Teen fights on major shows Debate

MMAIRELANDFAN

yesiamhuge wrote: »

teen fight there

Teen fight on the biggest show in Ireland
Im sure the UFC are nervous..

Should Kids have to fight under the spotlight of 3 thousand blood thirsty fans?

John Ferguson

MMAIRELANDFAN wrote: »

Teen fight on the biggest show in Ireland
Im sure the UFC are nervous..

Should Kids have to fight under the spotlight of 3 thousand blood thirsty fans?

LOL do you really have to be such a tool?? CC has one teen fight at the start of each show and as long as coaches keep wanting it it's not changing, get over it and move on!! :rolleyes:

Gorey_R

MMAIRELANDFAN wrote: »

Teen fight on the biggest show in Ireland
Im sure the UFC are nervous..

Should Kids have to fight under the spotlight of 3 thousand blood thirsty fans?

I never understand this attitude. Whats's wrong with teens doing there thing in front of 3000 'blood thirsty fans'? Do you think it's a problem when minor hurlers play in front of 30000 fans and a t.v audience? Or is it different? I don't think it's different. MMA is just a game. Teens do it because it's fun! I think it's a good thing to give upcoming atheletes a platform that allows them to showcase their skills.

In my opinion pretty much everything you say MMAIRELANDFAN is either ignorant or totally wrong. And sometimes when i read your comments i get an urge to throw my glass of tropical juice through the monitor.

DeVore

Cant believe people dissing teen fights a few pages back. I went to the last CC and the teen fight was one of the best on the night, maybe the best and better than 80% of MMA fights I have seen on TV. The two lads went at it with serious skills and it was a war too. never backed off, didnt gas, didnt give or ask any quarter. It went to the ground and they showed serious skills there too, almost too fast to watch. Little cardio bunnies
I think I even said it on the night to John that it was impressive.

There were no "blood thirsty" fans for that fight or any other. In fact I was impressed with the fans who (with the exception of a couple of the usual clowns) clearly understood the sport. Lots of cheering for their guy, very little if any booing.

Silly, ill-informed argument. I trained martial arts as a teen and I consider it to have been a very positive influence on me.

DeV.

MMAIRELANDFAN

DeVore wrote: »

Cant believe people dissing teen fights a few pages back. I went to the last CC and the teen fight was one of the best on the night, maybe the best and better than 80% of MMA fights I have seen on TV. The two lads went at it with serious skills and it was a war too. never backed off, didnt gas, didnt give or ask any quarter. It went to the ground and they showed serious skills there too, almost too fast to watch. Little cardio bunnies
I think I even said it on the night to John that it was impressive.

There were no "blood thirsty" fans for that fight or any other. In fact I was impressed with the fans who (with the exception of a couple of the usual clowns) clearly understood the sport. Lots of cheering for their guy, very little if any booing.

Silly, ill-informed argument. I trained martial arts as a teen and I consider it to have been a very positive influence on me.

DeV.

Your missing the point
Kids fighting on a show that is such high pressure is not right and puts them under unnecessary pressure even if some may enjoy it.
its not about ability as there are many talented teens in Ireland especially the north.
Stick to low pressure shows or better again the amateur league.

John Ferguson wrote: »

Yes Ray I totally agree, but remember CC was only created to give belts to SBGi because they are not capable of winning them anywhere else*

* Also sarcasm, notice how the poster in reference had SFA to say about Myles v Norman on CCXI either

You can hardly give them easy fights now that the whole MMA scene know about these bad mismatches and will be watching to see if it happens again.

And on the Myles v Norman thing
Norman easily beat Myles and should have been 1st to fight for that title anyway and people have been calling for Norman to fight for this title for ages.

Im going to go to this show and will give honest report back on how i feel fights where matched

I've nothing to lose or gain so will be calling it as i see it.

tommyl2010

MMAIRELANDFAN wrote: »

Your missing the point
Kids fighting on a show that is such high pressure is not right and puts them under unnecessary pressure even if some may enjoy it.
its not about ability as there are many talented teens in Ireland especially the north.
Stick to low pressure shows or better again the amateur league.

This is silly. thats like saying oh a young football team should never play in front of a big crowd in croke park in case the pressure gets to them, where as you could ask every single one of them and they would tell you it was the best day of there lives. Instead of assuming an opinion and making up your own mind that these "kids" are under pressure why not ask some of the ones who have previously fought how they felt about it!!

