should bjj be graded without gi?

tadix

i have been training bjj for nearly 4 years no and have not graded,my instructor is a blackbelt but doesn't want to grade me as i have never trained bjj with the gi .I was wondering what people thought about this?should bjj gradings only be for people who train with the gi or both?

cowzerp

I won't recommend my lads for grading unless they train in the gi, someone like chris Brennan who teaches no gi bjj will grade no gi, either way there both equally accepted and are the same grades.

I argued in the past that it wasnt bjj out of the gi and was sub wrestling but fact remains there both recognised by the governing body if graded by qualified person such as chris Brennan

Killme00

Brazillian Jiu Jitsu without the Gi is still Brazillian Jiu Jitsu. I don't think it's feasible to have different belts for Gi and NoGi, so would prefer to believe that if a BJJ black belt pomotes you to Blue/Purple/Brown/Black then you are that belt and at that level.

However, each school has different criteria for promotion. If your instructor won't promote you without you training in the Gi AND you want to be promoted, then you have a choice to make. You can train in the Gi, or move to another school where you can be promoted without traiing in the Gi.

I think you should be competitive with people of your belt level with and without a gi.

paganist

I think up to purple belt you should be graded even if you dont train in the gi.
I mean if someone is training six years nogi they can compete at the nogi worlds as a white belt- thats ****ed up

ScareGilly

Imo, the gi game and the no gi game are completely different and should be graded as such. I'd believe somebody who's made it to purple belt purely training no gi would demolish somebody who'd trained purely in a gi in a no gi match and vice versa.

I know it was definitely an eye-opener for me when I entered Barry's recent tournament having never trained no gi. Sure, some of the techniques are the same, yet many are different, some techniques are just viable for gi and some just viable for no gi.

Imo, in the brief time I've rolled no gi at Barry's, the no gi game is much faster and quicker reactions are needed whereas the gi game is much more relying on your patience and set-ups, etc.

Shane Fitz

ScareGilly wrote: »

Imo, the gi game and the no gi game are completely different and should be graded as such. I'd believe somebody who's made it to purple belt purely training no gi would demolish somebody who'd trained purely in a gi in a no gi match and vice versa.

All very good and all, and you are mostly likely correct. However the problem arises in that the governing body, the IBJJF does not, for the moment anyway, allow for a distinction. So if you have graded to any belt level in either Gi or no-Gi, that grade is transferable across Gi or no-Gi competitions.

Barry.Oglesby

Is this thread for real or some passive-aggressive dig at either Chris Leddy or any of the nogi BJJ players in Ireland?

I think if you have an opinion on that issue then post it in the other thread.

If on the other hand this is a genuine inquiry, then I think its all the one game. I consider it BJJ no matter what you're wearing.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Is this thread for real or some passive-aggressive dig at either Chris Leddy or any of the nogi BJJ players in Ireland?

I think if you have an opinion on that issue then post it in the other thread.

If on the other hand this is a genuine inquiry, then I think its all the one game. I consider it BJJ no matter what you're wearing.

Barry in fairness to the OP this thread was posted while the other thread was locked.

People were anxious for answer's as the other thread was locked overnight so we kind of expected this thread tbh.

lawrencesummers

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Is this thread for real or some passive-aggressive dig at either Chris Leddy or any of the nogi BJJ players in Ireland?

I think if you have an opinion on that issue then post it in the other thread.

If on the other hand this is a genuine inquiry, then I think its all the one game. I consider it BJJ no matter what you're wearing.

+1 armbars are armbars, triangles are triangles....

Kieran81

lawrencesummers wrote: »

+1 armbars are armbars, triangles are triangles....

and collar chokes happen constantly in nogi:P

arybvtcw0eolkf

lawrencesummers wrote: »

+1 armbars are armbars, triangles are triangles....

Then lets call it Judo

Shane Fitz

ah jaysus.. then it would just get stood up all the time!!!

lawrencesummers

Kieran81 wrote: »

and collar chokes happen constantly in nogi:P

Sure there are differences, but they are more similar than different, the same principles apply to each.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Shane Fitz wrote: »

ah jaysus.. then it would just get stood up all the time!!!

But at least butt flopping would be illegal, and we might get our new BJ-Judo into the olympics

aFlabbyPanda

I peronsally think that if you've been graded in the gi then that obviously translates across but not the other way around. A nogi grade is just that. But I see no issue with people being graded in just nogi.

