Lifetime licence?

Gerry.L

I just had a thought about the licensing process here in Ireland. I think it would be nice if you could get a lifetime license.

I have one or two guns there that I plan on having until the day I die. And Im sure Im not the only one in a similar situation.

Maybe do a deal, they could give you a lifetime license for (just for example) the cost of 40 years of regular licensing. That way the government get some nice lump sums here and there, and you save financially in the long run with the additional benefit (for you and the government) of no messing around every 3 years with filling in new application forms. Seems to me like a win-win situation.


What do ye lads think?

Traumadoc

Not sure the gunshops would be too happy.

leeroybrown

A 'lifetime license' kinda negates one of the main reasons for gun licensing - traceability. A system where someone can license a rifle or shotgun for 20+ years then just disappear is unlikely to be a positive development in the long run for gun owners.

Gerry.L

leeroybrown wrote: »

A 'lifetime license' kinda negates one of the main reasons for gun licensing - traceability. A system where someone can license a rifle or shotgun for 20+ years then just disappear is unlikely to be a positive development in the long run for gun owners.

Well someones not going to just dissapear. They are always going to be paying tax, bank account, social welfare or something. I dont think someone is just going to go off grid into the wilderness. And to be honest, if that was the plan. They could just pay for the current 3 year set up and then leave the very next day with a 3 year head start. But I really cant see that happening.

Daegerty

Gerry.L wrote: »

I dont think someone is just going to go off grid into the wilderness.

Doesn't seem like a bad idea tbh. and if someone did that a gun would be handy for hunting their own meat. If someone wanted to live the self sufficient life i don't think they should be prevented from doing so

i suppose you'll never be 100% self sufficient until after the zombie apocolypse but one can get fairly close and Ireland is a good country for it. 3 years is a bit annoying though with all the paper work involved. If they even extended it to 5 it would be a help

gunhappy_ie

We do have a lifetime licence..... it called a dealership :P

leeroybrown

Gerry.L wrote: »

Well someones not going to just disappear.

Not so much the person - the gun. If we had lifetime licensing there would be hundreds of cases of shotguns and rifles that are put away somewhere and just disappear. Not through any malice on the licensee - it'll just happen. A system where these guns are reasonably regularly accounted for is a requirement in my view. The answer is a more consistent and less bureaucratic licensing scheme not the removal of regular licensing.

gunhappy_ie

I have to sat that I wouldnt agree with a lifetime licence either. 3 years is the very max IMO that a firearm should be left before being checked that its still in the possession of the owner with correct serial number.

However I would also like to see Gardai getting more involved with there duties as FO and not ending up being "caught" to do the job on top of other work so they view it as an inconvienence.

Sparks

It's not a win from the point of view of the AGS or the DoJ or the MoJ.
Plus, 40-odd years of licencing would come to at least a thousand euro... at a time when people are complaining that they can't come up with three or four hundred for club memberships.
And what do you do if you get a licence for something that's later banned?

Daegerty

Sparks wrote: »

And what do you do if you get a licence for something that's later banned?

Jeez I hope they're not planning on banning any more things

Sparks

Me as well, but if you're talking lifetime licences, you have to allow for the possibility that it might happen during the 40-odd years...

Cass

I don't think anyone has touched on the subject of changing firearms.

If i change a gun for another and it falls under the guidelines for a substitution then its free. What if it does not. I have paid my 40+ year license fee, now i have to do it again fo another rifle.

The old system was as close to a lifetime license as you would get. The renewals would come out automatically every year without having to apply. It only changed when you changed firearms. This is what they changed for the reasons above (traceabilit, etc).

A lifetime license is unworkable, impractible, expensive, etc. There are other solutions such as the system in the North. One license with multiple firearms on a single license. A photo and barcode on the license with personal details such as address, serial number etc, not shown.

There are many alternatives however the lifetime oe i feel is not one of them. Nothing personal GerryL, its good people are still trying to find alternatives. Some could work others/most won't. Don't forget no matter what we feel would work its not up to us in the end. :rolleyes:

Glensman

To be fair the system in the North is alright.

I pay £50 for 5 years. It's the same if I have one gun or 6 guns. If I want to add or remove a gun I pay £26.

My photo and the serial numbers of all my rifles are on the licence along with my DoB and any conditions attached to the guns.

The one thing I think they should change is that say I want to change my 12g to another 12g, then I should just be able to do a one-on one-off and just pay the £26 to notify them of the change of serial number... As it is currently you have to fill in a load of paperwork and wait a lifetime for the permission to change...

Also, in England, once you are licenced on say a 12g, you can buy another 12g and just notify the authorities that you have added another gun.
After all, you have proven the need/competency for one 12g and you can only shoot one at once- so why not be allowed 2?