MMAIRELANDFAN

tommyl2010 wrote: »

This is silly. thats like saying oh a young football team should never play in front of a big crowd in croke park in case the pressure gets to them, where as you could ask every single one of them and they would tell you it was the best day of there lives. Instead of assuming an opinion and making up your own mind that these "kids" are under pressure why not ask some of the ones who have previously fought how they felt about it!!

Would the GAA be making a fortune for using the kids?

No. plus the pressure is shared between the whole team so not that bad

where in MMA its 1 on 1 and kid losing in front of 3000 people is not nice.

You cant say Cage Contender and others are putting them on to help the kids :rolleyes:

DeVore

MMAIRELANDFAN wrote: »

Your missing the point
Kids fighting on a show that is such high pressure is not right and puts them under unnecessary pressure even if some may enjoy it.
its not about ability as there are many talented teens in Ireland especially the north.
Stick to low pressure shows or better again the amateur league.

You are projecting your emotions onto everyone else. You might not feel like you would want to but perhaps they do.

When I was a youngster I was a sprinter, a damned good one too. International standard and running 11.0 in the 100M at 16. I ran in Santry and represented Dublin and Ireland against Aus and Liverpool.

If you want high pressure, try running the 100 at such an event. 1000's in the stands and everything depending on a split second, a good start and you're made, a bad start and you've wasted a years worth of getting up in the morning heading to the beach to sprint on sand, hours in the gym, weights on your ankles. All of it for 11 seconds while everyone you care about watches.


I loved it. Loved every minute of it. Wouldnt trade it for anything and it made me realise that this world comes down to a split second decision sometimes.


You might not like that sort of pressure and I hope nobody ever forces a kid to fight who didnt want to but don't project your feelings onto EVERYONE else.

Some people thrive on that sort of pressure, that sort of "this is it, one shot, do or die" atmosphere. Believe me, after that... everything else has the volume turned down.


DeV.

MMAIRELANDFAN

DeVore wrote: »

You are projecting your emotions onto everyone else. You might not feel like you would want to but perhaps they do.

When I was a youngster I was a sprinter, a damned good one too. International standard and running 11.0 in the 100M at 16. I ran in Santry and represented Dublin and Ireland against Aus and Liverpool.

If you want high pressure, try running the 100 at such an event.

I respect the fact you had pressure but losing a sprint does not near compare to losing in a 1 on 1 fight where there is 1 winner and 1 loser
Nothing compares to the feeling of winning or losing a fight
Agony or ectasy.
not 6-7 counting runners up 3rd place etc

racso1975

Honestly do take performance reducing drugs when ya post?
Nobody who ever finish's a race thinks ah well there were 5 others out there as bad as me! And 1 thing i do know when competeing at that level is 2nd and 3rd is damn all consolation no matter what any body says

cowzerp

I dont want to be seen to backup Mmairelandfan but I agree 100% after doing Many sports including sprints and cross country, Gaa, soccer and more and nothing is comparible to the feeling of winning/losing in combat sports.

I have 2 teen fights on next rumble, whole reason is give my kids experience.

Tito Ortiz

cowzerp wrote: »

I dont want to be seen to backup Mmairelandfan but I agree 100% after doing Many sports including sprints and cross country, Gaa, soccer and more and nothing is comparible to the feeling of winning/losing in combat sports.

I have 2 teen fights on next rumble, whole reason is give my kids experience.[/QUOTE]
Not to agree with mmaireland but I don't agree with teens fights either.I think all fights should be over 18's as often they may not be ready physically or mentally. The idea of fighting rather than fighting is many guys ambition.
Also I have seen a couple of fights lately that have been guys making a debut against more seasoned guys.
If guys want to put cards on it's important to make as even matches as possible.

DeVore

MMAIRELANDFAN wrote: »

I respect the fact you had pressure but losing a sprint does not near compare to losing in a 1 on 1 fight where there is 1 winner and 1 loser
Nothing compares to the feeling of winning or losing a fight
Agony or ectasy.
not 6-7 counting runners up 3rd place etc

Tell that to someone who has just worked every day, every evening, every weekend when their mates were out with girlfriends, when they cant gorge on sweets at a cinema showing, when they have sacrificed everything up to and sometimes including their studies just to work that extra bit harder in the gym.

