Teen fights on major shows Debate

MMAIRELANDFAN

yesiamhuge wrote: »

teen fight there

Teen fight on the biggest show in Ireland
Im sure the UFC are nervous..

Should Kids have to fight under the spotlight of 3 thousand blood thirsty fans?

John Ferguson

MMAIRELANDFAN wrote: »

Teen fight on the biggest show in Ireland
Im sure the UFC are nervous..

Should Kids have to fight under the spotlight of 3 thousand blood thirsty fans?

LOL do you really have to be such a tool?? CC has one teen fight at the start of each show and as long as coaches keep wanting it it's not changing, get over it and move on!! :rolleyes:

Gorey_R

MMAIRELANDFAN wrote: »

Teen fight on the biggest show in Ireland
Im sure the UFC are nervous..

Should Kids have to fight under the spotlight of 3 thousand blood thirsty fans?

I never understand this attitude. Whats's wrong with teens doing there thing in front of 3000 'blood thirsty fans'? Do you think it's a problem when minor hurlers play in front of 30000 fans and a t.v audience? Or is it different? I don't think it's different. MMA is just a game. Teens do it because it's fun! I think it's a good thing to give upcoming atheletes a platform that allows them to showcase their skills.

In my opinion pretty much everything you say MMAIRELANDFAN is either ignorant or totally wrong. And sometimes when i read your comments i get an urge to throw my glass of tropical juice through the monitor.

DeVore

Cant believe people dissing teen fights a few pages back. I went to the last CC and the teen fight was one of the best on the night, maybe the best and better than 80% of MMA fights I have seen on TV. The two lads went at it with serious skills and it was a war too. never backed off, didnt gas, didnt give or ask any quarter. It went to the ground and they showed serious skills there too, almost too fast to watch. Little cardio bunnies
I think I even said it on the night to John that it was impressive.

There were no "blood thirsty" fans for that fight or any other. In fact I was impressed with the fans who (with the exception of a couple of the usual clowns) clearly understood the sport. Lots of cheering for their guy, very little if any booing.

Silly, ill-informed argument. I trained martial arts as a teen and I consider it to have been a very positive influence on me.

DeV.

MMAIRELANDFAN

DeVore wrote: »

Cant believe people dissing teen fights a few pages back. I went to the last CC and the teen fight was one of the best on the night, maybe the best and better than 80% of MMA fights I have seen on TV. The two lads went at it with serious skills and it was a war too. never backed off, didnt gas, didnt give or ask any quarter. It went to the ground and they showed serious skills there too, almost too fast to watch. Little cardio bunnies
I think I even said it on the night to John that it was impressive.

There were no "blood thirsty" fans for that fight or any other. In fact I was impressed with the fans who (with the exception of a couple of the usual clowns) clearly understood the sport. Lots of cheering for their guy, very little if any booing.

Silly, ill-informed argument. I trained martial arts as a teen and I consider it to have been a very positive influence on me.

DeV.

Your missing the point
Kids fighting on a show that is such high pressure is not right and puts them under unnecessary pressure even if some may enjoy it.
its not about ability as there are many talented teens in Ireland especially the north.
Stick to low pressure shows or better again the amateur league.

John Ferguson wrote: »

Yes Ray I totally agree, but remember CC was only created to give belts to SBGi because they are not capable of winning them anywhere else*

* Also sarcasm, notice how the poster in reference had SFA to say about Myles v Norman on CCXI either

You can hardly give them easy fights now that the whole MMA scene know about these bad mismatches and will be watching to see if it happens again.

And on the Myles v Norman thing
Norman easily beat Myles and should have been 1st to fight for that title anyway and people have been calling for Norman to fight for this title for ages.

Im going to go to this show and will give honest report back on how i feel fights where matched

I've nothing to lose or gain so will be calling it as i see it.

tommyl2010

MMAIRELANDFAN wrote: »

Your missing the point
Kids fighting on a show that is such high pressure is not right and puts them under unnecessary pressure even if some may enjoy it.
its not about ability as there are many talented teens in Ireland especially the north.
Stick to low pressure shows or better again the amateur league.

This is silly. thats like saying oh a young football team should never play in front of a big crowd in croke park in case the pressure gets to them, where as you could ask every single one of them and they would tell you it was the best day of there lives. Instead of assuming an opinion and making up your own mind that these "kids" are under pressure why not ask some of the ones who have previously fought how they felt about it!!

MMAIRELANDFAN

tommyl2010 wrote: »

This is silly. thats like saying oh a young football team should never play in front of a big crowd in croke park in case the pressure gets to them, where as you could ask every single one of them and they would tell you it was the best day of there lives. Instead of assuming an opinion and making up your own mind that these "kids" are under pressure why not ask some of the ones who have previously fought how they felt about it!!