Traumadoc

Ezridax wrote: »

I don't think anyone has touched on the subject of changing firearms.

I did

Gerry.L

So it seems no one else is with me on this one. Fair enough. I still think its a good idea.

And leeroybrown, I think I got the wrong end of the stick with what you were getting at earlier. I think your right, it is a valid point that guns could go walkies.

I dont want to be beating a dead horse, so its the last I'll say on the matter. But perhaps give the lifetime license and then have random (or scheduled) checks. Where a garda (or FO) comes to your house and checks the gun and make sure everything is in order.

Also, genuine question here, at what point in our current setup will the gardai check to make sure I still have the gun? Whats stopping me from re-licensing my gun in 3 years time but maybe having lost it the year before?

Traumadoc

The Gardai often visit to check details and security arrangements.

Grizzly 45

Ezridax wrote: »

A lifetime license is unworkable, impractible, expensive, etc. There are other solutions such as the system in the North. One license with multiple firearms on a single license. A photo and barcode on the license with personal details such as address, serial number etc, not shown.

There are many alternatives however the lifetime oe i feel is not one of them. Nothing personal GerryL, its good people are still trying to find alternatives. Some could work others/most won't. Don't forget no matter what we feel would work its not up to us in the end. :rolleyes:

NEWSFLASH!!! Our Continental EU neighbours have lifetime liscenses for hunting and firearms possession and have had so since the 1910s and before!!!.You pass the saftey and hunting courses which are expensive enough to cover their operating costs you have the gun for life,bar you doing somthing daft with it. Or drinking and driving ,or of all things Tax dodging!!!:eek::eek:
You can walk into any gunstore and buy any type of gun within your permit range and walk straight out the door with it.IT IS UP TO YOU to register the gun with your local authorithy and get it on your permit book within ten days. If you dont they wont come looking for you,but if the regular sales book checks with the local gun dealer doesnt tally with your firearms list.Guess who will be visited and looses everything??? Yup YOU!!
Selling a gun...No problem..Sell it to whomever,be they dealer or private individual...You get their details and money,inform the local firearms branch in person,or by sending in the liscense book by snail mail
that you have sold gun number 1234 to joe bloggs ,anytown.They type thru those details on your permit.Put a date offical stamp on it.Job done!Not your problem anymore.Problem is Mr Bloggs's to register the gun with his firearms dept.

Still as traceable as anything,and has worked for nigh on a century.
Yes guns do get nicked occasionaly.But by and large there is enough illegal stuff to satisfy the criminal market,without running the risk of lead poisioning during a spot of B&E.But guns dont "disapper",they are 99.99% accountable for by either the owner or firearms dept.

No alarms,no home inspections,etc.Simply purchase a safe appropriate to the amount of guns you have.Or just build a brick strongroom in your house with a proper inspected and certified strongroom door.

Want to modernise it,all this can be put on a encoded smart card.
Now
WHY wont it work here?
1] It is not dealt with by the police forces.It is dealt with by a civillian dept of your local council.
2]They are not trying to make money out of the gunowner.It is a public service,as much as bin collection or water supply.Ergo,your taxes have paid for it.
3]You dont disapper by moving on the continent.IE the midnite flit.
You have to get clearence from your local council to move to another district,as they must transfer your files to the new council,thats your tax bills ,rates payments etc,your kids school records,car details etc.So it isnt likely that you can do like us,just push off one day and its all behind you.Cos without the council clearence,you wont get power,water,sanitation,your car taxed or a bank account opened,or your kids into the local school.
IOW,a much more organised,disiplined society than we can or would ever be.
4]The police are armed and not worried that ,like here they would be outgunned by somone losing it.As a matter of fact they are relatively indifferent to the amount of firearms owned by civvies,as they know they are not a threat.They have also stated in certain cases that certain laws would not be in the police or civillian gunownership benefits.

So unless Irish society will change,we will be stuck with this beuracratic top heavy,cumbersome liscensing system for the near future.:rolleyes:
Not to mind an irrational fear of sucessive Govts and beauracrats that we are all somhow subversives intent on overthrowing the Irish state at any given moment.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Cass

My comments are based on the situation in IRELAND. Not the continental EU, USA or any other country.

Secondly you say you can get a gun then if you don't register it the cops come looking for you. In Ireland we do the same only backwards. We get authoriation before getting the gun. Means no chasing up needed by An Gardai. So in effect it takes as much man power to do "retrospective" licensing as opposed to pre checked licensing.

Few questions.