I'm not talking about your school's sports day here. I'm talking about top level athletes. Have you any idea how hard it is to run 100m in 11 seconds flat? There are probably 3 teens in the country who can do it I'd guess. Most adult men in the Olympic finals do it in 10.x , to put it in context.

I came second in the All Ireland Finals. Believe me, I'd been in manys a fight as a lad and I would gladly have been beaten to a pulp to win that medal.

You know nothing of the mentality of winners mate, from what you are saying. There is nothing but focus and visualisation. Nothing but self belief and absolute commitment to the point of self-harm.

It doesnt matter what sport, losing hurts every bit as much because its the mentality that matters.


Ask anyone here who has fought in a ring what hurt more, the punches or the losing...?


DeV.

John Ferguson

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

I want to see teenage fighters gain experience and grow into the sport, and I don't believe a high pressure environment like CC is the place in which to do that.

Baz, maybe you or perhaps Cowzerp could educate me on something? Do the Irish Boxing Board have minors fighting in the stadium? and if so how many people would be watching?

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

moral and legal obligations to minors.

While as always I take your point on board, I for one would be more concerned about the moral and legal obligations of the shows that are still allowing minors to fight adults. It is happening more and more and it seems that it is being ignored.

Barry.Oglesby

DeVore wrote: »

Barry, fair points and I don't completely disagree with you but I do disagree that we should limit teens 16+with society's nannying and race to mediocrity. My only point I wanted to make is that some people thrive on what others would find stressful and that the mentality of a top level athlete is always going to be so. I was giving a counterpoint to Mmafans point that the poor dears might it all too much stress.

I don't doubt that many kids are more than capable of competing at the highest level and performing under extreme duress. I never stated that they weren't. This has nothing about a "race to mediocrity" and everything to do with nurturing talent and allowing kids to grow into the sport and express their skills properly. No one is talking about not letting them compete, just allowing them to compete in a properly structured youth system. Kids aren't going to suffer from a lack of competition.

John the boxing nationals at The Stadium are attended by about 2,000 people. These kids are the creme de la creme of young boxers in Ireland who have fought their way through in regional championships and have been nurtured over the course of several years. There is no alcohol or ring girls etc. etc. and the admission is about €5 for a kid and €15 for an adult (from memory). All monies from the event are filtered back into the AIBA which then provides funding for national squads, tournaments, buys bags/pads/gloves/headgear for clubs in need around the country and is a publicly accountable, not for profit organisation which provides a priceless public service to disadvantaged communities.

In short I don't think MMA promotions and amateur boxing are comparable really.

With regard to adults facing minors. Yes I think it's very wrong, and it would also be easily fixed with a youth system.

I know we've been down this road before and myself and 2 or 3 others are fighting the tide of public opinion on this matter.

Jason McCabe

Barry when is ur next amateur championship? I think between it and the league teens have ample oppurtunity to compete.

I also believe fighters are being stepped up to the bigger shows far too quickly. How long would someone box and what would their record be before they would be out in front of 1000s of people?

Maybe there should be more shows like it Barry's and less shows trying to put on Pro fights.

bjj-fighter

I completely agree with Barry on the Teen issue, being a teen myself (well 18 now). I think the MMA league is a great introduction and then Barry's amatuer show is a fantasic step up from that. I don't feel that the skill level of teenagers is at the level yet that it warrants being on shows like Cage Contender etc, I think that a lot of guys need more experience at a lower level before making the big step up.

cowzerp

In boxing seniors are separated to juniors, there is loads of seperate category's and it's makes sense not comparing a professional business to an amateur organisation, also amateurs and pros don't fight on the same Shows and on occasion they do it's elite adults such as Katie Taylor.

I personally won't put kids on a show I considered high pressure or a business and would prefer they fight on club shows or amateur shows such as Barrys and marks, Or a low pressure show such as the rumble

John Ferguson

cowzerp wrote: »

I personally won't put kids on a show I considered high pressure or a business and would prefer they fight on club shows or amateur shows such as Barrys and marks, Or a low pressure show such as the rumble

It's a side issue but I doubt very much any show in Ireland is not put on to make money.

cowzerp

John Ferguson wrote: »

It's a side issue but I doubt very much any show in Ireland is not put on to make money.

Not saying that making money is wrong in any way as its not but a club making money to pay rent and buy gear is very different than a business man making a living from it.

Club shows are not making money worth talking about for the hours put in trying to run 1.

