Is using 2 pin plugs in Ireland safe ?

Bruthal

dmclean1842 wrote: »

To be honest what your doing is ok as long as the house is wired correctly and the MCB on the circuit is not high rated.

Not a great idea though, with maybe a 0.75 flex to the filter and a 20 amp MCB as the first protection. And if it was a ring main, it would be 32 or 35 amp. Sometimes i think the rules in ireland are a bit over the top. But i would never see a plug fuse as a bad idea. For the simple sake of changing a plug.

user1842

robbie7730 wrote: »

Not a great idea though, with maybe a 0.75 flex to the filter and a 20 amp MCB as the first protection. And if it was a ring main, it would be 32 or 35 amp. Sometimes i think the rules in ireland are a bit over the top. But i would never see a plug fuse as a bad idea. For the simple sake of changing a plug.

Agreed but I would not change the plug in this instance. I would buy the adapter as a lot of plugs you get these days have 13amp fuses and people dont bother to replace them with lower value fuses to suit the appliance.

Bruthal

dmclean1842 wrote: »

Agreed but I would not change the plug in this instance. I would buy the adapter as a lot of plugs you get these days have 13amp fuses and people dont bother to replace them with lower value fuses to suit the appliance.

What fuse does the adaptor have in it?

user1842

robbie7730 wrote: »

What fuse does the adaptor have in it?

3 amp, think it used primarily for a shaver

Bruthal

dmclean1842 wrote: »

3 amp, think it used primarily for a shaver

Not a bad idea at all then, so they are the options

Short extension with plug fuse swapped to 3 amp

Or cut off and change 2 plugs and swap fuses to 3 amp ones while fitting plugs.

Or 2 of the adaptors linked in dmclean`s post #28, a good option.

user1842

robbie7730 wrote: »

Not a bad idea at all then, so they are the options

Short extension with plug fuse swapped to 3 amp

Or cut off and change 2 plugs and swap fuses to 3 amp ones while fitting plugs.

Or 2 of the adaptors linked in dmclean`s post #28, a good option.

You can buy the adapters in Tesco too, just make sure they are 3amp (which I think they are). Cant search the Tesco website for some reason

Bruthal

dmclean1842 wrote: »

You can buy the adapters in Tesco too, just make sure they are 3amp (which I think they are). Cant search the Tesco website for some reason.

Even if they are not 3 amp, its still a good option for someone that does not want to be changing plugs. Just check the fuse, and replace with 3 amp if they are 5 or 13.

sharkbite1983

robbie7730 wrote: »

You will be doing very well indeed to get a load of 0.087 amps to arc and melt anything, would an electrical engineer not know that? Not that loose connections are recommended or anything.

True about the small arc, but in general, I dont agree with people changing plugs/socket when they dont know how.

robbie7730 wrote: »

It may not be lethally dangerous to have no fuse in a plug, but saying a 3 amp fuse is useless because a portable appliance is taking only 0.086 amps is very amateur to be honest.

Fair point, but in the case of a short it should pull more than enough to blow next fuse down the line, at the board most likely.
Extension lead is prob the best, safest, easiest & quickest fix.

Theres plenty of appliances in a house hold that only have protection at the consumer unit and sometimes internally fused.
Immersion elements are hard wired straight from consumer unit with no localised fuse as are mini valves for heating zones.

Ireland's electrical standards, though very impressive, are way overboard at times.

sharkbite1983

robbie7730 wrote: »

Even if they are not 3 amp, its still a good option for someone that does not want to be changing plugs. Just check the fuse, and replace with 3 amp if they are 5 or 13.

also good to remember, every standard 3 pin plugtop will have 13amp written on it, that does not represent the fuse rating, that is the rating of the internal parts of said plugtop!!

Bruthal

sharkbite1983 wrote: »

True about the small arc, but in general, I dont agree with people changing plugs/socket when they dont know how.



Fair point, but in the case of a short it should pull more than enough to blow next fuse down the line, at the board most likely.
Extension lead is prob the best, safest, easiest & quickest fix.

Yes a direct short maybe, but what about if the flex on the appliance is damaged, and only a couple of strands touch each other, or there is only slight contact, this may not trip a 20 amp MCB or indeed a 32 amp one in a ring circuit, but could be a fire hazzard, a very small one, but something virtually elliminated by the simple provision of a suitable fuse. So saying the 3 amp fuse is of no use just because the actual appliance is taking a very small current, is not really ideal.

Theres plenty of appliances in a house hold that only have protection at the consumer unit and sometimes internally fused.
Immersion elements are hard wired straight from consumer unit with no localised fuse as are mini valves for heating zones.

The appliances you mention are fixed appliances less likely to be moved around than plug in items. Also, an immersion takes 13.5 amps, and its flex is 2.5 square, so rated to the 20 amp MCB supplying the circuit, although being a multi stranded flex, would still have the same problem as the plug in appliance flex if slightly damaged and strands are exposed, but its not a portable device that will have its flex plugged in and out.