1. What countries?
2. What are the fees for the licenses?
3. Are there costs if you change the firearms on your licenses?
4. If so what/how much are they?
5. Are you saying once you license the firearm it is never checked upon again?
6. Would you have any issue selling a firearm to someone that has not been vetted by An Gardai (or any police force)?
7. Considering the amount of firearm holders that were late, very late and still have not applied for their licenses what do you think are the chances of people voluntarily licensing their firearms on time?

marlin vs

I wish I could be guaranteed another 40 year's.

ormondprop

i dont mind re licensing every 3 years, i just wish it was easier and quicker to change guns and that every station followed the same guidelines on licensing, substituting and granting use moderators
i've been waiting over 5 weeks for my substitution for a 223 from a 22 hornet, while kieran1141 got his monday for a 308 from a 223 from the same station and i applied before him
i phoned them 3 times in the last 2 weeks and called into them and every time they took my details and said they'd ring me back later in the day letting me know what the story is and still haven't recieved a call off them in 2 weeks:mad:
really pissing me off, i know of lads who have changed guns in a few days and a few lads who had to wait months, i myself had to wait for about 6 months for my first license for my hornet a few years ago, how can it take so long for some, do they just stack up all the applications until the have no room left on their desk for their doughnuts and cups of coffee before they deal with them

Mr.Flibble

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

NEWSFLASH!!! Our Continental EU neighbours have lifetime liscenses for hunting and firearms possession and have had so since the 1910s and before!!!.You pass the saftey and hunting courses which are expensive enough to cover their operating costs you have the gun for life,bar you doing somthing daft with it. Or drinking and driving ,or of all things Tax dodging!!!:eek::eek:
You can walk into any gunstore and buy any type of gun within your permit range and walk straight out the door with it.IT IS UP TO YOU to register the gun with your local authorithy and get it on your permit book within ten days. If you dont they wont come looking for you,but if the regular sales book checks with the local gun dealer doesnt tally with your firearms list.Guess who will be visited and looses everything??? Yup YOU!!
Selling a gun...No problem..Sell it to whomever,be they dealer or private individual...You get their details and money,inform the local firearms branch in person,or by sending in the liscense book by snail mail
that you have sold gun number 1234 to joe bloggs ,anytown.They type thru those details on your permit.Put a date offical stamp on it.Job done!Not your problem anymore.Problem is Mr Bloggs's to register the gun with his firearms dept.

Still as traceable as anything,and has worked for nigh on a century.
Yes guns do get nicked occasionaly.But by and large there is enough illegal stuff to satisfy the criminal market,without running the risk of lead poisioning during a spot of B&E.But guns dont "disapper",they are 99.99% accountable for by either the owner or firearms dept.

No alarms,no home inspections,etc.Simply purchase a safe appropriate to the amount of guns you have.Or just build a brick strongroom in your house with a proper inspected and certified strongroom door.

Want to modernise it,all this can be put on a encoded smart card.

I'm shocked. They probably allow reloading as well.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Our Continental EU neighbours have lifetime liscenses for hunting and firearms possession and have had so since the 1910s and before!

...

WHY wont it work here?
1...
2...
3...
4...

and (5) We've made an art form of pulling strokes, pushing the edges of the laws, sometimes ignoring them completely and by now both the law-makers and the law-breakers have gotten to the point where each acts perversely using the behaviour of the other side as a justification. The european people you're talking about Grizzly, by and large, don't do that, don't even think that way, and do not consider breaking the law a game, a pastime, "roguish" or some sort of badge of honour.

ormondprop

Sparks wrote: »

and (5) We've made an art form of pulling strokes, pushing the edges of the laws, sometimes ignoring them completely and by now both the law-makers and the law-breakers have gotten to the point where each acts perversely using the behaviour of the other side as a justification. The european people you're talking about Grizzly, by and large, don't do that, don't even think that way, and do not consider breaking the law a game, a pastime, "roguish" or some sort of badge of honour.

i thought they are the same thing

Sparks

ormondprop wrote: »

i thought they are the same thing

In quite a few cases, it would seem.

Grizzly 45

Ezridax wrote: »

My comments are based on the situation in IRELAND. Not the continental EU, USA or any other country.

Well, maybe then we should stop taking our own insular attitudes and views as the be all and end all .We ARE in the EU you know!Maybe we could get some benefit from it too .

Secondly you say you can get a gun then if you don't register it the cops come looking for you. In Ireland we do the same only backwards. We get authoriation before getting the gun. Means no chasing up needed by An Gardai. So in effect it takes as much man power to do "retrospective" licensing as opposed to pre checked licensing.

I DO know how it works here....:D.Its actually a council offical who will be on your case,and they have alot of legal power and authorithy.