Would the GAA be making a fortune for using the kids?

No. plus the pressure is shared between the whole team so not that bad

where in MMA its 1 on 1 and kid losing in front of 3000 people is not nice.

You cant say Cage Contender and others are putting them on to help the kids :rolleyes:

DeVore

MMAIRELANDFAN wrote: »

Your missing the point
Kids fighting on a show that is such high pressure is not right and puts them under unnecessary pressure even if some may enjoy it.
its not about ability as there are many talented teens in Ireland especially the north.
Stick to low pressure shows or better again the amateur league.

You are projecting your emotions onto everyone else. You might not feel like you would want to but perhaps they do.

When I was a youngster I was a sprinter, a damned good one too. International standard and running 11.0 in the 100M at 16. I ran in Santry and represented Dublin and Ireland against Aus and Liverpool.

If you want high pressure, try running the 100 at such an event. 1000's in the stands and everything depending on a split second, a good start and you're made, a bad start and you've wasted a years worth of getting up in the morning heading to the beach to sprint on sand, hours in the gym, weights on your ankles. All of it for 11 seconds while everyone you care about watches.


I loved it. Loved every minute of it. Wouldnt trade it for anything and it made me realise that this world comes down to a split second decision sometimes.


You might not like that sort of pressure and I hope nobody ever forces a kid to fight who didnt want to but don't project your feelings onto EVERYONE else.

Some people thrive on that sort of pressure, that sort of "this is it, one shot, do or die" atmosphere. Believe me, after that... everything else has the volume turned down.


DeV.

MMAIRELANDFAN

DeVore wrote: »

You are projecting your emotions onto everyone else. You might not feel like you would want to but perhaps they do.

When I was a youngster I was a sprinter, a damned good one too. International standard and running 11.0 in the 100M at 16. I ran in Santry and represented Dublin and Ireland against Aus and Liverpool.

If you want high pressure, try running the 100 at such an event.

I respect the fact you had pressure but losing a sprint does not near compare to losing in a 1 on 1 fight where there is 1 winner and 1 loser
Nothing compares to the feeling of winning or losing a fight
Agony or ectasy.
not 6-7 counting runners up 3rd place etc

racso1975

Honestly do take performance reducing drugs when ya post?
Nobody who ever finish's a race thinks ah well there were 5 others out there as bad as me! And 1 thing i do know when competeing at that level is 2nd and 3rd is damn all consolation no matter what any body says

cowzerp

I dont want to be seen to backup Mmairelandfan but I agree 100% after doing Many sports including sprints and cross country, Gaa, soccer and more and nothing is comparible to the feeling of winning/losing in combat sports.

I have 2 teen fights on next rumble, whole reason is give my kids experience.

Tito Ortiz

cowzerp wrote: »

I dont want to be seen to backup Mmairelandfan but I agree 100% after doing Many sports including sprints and cross country, Gaa, soccer and more and nothing is comparible to the feeling of winning/losing in combat sports.

I have 2 teen fights on next rumble, whole reason is give my kids experience.[/QUOTE]
Not to agree with mmaireland but I don't agree with teens fights either.I think all fights should be over 18's as often they may not be ready physically or mentally. The idea of fighting rather than fighting is many guys ambition.
Also I have seen a couple of fights lately that have been guys making a debut against more seasoned guys.
If guys want to put cards on it's important to make as even matches as possible.

DeVore

MMAIRELANDFAN wrote: »

I respect the fact you had pressure but losing a sprint does not near compare to losing in a 1 on 1 fight where there is 1 winner and 1 loser
Nothing compares to the feeling of winning or losing a fight
Agony or ectasy.
not 6-7 counting runners up 3rd place etc

Tell that to someone who has just worked every day, every evening, every weekend when their mates were out with girlfriends, when they cant gorge on sweets at a cinema showing, when they have sacrificed everything up to and sometimes including their studies just to work that extra bit harder in the gym.

I'm not talking about your school's sports day here. I'm talking about top level athletes. Have you any idea how hard it is to run 100m in 11 seconds flat? There are probably 3 teens in the country who can do it I'd guess. Most adult men in the Olympic finals do it in 10.x , to put it in context.

I came second in the All Ireland Finals. Believe me, I'd been in manys a fight as a lad and I would gladly have been beaten to a pulp to win that medal.

You know nothing of the mentality of winners mate, from what you are saying. There is nothing but focus and visualisation. Nothing but self belief and absolute commitment to the point of self-harm.

