should bjj be graded without gi?

lawrencesummers

There are over 30 people on the Bjj.ie belt list as being graded under Chris brennan, does this mean that they all have to be removed from the list as they are only White belts?

Do they have the right now to enter competitions as blues, purples or browns with the GI on?

Shane Fitz

da-bres wrote: »

Thanks for the reply shane,

I was always under the impression that a Judo black belt is supposed to fight in the blue belt division, regardless of bjj experience. I stand corrected if I am wrong.

''Gi and no-Gi are, at the moment the same sport''

Is this so? where abouts in the IBJJF rules does it say that gi jiu jitsu and no-gi jiu jitsu are the same sport??
They are very similar, yes, and have much the same rules, but clearly a lack of gi makes one different to the other.

BDW I have never seen a specification in IBJJF rules regarding a no gi JJ belt in a gi competition.

I think it would be best if a higher ranked No-gi player could specify if their belt is a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Belt or is it a specifically next Generation Jiu Jitsu belt, or tenth planet belt or whatever.

Im not dissing the no gi grade BDW im just trying to fully understand how it fits into the Gi Jiu jitsu competitions.

I am open to correction on the issue of Judo Black belts competing as whites, but didnt a training partner of yours compete as a White before being promoted to Blue, when he was a world class Judo BB, your coach, or some of the more senior figures could clarify that. Thats not a dig by the way

As regards a specific rule, the only difference as posted on the IBJJF web site is the uniform requirements for no-Gi, they mirror the belt grades, ie if you are a Blue belt, you must wear a Blue rash guard etc. The rules are the same, as in whats legal or illeagal ( leg attacks) at the different grades.

da-bres

lawrencesummers wrote: »

There are over 30 people on the Bjj.ie belt list as being graded under Chris brennan, does this mean that they all have to be removed from the list as they are only White belts?

Do they have the right now to enter competitions as blues, purples or browns with the GI on?

I think it should be there choice, or between them and their coach, how do you expect a no gi purple belt, who trains solely no gi to contend with a gi purple in a gi competition, it would not be even slightly competitive.

I think its very progressive and ego-less thing to accept a white belt from scratch. Especially to Acknowledge that what ever you once knew is irrelevant to what lies ahead.


No one gave out to Helio for wearing his blue belt.:)

da-bres

Shane Fitz wrote: »

I am open to correction on the issue of Judo Black belts competing as whites, but didnt a training partner of yours compete as a White before being promoted to Blue, when he was a world class Judo BB, your coach, or some of the more senior figures could clarify that. Thats not a dig by the way

As regards a specific rule, the only difference as posted on the IBJJF web site is the uniform requirements for no-Gi, they mirror the belt grades, ie if you are a Blue belt, you must wear a Blue rash guard etc. The rules are the same, as in whats legal or illeagal ( leg attacks) at the different grades.

Cheers Shane,

At least thats a reference of some kind but it is still open to speculation.
Its definitely a very murky area. Would be good to have an clear outline/guideline on this.

lawrencesummers

da-bres wrote: »

I think it should be there choice, or between them and their coach, how do you expect a no gi purple belt, who trains solely no gi to contend with a gi purple in a gi competition, it would not be even slightly competitive.

I think its very progressive and ego-less thing to accept a white belt from scratch. Especially to Acknowledge that what ever you once knew is irrelevant to what lies ahead.


No one gave out to Helio for wearing his blue belt.:)

With all due respect, that's a load of ****e.

A nogi purple enters a GI comp it's his problem that he's not a great GI player, but if he goes to the beginners it's the other beginners problem to have to contend with him. Get out of town. I only train GI, and have done so for a good while, does that mean I can enter beginners nogi?

arybvtcw0eolkf

Shane Fitz wrote: »

I am open to correction on the issue of Judo Black belts competing as whites, but didnt a training partner of yours compete as a White before being promoted to Blue, when he was a world class Judo BB, your coach, or some of the more senior figures could clarify that. Thats not a dig by the way

Can I just add my 2 cent to that?.