However over there you do not need any police checks!! Simply because the police are NOT involved in the liscensing procedure at all!! You go away do whatever is required in the tests required by the law,pass or fail them,resit,or not. Get qualified by the revelant body,get your liscense to hunt or target shoot.Have a nice life..Go buy your guns,go shooting! Simples!! There is an assumption over there that you are a responsible adult citizen,not inclined to usurp the States power[as if you could] so therefore you have proven your worth by being tested to do a relatively dangerous activity without let or harm to your fellow citizens,as you know that you can,and will be prosecuted to the letter of the law if you do.
So be it on your head if you want to have an unliscensed firearm in the place.
Thats a straight off ,no parole no arguement,no plea bargining five year stretch.

Also there are good political and historical reasons for not involvig the police in the liscensing procedure which I wont go into,but Jews and 3rd Reich should say alot.



Want to do it the criminal way...There are more illegal firearms in Germany than there are legal ones.[Bundes Kriminal Amt{German version of the US FBI} stats of mid 1990s] Dont get caught mind,as you will never have a chance of owning a gun again over there .


Few questions.

What countries

?

Germany,ASFIK Benelux and Sweden and Norway as well,As I most fammilar with the German system I will use that as the example.

What are the fees for the licenses?

A sixweek intensive course in hunting liscense which entitles you to as many long arms as you want,and only two handguns.Will set you back the bones of 2500 plus euros.You will be taught all aspects of hunting from botany to music,via firearms law,biology,firearms handling.Including practical experiance from tree stand building to game butchering.
Then a oral and prctical test in all of the above with a pass rate of 80%.Then a shooting test with rifle and shotgun pass rate to qualify 80% or higher. Flunk it and you can resit it at appx 250 euros per module.
Or you can take your time and do the whole lot over a three/five year period as an apprentice hunter in somones game reserve.If you can find somone that is that will take you on.
After all that the issuance of your liscense costs you appx 100 euros and you have it till the day you die!

BUT that is the cheapest part of being a hunter over there!It is a lifestyle choice,not a hobby.You then need to find a reserve that you can afford,[appx 20k plus PA] or that the local farmers coop will let you join...Or join a consortium that will accept you,and start pulling your weight seriously in the place in the off season.So the community gets its money out of you twentyfold PA what an Irish hunter puts into their beat.

Imagine how many deer hunters we would have here if you had to pay for damage to a new forest of saplings.Or a herd of wild pigs ate somones potato patch overnight???You as a hunter own the game,so you are responsible for it..

If you want to be a target shooter..Go to a recognised club of your disipline of choice,join up and be a probie for 6/12 months.Be trained in the disipline and then sit your theory [written and oral] and practical test.Get qualified in that,go get your sport shooter liscense,and buy whatever firearms you want for your disipline.Usually thats 10/15 long guns for the particular disipline and 5[?] handguns per disipline.
Want to take up another disipline,join that particular club jump the probie stage,as they recognise you know how to be safe with firearms,do the exams ,buy whatever guns you want for the new disipline.
Costs are all in the exams and training,the firearms dept in the council offices cost about 100 euros to issue.

Too much hassle?Take up airgun and airpistol shooting..They are not classified as firearms,[logically].Every village,town and even some secondary schools have an air rifle range.
Up to 1974,even 22lr rifles and pistols could be bought over the counter like air guns.That went courtsey of the Baader Meinhoff fukactin around.:mad:

Are there costs if you change the firearms on your licenses

?

Nope,nothing.It is a public service paid for by your rates and taxes.

Are you saying once you license the firearm it is never checked upon again?

Bar that you are doing somthing daft with it,or it was used in a criminal offence,and in that case you will lose them all and be prosecuted for the offence.Get a DUI conviction,your guns are gone as long as the conviction lasts.Ditto your pilots liscense, small boat liscense too if you have them.

Possibly at a traffic checkpoint,in which they would be looking for somone specific or which are only set up for things like escaped criminals from a bank robbery,riots in the cities,massive accidents,etc.Not for checking tax and insurance or such.[Which is done by simply looking at your rear liscense plate .There is a little colour coded disc on the plate for your tax,not a big hunk of paper on the windscreen.;)]

And if you mean random inspections like we have here.NO!
There was/is an attempt to do this but it is clashing with the constitutional right of the scanticty of the home,which is involate without good reason and a search warrent.
So IOW a police officer cant just pitch up at your door and demand to inspect your guns or safe at any old time of the day.The police must have "Good reason" to inspect your firearms,and can only inspect them under warrent for criminal investigation.
Nor is it really their patch,as the liscensing is handled by a civillian authorithy,so a civvie with a badge and a lot of power will more than likely show up.IF this goes ahead.
As for the safes and are they correct.you simply send them nowadays an email or snailmail with a pic of the safe and its serial number to the firearms liscensing dept.No need for officaldom to go tramping around the countryside inspecting safes.

