Sinn Fein absence from royal events (mod warning: stay on topic!)

tayto lover

Someone has made a statement the day after the Queen left by bombing Derry City. Neanderthals still at work.

ardmacha

They could have taken a neutral type of position and attended the war memorial and possible Islandbridge and stayed away from Dublin Castle etc but they chose to boycot the visit completely

SF probably misjudged things to this extent. But there is unfinished business and successful as the visit was it is appropriate to mark this, as people tend to get carried away (you only have to read this thread).

However the dissidents got no encouragement from this visit, they couldn't manage a crowd themselves and SF didn't provide them either with demonstrations or anything to rant about.

medici

Clareboy wrote: »

I have great respect for Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness, but I was dissapointed to see that Sinn Fein were not represented at any of the events to do with the visit of Her Majesty.......What is their problem?

I think their problem is that the support base they've come to rely upon is completely misguided and have an understanding of republican politics that stops at the third verse of "The Fields of Athenry".

Seriously, comparing the urban youth of Belfast in the 1960s with the people setting off fireworks at guards in Dublin during the week, the similarities to be seen are nil. Experiencing deprivation and death on your doorstep will no doubt radicalize someone against the perpetrator of such acts.

Sinn Fein came to rely on supporters who witnessed and experienced these things daily. 40 or 50 years down the line, with that perpetrator's presence/visibility shrinking all the time, Sinn Fein's supporters today cling to old ideas of Irish nationalism that the party cannot be seen to abadon, hence refusing to appear at any of the Queen's visit events.

For an extra two cents to add to the above, I think the result of Sinn Fein's refusal to appear shows an overall immaturity that most Irish people have now come to recognise.

Happyman42

medici wrote: »

I think their problem is that the support base they've come to rely upon is completely misguided and have an understanding of republican politics that stops at the third verse of "The Fields of Athenry".

Seriously, comparing the urban youth of Belfast in the 1960s with the people setting off fireworks at guards in Dublin during the week, the similarities to be seen are nil. Experiencing deprivation and death on your doorstep will no doubt radicalize someone against the perpetrator of such acts.

Sinn Fein came to rely on supporters who witnessed and experienced these things daily. 40 or 50 years down the line, with that perpetrator's presence/visibility shrinking all the time, Sinn Fein's supporters today cling to old ideas of Irish nationalism that the party cannot be seen to abadon, hence refusing to appear at any of the Queen's visit events.

For an extra two cents to add to the above, I think the result of Sinn Fein's refusal to appear shows an overall immaturity that most Irish people have now come to recognise.

BUT not among their support. The absenting policy was a political move, it will not alienate anyone of their supporters and they will even attract those who winced at events of this week.
Had they attended they would have sent their supporters into the arms of the dissidents. SF judged the mood as it pertains to them very well if you ask me.
The dissidents will become more entrenched and consequently more dangerous.
I know who I would be blaming for all the above...the organisers of a premature and frankly fairly pointless visit (baring a few quid to the tourist industry, maybe! and a collective excuse to gush....'jeepers, hasn't she great strong legs for an 85 yr old! :D
You can wish the situation was different BUT it isn't.
We have not advanced from square one., SF maintained the status quo by absenting themselves ...thankfully.

walrusgumble

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

people like david mcwilliams and other familiar economic experts were expressing , clearly views of a minority, a few years ago. I suppose they were irrelevant then:rolleyes:

Happyman put the nail on the head regarding trying to maintain potential hot heads in provisional sinn fein and encouraging them not to move to the dissidents or another split. people commenting on how they shouldn't pander to their supporters who are "scum" really have not learned from the past. Who will deal with the "enemy" then, politically? Fine Gael? it is way to serious to laugh at such a ridiculous notion

medici

All I'm saying Happyman42 is that I think Sinn Fein's absence from the visit is just another sign of how captive they are to a tradition they can't afford to abandon because they'll lose what support base they have....and I think...thinkwe're in agreement to some extent on that point, i.e. them not wanting to alienate their support.

I reckon though that Sinn Fein need the "status quo" - or whatever version of it there is that suits them best - and cling to it tooth and nail as a means of holding what support they have.

By their absence frommthe visit this week then, I'm convinced that they've maintained internal cohesion at a cost of isolating themselves from those at a national level that are willing and working to progress from the so-called "square one".

R P McMurphy

If SF had participated it would not have gone down well at all in the 6 counties where their support base is. As is usual the discussion generally never takes into account the feelings of this nationalist population. SF are the second largest party in there 6 counties

Liam Byrne

R P McMurphy wrote: »

If SF had participated it would not have gone down well at all in the 6 counties where their support base is. As is usual the discussion generally never takes into account the feelings of this nationalist population. SF are the second largest party in there 6 counties

Did that "nationalist population" not vote for the GFA as well? The release of terrorists in return for a chance at normality?