Tito Ortiz

cowzerp wrote: »

Not saying that making money is wrong in any way as its not but a club making money to pay rent and buy gear is very different than a business man making a living from it.

Club shows are not making money worth talking about for the hours put in trying to run 1.

Ouch !!

John Ferguson

cowzerp wrote: »

In boxing seniors are separated to juniors, there is loads of seperate category's and it's makes sense not comparing a professional business to an amateur organisation, also amateurs and pros don't fight on the same Shows and on occasion they do it's elite adults such as Katie Taylor.

I personally won't put kids on a show I considered high pressure or a business and would prefer they fight on club shows or amateur shows such as Barrys and marks, Or a low pressure show such as the rumble

cowzerp wrote: »

Not saying that making money is wrong in any way as its not but a club making money to pay rent and buy gear is very different than a business man making a living from it.

Club shows are not making money worth talking about for the hours put in trying to run 1.

In many ways I agree, but i think it differs for maybe you and Barry who are full time coaches. This means that the shows profit supplements your income regardless if the profit is spent on rent, gear etc for the club which is in effect your business. I as you all know have no problems with people making profit from anything they do, at the end of the day we are are entitled to make a shilling for our time. The question I asked about the boxing board was more about the numbers in the arena and the pressure rather than the profit made and how it is distributed.

John Ferguson

Tito Ortiz wrote: »

Ouch !!

I don't take any offense. CC runs as a business, we are very open and make no apology for it. I invest heavily in the brand and expect a return on that investment (lol which is much harder than people would believe )

I'm sure cowzerp meant no offense so none taken

cowzerp

Ok, I've boxed in nationals as a kid in front of 50 people more sometimes but never too many, as an adult it would be full house, also most fans are boxers and there Is no drink allowed in the stadium-comparing the boxing is a bad example, and on a side note, the crowd who attend amateur boxing are less interested in seeing blood and more sport orientated, this is fact and not an ignorant opinion.

Point been, chalk and cheese.

John Ferguson

cowzerp wrote: »

Point been, chalk and cheese.

I think its far from point blank, but I'm sure this is one of those occasions where we won't ever agree so lets move on!!

Barry.Oglesby

John Ferguson wrote: »

In many ways I agree, but i think it differs for maybe you and Barry who are full time coaches. This means that the shows profit supplements your income regardless if the profit is spent on rent, gear etc for the club which is in effect your business.

Since when is my income how I make it open for discussion on a public forum?

DeVore

Since when is my income how I make it open for discussion on a public forum?
__________________
Kyuzo Gym
BJJ-MMA-Muay Thai Training,
Slaney Road (Beside Woodies DIY,
Glasnevin,
Dublin 11

Children's Jiu Jitsu Summer Camp

Since its in your sig perhaps?


DeV

SDTimeout

cowzerp wrote: »

Ok, I've boxed in nationals as a kid in front of 50 people more sometimes but never too many, as an adult it would be full house, also most fans are boxers and there Is no drink allowed in the stadium-comparing the boxing is a bad example, and on a side note, the crowd who attend amateur boxing are less interested in seeing blood and more sport orientated, this is fact and not an ignorant opinion.

Point been, chalk and cheese.

I would agree with this, my friend boxed for years and he always told me the shows he liked were the ones his dad took him too which were literally about experience.

Similar to the MMA League or Barrys IP Sub comps as opposed to Big No-Gi ones. ( Barry's however is probably the biggest in Ireland atm, i just mean comparable to the UK Scene )

DeVore

I do agree that a solid "youth" structure is the key to any sport. Its been demonstrated again and again, from Rugby (why do you think Leinster is so good... maybe its because 'Rock, Clongowes, Marys, Belvo etc are little training academies for them... and I attended the latter!) through Soccer (you think Man U train up teens for the good of the sport??)

That is fine for the mainstream and those who want to progress at their own pace. In my case (to continue the simile) I was destroying schools sprinting laughably. There is nothing to be learned from outstripping a bunch of clowns in tracksuits by 20 metres (which we frequently did) on grass. How does that prepare you for Santry and the big competitions.

By 20 if you arent pushing Olmpic qualifying, you are a has-been. Some kids are exceptional, and they need exceptional training and fast tracking if they want to make it in their chosen sports.

Now, where I *DO* agree with Barry is that teens should never fight outside of a 1 year age spread. They should absolutely never fight adults. They probably should have some modified rules. The majority need nurturing and training in a protected, structured environment.