Would you have any issue selling a firearm to someone that has not been vetted by An Gardai (or any police force)?

Let me answer this another way..Are you concerned if somone buys a car or tractor unit of an articulated rig off you are they liscensed,or actually know to drive it and have a clean insurance record???
Do we ask them for that information and a garda clearence before we sell it to them??
It is a question of the law of the land..If that is legal to do so in Germany or wherever...And that is the law..why should I or anyone else worry about what that person is or is not??You sold it to them under the law of that countries firearms acts.So to answer it in a roundabout way.if it was Herr Maier,Mouiseur Pierre,Senor Luigi,etc.Not really concerned...If it is Pat Murphy..very concerned,unfortunatly.:(

Considering the amount of firearm holders that were late, very late and still have not applied for their licenses what do you think are the chances of people voluntarily licensing their firearms on time?

Generalisation..We cant say everyone was late because they werent arsed to do it right away.It was a shambles and there have been screwups aplenty in paperwork, procedure and form filling,not to mind some bloddymindness on both parties parts..And in the German case the onus is on you the holder to register it within ten working days,and you only do this once..ever!!
Be a different story if say a CAB agent[just to give you a possible equivlent in power of the agencies of the council] showed up at your door and started asking about the
unliscensed gun.

Bottom line is ..You are right!!! It wont work here.As we Irish as a race are too untrustworthy,beligerent,rebellious against authorithy,and just downright incompetant to attempt anything like this that normal Western European countries have been doing sucessfully for over 100 years in various different guises or formats.We dont have the mindset or disipline or trust in our personal or public servants lives or unbiasedness to do this.
We are just too unruly to be trusting ourselves or those in authorithy.Or authorithy to trust us to do the right thing.

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

and (5) We've made an art form of pulling strokes, pushing the edges of the laws, sometimes ignoring them completely and by now both the law-makers and the law-breakers have gotten to the point where each acts perversely using the behaviour of the other side as a justification. The european people you're talking about Grizzly, by and large, don't do that, don't even think that way, and do not consider breaking the law a game, a pastime, "roguish" or some sort of badge of honour.

Dammit!! wish I had read that before my last post,and saved meself a load of typing!!:D;)

Glensman

ormondprop wrote: »

i dont mind re licensing every 3 years, i just wish it was easier and quicker to change guns and that every station followed the same guidelines on licensing, substituting and granting use moderators
i've been waiting over 5 weeks for my substitution for a 223 from a 22 hornet, while kieran1141 got his monday for a 308 from a 223 from the same station and i applied before him
i phoned them 3 times in the last 2 weeks and called into them and every time they took my details and said they'd ring me back later in the day letting me know what the story is and still haven't recieved a call off them in 2 weeks:mad:
really pissing me off, i know of lads who have changed guns in a few days and a few lads who had to wait months, i myself had to wait for about 6 months for my first license for my hornet a few years ago, how can it take so long for some, do they just stack up all the applications until the have no room left on their desk for their doughnuts and cups of coffee before they deal with them

Now that sounds EXACTLY like we have up here :mad:

Daegerty

20k a year? thats far too much. no casual hunters and target shooters over there then?

Longranger

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

[

A sixweek intensive course in hunting liscense which entitles you to as many long arms as you want,and only two handguns.Will set you back the bones of 2500 plus euros.You will be taught all aspects of hunting from botany to music,via firearms law,biology,firearms handling.Including practical experiance from tree stand building to game butchering.
Then a oral and prctical test in all of the above with a pass rate of 80%.Then a shooting test with rifle and shotgun pass rate to qualify 80% or higher. Flunk it and you can resit it at appx 250 euros per module.
Or you can take your time and do the whole lot over a three/five year period as an apprentice hunter in somones game reserve.If you can find somone that is that will take you on.
After all that the issuance of your liscense costs you appx 100 euros and you have it till the day you die!

BUT that is the cheapest part of being a hunter over there!It is a lifestyle choice,not a hobby.You then need to find a reserve that you can afford,[appx 20k plus PA] or that the local farmers coop will let you join...Or join a consortium that will accept you,and start pulling your weight seriously in the place in the off season.So the community gets its money out of you twentyfold PA what an Irish hunter puts into their beat.