Happyman42

R P McMurphy wrote: »

If SF had participated it would not have gone down well at all in the 6 counties where their support base is. As is usual the discussion generally never takes into account the feelings of this nationalist population. SF are the second largest party in there 6 counties

That's right on the money. Nobody exonerated Crown Forces by voting for the GFA. Only the most desperate of patronising point scoring royalists would try to say that.

SF's absence was not a 'bumbling mistake'. It was a considered and thought out strategy.

SF probably knew that the visit would go down well, hence the organised protests, but no disruption of the visit.

Their position and ethos is intact.

@ medici To try to infer that SF's absence shows that republicanism and the aspiration to a united Ireland is a dead ideology is the real insult to those commemorated in The Garden of Remembrance.
We didn't invite the Queen back to rule us, much and all as some would like that.:D

p.s. RTE finally stopped gushing for a while today and began some objective analysis...very interesting. I will try and find the link.

Soldie

Happyman42 wrote: »

That's right on the money. Nobody exonerated Crown Forces by voting for the GFA. Only the most desperate of patronising point scoring royalists would try to say that.

SF's absence was not a 'bumbling mistake'. It was a considered and thought out strategy.

SF probably knew that the visit would go down well, hence the organised protests, but no disruption of the visit.

Their position and ethos is intact.

@ medici To try to infer that SF's absence shows that republicanism and the aspiration to a united Ireland is a dead ideology is the real insult to those commemorated in The Garden of Remembrance.
We didn't invite the Queen back to rule us, much and all as some would like that.:D

p.s. RTE finally stopped gushing for a while today and began some objective analysis...very interesting. I will try and find the link.

You're criticising another poster for his biased explanation for Sinn Féin's absence while producing a biased explanation of your own. Sinn Féin had little option but to abstain from participating in the royal visit in any significant way given that they're already seen as sell outs amongst certain factions of the electorate in the North. A "considered and thought out strategy" my arse; more like they stuck their heads in the sand, hoped for the best and waited for Friday to come.

Happyman42

Soldie wrote: »

You're criticising another poster for his biased explanation for Sinn Féin's absence while producing a biased explanation of your own. Sinn Féin had little option but to abstain from participating in the royal visit in any significant way given that they're already seen as sell outs amongst certain factions of the electorate in the North. A "considered and thought out strategy" my arse; more like they stuck their heads in the sand, hoped for the best and waited for Friday to come.

So how do you explain the decision to protest but not disrupt? They were talking about that way before the visit...credit where credit is due?

The factions you speak of certainly exist, they give their support to the dissidents, there would be more of them today had SF not absented themselves.

Soldie

Happyman42 wrote: »

So how do you explain the decision to protest but not disrupt? They were talking about that way before the visit...credit where credit is due?

The factions you speak of certainly exist, they give their support to the dissidents, there would be more of them today had SF not absented themselves.

It was a sop to their more hard line supporters. You're describing Sinn Féin's actions as a political masterstroke, whereas in reality they had little room for manoeuvre.

Happyman42

Soldie wrote: »

It was a sop to their more hard line supporters. You're describing Sinn Féin's actions as a political masterstroke, whereas in reality they had little room for manoeuvre.

You are not making sense, you said, 'more like they stuck their heads in the sand, hoped for the best and waited for Friday to come.'
Now it's a 'sop' to their hard line supporters?....which suggests some element of planning and forethought, does it not?
SF are a mandated party no matter how much you and others dislike the fact. Inability to accept that and the mindset that they represent is a bit repressed and kind of a useless position in a discussion forum.
Maybe when calling for others to 'move on' some moving on and acceptance would be appropriate for you too?
To organise a 'protest but not disrupt' took a bit of planning and discipline.

medici

Happyman42 wrote: »

@ medici To try to infer that SF's absence shows that republicanism and the aspiration to a united Ireland is a dead ideology is the real insult to those commemorated in The Garden of Remembrance.
We didn't invite the Queen back to rule us, much and all as some would like that.:D

I think you're misunderstanding me Happyman42. I'm just trying to express my opinion (however flawed it may be) about what I think SF's absence from the week's events is going to mean for them on the national stage.

I'm going to leave the discussion at that though because with that peach of a line about the Queen above, you've just dispelled any doubt I had about some Sinn Fein supporters having to re-hash old lines in order to justify the existence of the party.