But as a teen, personally, I never let anyone limit me and part of that rears up when I hear people project their values onto others. I'm a libertarian at heart and if the kid is ready to step into the big ring and he's ready (by our judgement) to compete with his peers... who are we to clip his wings?

DeV.

John Ferguson

DeVore wrote: »

Now, where I *DO* agree with Barry is that teens should never fight outside of a 1 year age spread. They should absolutely never fight adults. They probably should have some modified rules. The majority need nurturing and training in a protected, structured environment.

Have a look at the table at the bottom of section 12 on this LINK
And I def agree with Barry on the minor fighting adult issue, I have brought the subject up now on 3 separate threads when relevant and am shocked how little notice people are taking of it. This is a very serious issue that could set the sport back years if something was to go wrong

Clive

John Ferguson wrote: »

And I def agree with Barry on the minor fighting adult issue, I have brought the subject up now on 3 separate threads when relevant and am shocked how little notice people are taking of it. This is a very serious issue that could set the sport back years if something was to go wrong

Agreed, I had a thread on it here and I think some people still don't realise just how disastrous something going wrong in a minor versus adult matchup could be.

John Ferguson

Clive wrote: »

Agreed, I had a thread on it here and I think some people still don't realise just how disastrous something going wrong in a minor versus adult matchup could be.

Even if nothing was to go wrong it could still be disastrous, let's say for a minute that the Duffy brigade got hold of a story where these cage fighting people let a 14 year old child fight a 21 year old man for example. It would result in media carnage. Then on the back of this as we don't legislate our selves some civil servant will decide they will save us the bother and do it for us.

Barry.Oglesby

DeVore wrote: »

Since its in your sig perhaps?


DeV

So speculation on people's private income is okay then?

Fine.

I'll consider that carte blanche to advertise my services all over boards.

Barry.Oglesby

I think specifics are in order. I'm personally only aware of 2 incidents involving the same young lad. Has it every happened again?

John Ferguson

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

I think specifics are in order. I'm personally only aware of 2 incidents involving the same young lad. Has it every happened again?

There was another mentioned on the Tuffnut thread last week, is that the same one as you are thinking?

Barry.Oglesby

I don't think so. I know we're all wary of mentioning names and rightly so probably. Let's stick to the issues so.

I don't think it would just be the Joe Duffy brigade who'd be up in arms about this. I think a lot of MMA fans generally would consider this wrong.

Jason McCabe

Coaches and promoters who do not bother to take the time or effort to protect their junior are failing in their duty of care.

If an incident ever ends up in front of a judge you better make sure your house is not in your name.

Plus if a kid ever does get seriously hurt fighting an adult it will be on your conscience.

Mouthalmighty

I totally agree, a situation where a teen fights an adult (regardless of weight class) is totally wrong & bad for the sport.

Just throwing an idea out there like they do in soccer rugby etc age groups like Under 17, Under 18. I know that may cause promoters headaches along with all the other problems I'm not writing here.

But I agree with John we NEED to regulate ourselves to prevent this crap from happening!! Otherwise a knee jerk reaction to a situation (as tends to happen in Ireland) will result in serious implications for the sport.

Why don't a group of the more reputable coaches & promoters come together to iron out problems like this so we can be proactive & head off problems before they occur.
The Liveline Brigade only look for excuses.....
Barry's amateur shows seem to be that happy medium for all.

Martin Walker

My younger brother Mark now fights at the old c-class level in Ireland. He is 15. He has fought on Cage Contender, Immortal, Spartan and Battlezone. Never once has he said he didnt like fighting infront of lots of people. Does he get nervous? Yes. Everyone does. To say that anyone is making money specifically by having juniors on the show is just fiction. Juniors belong on MMA shows in Ireland. Mark trains everyday with the full pros in our gym so i feel he has every right to put his skills to use in the same show as the rest of them. Some people on here need to give there head a shake.

The subject of juniors fighting seniors is a bit of a no brainer to be honest. The final word is down to the coaches/managers. If JF came to me (when i was involved with AMMA) and suggested to match Mark or any of our other juniors for that matter with a lad even two years older than him i would tell him where to go. Not because i want an easier fight but because i dont want the lad getting put off and stopping a potential carrer before it started.