A lifestyle choice!:eek::eek: I can't afford to pay 600 euro to join a range in this country! Never mind 20 feckin' grand:mad: Things may not be great the way they are but at least I can afford to go out and do a bit of game shooting and some vermin control here and there.:cool: If that's the way forward (and the cost)for lifetime licences you can keep them!!;)

Grizzly 45

@Dagerty
No thats for the costs of running your game reserve/shoot.You lease the reserve off a local coop of farmers whose land and forest you will be hunting on for ten years.
They own the land and forest but unlike here, do not automatically own the shooting rights.Thats two totally different things .So you as a hunter are responsible for crop damage,by game to the farmer,and thats about a quater of your above sum in payments PA in crop damage.Then you have the standard costs of insurance,vechicle up keep,feed and fodder in the winter months for deer and boar and birds.And all the usual stuff of buildin materials etc to build and repair feed pens,tree stands etc.Take the 20K as flexiable depending on the size of the reserve.Thats on average what it costs us on ours PA. However if you have a consortium,obviously the work and costs go down per hunter.BUT you have to pull your weight..As you wont be in the consortium long if you as just riding on everyones slack,and want to just shoot and not put in the work of keeping the place in order for 8 months of the year.We had to ditch three of them over the years including one relative..:eek:
So a "casual hunter" as we know it in IRL/UK does not exist in Germany.It is a lifestyle choice of appx 6/8 months work,and 4 months enjoyment.

Target shooters are different.Once you are in the Verein or club ,you are in.But you will be expected to show up at least once a month or more,which you undoubtly will to go shooting in matches etc,as you have been a probie there for 6/12 months already.Costs arent as much as hunting though,and it is abit more relaxed in time and dedication.But it still requires work on your part to do so.
So a fellow jut pitching up once a month to shoot is going to be looked at as abit odd too,and might find himself having a chat about is "everything all right??"So again a "casual target shooter" of the kind we know over here doesnt really exist either.Sure,there might be folks who attend more than others,but a bloke who pitches up once every six months and expects to shoot in comps is unheard of.

Grizzly 45

Longranger wrote: »

A lifestyle choice!:eek::eek: I can't afford to pay 600 euro to join a range in this country! Never mind 20 feckin' grand:mad: Things may not be great the way they are but at least I can afford to go out and do a bit of game shooting and some vermin control here and there.:cool: If that's the way forward (and the cost)for lifetime licences you can keep them!!;)

Thats why German hunters are in comparision to the pouplation a very small minority.Even smaller than irish hunters.;)
But get this straight! It is NOT 20K per annum per person!!!It can be if you want it to be and are wealthy enough to have your own private shoot.Some people can and do so.Other mere mortals set up consortiums and bring down the costs for themselves.
As you might have an account,a farmer,a mechanic,a sawmill operator in the consortium.They bring their skills to the table and thereby drop the overall costs of running the shoot.eg the farmer provides the tractor and machinery to set up a wild forest lawn for deer to browse on,sawmill operator provides free lumber to build the facilities etc.

Nor do they have the still Ripoff Ireland prices on everything we have here.The Germans would have rioted along time ago and sacked Berlin if the average household had to pay the prices we do here for foodstuffs.:mad:

Also this only applies if you are hunter,not a target shooter..Nor does it mean you have to hunt only in Germany..Many qualified hunters simply hop in their cars and drive east to hunt in Poland,or Hungary.Where you can pay to hunt and be assured of somthing to be shot without 99% of the hassle back in Germany.

So this has absolutely nothing to do with the liscensing system!!!!
You have a myriad of options to ligitimatly own guns over there that would make our and our Govts head spin.:D

Cass

You can put this under the title of "i'm used to what we have" or " i dislike that much change", but wither way i see "faults" or problems with systems like that being enacted here.

The cost for a start. With lads complaining over €80 license fees, club and range fees of a couple of hundred euro how can you honestly expect anyone to just pay the €2,500 let alone the following costs for re-sitting, land, etc, etc.

You say the council do the licensing and they have alot of powers and authority. So do An Gardai here, but you cannot have a gun until they have cleared you. To give people here the gun then have them register it within 10 days will not work for all the reasons yourself and Sparks mentioned so on that basis ALONE the argument is moot. To change the system entirely you need to change the mindset of the people involved.

Your points on target shooting would worry me. If you are a plinker and an irregular wisitor to a range then you are spoken to? So its either serious competitor or nothing at all? I know you did not say those words, but thats what is coming across. This would exclude those in financial difficulties, the elderly that cannot compete as often or at all, etc. Thats a piss poor system and if someone wants to come to the range once a month or longer, fire a few rounds then not return for a while they shpuld be able to do so without needing "a doctor's note" to explain their poor attendance.

Your anaolgy of the vehicle licensing as opposed to firearms licensing is somewhat flawed. A car, truck, etc is not easily concealed by those that would seek to do harm. You cannot legislate for a madman, but you can do what is possile to limit their ability to do harm.

Fact is certain countries have systems that would seem to suit. However to impliment an exact copy or to "bastardise" our system here by taking extracts from others countries simply will not work. not least from a practical position, but from a people point of view. So as said earlier until the license holders/people involved change and those issuing the licenses/responsible for the system begin to trust the people there will be no change.