You often see vacuum cleaners with their leads in bits from twisting etc during use and storage, a good example of where a plug fuse would be of good use.

The mini valves would have a 10amp circuit, or even better, 6 amp, probably the same circuit as the boiler, and have 1.5 flex and again are not portable appliances, and wont be moved around etc.

I know the fish tank filter may not be moved much, but it is a plug in appliances, and so should have the same criteria applied as any plug in appliance in ireland.

Ireland's electrical standards, though very impressive, are way overboard at times.

One or two of them are a bit over the top alright. But i dont think plug fuses are over the top though, as they are very simple and cheap to incorporate. I do agree the 2 pin plug used as is, is not a huge danger, but its a simple matter to have the proper fused plug, or adaptor.

Bruthal

sharkbite1983 wrote: »

also good to remember, every standard 3 pin plugtop will have 13amp written on it, that does not represent the fuse rating, that is the rating of the internal parts of said plugtop!!

Its actually the continous current rating of the contacts from the socket onto the plug pins.

M cebee

the 3amp and 13amp seems to be standard now

as robbie said they protect the appliance cord

from overload i'd say though-the breakers tend to trip on short-circuit with 13amp

golfdiva

Sharkbite thanks for your offer but I’m in Cork so it mite be a bit far to travel.

Ok just to make sure I understand this right. There is no need for me to cut off the existing 2-pin plug.

What I can do is buy an extension lead like this :

http://www.argos.ie/static/Product/partNumber/9821383/Trail/searchtext%3EEXTENSION+LEAD.htm

All I would need to do is change the fuse that’s in the extension lead to a 3 amp ?

Bruthal

golfdiva wrote: »

Sharkbite thanks for your offer but I’m in Cork so it mite be a bit far to travel.

Ok just to make sure I understand this right. There is no need for me to cut off the existing 2-pin plug.

What I can do is buy an extension lead like this :

http://www.argos.ie/static/Product/partNumber/9821383/Trail/searchtext%3EEXTENSION+LEAD.htm

All I would need to do is change the fuse that’s in the extension lead to a 3 amp ?

Yes do that and that will work fine. 3 amp fuse into the extension lead plug. And it will also be easier for you to plug the filter and heater out in one go for tank cleaning etc.

dMaN24

shogunpower wrote: »

that is dangerous because you could turn the plug upside down and insert it the way you describe which would be connecting the live to the neutral and the neutral to the live unless im missing something?

This sounds a bit odd, seeing that you then would require to have it labeled up/down or right/wrong way all over the European countries that apply to this standard.

Or how do you mean?

I have been using many plugs like these both ways without any issues at all whatsoever. I'd find it fairly outlandish if there would be a "prescibed method of connectivity"

Bruthal

dMaN24 wrote: »

This sounds a bit odd, seeing that you then would require to have it labeled up/down or right/wrong way all over the European countries that apply to this standard.

Or how do you mean?

I have been using many plugs like these both ways without any issues at all whatsoever. I'd find it fairly outlandish if there would be a "prescibed method of connectivity"

Yes it makes no difference with AC, (as i mentioned in post #11), so tv`s radio`s, washing machines, kettles, showers etc(unless a machine is neutralised, which i thought i seen in intel with some of the tools installed there).

Its still best to keep to the brown to live, blue to neutral setup though when the occasion arises.

It would make a difference with DC though, as motors would reverse etc, some electronic devices wont work, and could be damaged.

A universal motor which works on AC or DC wont reverse with a reversing of a DC supply to it though.

lightnin

Handy website for future reference
http://www.powerconnections.co.uk/converters.htm

Available with either a 3,5 or 10 Amp BS1362 approved fuse



Available here
http://cpcireland.farnell.com/jsp/search/results.jsp?N=411&Ntk=gensearch_003&Ntt=POWERCONNECTIONS&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&suggestions=false&ref=globalsearch&_requestid=1016429&isGoback=false&displaytext=&isRedirect=false

Bruthal

lightnin wrote: »

Handy website for future reference
http://www.powerconnections.co.uk/converters.htm

Available with either a 3,5 or 10 Amp BS1362 approved fuse



Available here
http://cpcireland.farnell.com/jsp/search/results.jsp?N=411&Ntk=gensearch_003&Ntt=POWERCONNECTIONS&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&suggestions=false&ref=globalsearch&_requestid=1016429&isGoback=false&displaytext=&isRedirect=false

Very good, no end of options these days.

Bruthal

M cebee wrote: »

though-the breakers tend to trip on short-circuit with 13amp

Id say thats for sure. Can the 13 amp fuses survive it do you think? On a direct short.

pegasus1

M cebee wrote: »

the 3amp and 13amp seems to be standard now

as robbie said they protect the appliance cord

from overload i'd say though-the breakers tend to trip on short-circuit with 13amp

The fuse, wheather it be in the distribution board or on a plug is there to protect the cable, not the appliance! end of!