It doesnt matter what sport, losing hurts every bit as much because its the mentality that matters.


Ask anyone here who has fought in a ring what hurt more, the punches or the losing...?


DeV.

John Ferguson

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

I want to see teenage fighters gain experience and grow into the sport, and I don't believe a high pressure environment like CC is the place in which to do that.

Baz, maybe you or perhaps Cowzerp could educate me on something? Do the Irish Boxing Board have minors fighting in the stadium? and if so how many people would be watching?

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

moral and legal obligations to minors.

While as always I take your point on board, I for one would be more concerned about the moral and legal obligations of the shows that are still allowing minors to fight adults. It is happening more and more and it seems that it is being ignored.

Barry.Oglesby

DeVore wrote: »

Barry, fair points and I don't completely disagree with you but I do disagree that we should limit teens 16+with society's nannying and race to mediocrity. My only point I wanted to make is that some people thrive on what others would find stressful and that the mentality of a top level athlete is always going to be so. I was giving a counterpoint to Mmafans point that the poor dears might it all too much stress.

I don't doubt that many kids are more than capable of competing at the highest level and performing under extreme duress. I never stated that they weren't. This has nothing about a "race to mediocrity" and everything to do with nurturing talent and allowing kids to grow into the sport and express their skills properly. No one is talking about not letting them compete, just allowing them to compete in a properly structured youth system. Kids aren't going to suffer from a lack of competition.

John the boxing nationals at The Stadium are attended by about 2,000 people. These kids are the creme de la creme of young boxers in Ireland who have fought their way through in regional championships and have been nurtured over the course of several years. There is no alcohol or ring girls etc. etc. and the admission is about €5 for a kid and €15 for an adult (from memory). All monies from the event are filtered back into the AIBA which then provides funding for national squads, tournaments, buys bags/pads/gloves/headgear for clubs in need around the country and is a publicly accountable, not for profit organisation which provides a priceless public service to disadvantaged communities.

In short I don't think MMA promotions and amateur boxing are comparable really.

With regard to adults facing minors. Yes I think it's very wrong, and it would also be easily fixed with a youth system.

I know we've been down this road before and myself and 2 or 3 others are fighting the tide of public opinion on this matter.

Jason McCabe

Barry when is ur next amateur championship? I think between it and the league teens have ample oppurtunity to compete.

I also believe fighters are being stepped up to the bigger shows far too quickly. How long would someone box and what would their record be before they would be out in front of 1000s of people?

Maybe there should be more shows like it Barry's and less shows trying to put on Pro fights.

bjj-fighter

I completely agree with Barry on the Teen issue, being a teen myself (well 18 now). I think the MMA league is a great introduction and then Barry's amatuer show is a fantasic step up from that. I don't feel that the skill level of teenagers is at the level yet that it warrants being on shows like Cage Contender etc, I think that a lot of guys need more experience at a lower level before making the big step up.

cowzerp

In boxing seniors are separated to juniors, there is loads of seperate category's and it's makes sense not comparing a professional business to an amateur organisation, also amateurs and pros don't fight on the same Shows and on occasion they do it's elite adults such as Katie Taylor.

I personally won't put kids on a show I considered high pressure or a business and would prefer they fight on club shows or amateur shows such as Barrys and marks, Or a low pressure show such as the rumble

John Ferguson

cowzerp wrote: »

I personally won't put kids on a show I considered high pressure or a business and would prefer they fight on club shows or amateur shows such as Barrys and marks, Or a low pressure show such as the rumble

It's a side issue but I doubt very much any show in Ireland is not put on to make money.

cowzerp

John Ferguson wrote: »

It's a side issue but I doubt very much any show in Ireland is not put on to make money.

Not saying that making money is wrong in any way as its not but a club making money to pay rent and buy gear is very different than a business man making a living from it.

Club shows are not making money worth talking about for the hours put in trying to run 1.

Tito Ortiz

cowzerp wrote: »

Not saying that making money is wrong in any way as its not but a club making money to pay rent and buy gear is very different than a business man making a living from it.

Club shows are not making money worth talking about for the hours put in trying to run 1.

Ouch !!

John Ferguson

cowzerp wrote: »

In boxing seniors are separated to juniors, there is loads of seperate category's and it's makes sense not comparing a professional business to an amateur organisation, also amateurs and pros don't fight on the same Shows and on occasion they do it's elite adults such as Katie Taylor.

I personally won't put kids on a show I considered high pressure or a business and would prefer they fight on club shows or amateur shows such as Barrys and marks, Or a low pressure show such as the rumble

cowzerp wrote: »

Not saying that making money is wrong in any way as its not but a club making money to pay rent and buy gear is very different than a business man making a living from it.