I don't know who the coach is, so I don't have to watch what I say plus its purely my own opinion on myself and how I'd feel.

But personally, and I'm a brown belt (Judo) if I was to enter a BJJ comp I think it would be unfair of me to enter as a white belt.

If I'm training BJJ if there's a white belt I'll wear it out of respect for the lads, but more often than not I've only got my brown belt but the lads know its to keep my gi tidy and that its a Judo grade.

If I train with someone new I'll let them know its Judo, and if I train take downs I really do take it down a couple of gears.

And if I forget my sprawls, I get spanked by double leg grabs :mad:

Barry.Oglesby

LOL. This is now turning into apologist nonsense.

If a nogi purple wants to enter a gi tournament, I would expect him to take a period of time to adjust to the mode of competition and then compete at purple belt level.

Killme00

Ricardo Calm Numerical wrote: »

But personally, and I'm a brown belt (Judo) if I was to enter a BJJ comp I think it would be unfair of me to enter as a white belt.

Why? While you have a clear takedown advantage over someone with no Judo, your BJJ is still white belt level. Your opponent also doesnt have to try to throw you, they can pull guard or do some of those illegal judo techniques on you.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Killme00 wrote: »

Why? While you have a clear takedown advantage over someone with no Judo, your BJJ is still white belt level. Your opponent also doesnt have to try to throw you, they can pull guard or do some of those illegal judo techniques on you.

Re. pulling guard.. I've never had someone pull me down into their guard when I didn't want to go down there.. If I'm going to go to the mat I'm taking someone down with me and getting a score from it.

The rest, well on the mat I've no idea how BJJ is scored so 99% of people would have the advantage over me there.

Its just my own personal opinion thats all, if someone else (Judoka) wants to do it and they're not breaking any rules of the competition then thats up to themselves - if they're comfy with that then its cool with me.

To finish, I'd rather test myself against people I'd consider myself on a level par (or tougher) with than to give myself what I'd feel as an advantage by opting for white I'd consider much easier competition in the white's.

As I said, its just how I feel about myself and nothing or no one else.

Shane Fitz

at your weight category super heavy, guard pulling would be rare. i'd let you score the takedown and work from bottom rather than try pull guard on someone so big, or an experienced judoka.

Barry.Oglesby

Ricardo Calm Numerical wrote: »

Re. pulling guard.. I've never had someone pull me down into their guard when I didn't want to go down there.. If I'm going to go to the mat I'm taking someone down with me and getting a score from it.

I think you'd find that guard pulling in BJJ competition is slightly more aggressive than training and that there's no real necessity to have the guy come down with you.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

I think you'd find that guard pulling in BJJ competition is slightly more aggressive than training and that there's no real necessity to have the guy come down with you.

Maybe I would Barry, but I've no plans to compete in BJJ.

I've been out of competition for the last year and rebab'ing a complete tear to my right ATFL and toyed around with the idea of a BJJ comp or two to keep the hand in so to speak but the desire never really gripped me.

I love training with the lads in Rush, I've learned so much from them which I take to my Judo game & thats where I'm finding satisfaction.

I get big pleasures from small compliments, like last week a guy I hadn't trained with in ages (French Chris from Andy's place) was shocked that I was attacking off my back (in a Judo class)... I took the compliment straight to Paul - and I really do get great satisfaction in learning and passing it along.

Killme00

Shane Fitz wrote: »

at your weight category super heavy, guard pulling would be rare. i'd let you score the takedown and work from bottom rather than try pull guard on someone so big, or an experienced judoka.

Shane, this doesnt make sense. You'd rather let yourself be thrown and work from wherever you end up two points down than pull guard and work from the bottom on an even keel. Madness Would you pull guard against Andy Ryan?