Barry.Oglesby

BrianjG wrote: »

I peronsally think that if you've been graded in the gi then that obviously translates across but not the other way around. A nogi grade is just that. But I see no issue with people being graded in just nogi.

Whut?

Seriously?

It works one way but not the other for you? Why?

aFlabbyPanda

Becuase someone with only nogi training has no experience of gi chokes, grips, etc so how can they be considered the same.

Doug Cartel

BrianjG wrote: »

Becuase someone with only nogi training has no experience of gi chokes, grips, etc so how can they be considered the same.

So what happens when they no longer have access to these grips and chokes?

If it's no big deal for them to adapt, then why is it a big deal for the no-gi guy to adapt?

Killme00

BrianjG wrote: »

Becuase someone with only nogi training has no experience of gi chokes, grips, etc so how can they be considered the same.

Just because you put on a Gi doesnt mean you forget all the BJJ you have learned up to that point.

Barry.Oglesby

BrianjG wrote: »

Becuase someone with only nogi training has no experience of gi chokes, grips, etc so how can they be considered the same.

Gi guy depends on grips a lot of the time. So they get to adapt but the nogi guy gets a pass back to white belt if he switches?

I'm sticking to my original opinion. You've just lost yourself a voter BrianjG.

aFlabbyPanda

You are assuming that he knows the move in the first place. If the nogi guy has never been shown how to do a zipper choke or a collar choke from side control how is he going to adapt to it in the first place?

Chris89

Its easier to know 100 techniques and need 20 than know 20 and need 100!

Doug Cartel

BrianjG wrote: »

You are assuming that he knows the move in the first place. If the nogi guy has never been shown how to do a zipper choke or a collar choke from side control how is he going to adapt to it in the first place?

By just doing something else. Most people only have a few go-to moves that they use regularly. Knowing less moves isn't really going to that huge a disadvantage, provided the moves you do know and use transfer over.

aFlabbyPanda

Doug Cartel wrote: »

By just doing something else. Most people only have a few go-to moves that they use regularly. Knowing less moves isn't really going to that huge a disadvantage, provided the moves you do know and use transfer over.

Yes I agree with that 100% but that doesnt equate to grading and thats what the OP asked.

Barry.Oglesby

BrianjG wrote: »

Yes I agree with that 100% but that doesnt equate to grading and thats what the OP asked.

Well I guess ultimately it's an academic question as BJJ IS graded nogi. But you've made yourself a powerful enemy today Brian.

I have to say I really don't buy the grade thing, despite being in it of course. To me the only thing that matters is "am I better than I was yesterday" or last week, or last year. It's a reasonable marker of standards and I suppose motivation for some people, but I could very easily live without it.

Doug Cartel

BrianjG wrote: »

Yes I agree with that 100% but that doesnt equate to grading and thats what the OP asked.

So why does the grading only go one way? After all, it's possible the gi-based guy may not know how to grip and set up a lot of his moves in no-gi. If you don't know the no-gi way of doing things (and I mean that from the technically correct, exam day point of view), are you deserving of the rank?

da-bres

High level jiu jitsu is all about grips, and grip fighting.
High level no gi grades can never challenge with this, they just do not have the gi training behind them..

Also an awareness and understanding of the open guard and its potential is lost by training without the gi, IMO,

Anyways how many purely no gi black belts win any big tournaments?? none...

Sure it is grappling, but can it be classed as 'Brazilian Jiu Jitsu' or is it sub wrestling etc...

I do believe that no gi t-shirt holders should be allowed to grade for their gi ranks as well, even for just the experience.

A belt should be handed out as confirmation of a students skill level, if the student doesn't feel at that level and they haven't received a actual gi grade then I don't see the problem.

Its kind of like a Judo black belt entering the white belt division of a BJJ tournament, Its frowned upon but as far as i'm aware it is at your own discretion.

aFlabbyPanda

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Well I guess ultimately it's an academic question as BJJ IS graded nogi. But you've made yourself a powerful enemy today Brian.

Well who wants a weak enemy! but yes in the great scheme of things it doesnt really matter. I'm not trying to knock anyone.