Grizzly 45

]You can put this under the title of "i'm used to what we have" or " i dislike that much change", but wither way i see "faults" or problems with systems like that being enacted here.

Or possibly.."Hey there might be somthing we could adapt and use over here too in an Irish situation" thread

The cost for a start. With lads complaining over €80 license fees, club and range fees of a couple of hundred euro how can you honestly expect anyone to just pay the €2,500 let alone the following costs for re-sitting, land, etc, etc.

SIGH!!! READ the posts again will ya??? Ive explained this already THREE TIMES about the costs and WHY it is so high!!!How much does a shoot cost to run here too BTW.Love to see some comparision figures.When all time and labour ,etc is pulled in.

I will also add that you are a hunter are entitled to sell your game directly to a resturant or butcher,so you can reclaim some money at market price.None of this middleman game dealer nonsense.Also a certain amount of your costs are tax deductible as it is considerd by the Federal Govts as conservation work...Be along time waiting for those two simple things to happen here as well.:rolleyes:

You say the council do the licensing and they have alot of powers and authority. So do An Gardai here, but you cannot have a gun until they have cleared you.

Do I HAVE to explain this again?? The benefit is in the fact that the police are NOT involved as it [1] Saves valuable police time and manpower,there are historical and political reasons for not involving them in the process and [3] The revelant bodies involved in the liscensing systems are competant enough and entitled to check up on people and approve them for firearms possession. AND you cant have a gun either until you are duly liscensed over there either..you can certainly TRY and buy one without a liscense,but you wont get far,as the dealer will need to see the Firearms cert book,or at least have your liscense number.Dont have either,no gun leaves the shop.If you have , pay your money , off you go,and get it in the book within ten days.No NEED for a constant police check for each individual application on your liscense.The liscense alone shows that you are cleared and trustworthy to own the firearm.The onous is on you ,just as much as it is over here to do the paperwork.Just that it is 100% more quicker and efficent over there than here!

To give people here the gun then have them register it within 10 days will not work for all the reasons yourself and Sparks mentioned so on that basis ALONE the argument is moot. To change the system entirely you need to change the mindset of the people involved.

See above points..

Your points on target shooting would worry me. If you are a plinker and an irregular wisitor to a range then you are spoken to?

Doesnt exist a "irregular shooter" in a club.If there is mandatory attendance per month or year and you show up on those designated amounts,no problem.If you show up more no bother and welcome.
Just so long as you abide by the attendance rules,everyone is happy.
BTW you can happily plink on your own private property.So long as it is safe to do so and the bulletts canot leave your property,and you are not bothering anyone else like the neighbours with noise or other disturbance.
So if you want to convert your house cellar to a mini shooting range to fire your air pistol or 470 elephant rifle..Go right ahead.

So its either serious competitor or nothing at all? I know you did not say those words, but thats what is coming across

Not really, you will be a member of the club attending whatever is a mandatory attendance be it once a month or whatever.But that does not mean you will be shooting every match or activly engaging in interclub matches,unless you really want to.
This is the whole idea of the probation time as well,to get to see what kind of a person you are..Wether you want to be a total competition nut or just want to come in and punch a few holes in paper and go home.

. This would exclude those in financial difficulties, the elderly that cannot compete as often or at all, etc. Thats a piss poor system and if someone wants to come to the range once a month or longer, fire a few rounds then not return for a while they shpuld be able to do so without needing "a doctor's note" to explain their poor attendance

Thats your take on it and it is totally WRONG!!!
The "piss poor system" as you describe it!:mad::mad::mad: Has been working since the late 19th centurty very well thank you very much.
As for the old age.They unlike the Irish clubs offer OAP rates and actually by and large the big problem in Germany is the age of hunters and target shooters ..It is over 50 and dwindling.But they are the people with the money in the banks....
Any clubs do that here,an OAP rate????

Financial problems..Go talk to the comittee and they will generally sort somthing out.By and large Germans do budget better than us .So they know what they can and cant afford to buy or do.......oooppsss...sorryy!:o:o.They would more than likely give up a particular hobby or whatever than still try "to stand their round" so to speak.Nor do clubs charge such rippoff prices as here as they dont have the huge overheads that we do.
Insurance companies consider shooting clubs over there less risk than soccer clubs or riding stables.

Your anaolgy of the vehicle licensing as opposed to firearms licensing is somewhat flawed. A car, truck, etc is not easily concealed by those that would seek to do harm. You cannot legislate for a madman, but you can do what is possile to limit their ability to do harm.

BUT the point is a car or truck is 100%more deadlier than a firearm,kills more people and is 100% easier to buy than a gun,
and the concealability issue is a strawman arguement.True you cant legislate for nutters,but what are nutters killing them and us with here more motor vechicles or firearms ???