On a side note, NEWSFLASH John Ferguson is a Promoter. Hes in the sport to make money. He has never hidden this and from day one has been up front about this. I do not like it and many on here dont either, but its not gonna change any time soon so get over it. John knows my feelings on these thiings as ive told him face to face and im not hating. CC is leading the way for everyone in the game now. If you think you can do it better stop bitching and stand up and do it. Its not easy ill be the first to say it. I tried with mixed results. Some things went well and some didnt. Such is life.

Barry.Oglesby

Martin Walker wrote: »

My younger brother Mark now fights at the old c-class level in Ireland. He is 15. He has fought on Cage Contender, Immortal, Spartan and Battlezone. Never once has he said he didnt like fighting infront of lots of people. Does he get nervous? Yes. Everyone does. To say that anyone is making money specifically by having juniors on the show is just fiction. Juniors belong on MMA shows in Ireland. Mark trains everyday with the full pros in our gym so i feel he has every right to put his skills to use in the same show as the rest of them. Some people on here need to give there head a shake.

As I've stated before, it's not some emotional issue and we can all tell heart warming personal stories about both success and failures. This isn't about Mark or about one of my kids, this is about the law, about Duty of Care and about the pressures on kids. I've no doubt that many kids can handle the pressure, and I've also no doubt that many kids fail to express themselves properly because they're getting too much too soon.

The subject of juniors fighting seniors is a bit of a no brainer to be honest. The final word is down to the coaches/managers.

No it's not. As JF said earlier, it's regulate or be regulated. One day someone will walk in and slap a big banned sticker on an event, they're already looking for an excuse. It won't just affect the kid and his coach/manager, it will affect everyone if a show gets banned or if an injury occurs.

On a side note, NEWSFLASH John Ferguson is a Promoter. Hes in the sport to make money. He has never hidden this and from day one has been up front about this. I do not like it and many on here dont either, but its not gonna change any time soon so get over it. John knows my feelings on these thiings as ive told him face to face and im not hating. CC is leading the way for everyone in the game now. If you think you can do it better stop bitching and stand up and do it. Its not easy ill be the first to say it. I tried with mixed results. Some things went well and some didnt. Such is life.

Who was giving out about John in this thread? John puts on teen matches in big shows but so do Battlezone and Man of War. I don't think we need to personalise this.

The difficulty (as usual) is that it's too hard to have a debate without someone going "are you talking about me?" or "ooohh, he must be talking about him". We're all in this together and while I know I'm battling the tide with a teaspoon, I'm just trying to give my opinion as an experienced youth coach on what I 1) believe is morally right and wrong wrt to the treatment of minors, and 2) what is legally right and wrong wrt to the treatment of minors. I'm not trying to piss on any promotion. If I want to say something to John, Andy, Stefan then I will say it to their faces. This is a debate about the general issues.

DeVore

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

So speculation on people's private income is okay then?

Fine.

I'll consider that carte blanche to advertise my services all over boards.

Go ahead and see how long your account lasts mate. You asked and I pointed out your hypocrisy. You are already in breach of sig-spam rules but if you want a fight on my turf, fine.

DeV.

Barry.Oglesby

DeVore wrote: »

Go ahead and see how long your account lasts mate. You asked and I pointed out your hypocrisy. You are already in breach of sig-spam rules but if you want a fight on my turf, fine.

DeV.

Incorrect. You only think you've pointed out hypocrisy. Idle gossip about a private individuals income is wrong in any language, regardless of what is placed in some signature field on an internet forum. I actually find it far more hypocritical that you're only one post away from threatening a ban whenever someone takes issue with you, or that you've only decided to take issue with "spam" signatures when you find fault with someone, given the amount of "spam" signatures on every forum on boards. You're wrong on this one, and rather than threatening to delete accounts, I would prefer moderation of the offending post, and we'll leave it at that.

Also "fight on my turf"? C'mon? Really?

DeVore

hahha, what nonsense. It has nothing to do with you disagreeing with me. You said:

"I'll consider that carte blanche to advertise my services all over boards."

I'm making it clear that if you do that (in a fit of childish pique I might add). I'll remove your ability to break our rules.

You put your profession into the public domain and then asked why it was referenced.

DeV.

Barry.Oglesby

DeVore wrote: »

hahha, what nonsense. It has nothing to do with you disagreeing with me. You said:

"I'll consider that carte blanche to advertise my services all over boards."

I'm making it clear that if you do that (in a fit of childish pique I might add). I'll remove your ability to break our rules.

You put your profession into the public domain and then asked why it was referenced.

DeV.

