusted not to make vexatious complaints?

Because unlike the genetaila we're born with, it is often difficult to tell the difference between a gay man/straight man and a lesbian/ straight woman. Unless the op gets his way and they have to declare their sexuality that is.

So if a woman is being searched by a woman they don't automatically think lesbian they think woman, Unless the member has to declare their sexuality...In that instance it will become increasingly likely that a vexatious complaint would be made.

drkpower

foinse wrote: »

Just because he's gay doesn't mean he'll try to cop a feel.

That point doesnt get you anywhere.

Just because a man is searching a woman doesn't mean he'll try to cop a feel

foinse wrote: »

Because unlike the genetaila we're born with, it is often difficult to tell the difference between a gay man/straight man and a lesbian/ straight woman. Unless the op gets his way and they have to declare their sexuality that is.

So if a woman is being searched by a woman they don't automatically think lesbian they think woman, Unless the member has to declare their sexuality...In that instance it will become increasingly likely that a vexatious complaint would be made..

So, by that logic, if the man or woman appears to be gay, you would advocate that they dont search a member of their own sex?

source

drkpower wrote: »

That point doesnt get you anywhere.

Just because a man is searching a woman doesn't mean he'll try to cop a feel

But as I said, unless you force a gay person to declare their sexuality you won't know their sexuality. You always know a man is a man and a woman is a woman.

It is plain wrong to force a person to state that they are homosexual, when they may not even be comfortable with it themselves.

source

drkpower wrote: »

So, by that logic, if the man or woman appears to be gay, you would advocate that they dont search a member of their own sex?

What does a gay person look like?

drkpower

foinse wrote: »

But as I said, unless you force a gay person to declare their sexuality you won't know their sexuality. You always know a man is a man and a woman is a woman.

It is plain wrong to force a person to state that they are homosexual, when they may not even be comfortable with it themselves.

I agree with your conclusion, I just dont agree with how you get there.

It can be quite clear whether someone is gay; if i follow your logic, it suggests that in those cases, you might advocate that they should not do a search.

drkpower

foinse wrote: »

What does a gay person look like?

Are you suggesting that, in some cases, it is not possible to identify, with a reasonable degree of confidence, that someone is gay?

source

drkpower wrote: »

I agree with your conclusion, I just dont agree with how you get there.

It can be quite clear whether someone is gay; if i follow your logic, it suggests that in those cases, you might advocate that they should not do a search.

That is not what i'm saying at all, I was merely using that as an example to you can tell the difference between a man and a woman, and that it is not a clear line when it comes to LGBT people.

I presume by the above that you mean that if a man is camp then they must be gay, or if a woman has short hair they must be gay.

Michael McIntyre is straight, and married with children....he's probably the campest person on the planet.

You cannot tell who is and who is not gay by looking at them, the only way you can tell for sure is if they tell you. Which is what the OP is advocating. As another poster stated, AGS members also have a right to privacy, and a person's sexual orientation is possibly the most private thing any person has.

source

drkpower wrote: »

Are you suggesting that, in some cases, it is not possible to identify, with a reasonable degree of confidence, that someone is gay?

I'm saying that it is not always possible. Sure if you're outside the George it might be reasonable to assume that a person walking in the door is gay but you can never tell for sure unless they tell you. (I've been in gay bars and am not gay, so that method is also a poor way to tell).

In contrast when confronted with a male wearing a uniform then it is truely impossible unless they tell you. I worked with a woman for 6 months before she told me she is a lesbian, and i would never have guessed unless she told me.

drkpower

foinse wrote: »

As another poster stated, AGS members also have a right to privacy, and a person's sexual orientation is possibly the most private thing any person has.

Well, I actually said that, and as I said, I fully agree with your conclusion, precisely because to require everyone to declare their sexuality is a disproportionate response.

And no, I dont think you can tell if every person is gay, or even most people. But there are some people who you can identify to be gay, with a reasonable degree of confidence, and to follow your logic, it suggests that they should not be allowed to search another male. But it is a minor point, and I dont really want to get into an argument with you on it, as we are fundamentally on the same page on this one.

source

drkpower wrote: »

Well, I actually said that, and as I said, I fully agree with your conclusion, precisely because to require everyone to declare their sexuality is a disproportionate response.

And no, I dont think you can tell if every person is gay, or even most people. But there are some people who you can identify to be gay, with a reasonable degree of confidence, and to follow your logic, it suggests that they should not be allowed to search another male. But it is a minor point, and I dont really want to get into an argument with you on it, as we are fundamentally on the same page on this one.

Fair enough, You picked me up wrong on my point, I think I've since explained it.

Ken.

I hope i don't offend anyone with this but it seems to me that seeing as the op originally got the idea for this thread from the pi forum about a 16 year old being strip searched all i can conclude is that the op thinks that gay= pedophile.

If i'm wrong op i apologise but i can't see anything else in what your saying.

drkpower

lucyfur09 wrote: »

If i'm wrong op i apologise but i can't see anything else in what your saying.

You are wrong. And you should apologise.