Club shows are not making money worth talking about for the hours put in trying to run 1.

In many ways I agree, but i think it differs for maybe you and Barry who are full time coaches. This means that the shows profit supplements your income regardless if the profit is spent on rent, gear etc for the club which is in effect your business. I as you all know have no problems with people making profit from anything they do, at the end of the day we are are entitled to make a shilling for our time. The question I asked about the boxing board was more about the numbers in the arena and the pressure rather than the profit made and how it is distributed.

John Ferguson

Tito Ortiz wrote: »

Ouch !!

I don't take any offense. CC runs as a business, we are very open and make no apology for it. I invest heavily in the brand and expect a return on that investment (lol which is much harder than people would believe )

I'm sure cowzerp meant no offense so none taken

cowzerp

Ok, I've boxed in nationals as a kid in front of 50 people more sometimes but never too many, as an adult it would be full house, also most fans are boxers and there Is no drink allowed in the stadium-comparing the boxing is a bad example, and on a side note, the crowd who attend amateur boxing are less interested in seeing blood and more sport orientated, this is fact and not an ignorant opinion.

Point been, chalk and cheese.

John Ferguson

cowzerp wrote: »

Point been, chalk and cheese.

I think its far from point blank, but I'm sure this is one of those occasions where we won't ever agree so lets move on!!

Barry.Oglesby

John Ferguson wrote: »

In many ways I agree, but i think it differs for maybe you and Barry who are full time coaches. This means that the shows profit supplements your income regardless if the profit is spent on rent, gear etc for the club which is in effect your business.

Since when is my income how I make it open for discussion on a public forum?

DeVore

Since when is my income how I make it open for discussion on a public forum?
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DeV

SDTimeout

cowzerp wrote: »

Ok, I've boxed in nationals as a kid in front of 50 people more sometimes but never too many, as an adult it would be full house, also most fans are boxers and there Is no drink allowed in the stadium-comparing the boxing is a bad example, and on a side note, the crowd who attend amateur boxing are less interested in seeing blood and more sport orientated, this is fact and not an ignorant opinion.

Point been, chalk and cheese.

I would agree with this, my friend boxed for years and he always told me the shows he liked were the ones his dad took him too which were literally about experience.

Similar to the MMA League or Barrys IP Sub comps as opposed to Big No-Gi ones. ( Barry's however is probably the biggest in Ireland atm, i just mean comparable to the UK Scene )

DeVore

I do agree that a solid "youth" structure is the key to any sport. Its been demonstrated again and again, from Rugby (why do you think Leinster is so good... maybe its because 'Rock, Clongowes, Marys, Belvo etc are little training academies for them... and I attended the latter!) through Soccer (you think Man U train up teens for the good of the sport??)

That is fine for the mainstream and those who want to progress at their own pace. In my case (to continue the simile) I was destroying schools sprinting laughably. There is nothing to be learned from outstripping a bunch of clowns in tracksuits by 20 metres (which we frequently did) on grass. How does that prepare you for Santry and the big competitions.

By 20 if you arent pushing Olmpic qualifying, you are a has-been. Some kids are exceptional, and they need exceptional training and fast tracking if they want to make it in their chosen sports.

Now, where I *DO* agree with Barry is that teens should never fight outside of a 1 year age spread. They should absolutely never fight adults. They probably should have some modified rules. The majority need nurturing and training in a protected, structured environment.

But as a teen, personally, I never let anyone limit me and part of that rears up when I hear people project their values onto others. I'm a libertarian at heart and if the kid is ready to step into the big ring and he's ready (by our judgement) to compete with his peers... who are we to clip his wings?

DeV.

John Ferguson

DeVore wrote: »

Now, where I *DO* agree with Barry is that teens should never fight outside of a 1 year age spread. They should absolutely never fight adults. They probably should have some modified rules. The majority need nurturing and training in a protected, structured environment.

Have a look at the table at the bottom of section 12 on this LINK
And I def agree with Barry on the minor fighting adult issue, I have brought the subject up now on 3 separate threads when relevant and am shocked how little notice people are taking of it. This is a very serious issue that could set the sport back years if something was to go wrong

Clive

John Ferguson wrote: »

And I def agree with Barry on the minor fighting adult issue, I have brought the subject up now on 3 separate threads when relevant and am shocked how little notice people are taking of it. This is a very serious issue that could set the sport back years if something was to go wrong

Agreed, I had a thread on it here and I think some people still don't realise just how disastrous something going wrong in a minor versus adult matchup could be.