I bid you adieu!

mike65

The reaction to HRH visit is symptomatic of SFs problems in the south, sure they had a decent General Election (and in the current economic malaise they had to gain more seats) but it was no more than decent. The tribal politics of NI don't translate to the 26 so going big against the visit with large scale demos would have damaged them down here, SF have political ambitions way above 10-12 seats and being the (arguably reluctant) hub of bottle-throwing skangers would quickly alienate them from the people they need to get votes from.

Gerry Adams etc would have been acutely aware of the need to avoid ending up on Six-One explaining why Sinn Fein were facilitating an anti-Monarchy riot as Gardai and property were assaulted.

No doubt the boys and girls at HQ will review their handling of this visit while making notes about how they can be seen to embrace the atmosphere down here. The problem for SF as ever though is the "northern pull", they want to be a successful 32 county party but where they merely have to plug into the "green" vote in NI to be successful, in the ROI they have to find an appeal with a wider demographic that often isn't that interested in crude nationalism and may indeed have welcomed the Queens visit. Can they please both at the same time with the same rhetoric or do they have to tailor their appeal for two different markets? Can they do that while remaining a fully cohesive party?

Fuzzy Clam

Happyman42 wrote: »

We didn't invite the Queen back to rule us, much and all as some would like that.:D

It is with badly bitten tongue that I have thanked you for your previous post....with the exception of the above quote which I'm sure was written with tongue in cheek (whose cheek is another matter )
As much as I dislike SF, I do believe that other than embracing HRH, then absence was probably the best course of action. SF didn't disgrace themselves in the mainstream media that i saw.
As the saying goes : Absence make the heart grow fonder

Happyman42

medici wrote: »

I think you're misunderstanding me Happyman42. I'm just trying to express my opinion (however flawed it may be) about what I think SF's absence from the week's events is going to mean for them on the national stage.

I'm going to leave the discussion at that though because with that peach of a line about the Queen above, you've just dispelled any doubt I had about some Sinn Fein supporters having to re-hash old lines in order to justify the existence of the party.

I bid you adieu!

SF were probably the party that had to think hardest about how they were going to handle this visit.
There is a huge problem maintaining a serious political ideology in the face of group celebrity awe. Because the group don't want to listen and refuse to countenance complaint. (Notice the complete disappearance of a sense of humour on here and elsewhere)
If you did a head count on those who turned out in Cork you would find that the vast majority where women and children and I would wager that they where the same demographic that tuned into the Wedding so avidly. The photos and live TV from Cork definitely indicated that.

We will see it all again with Barack Obama, it is nothing more than celebrity awe (formerly known as Big House syndrome in these parts)

Will the media attempt to say that Obamas reception is because everyone in Ireland now supports US foreign policy :rolleyes:....no they won't.....why? ...because you can't say that.

The gloss is already wearing off the Visit and with today's bomb in Derry and other security alerts people must realise we still have the same problems.
SF's absent strategy was formulated to counter the above frenzy and may very well be what kept the lid on what could have been a non glossy celebrity, tinderbox.

lastlaugh

mike65 wrote: »

The reaction to HRH visit is symptomatic of SFs problems in the south, sure they had a decent General Election (and in the current economic malaise they had to gain more seats) but it was no more than decent. The tribal politics of NI don't translate to the 26 so going big against the visit with large scale demos would have damaged them down here, SF have political ambitions way above 10-12 seats and being the (arguably reluctant) hub of bottle-throwing skangers would quickly alienate them from the people they need to get votes from.

Gerry Adams etc would have been acutely aware of the need to avoid ending up on Six-One explaining why Sinn Fein were facilitating an anti-Monarchy riot as Gardai and property were assaulted.

No doubt the boys and girls at HQ will review their handling of this visit while making notes about how they can be seen to embrace the atmosphere down here. The problem for SF as ever though is the "northern pull", they want to be a successful 32 county party but where they merely have to plug into the "green" vote in NI to be successful, in the ROI they have to find an appeal with a wider demographic that often isn't that interested in crude nationalism and may indeed have welcomed the Queens visit. Can they please both at the same time with the same rhetoric or do they have to tailor their appeal for two different markets? Can they do that while remaining a fully cohesive party?

Spot on, couldn't agree more.

IMO Sinn Fein had no choice but to abstain fron the 'royal events'. All this talk of having a well thought out strategy is BS, they had no choice. I'd say they were desperate to ensure that their supporters didn't cause any trouble either, although I'd say some of them were frothing at the mouth in anticipation of a bit of trouble.

I wonder what's going to happen to SF when Adams & McGuinness get too old to carry on.
I mean, they are the ones with any credibility. They were there when there when there was a ligitimate (to a certain extent) reason for armed struggle.

Now that human rights are not an issue, who will lead the party? O'Snodig, Mary Lou? C'mon FFS.