While the OP might be wrong on his point, how anyone could take his point to be a veiled reference at what you are suggesting is beyond me. To react like you have done with accusations of paedophilia perhaps says more about your mindset, and your focus on paedophilia, than it says about the OP.

zuroph

lucyfur09 wrote: »

I hope i don't offend anyone with this but it seems to me that seeing as the op originally got the idea for this thread from the pi forum about a 16 year old being strip searched all i can conclude is that the op thinks that gay= pedophile.

If i'm wrong op i apologise but i can't see anything else in what your saying.

you need to look up the definition of the word paedophilia. Because currently you're about 5 years off the pace.

zuroph

drkpower wrote: »

Are you suggesting that, in some cases, it is not possible to identify, with a reasonable degree of confidence, that someone is gay?

in garda uniform, I'd say I would 100% never know. hell, some of the campest people I know are straight.

seanybiker

So bisexual guards don't search anyone then.

No I dont think their sexuality should be a big deal for anything to do with their work.
Just because someone is gay or straight doesn't mean they are going to get turned on by everyone in their preferred gender.

old hippy

should it not be based on their sexuality?

Is the question I have a problem with

fred funk }{

fred funk }{ wrote: »

Following on from the other thread where a minor was strip searched, it was mentioned about male members may only be present when a strip search is being conducted and the same when a female is being search that only female members may be present when being strip searched.

Now my point is, should it not be based on their sexuality? Is it right that a gay Garda be present when a male is being strip searched? or a lesbian Garda looking on when a female prisoner is being searched.

Maybe I'm way off in my thinking but I think it's very wrong and they should declare their sexuality when joining the force.

seriously op??

what happens when you go to the doctor? or A&E? do you think those professionals should also 'declare their sexuality' ?
what does that possibly have to do with doing their job.

for the record, im female, i fancy men, in general, however i do manage to stop myself from throwing myself at every male in the street. quite possibly just because im hetrosexual doesnt mean i fancy every single man i see, i imagine this is the same for gay/bisexual people??

fred funk }{

lucyfur09 wrote: »

I hope i don't offend anyone with this but it seems to me that seeing as the op originally got the idea for this thread from the pi forum about a 16 year old being strip searched all i can conclude is that the op thinks that gay= pedophile.

If i'm wrong op i apologise but i can't see anything else in what your saying.

Words fail me.

fred funk }{

bubblypop wrote: »

seriously op??

what happens when you go to the doctor? or A&E? do you think those professionals should also 'declare their sexuality' ?
what does that possibly have to do with doing their job.

for the record, im female, i fancy men, in general, however i do manage to stop myself from throwing myself at every male in the street. quite possibly just because im hetrosexual doesnt mean i fancy every single man i see, i imagine this is the same for gay/bisexual people??

In a Garda station there are rules that state only members of the same sex as the prisoner can be present during a strip search.

By your logic it's OK for male Gardai to be present during a strip search on a female, correct?

source

fred funk }{ wrote: »

In a Garda station there are rules that state only members of the same sex as the prisoner can be present during a strip search.

By your logic it's OK for male Gardai to be present during a strip search on a female, correct?

Actually with regard to violent prisoners then yes it is possible for a male to be present during a strip search. When it's for safety purposes then it's allowed.

fred funk }{

foinse wrote: »

Actually with regard to violent prisoners then yes it is possible for a male to be present during a strip search. When it's for safety purposes then it's allowed.

We're not talking about that and well you know foinse.

fred funk }{

fred funk }{ wrote: »

We're not talking about that and well you know foinse.

no, you're talking about the fact that you dont seem to think a gay garda can possibly do their job professionally!!

ridiculous. a garda's sexuality has nothing to do with searching someone!!
like i said earlier, do you think that medical personal should divulge their sexuality?

OMG Its EoinD

OP. I think you're wrong.

fred funk }{

no, you're talking about the fact that you dont seem to think a gay garda can possibly do their job professionally!!

Attacking 'The Straw Man' is bad form bubblypop.

a garda's sexuality has nothing to do with searching someone!!

Then why is there a rule in place that only Gardai of the same sex can be present during a strip search?

do you think that medical personal should divulge their sexuality?

When a suspect is being searched forcibly in a Garda station it's not the same as a doctor examining a patient with consent.

You still haven't answered my question, in fact nobody has so I'll repeat it again.

Is it OK for male Gardai to be present during a strip search on a female prisoner?

ShooterSF

zuroph wrote: »

in garda uniform, I'd say I would 100% never know. hell, some of the campest people I know are straight.

But isn't it about perceived sexuality? That's why the situation is (partially) as it is now. I don't agree with the OP's suggestion for the same reasons as drkpower but the derision his post has been met with is ridiculous imo (comparing it to putting starts on jews for example)
The guy never said a gay Guard cannot do their job properly but that it may make a searchee uncomfortable if they perceive the guard as gay. We assume by default people are straight and it's again part of the reason we have the current situation.
I actually think if society wasn't still homophobic in places the OP's suggestion would not be a bad one as the only problem with it now imo is that these Guards have reason to protect the fact that they are gay. Actually if homophobia didn't exist this conversation would have been a better one about the merits of the suggestion and not searching for a dark hidden motive from the OP.

Edit - most of this post is not aimed at you zuroph (on reading it I realise you may take it as such)