Doug Cartel wrote: »

So why does the grading only go one way? After all, it's possible the gi-based guy may not know how to grip and set up a lot of his moves in no-gi. If you don't know the no-gi way of doing things (and I mean that from the technically correct, exam day point of view), are you deserving of the rank?

Thats true but only speaking from my own experience we are usually shown the nogi alternative too during our gi class. The nogi guy wont really have that option.

Shane Fitz

da-bres wrote: »

A belt should be handed out as confirmation of a students skill level, if the student doesn't feel at that level and they haven't received a actual gi grade then I don't see the problem.

Its kind of like a Judo black belt entering the white belt division of a BJJ tournament, Its frowned upon but as far as i'm aware it is at your own discretion.

Its kinda not Joey! Judo and Jiu Jitsu are two different sports/arts... and no matter how much you wish it, explain it or justify it... Gi and no-Gi are, at the moment the same sport. Where the grade in one form is accepted and transfarable to the other...
I'm not saying it is right or wrong, thats just how the IBJJF do it at moment.

da-bres

Shane Fitz wrote: »

Its kinda not Joey! Judo and Jiu Jitsu are two different sports/arts... and no matter how much you wish it, explain it or justify it... Gi and no-Gi are, at the moment the same sport. Where the grade in one form is accepted and transfarable to the other...
I'm not saying it is right or wrong, thats just how the IBJJF do it at moment.

Thanks for the reply shane,

I was always under the impression that a Judo black belt is supposed to fight in the blue belt division, regardless of bjj experience. I stand corrected if I am wrong.

''Gi and no-Gi are, at the moment the same sport''

Is this so? where abouts in the IBJJF rules does it say that gi jiu jitsu and no-gi jiu jitsu are the same sport??
They are very similar, yes, and have much the same rules, but clearly a lack of gi makes one different to the other.

BDW I have never seen a specification in IBJJF rules regarding a no gi JJ belt in a gi competition.

I think it would be best if a higher ranked No-gi player could specify if their belt is a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Belt or is it a specifically next Generation Jiu Jitsu belt, or tenth planet belt or whatever.

Im not dissing the no gi grade BDW im just trying to fully understand how it fits into the Gi Jiu jitsu competitions.

lawrencesummers

There are over 30 people on the Bjj.ie belt list as being graded under Chris brennan, does this mean that they all have to be removed from the list as they are only White belts?

Do they have the right now to enter competitions as blues, purples or browns with the GI on?

Shane Fitz

da-bres wrote: »

Thanks for the reply shane,

I was always under the impression that a Judo black belt is supposed to fight in the blue belt division, regardless of bjj experience. I stand corrected if I am wrong.

''Gi and no-Gi are, at the moment the same sport''

Is this so? where abouts in the IBJJF rules does it say that gi jiu jitsu and no-gi jiu jitsu are the same sport??
They are very similar, yes, and have much the same rules, but clearly a lack of gi makes one different to the other.

BDW I have never seen a specification in IBJJF rules regarding a no gi JJ belt in a gi competition.

I think it would be best if a higher ranked No-gi player could specify if their belt is a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Belt or is it a specifically next Generation Jiu Jitsu belt, or tenth planet belt or whatever.

Im not dissing the no gi grade BDW im just trying to fully understand how it fits into the Gi Jiu jitsu competitions.

I am open to correction on the issue of Judo Black belts competing as whites, but didnt a training partner of yours compete as a White before being promoted to Blue, when he was a world class Judo BB, your coach, or some of the more senior figures could clarify that. Thats not a dig by the way

As regards a specific rule, the only difference as posted on the IBJJF web site is the uniform requirements for no-Gi, they mirror the belt grades, ie if you are a Blue belt, you must wear a Blue rash guard etc. The rules are the same, as in whats legal or illeagal ( leg attacks) at the different grades.

da-bres

lawrencesummers wrote: »

There are over 30 people on the Bjj.ie belt list as being graded under Chris brennan, does this mean that they all have to be removed from the list as they are only White belts?

Do they have the right now to enter competitions as blues, purples or browns with the GI on?

I think it should be there choice, or between them and their coach, how do you expect a no gi purple belt, who trains solely no gi to contend with a gi purple in a gi competition, it would not be even slightly competitive.

I think its very progressive and ego-less thing to accept a white belt from scratch. Especially to Acknowledge that what ever you once knew is irrelevant to what lies ahead.