You are seemingly unfamiliar with the concepts of hyperbole and irony, so I'll explain: "I'll consider that carte blanche to advertise my services all over boards." is not a genuine statement of intent, just a method of pointing out that if my personal finances are up for discussion on boards.ie, then surely so is my method of earning my crust. Seemingly (and it's obvious to me anyway) this is not so, and as such I request that the statement be moderated and withdrawn. This is the second time I've asked. Remember now, I am not a username, this is my real name.

As regards my "profession" being in the public domain. Every sole trader or self employed individual places their profession in the public domain, it's how they get business. They are still entitled to privacy and protection from people speculating on how they make their money. particularly as John's assertion is well wide of the mark in this instance.

shanesmith

I'm a teen and i'd jump at the chance to fight on a show like CC, gets the name out there and good exposure for what way the gyms we're coming from treat teens. Never feel under high pressure in the spotlight, the only pressure im under is the Leaving Cert

Barry.Oglesby

shanesmith wrote: »

I'm a teen and i'd jump at the chance to fight on a show like CC, gets the name out there and good exposure for what way the gyms we're coming from treat teens. Never feel under high pressure in the spotlight, the only pressure im under is the Leaving Cert

Stupid leaving cert

I understand that Shane and no one is suggesting you wouldn't be able for it!

RAMA 5

I applaud CC for giving juniors a chance...and have to agree with Paul and the reasons he puts juniors up (getting experience)...as some of you know i spent 7 years in Thailand on the pro Muay Thai circuit...and the kids out there are fighting PRO from 7-8 years of age...now dont get me wrong, i wouldnt want that to ever happen here, but if the parent of said child gives permission and his coach (providing he knows what the feck he is doing) thinks he is ready..then why not. But juniors should only be fighting juniors eg. 14 to 16 years of age.... It can only be to the benefit of MMA in Ireland as you can be sure as sh*t it happens and will continue to happen in the rest of Europe..perhaps that is why N.Ireland/Ireland seems to lag behind in most sports. People like MMAIRELANDFAN want to hold theses kids back...
Oh for the record..the kids in Thailand fight in front of crowds a lot bigger than here...up to 16,000 at Lumpinee stadium or Ratchadamnoen Stadium

DeVore

I watched two 9 year olds put on a show in Chiang Mai a couple of years ago. I cant say I didnt have some western "guilt" feelings over paying money to see a night of fights (which I didnt realise would start with fighters so young). My local guide told me not to judge by our standards. He reminded me that we played hurling and GAA as kids and I certainly got more than my fair share of injuries in them.

Muay Thai is part of their culture and they think nothing more of kids fighting in competitions than we do of sending kids into scrums and rucks. Occasionally to never walk again unfortunately.

I'll say it again, the elite should not be limited by the mediocrity of strangers.


DeV.

Barry.Oglesby

RAMA 5 wrote: »

I applaud CC for giving juniors a chance...and have to agree with Paul and the reasons he puts juniors up (getting experience)...as some of you know i spent 7 years in Thailand on the pro Muay Thai circuit...and the kids out there are fighting PRO from 7-8 years of age...now dont get me wrong, i wouldnt want that to ever happen here, but if the parent of said child gives permission and his coach (providing he knows what the feck he is doing) thinks he is ready..then why not. But juniors should only be fighting juniors eg. 14 to 16 years of age.... It can only be to the benefit of MMA in Ireland as you can be sure as sh*t it happens and will continue to happen in the rest of Europe..perhaps that is why N.Ireland/Ireland seems to lag behind in most sports. People like MMAIRELANDFAN want to hold theses kids back...
Oh for the record..the kids in Thailand fight in front of crowds a lot bigger than here...up to 16,000 at Lumpinee stadium or Ratchadamnoen Stadium

The Thai model is hardly one we want to follow. I know you're hardly suggesting that, but it's one thing having kids fighting for money and their family income at 10 years old, and another in a first world country trying to develop good athletes and good people too. Remember that sport is fleeting. At best we get 20 years to do it at a reasonable level, 25% of our lives. If you're a responsible coach, you keep that in mind and try to ensure that you respect the child's personal, academic and sporting development, and understand that no matter how "talented" you think he is, that he is only with you for a short time, so you'd better make sure to have a positive impact.