Bruthal

pegasus1 wrote: »

The fuse, wheather it be in the distribution board or on a plug is there to protect the cable, not the appliance! end of!

Nothing worse than that phrase `end of`, except a kick in the town halls:D

user1842

robbie7730 wrote: »

Nothing worse than that phrase `end of`:D

Also the fuse is not there to protect the cable, it there to protect the person in case of shock or house in case of fire

M cebee

pegasus1 wrote: »

The fuse, wheather it be in the distribution board or on a plug is there to protect the cable, not the appliance! end of!

ya thanks for that

appliance cord=cable

Bruthal

dmclean1842 wrote: »

Also the fuse is not there to protect the cable, it there to protect the person in case of shock or house in case of fire

Actually, no, the 3 amp fuse will never blow no matter how severe a person is getting shocked, unless the 2 conductors happen to come in contact during the event. That is what the RCD is for, although that will not trip on a Live to Neutral shock while insulated from the ground, but neither will a 3 amp fuse, not a hope. If 3 amps flows through a person, its almost certain instant death, and would in fact take far higher than 230v to achieve.

0.03 amps is the danger level roughly, and 3 amps is 100 times this.

user1842

robbie7730 wrote: »

Actually, no, the 3 amp fuse will never blow no matter how severe a person is getting shocked, that is what the RCD is for, although that will not trip on a Live to Neutral shock, but neither will a 3 amp fuse, not a hope. If 3 amps flows through a person, its almost certain instant death, and would in fact take far higher than 230v to achieve.

0.03 amps is the danger level roughly, and 3 amps is 100 times this.

Sorry have to disagree with you there. If you grab a damaged cable and short the live and neutral with your hand the fuse will blow and a will probably save your life. It all depends how long the current is flowing through you.

Also im not sure how the RCD would trip if you hold the live and neutral while not touching anything and wearing shoes.

golfdiva

Sorry probably a total noob question. Say when I put the 3 amp fuse into the 4 gang extension cord. Is it ok to use the all 4 slots at the same time? Theres not a danger it would get overloaded or anything?

jimmyw

But sure the extension cable will have a fuse too.

Bruthal

dmclean1842 wrote: »

Sorry have to disagree with you there. If you grab a damaged cable and short the live and neutral with your hand the fuse will blow and a will probably save your life. It all depends how long the current is flowing through you.

But the 3 amp fuse is not saving you there as such, the short is, as i clearly mention in my post you quoted, and you decided to leave that part out for some reason when you quoted,, here it is again,

the 3 amp fuse will never blow no matter how severe a person is getting shocked, unless the 2 conductors happen to come in contact

And if there is no 3 amp fuse, it would be expected the MCB will trip if you happen to short the cable while getting electrocuted. If you are getting electrocuted, you will need a very high degree of luck to short the circuit if you are getting a shock from contact from one hand to another. If you just have the 2 conductors in one hand, and are insulated from the ground in shoes like you suggest, then your not in as much danger of being killed.

Also im not sure how the RCD would trip if you hold the live and neutral while not touching anything and wearing shoes.

The fact you mentioned shoes insulating you from the ground and not touching anything else is a good indication you know what your talking about anyway. They definitely do that in dry conditions.


But again, not reading my post properly, again, a refresher

That is what the RCD is for, although that will not trip on a Live to Neutral shock while insulated from the ground

So the thing is, if you are getting a shock L-N, a 3 amp fuse will not blow, except if you happen to short the conductors. If you have one in each hand, thats the real danger, and your probably most unlikely to manage to short them.

If you have both in one hand, then there is not going to be a life threatening shock, except if to earth as well through touching earthed metal etc, and thats where the RCD comes in, and is the only real function of an RCD, although it has other side benefits.

Obviously if you manage to touch both conductors during a severe shock, the 3 amo fuse will blow, and the lower the fuse, the easier it will go.

But realistically, the conductors wont short, and a 3 amp fuse will never blow from the current drawn through a severe shock.

Also, the 3 amp fuse only protecting the cable, it is there to protect the cable from on going overloading primarily. But if for example a trasnformer inside a tv develops a problem, the fuse may well blow, reducing the risk of fire for example. So they do have secondary benefits, just like an RCD.

Bruthal

golfdiva wrote: »

Sorry probably a total noob question. Say when I put the 3 amp fuse into the 4 gang extension cord. Is it ok to use the all 4 slots at the same time? Theres not a danger it would get overloaded or anything?

You can use the other outlets, the fuse stops them from being overloaded. Although i would recommend only using it for items to do with the aquarium.

JustAddWater

golfdiva wrote: »

How could you tell if the plug is a transformer as well ?

this...