No one gave out to Helio for wearing his blue belt.:)

da-bres

Shane Fitz wrote: »

I am open to correction on the issue of Judo Black belts competing as whites, but didnt a training partner of yours compete as a White before being promoted to Blue, when he was a world class Judo BB, your coach, or some of the more senior figures could clarify that. Thats not a dig by the way

As regards a specific rule, the only difference as posted on the IBJJF web site is the uniform requirements for no-Gi, they mirror the belt grades, ie if you are a Blue belt, you must wear a Blue rash guard etc. The rules are the same, as in whats legal or illeagal ( leg attacks) at the different grades.

Cheers Shane,

At least thats a reference of some kind but it is still open to speculation.
Its definitely a very murky area. Would be good to have an clear outline/guideline on this.

lawrencesummers

da-bres wrote: »

I think it should be there choice, or between them and their coach, how do you expect a no gi purple belt, who trains solely no gi to contend with a gi purple in a gi competition, it would not be even slightly competitive.

I think its very progressive and ego-less thing to accept a white belt from scratch. Especially to Acknowledge that what ever you once knew is irrelevant to what lies ahead.


No one gave out to Helio for wearing his blue belt.:)

With all due respect, that's a load of ****e.

A nogi purple enters a GI comp it's his problem that he's not a great GI player, but if he goes to the beginners it's the other beginners problem to have to contend with him. Get out of town. I only train GI, and have done so for a good while, does that mean I can enter beginners nogi?

arybvtcw0eolkf

Shane Fitz wrote: »

I am open to correction on the issue of Judo Black belts competing as whites, but didnt a training partner of yours compete as a White before being promoted to Blue, when he was a world class Judo BB, your coach, or some of the more senior figures could clarify that. Thats not a dig by the way

Can I just add my 2 cent to that?.

I don't know who the coach is, so I don't have to watch what I say plus its purely my own opinion on myself and how I'd feel.

But personally, and I'm a brown belt (Judo) if I was to enter a BJJ comp I think it would be unfair of me to enter as a white belt.

If I'm training BJJ if there's a white belt I'll wear it out of respect for the lads, but more often than not I've only got my brown belt but the lads know its to keep my gi tidy and that its a Judo grade.

If I train with someone new I'll let them know its Judo, and if I train take downs I really do take it down a couple of gears.

And if I forget my sprawls, I get spanked by double leg grabs :mad:

Barry.Oglesby

LOL. This is now turning into apologist nonsense.

If a nogi purple wants to enter a gi tournament, I would expect him to take a period of time to adjust to the mode of competition and then compete at purple belt level.

Killme00

Ricardo Calm Numerical wrote: »

But personally, and I'm a brown belt (Judo) if I was to enter a BJJ comp I think it would be unfair of me to enter as a white belt.

Why? While you have a clear takedown advantage over someone with no Judo, your BJJ is still white belt level. Your opponent also doesnt have to try to throw you, they can pull guard or do some of those illegal judo techniques on you.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Killme00 wrote: »

Why? While you have a clear takedown advantage over someone with no Judo, your BJJ is still white belt level. Your opponent also doesnt have to try to throw you, they can pull guard or do some of those illegal judo techniques on you.

Re. pulling guard.. I've never had someone pull me down into their guard when I didn't want to go down there.. If I'm going to go to the mat I'm taking someone down with me and getting a score from it.

The rest, well on the mat I've no idea how BJJ is scored so 99% of people would have the advantage over me there.

Its just my own personal opinion thats all, if someone else (Judoka) wants to do it and they're not breaking any rules of the competition then thats up to themselves - if they're comfy with that then its cool with me.

To finish, I'd rather test myself against people I'd consider myself on a level par (or tougher) with than to give myself what I'd feel as an advantage by opting for white I'd consider much easier competition in the white's.

As I said, its just how I feel about myself and nothing or no one else.

Shane Fitz

at your weight category super heavy, guard pulling would be rare. i'd let you score the takedown and work from bottom rather than try pull guard on someone so big, or an experienced judoka.

Barry.Oglesby

Ricardo Calm Numerical wrote: »

Re. pulling guard.. I've never had someone pull me down into their guard when I didn't want to go down there.. If I'm going to go to the mat I'm taking someone down with me and getting a score from it.

