Teen fights on major shows Debate

John Ferguson

Clive wrote: »

Agreed, I had a thread on it here and I think some people still don't realise just how disastrous something going wrong in a minor versus adult matchup could be.

Even if nothing was to go wrong it could still be disastrous, let's say for a minute that the Duffy brigade got hold of a story where these cage fighting people let a 14 year old child fight a 21 year old man for example. It would result in media carnage. Then on the back of this as we don't legislate our selves some civil servant will decide they will save us the bother and do it for us.

Barry.Oglesby

DeVore wrote: »

Since its in your sig perhaps?


DeV

So speculation on people's private income is okay then?

Fine.

I'll consider that carte blanche to advertise my services all over boards.

Barry.Oglesby

I think specifics are in order. I'm personally only aware of 2 incidents involving the same young lad. Has it every happened again?

John Ferguson

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

I think specifics are in order. I'm personally only aware of 2 incidents involving the same young lad. Has it every happened again?

There was another mentioned on the Tuffnut thread last week, is that the same one as you are thinking?

Barry.Oglesby

I don't think so. I know we're all wary of mentioning names and rightly so probably. Let's stick to the issues so.

I don't think it would just be the Joe Duffy brigade who'd be up in arms about this. I think a lot of MMA fans generally would consider this wrong.

Jason McCabe

Coaches and promoters who do not bother to take the time or effort to protect their junior are failing in their duty of care.

If an incident ever ends up in front of a judge you better make sure your house is not in your name.

Plus if a kid ever does get seriously hurt fighting an adult it will be on your conscience.

Mouthalmighty

I totally agree, a situation where a teen fights an adult (regardless of weight class) is totally wrong & bad for the sport.

Just throwing an idea out there like they do in soccer rugby etc age groups like Under 17, Under 18. I know that may cause promoters headaches along with all the other problems I'm not writing here.

But I agree with John we NEED to regulate ourselves to prevent this crap from happening!! Otherwise a knee jerk reaction to a situation (as tends to happen in Ireland) will result in serious implications for the sport.

Why don't a group of the more reputable coaches & promoters come together to iron out problems like this so we can be proactive & head off problems before they occur.
The Liveline Brigade only look for excuses.....
Barry's amateur shows seem to be that happy medium for all.

Martin Walker

My younger brother Mark now fights at the old c-class level in Ireland. He is 15. He has fought on Cage Contender, Immortal, Spartan and Battlezone. Never once has he said he didnt like fighting infront of lots of people. Does he get nervous? Yes. Everyone does. To say that anyone is making money specifically by having juniors on the show is just fiction. Juniors belong on MMA shows in Ireland. Mark trains everyday with the full pros in our gym so i feel he has every right to put his skills to use in the same show as the rest of them. Some people on here need to give there head a shake.

The subject of juniors fighting seniors is a bit of a no brainer to be honest. The final word is down to the coaches/managers. If JF came to me (when i was involved with AMMA) and suggested to match Mark or any of our other juniors for that matter with a lad even two years older than him i would tell him where to go. Not because i want an easier fight but because i dont want the lad getting put off and stopping a potential carrer before it started.

On a side note, NEWSFLASH John Ferguson is a Promoter. Hes in the sport to make money. He has never hidden this and from day one has been up front about this. I do not like it and many on here dont either, but its not gonna change any time soon so get over it. John knows my feelings on these thiings as ive told him face to face and im not hating. CC is leading the way for everyone in the game now. If you think you can do it better stop bitching and stand up and do it. Its not easy ill be the first to say it. I tried with mixed results. Some things went well and some didnt. Such is life.

Barry.Oglesby

Martin Walker wrote: »

My younger brother Mark now fights at the old c-class level in Ireland. He is 15. He has fought on Cage Contender, Immortal, Spartan and Battlezone. Never once has he said he didnt like fighting infront of lots of people. Does he get nervous? Yes. Everyone does. To say that anyone is making money specifically by having juniors on the show is just fiction. Juniors belong on MMA shows in Ireland. Mark trains everyday with the full pros in our gym so i feel he has every right to put his skills to use in the same show as the rest of them. Some people on here need to give there head a shake.