Shane Fitz

Killme00 wrote: »

Shane, this doesnt make sense. You'd rather let yourself be thrown and work from wherever you end up two points down than pull guard and work from the bottom on an even keel. Madness Would you pull guard against Andy Ryan?

that wasnt a general comment Tom, it was specific to Mr Martin, who out weighs you and I be atleast 20kg, and is a few inches taller too, and wouldn't by his own admission have a great ground game yet... Andy is a different animal altogether lol

arybvtcw0eolkf

Shane Fitz wrote: »

that wasnt a general comment Tom, it was specific to Mr Martin, who out weighs you and I be atleast 20kg, and is a few inches taller too, and wouldn't by his own admission have a great ground game yet... Andy is a different animal altogether lol

Sorry I didn't see your earlier post.

(oh, and edited my surname from you post too, most people here know me - but I've other's in other forum who'd love to know it).

Do you mean people are heavy weights rarely pull guard or people lighter than me?.

For the record I'm 127kgs this morning, but thats not a good weight for me. I'm about 10kgs over my ideal weight..

Shane Fitz

super heavy!!!
nah, i ment you, as a top judoka, who is only on his jiu jitsu journey, i'd rather give up the 2 points and work from bottom.. as i cant pull guard for peanuts, and yup, 20 kg heavier

arybvtcw0eolkf

Shane Fitz wrote: »

super heavy!!!
nah, i ment you, as a top judoka, who is only on his jiu jitsu journey, i'd rather give up the 2 points and work from bottom.. as i cant pull guard for peanuts, and yup, 20 kg heavier

Thanks for the compliment but I'm not a top anything.

I've been out of training since dislocating my ankle last June 10th, fighting next weekend if I can but struggling big time.

da-bres

lawrencesummers wrote: »

With all due respect, that's a load of ****e.

A nogi purple enters a GI comp it's his problem that he's not a great GI player, but if he goes to the beginners it's the other beginners problem to have to contend with him. Get out of town. I only train GI, and have done so for a good while, does that mean I can enter beginners nogi?

I don't think you understood what my point was, These are two different sports, I never said one should drop a grade because of this I just outlined a clear gap in skills. And I don't think it works two ways.

Maybe it was worded wrongly.

Barry that was a hypothetical statement not something regarding a no gi purple, funnily enough I know a no gi purple belt who competed in his first gi competition without any gi training, oh wait it was darragh O'connaill.

lawrencesummers

da-bres wrote: »

I don't think you understood what my point was, These are two different sports, I never said one should drop a grade because of this I just outlined a clear gap in skills. And I don't think it works two ways.

Maybe it was worded wrongly. ...

so let me get this right, you think that its ok for a NOGI player to enter GI at lower levels but not a GI player to enter NOGI at lower levels?

da-bres

lawrencesummers wrote: »

so let me get this right, you think that its ok for a NOGI player to enter GI at lower levels but not a GI player to enter NOGI at lower levels?

I do not have a solidified view on it, but yes I don't believe the no gi grade equates to the gi grade in gi competition.

cowzerp

da-bres wrote: »

I do not have a solidified view on it, but yes I don't believe the no gi grade equates to the gi grade in gi competition.

I'm almost echoing this only for im saying i do feel they should wear same grade in competition, otherwise i think it's chaotic and picking where you compete is just a free for all..

Either way it would be nice to have some confirmation on what should happen here so we don't have to repeat this every time someone competes at a level that people may question.

also what i would say is if there not going to compete at the grade then it probably should becalled a sub wrestling grade rather than BJJ and not be up on the BJJ belt page..

dardis

I can give a take as an outsider coming from the opposite side.
I train in the US, I've been training about 5years and am a purple since feb 2010ish. I only started training in the gi in january this year.
I had not trained in the gi when I got my blue belt. My coach made me do a local blue belt gi division last february which I was lucky enough win my division and place in the absoute. He then gave me my purple.
I still sometimes question if I am a purple but I think everyone questions their grade one time or another.
I think if you grade in nogi and want to compete in gi you have to do your nogi grade. Some people are saying it wouldn't be fair because of the differnt grips and chokes involved, if thats the case dont compete- wait until you can defend the grips and chokes.