I think you'd find that guard pulling in BJJ competition is slightly more aggressive than training and that there's no real necessity to have the guy come down with you.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

I think you'd find that guard pulling in BJJ competition is slightly more aggressive than training and that there's no real necessity to have the guy come down with you.

Maybe I would Barry, but I've no plans to compete in BJJ.

I've been out of competition for the last year and rebab'ing a complete tear to my right ATFL and toyed around with the idea of a BJJ comp or two to keep the hand in so to speak but the desire never really gripped me.

I love training with the lads in Rush, I've learned so much from them which I take to my Judo game & thats where I'm finding satisfaction.

I get big pleasures from small compliments, like last week a guy I hadn't trained with in ages (French Chris from Andy's place) was shocked that I was attacking off my back (in a Judo class)... I took the compliment straight to Paul - and I really do get great satisfaction in learning and passing it along.

Killme00

Shane Fitz wrote: »

at your weight category super heavy, guard pulling would be rare. i'd let you score the takedown and work from bottom rather than try pull guard on someone so big, or an experienced judoka.

Shane, this doesnt make sense. You'd rather let yourself be thrown and work from wherever you end up two points down than pull guard and work from the bottom on an even keel. Madness Would you pull guard against Andy Ryan?

Shane Fitz

Killme00 wrote: »

Shane, this doesnt make sense. You'd rather let yourself be thrown and work from wherever you end up two points down than pull guard and work from the bottom on an even keel. Madness Would you pull guard against Andy Ryan?

that wasnt a general comment Tom, it was specific to Mr Martin, who out weighs you and I be atleast 20kg, and is a few inches taller too, and wouldn't by his own admission have a great ground game yet... Andy is a different animal altogether lol

arybvtcw0eolkf

Shane Fitz wrote: »

that wasnt a general comment Tom, it was specific to Mr Martin, who out weighs you and I be atleast 20kg, and is a few inches taller too, and wouldn't by his own admission have a great ground game yet... Andy is a different animal altogether lol

Sorry I didn't see your earlier post.

(oh, and edited my surname from you post too, most people here know me - but I've other's in other forum who'd love to know it).

Do you mean people are heavy weights rarely pull guard or people lighter than me?.

For the record I'm 127kgs this morning, but thats not a good weight for me. I'm about 10kgs over my ideal weight..

Shane Fitz

super heavy!!!
nah, i ment you, as a top judoka, who is only on his jiu jitsu journey, i'd rather give up the 2 points and work from bottom.. as i cant pull guard for peanuts, and yup, 20 kg heavier

arybvtcw0eolkf

Shane Fitz wrote: »

super heavy!!!
nah, i ment you, as a top judoka, who is only on his jiu jitsu journey, i'd rather give up the 2 points and work from bottom.. as i cant pull guard for peanuts, and yup, 20 kg heavier

Thanks for the compliment but I'm not a top anything.

I've been out of training since dislocating my ankle last June 10th, fighting next weekend if I can but struggling big time.

da-bres

lawrencesummers wrote: »

With all due respect, that's a load of ****e.

A nogi purple enters a GI comp it's his problem that he's not a great GI player, but if he goes to the beginners it's the other beginners problem to have to contend with him. Get out of town. I only train GI, and have done so for a good while, does that mean I can enter beginners nogi?

I don't think you understood what my point was, These are two different sports, I never said one should drop a grade because of this I just outlined a clear gap in skills. And I don't think it works two ways.

Maybe it was worded wrongly.

Barry that was a hypothetical statement not something regarding a no gi purple, funnily enough I know a no gi purple belt who competed in his first gi competition without any gi training, oh wait it was darragh O'connaill.

lawrencesummers

da-bres wrote: »

I don't think you understood what my point was, These are two different sports, I never said one should drop a grade because of this I just outlined a clear gap in skills. And I don't think it works two ways.

Maybe it was worded wrongly. ...

so let me get this right, you think that its ok for a NOGI player to enter GI at lower levels but not a GI player to enter NOGI at lower levels?

da-bres

lawrencesummers wrote: »

so let me get this right, you think that its ok for a NOGI player to enter GI at lower levels but not a GI player to enter NOGI at lower levels?

I do not have a solidified view on it, but yes I don't believe the no gi grade equates to the gi grade in gi competition.