As I've stated before, it's not some emotional issue and we can all tell heart warming personal stories about both success and failures. This isn't about Mark or about one of my kids, this is about the law, about Duty of Care and about the pressures on kids. I've no doubt that many kids can handle the pressure, and I've also no doubt that many kids fail to express themselves properly because they're getting too much too soon.

The subject of juniors fighting seniors is a bit of a no brainer to be honest. The final word is down to the coaches/managers.

No it's not. As JF said earlier, it's regulate or be regulated. One day someone will walk in and slap a big banned sticker on an event, they're already looking for an excuse. It won't just affect the kid and his coach/manager, it will affect everyone if a show gets banned or if an injury occurs.

On a side note, NEWSFLASH John Ferguson is a Promoter. Hes in the sport to make money. He has never hidden this and from day one has been up front about this. I do not like it and many on here dont either, but its not gonna change any time soon so get over it. John knows my feelings on these thiings as ive told him face to face and im not hating. CC is leading the way for everyone in the game now. If you think you can do it better stop bitching and stand up and do it. Its not easy ill be the first to say it. I tried with mixed results. Some things went well and some didnt. Such is life.

Who was giving out about John in this thread? John puts on teen matches in big shows but so do Battlezone and Man of War. I don't think we need to personalise this.

The difficulty (as usual) is that it's too hard to have a debate without someone going "are you talking about me?" or "ooohh, he must be talking about him". We're all in this together and while I know I'm battling the tide with a teaspoon, I'm just trying to give my opinion as an experienced youth coach on what I 1) believe is morally right and wrong wrt to the treatment of minors, and 2) what is legally right and wrong wrt to the treatment of minors. I'm not trying to piss on any promotion. If I want to say something to John, Andy, Stefan then I will say it to their faces. This is a debate about the general issues.

DeVore

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

So speculation on people's private income is okay then?

Fine.

I'll consider that carte blanche to advertise my services all over boards.

Go ahead and see how long your account lasts mate. You asked and I pointed out your hypocrisy. You are already in breach of sig-spam rules but if you want a fight on my turf, fine.

DeV.

Barry.Oglesby

DeVore wrote: »

Go ahead and see how long your account lasts mate. You asked and I pointed out your hypocrisy. You are already in breach of sig-spam rules but if you want a fight on my turf, fine.

DeV.

Incorrect. You only think you've pointed out hypocrisy. Idle gossip about a private individuals income is wrong in any language, regardless of what is placed in some signature field on an internet forum. I actually find it far more hypocritical that you're only one post away from threatening a ban whenever someone takes issue with you, or that you've only decided to take issue with "spam" signatures when you find fault with someone, given the amount of "spam" signatures on every forum on boards. You're wrong on this one, and rather than threatening to delete accounts, I would prefer moderation of the offending post, and we'll leave it at that.

Also "fight on my turf"? C'mon? Really?

DeVore

hahha, what nonsense. It has nothing to do with you disagreeing with me. You said:

"I'll consider that carte blanche to advertise my services all over boards."

I'm making it clear that if you do that (in a fit of childish pique I might add). I'll remove your ability to break our rules.

You put your profession into the public domain and then asked why it was referenced.

DeV.

Barry.Oglesby

DeVore wrote: »

hahha, what nonsense. It has nothing to do with you disagreeing with me. You said:

"I'll consider that carte blanche to advertise my services all over boards."

I'm making it clear that if you do that (in a fit of childish pique I might add). I'll remove your ability to break our rules.

You put your profession into the public domain and then asked why it was referenced.

DeV.

You are seemingly unfamiliar with the concepts of hyperbole and irony, so I'll explain: "I'll consider that carte blanche to advertise my services all over boards." is not a genuine statement of intent, just a method of pointing out that if my personal finances are up for discussion on boards.ie, then surely so is my method of earning my crust. Seemingly (and it's obvious to me anyway) this is not so, and as such I request that the statement be moderated and withdrawn. This is the second time I've asked. Remember now, I am not a username, this is my real name.

As regards my "profession" being in the public domain. Every sole trader or self employed individual places their profession in the public domain, it's how they get business. They are still entitled to privacy and protection from people speculating on how they make their money. particularly as John's assertion is well wide of the mark in this instance.

shanesmith

I'm a teen and i'd jump at the chance to fight on a show like CC, gets the name out there and good exposure for what way the gyms we're coming from treat teens. Never feel under high pressure in the spotlight, the only pressure im under is the Leaving Cert

Barry.Oglesby

shanesmith wrote: »

I'm a teen and i'd jump at the chance to fight on a show like CC, gets the name out there and good exposure for what way the gyms we're coming from treat teens. Never feel under high pressure in the spotlight, the only pressure im under is the Leaving Cert

Stupid leaving cert

I understand that Shane and no one is suggesting you wouldn't be able for it!