OLDMAN1

da-bres wrote: »

funnily enough I know a no gi purple belt who competed in his first gi competition without any gi training, oh wait it was darragh O'connaill.

In your opinion why did Darragh not enter the white division as according to him Gi and noGi are different?

EnjoyChoke

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

In your opinion why did Darragh not enter the white division as according to him Gi and noGi are different?

Because He is a high level Purple belt standard in both. Thats why.

Far too much talk about grades going on here in any case. It is one of the least important aspects of the sport.
Arguing about a coloured piece of cloth...:(

da-bres

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

In your opinion why did Darragh not enter the white division as according to him Gi and noGi are different?

that post was in relation to barrys comment:

''If a nogi purple wants to enter a gi tournament, I would expect him to take a period of time to adjust to the mode of competition and then compete at purple belt level''

Darragh made the same decision Chris did in his first BJJ GI tournie. You should ask him yourself. My opinion doesn't matter

Niall Keane

This debate seems strange, almost political?
Like from my perspective outside of BJJ I train TCC and have entered various competitions Sanshou, sanda, Kuoshu, tui shou (no gi stand up wrestling) and trained as sparring partner in shuai jiao (jacket wrestling).
My Sanshou coach Paul Mitchel had competed likewise in Kuoshu and tui shou for 15 years, he had won all the major international competitions by that stage and decided to try his hand at jacket wrestling in 2005, entering the worlds with 87 countries competiing inclusding China and Taiwan the homes of shuai jiao, anyway first he spent 6 months on the training mat getting used to the jacket, he has no coach just me and few others doing the same. He won the worlds going through three days of competitors without conceding a single point! Now fair enough that is exceptional.
And granted there are no belts / levels in Chinese martial arts, but my point is no way was he a novice! There were a few tricks he had to get use to with the jacket but the fundamental body mechanics of throwing and countering throws were not too dissimilar, and far more similarities exist than not.
Like in Sanshou you wear ten ounce gloves but single sieze legs I still single sieze legs, a grip might aid it maybe? Or more likely allow people to "hang on" but the entry skills range angle etc etc remain pretty much the same. Sure you got strikes to worry about so a dynamic guard has to be developed to cater for that, but you're talking a few sessions to explore the difference not taking the same time to learn it afresh.
It's modification of an existing skill, not learning a completely new one, surely that's the point?

Barry.Oglesby

da-bres wrote: »

that post was in relation to barrys comment:

''If a nogi purple wants to enter a gi tournament, I would expect him to take a period of time to adjust to the mode of competition and then compete at purple belt level''

Darragh made the same decision Chris did in his first BJJ GI tournie. You should ask him yourself. My opinion doesn't matter

And my post was an answer to another specific question!

Like I said and Tom said. I can take it or leave it, even the blue or purple belts you see can have a world of difference between them. You can have a purple belt just fresh or a guy with a purple and 5 years experience with it. It's not meaningless, it's just less meaningful than people make it out to be.

Honestly, if we all had to wear rhinestone studded pink belts tomorrow I wouldn't care. Mine holds my jacket shut and determines the divisions I compete in.

Shane Fitz

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

Because He is a high level Purple belt standard in both. Thats why.

At the risk of being shot to pieces, and inviting some abuse, did he grade in both Tom, or did he transfer his no-Gi grade across?. Who gave Darragh a Gi grade at purple?
I'm not disputing his grades in any way, as his results in Gi competition, validate his grading.

Barry.Oglesby

Who cares? If a guy is competing and plainly belongs there it's just pedantry.

Shane Fitz

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Who cares? If a guy is competing and plainly belongs there it's just pedantry.

because....... i'm curious.. if Darragh's grade was good enough to cross over, without a re-grading, or starting from white, why arent others? That is all...

And ok, I'm a pedant, but you knew that. And I'm not disputing he belongs at that level.