Fuzzy Clam

Happyman42 wrote: »

We will see it all again with Barack Obama, it is nothing more than celebrity awe (formerly known as Big House syndrome in these parts)

Ah com'on, don't roll out this celeb **** again. It really does not exist in this country as much as some might believe. A comparison between the media here and in the UK will show this.

Happyman42

lastlaugh wrote: »

Spot on, couldn't agree more.

IMO Sinn Fein had no choice but to abstain fron the 'royal events'. All this talk of having a well thought out strategy is BS, they had no choice. I'd say they were desperate to ensure that their supporters didn't cause any trouble either, although I'd say some of them were frothing at the mouth in anticipation of a bit of trouble.

Ok, say they didn't have a strategy if that makes you happy, but somebody had to have planned it, they didn't turn up on the day, have a chat and decide not to disrupt, did they? They couldn't risk that with emotions running so high.
Given that, do you think they carried out their 'hastily thought out' plan well?

lastlaugh

Happyman42 wrote: »

Ok, say they didn't have a strategy if that makes you happy, but somebody had to have planned it, they didn't turn up on the day, have a chat and decide not to disrupt, did they? They couldn't risk that with emotions running so high.
Given that, do you think they carried out their 'hastily thought out' plan well?

I think you misunderstand me.

I'm sure they did have a meeting of some description and came to the realisation that a violent demonstration of any kind would result in their political isolation and loss of any credibility they hold in mainstream politics in the South.

You can call that a strategy if it makes you happy.
But I suppose they did carry out their plan well.

Who was the SF Lord Mayor who shook hands with the Queen?
I thought that was a step in the right direction.

Jelle1880

I read in the paper today (think it was the Sun though, or the Daily Star, so not exactly highly rated) that he only did it because he had to.

Happyman42

lastlaugh wrote: »

Who was the SF Lord Mayor who shook hands with the Queen?
I thought that was a step in the right direction.

SF issued an instruction to all party members not to accept invitations.
It will be interesting to see what happens...he was the only one who broke ranks with the 'absence' policy.
Probably a resignation in the offing, just like any other politician who disobeys the whip.

Carrickbhoy

Happyman42 wrote: »

SF issued an instruction to all party members not to accept invitations.
It will be interesting to see what happens...he was the only one who broke ranks with the 'absence' policy.
Probably a resignation in the offing, just like any other politician who disobeys the whip.

He is retiring next month anyway due to ill-health he has cancer

Durnish

OK, I stopped reading somewhere in page four, but can anyone confirm that the Shinners are holding a "cleansing ceremony" at the Garden of Remembrance today, to clear it of "residue of Br Imperialism"?
Was this a joke on the Irish Times' behalf?

Also, I was delighted to learn of the Pope's visit to Belfast last year, according to someone (IrishBob?) on page two of this thread. I am not surprised that Peter Robinson didn't shake the Pope's hand as, like me, he probably had not heard of the visit.

Irish Fire

Easy way to get back at the S.F. party for their insulting behaviour is not to vote for them in the next election, you will see the local council elections will have the same faces from the general election knocking on your doors, treat them the same way.........

Think it's time to close this thread now.

Happyman42

Durnish wrote: »

OK, I stopped reading somewhere in page four, but can anyone confirm that the Shinners are holding a "cleansing ceremony" at the Garden of Remembrance today, to clear it of "residue of Br Imperialism"?
Was this a joke on the Irish Times' behalf?

Do you have a link to that please?
Never heard anything about it tbh

Son Of A Vidic

Clareboy wrote: »

I have great respect for Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness, but I was dissapointed to see that Sinn Fein were not represented at any of the events to do with the visit of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II and HRH The Duke of Edinburgh to Ireland. Sinn Fein can sit down with Unionists in the North and do business with them and still they cannot meet Her Majesty and forget the past. What is their problem?

I somehow suspect they probably already regret that decision. Because they lost an opportunity for a true 'Mandela 'moment.

sceptre

Durnish wrote: »

OK, I stopped reading somewhere in page four, but can anyone confirm that the Shinners are holding a "cleansing ceremony" at the Garden of Remembrance today, to clear it of "residue of Br Imperialism"?
Was this a joke on the Irish Times' behalf?

It's being done by Republican Sinn Fein (Ruairí Ó Brádaigh's 1983-born splinter group, now headed by Des Dalton, with a total of one elected councillor) next weekend. As "the purpose of the ceremony is to cleanse the Garden of Remembrance of any residue of British Imperialism", I suspect they'll be bringing the holy water with them.

Happyman42

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

I somehow suspect they probably already regret that decision. Because they lost an opportunity for a true 'Mandela 'moment.

Have you anything other than your suspicions to back that up, because I can't see how anybody could arrive at that conclusion.