RAMA 5

I applaud CC for giving juniors a chance...and have to agree with Paul and the reasons he puts juniors up (getting experience)...as some of you know i spent 7 years in Thailand on the pro Muay Thai circuit...and the kids out there are fighting PRO from 7-8 years of age...now dont get me wrong, i wouldnt want that to ever happen here, but if the parent of said child gives permission and his coach (providing he knows what the feck he is doing) thinks he is ready..then why not. But juniors should only be fighting juniors eg. 14 to 16 years of age.... It can only be to the benefit of MMA in Ireland as you can be sure as sh*t it happens and will continue to happen in the rest of Europe..perhaps that is why N.Ireland/Ireland seems to lag behind in most sports. People like MMAIRELANDFAN want to hold theses kids back...
Oh for the record..the kids in Thailand fight in front of crowds a lot bigger than here...up to 16,000 at Lumpinee stadium or Ratchadamnoen Stadium

DeVore

I watched two 9 year olds put on a show in Chiang Mai a couple of years ago. I cant say I didnt have some western "guilt" feelings over paying money to see a night of fights (which I didnt realise would start with fighters so young). My local guide told me not to judge by our standards. He reminded me that we played hurling and GAA as kids and I certainly got more than my fair share of injuries in them.

Muay Thai is part of their culture and they think nothing more of kids fighting in competitions than we do of sending kids into scrums and rucks. Occasionally to never walk again unfortunately.

I'll say it again, the elite should not be limited by the mediocrity of strangers.


DeV.

Barry.Oglesby

RAMA 5 wrote: »

I applaud CC for giving juniors a chance...and have to agree with Paul and the reasons he puts juniors up (getting experience)...as some of you know i spent 7 years in Thailand on the pro Muay Thai circuit...and the kids out there are fighting PRO from 7-8 years of age...now dont get me wrong, i wouldnt want that to ever happen here, but if the parent of said child gives permission and his coach (providing he knows what the feck he is doing) thinks he is ready..then why not. But juniors should only be fighting juniors eg. 14 to 16 years of age.... It can only be to the benefit of MMA in Ireland as you can be sure as sh*t it happens and will continue to happen in the rest of Europe..perhaps that is why N.Ireland/Ireland seems to lag behind in most sports. People like MMAIRELANDFAN want to hold theses kids back...
Oh for the record..the kids in Thailand fight in front of crowds a lot bigger than here...up to 16,000 at Lumpinee stadium or Ratchadamnoen Stadium

The Thai model is hardly one we want to follow. I know you're hardly suggesting that, but it's one thing having kids fighting for money and their family income at 10 years old, and another in a first world country trying to develop good athletes and good people too. Remember that sport is fleeting. At best we get 20 years to do it at a reasonable level, 25% of our lives. If you're a responsible coach, you keep that in mind and try to ensure that you respect the child's personal, academic and sporting development, and understand that no matter how "talented" you think he is, that he is only with you for a short time, so you'd better make sure to have a positive impact.

I watched two 9 year olds put on a show in Chiang Mai a couple of years ago. I cant say I didnt have some western "guilt" feelings over paying money to see a night of fights (which I didnt realise would start with fighters so young). My local guide told me not to judge by our standards. He reminded me that we played hurling and GAA as kids and I certainly got more than my fair share of injuries in them.

Did you play hurling for money? Did strange men on the sidelines take bets on you and then berate you when they lost? Were you told "you're going to be a hurler to get us out of poverty"? The Thai model is a third world model born out of poverty. For every successful fighter there are thousands of broken young men. Thais think we're nuts because we fight for fun. Given a half a chance to drop Muay Thai and take up college, I'd say 99% of young thaiboxers would jump.

I'll say it again, the elite should not be limited by the mediocrity of strangers.

And just to clarify, you do what for young fighters in this country that gives you the right to make a pronouncement like this? Oh yes. Nothing.