I watched two 9 year olds put on a show in Chiang Mai a couple of years ago. I cant say I didnt have some western "guilt" feelings over paying money to see a night of fights (which I didnt realise would start with fighters so young). My local guide told me not to judge by our standards. He reminded me that we played hurling and GAA as kids and I certainly got more than my fair share of injuries in them.

Did you play hurling for money? Did strange men on the sidelines take bets on you and then berate you when they lost? Were you told "you're going to be a hurler to get us out of poverty"? The Thai model is a third world model born out of poverty. For every successful fighter there are thousands of broken young men. Thais think we're nuts because we fight for fun. Given a half a chance to drop Muay Thai and take up college, I'd say 99% of young thaiboxers would jump.

I'll say it again, the elite should not be limited by the mediocrity of strangers.

And just to clarify, you do what for young fighters in this country that gives you the right to make a pronouncement like this? Oh yes. Nothing.

You are hopelessly ill-informed on this subject, and this last sentence, which sounds great in a cheesy Captain Picard kind of way, bears that out. We are not talking about the "Elite", we are talking about hundreds of kids, 1 of whom will be lucky to get to the "elite" level. Sure, for some the path to the top is early pressure, but for way more than that, the path to the top has been careful nurturing, development of skills, and a slow rise during their formative years.

Who would you rather your son was- Oscar De la Hoya or Roberto Duran?

Martin Walker

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

As I've stated before, it's not some emotional issue and we can all tell heart warming personal stories about both success and failures. This isn't about Mark or about one of my kids, this is about the law, about Duty of Care and about the pressures on kids. I've no doubt that many kids can handle the pressure, and I've also no doubt that many kids fail to express themselves properly because they're getting too much too soon.

I was simply using Mark as an example. He is more than able to compete against other young people of his age like James Gallagher and Hughie O`Rourke. The venue and promotion, in my opinion, is irrelevant. There are lots of very talented young men in Irish MMA now i think they have every right to compete on any show the wish.

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

No it's not. As JF said earlier, it's regulate or be regulated. One day someone will walk in and slap a big banned sticker on an event, they're already looking for an excuse. It won't just affect the kid and his coach/manager, it will affect everyone if a show gets banned or if an injury occurs.

Erm yes it is. If the coach is anything like he/she should be then they will know if its time for the young person to compete and at what level.

Also im not being a c-unit but who exactly are you talking about here? Who will slap a banned sticker on an event?
Who is looking for an excuse? How do you know "they" are infact looking?
Like i said im genuinely curious to know who "They" are and what power they actually have to stop you. So please dont think im mixing.

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Who was giving out about John in this thread? John puts on teen matches in big shows but so do Battlezone and Man of War. I don't think we need to personalise this.

My bad here ill hold my hands up. No-one mentioned John at all. But the last i knew JF was the only "business man" promoting a show in Ireland that is not affiiated with a club. That may be different now as ive not been "in the loop" if you will for a year or so now. So if i took comments out of context i apologise. Im sure John will be ok with what im saying though.

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

The difficulty (as usual) is that it's too hard to have a debate without someone going "are you talking about me?" or "ooohh, he must be talking about him". We're all in this together and while I know I'm battling the tide with a teaspoon, I'm just trying to give my opinion as an experienced youth coach on what I 1) believe is morally right and wrong wrt to the treatment of minors, and 2) what is legally right and wrong wrt to the treatment of minors. I'm not trying to piss on any promotion. If I want to say something to John, Andy, Stefan then I will say it to their faces. This is a debate about the general issues.

This made me lol! Gonna have to use this line myself.:p

curious100

RAMA 5 wrote: »

I applaud CC for giving juniors a chance...and have to agree with Paul and the reasons he puts juniors up (getting experience)...as some of you know i spent 7 years in Thailand on the pro Muay Thai circuit...and the kids out there are fighting PRO from 7-8 years of age...now dont get me wrong, i wouldnt want that to ever happen here, but if the parent of said child gives permission and his coach (providing he knows what the feck he is doing) thinks he is ready..then why not. But juniors should only be fighting juniors eg. 14 to 16 years of age.... It can only be to the benefit of MMA in Ireland as you can be sure as sh*t it happens and will continue to happen in the rest of Europe..perhaps that is why N.Ireland/Ireland seems to lag behind in most sports. People like MMAIRELANDFAN want to hold theses kids back...
Oh for the record..the kids in Thailand fight in front of crowds a lot bigger than here...up to 16,000 at Lumpinee stadium or Ratchadamnoen Stadium

Totally agree!!;)