You are hopelessly ill-informed on this subject, and this last sentence, which sounds great in a cheesy Captain Picard kind of way, bears that out. We are not talking about the "Elite", we are talking about hundreds of kids, 1 of whom will be lucky to get to the "elite" level. Sure, for some the path to the top is early pressure, but for way more than that, the path to the top has been careful nurturing, development of skills, and a slow rise during their formative years.

Who would you rather your son was- Oscar De la Hoya or Roberto Duran?

Martin Walker

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

As I've stated before, it's not some emotional issue and we can all tell heart warming personal stories about both success and failures. This isn't about Mark or about one of my kids, this is about the law, about Duty of Care and about the pressures on kids. I've no doubt that many kids can handle the pressure, and I've also no doubt that many kids fail to express themselves properly because they're getting too much too soon.

I was simply using Mark as an example. He is more than able to compete against other young people of his age like James Gallagher and Hughie O`Rourke. The venue and promotion, in my opinion, is irrelevant. There are lots of very talented young men in Irish MMA now i think they have every right to compete on any show the wish.

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

No it's not. As JF said earlier, it's regulate or be regulated. One day someone will walk in and slap a big banned sticker on an event, they're already looking for an excuse. It won't just affect the kid and his coach/manager, it will affect everyone if a show gets banned or if an injury occurs.

Erm yes it is. If the coach is anything like he/she should be then they will know if its time for the young person to compete and at what level.

Also im not being a c-unit but who exactly are you talking about here? Who will slap a banned sticker on an event?
Who is looking for an excuse? How do you know "they" are infact looking?
Like i said im genuinely curious to know who "They" are and what power they actually have to stop you. So please dont think im mixing.

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Who was giving out about John in this thread? John puts on teen matches in big shows but so do Battlezone and Man of War. I don't think we need to personalise this.

My bad here ill hold my hands up. No-one mentioned John at all. But the last i knew JF was the only "business man" promoting a show in Ireland that is not affiiated with a club. That may be different now as ive not been "in the loop" if you will for a year or so now. So if i took comments out of context i apologise. Im sure John will be ok with what im saying though.

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

The difficulty (as usual) is that it's too hard to have a debate without someone going "are you talking about me?" or "ooohh, he must be talking about him". We're all in this together and while I know I'm battling the tide with a teaspoon, I'm just trying to give my opinion as an experienced youth coach on what I 1) believe is morally right and wrong wrt to the treatment of minors, and 2) what is legally right and wrong wrt to the treatment of minors. I'm not trying to piss on any promotion. If I want to say something to John, Andy, Stefan then I will say it to their faces. This is a debate about the general issues.

This made me lol! Gonna have to use this line myself.:p

curious100

RAMA 5 wrote: »

I applaud CC for giving juniors a chance...and have to agree with Paul and the reasons he puts juniors up (getting experience)...as some of you know i spent 7 years in Thailand on the pro Muay Thai circuit...and the kids out there are fighting PRO from 7-8 years of age...now dont get me wrong, i wouldnt want that to ever happen here, but if the parent of said child gives permission and his coach (providing he knows what the feck he is doing) thinks he is ready..then why not. But juniors should only be fighting juniors eg. 14 to 16 years of age.... It can only be to the benefit of MMA in Ireland as you can be sure as sh*t it happens and will continue to happen in the rest of Europe..perhaps that is why N.Ireland/Ireland seems to lag behind in most sports. People like MMAIRELANDFAN want to hold theses kids back...
Oh for the record..the kids in Thailand fight in front of crowds a lot bigger than here...up to 16,000 at Lumpinee stadium or Ratchadamnoen Stadium

Totally agree!!;)

Anakin.S

I would think that the responsibility of a teen fighters readiness for a 'major' show is down to their coach.

As for a teen fighting a senior... even if they both the same weight I feel it depends upon the age difference, I could understand a year or 18 months difference but not anymore than that and again the responsibility should be on the shoulders of the coach.

DeVore

Who is suggesting, promoting or allowing teen vs adult matchups? Is this a fictional strawman or something which is happening?

Everyone seems to be agreed that its not on so I'm confused who (if anyone) is promoting it.

DeV.

Sid_Justice

It's barry's birthday today i think he should get a free pass to say what ever he wants

cowzerp

Sid_Justice wrote: »

It's barry's birthday today i think he should get a free pass to say what ever he wants

Boards and possibly the internet would explode so let's just stick to the happy birthdays!

Barry.Oglesby

It's not my birthday anymore but I'll explain my position anyway.

Here's what I think is happening:
- There are too many shows battling with each other for the same limited amount of fighters. ALL of these shows are put on for monetary gain, though some would say that they are "grassroots" and as such moneys earned filter back down to the fighters much more than the larger shows. I actually think that this is more or less irrelevant in the context of duty of care. Big or little, you charge money at the door which makes it an enterprise no matter how minor.

- Due to the limited pool of fighters and the huge amount of shows, I believe that rather than "giving youth a chance", "youth" is actually being used to pad out fight cards. This sells tickets, so essentially kids who are not old enough to vote, have a job or drink a beer are being asked to sell tickets and make money for these shows. I think this is wrong.

Before anyone jumps down my throat- I don't think anyone does this on purpose. I don't think promoters sit in a swivel chair with a white cat wondering which child they'll traumatise next. I just think it's not considered.

Now I'm not a member of the Joe Duffy Brigade, and I'm actually quite liberal when it comes to the majority of things, but having worked with kids for a decade now in several sports, I can tell you what I've seen working, and for the vast majority of kids, slow introduction to competition and pressure is the optimum way of ensuring that they mature as athletes and as people. It gives them a greater opportunity to showcase their skills and to build confidence in what they've learned.

Comparisons with most other sports are horsepuckey. Your GAA final that was played in croker or your run in Santry Stadium was after you'd played hundreds of matches, thousands of minutes in local parks, on grass tracks and in front of a few Mams and Dads and some lad walking his dog.

pablohoney87

Some good points alright Barry.
Would you suggest teens just train or that they train and compete in the arts seperately. Sub wrestling/bjj/amature kickboxing(they're on an open mat right?)
Im not really a fan of teens on the show either because every teen that has been to a show theyre immediate thought is that they wanna get in the cage regardless of how much experience they have. Saying that there are a few out there who do have the experience and abilities to be on these shows.

John Ferguson

DeVore wrote: »

Who is suggesting, promoting or allowing teen vs adult matchups? Is this a fictional strawman or something which is happening?

Everyone seems to be agreed that its not on so I'm confused who (if anyone) is promoting it.

DeV.

This is currently happening in Irish MMA.

Be under no illusion the final buck stops with the event promoter. I have heard the argument from one promoter that the juniors dad had signed a slip to say that he was happy for it to go ahead, if something goes wrong this will not hold water, period.

The easy way to stop it is for the promoter to make the proper call or for the Ref to say he won't ref a junior v adult match up.

Martin Walker wrote: »

Also im not being a c-unit but who exactly are you talking about here? Who will slap a banned sticker on an event?
Who is looking for an excuse? How do you know "they" are infact looking?
Like i said im genuinely curious to know who "They" are and what power they actually have to stop you. So please dont think im mixing.

I see the answer to this one being quite simple:

If there was bad publicity it is very easy to ban an event. The council in the area where the event is being held will just start to implement and be sticky with the licensing laws. All events that are held where the public can come and watch fall under these laws, if in a place with a bar they can use the licencing laws and if there is no bar the will use Health and Safety Executive laws. The event does not need to be on council property for the HSE to stop it.

They will come to the event and look at things like:

• Are there X licensed security guards per 100 people
• Is there a minimum 0.6m leg room for each seat
• Are all walk ways and gaps a minimum of 1.5
• Have they been given detailed risk plans

Now that is only 4 items that I know most smaller shows could get pulled up on (I'm not getting at the other promoters, I am just pointing out the law as it stands currently). There are many other little ones like the list above that could be used to ban an event (issue a prohibition notice)

John Ferguson

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

I don't think anyone does this on purpose. I don't think promoters sit in a swivel chair with a white cat wondering which child they'll traumatise next.

I'm off to Viking direct for a new chair and will be stopping at the pet shop for a moggie on the way home

DeVore

If minor versus adult matchups are part of any promoters line up, I'd like to know. I dont want them using Boards as a platform to promote such an event. I dont know who that is... and I don't care.

DeV.

DeVore

If minor versus adult matchups are part of any promoters line up, I'd like to know. I dont want them using Boards as a platform to promote such an event. I dont know who that is... and I don't care.

DeV.