Fact is certain countries have systems that would seem to suit. However to impliment an exact copy or to "bastardise" our system here by taking extracts from others countries simply will not work.

Uh huh! So we havent got in our current legislation... Approved range designs from Canada?The post of Range inspector from Canadian law either? The three year liscense,[orginally five years] from the UK legislation?

Half the HCAP manual ,while not mandatory..yet..
But as I predicted is being pushed now for ALL deer hunters,with a fee for the deer liscense of 100 euros PA.[May ISD report on the WDS and IDS meeting] Is cogged off the GERMAN hunting test??

not least from a practical position, but from a people point of view. So as said earlier until the license holders/people involved change and those issuing the licenses/responsible for the system begin to trust the people there will be no change.

100% agree,BUT the time is coming that WE the Irish people are going to have to look at ourselves or be forced to do so,as what are our attitudes are as a nation to ourselves and to other nations.
it might be an idea to be abit more open to some new ideas,while not having to slavlishly adapt them 100% ,have an open mind about them?

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

SIGH!!! READ the posts again will ya??? Ive explained this already THREE TIMES about the costs and WHY it is so high!!!How much does a shoot cost to run here too BTW.Love to see some comparision figures.When all time and labour ,etc is pulled in.

Loosing patience with me and still not explaining or answering what i have asked is not an answer.

I don't care about the prices in numbers (for the moment), only that it is so much higher. So i'll ask again.

Do you think people that complain about paying €120(ish) for HCAP, €80 for a 3 year license, and €X for club/range fees will pay €2,500+ for more courses, fees, etc. ?

Do I HAVE to explain this again??

Apparently.

The benefit is in the fact that the police are NOT involved as it [1] Saves valuable police time and manpower,

Fair point in a country with over 60 odd million people.

[2]there are historical and political reasons for not involving them in the process

You can explain this point again?

and [3] The revelant bodies involved in the liscensing systems are competant enough and entitled to check up on people and approve them for firearms possession

They might be slow, but so are the relevant authorities here.

. AND you cant have a gun either until you are duly liscensed over there either..you can certainly TRY and buy one without a liscense,but you wont get far,as the dealer will need to see the Firearms cert book,or at least have your liscense number.Dont have either,no gun leaves the shop.If you have , pay your money , off you go,and get it in the book within ten days.No NEED for a constant police check for each individual application on your liscense

So what you are saying is it is very much like the system in the North where the person is licensed. One license - multiple firearms. So how do you get a license? I mean the firearms/permit book. If you don't have to register the gun for 10 days how do you get the book in the first place? Say you don't hunt. Must it be a range? how much is the firearms license? For how long?

The liscense alone shows that you are cleared and trustworthy to own the firearm.The onous is on you ,just as much as it is over here to do the paperwork.Just that it is 100% more quicker and efficent over there than here!

The major difference being the person must complete their paperwork while they already have possession of the firearm. So i could have a rifle, and then register it within 10 days. I'm not a politican, but i tell you that will never fly here.

Doesnt exist a "irregular shooter" in a club.If there is mandatory attendance per month or year and you show up on those designated amounts,no problem.If you show up more no bother and welcome.
Just so long as you abide by the attendance rules,everyone is happy.

Once again you haven't answered my question, but instead choose to concentrate on the "reasons" i gave why someone would/could not attend as often as they would like or should. What happens these people? If you do not hit the designated number of attendances per year you're out?

Thats your take on it and it is totally WRONG!!!
The "piss poor system" as you describe it!:mad::mad::mad: Has been working since the late 19th centurty very well thank you very much.

In your opinon, not mine.

Any clubs do that here,an OAP rate????

The MNSCI that i know off. I think i remember reading on the NASRPC website that they offer reduced rates for OAP. Not sure if thats the fees for membership or comps. I'm sure there are more.

BUT the point is a car or truck is 100%more deadlier than a firearm

No its not. As we have argued here for ages the object is not the issue its the person weilding the object. Plus as i've already said it a silly comparisons. 170,000 licensed firearm holders on controled ranges/club grounds/hunting grounds. 2.5 million+ motorists on the roads every day.

./................ but what are nutters killing them and us with here more motor vechicles or firearms ???

You've just made my point for me. Perhaps stricter licensing of cars should be enacted. If people had to jump through the hoops we do for a firearm to get a car maybe they wouldn't take it for granted.

Uh huh! So we havent got in our current legislation... Approved range designs from Canada?The post of Range inspector from Canadian law either? The three year liscense,[orginally five years] from the UK legislation?

Its obvious you do not know what i mean so i'll explain it to you. I was refering to taking the "choice" pieces of legislation from numerous different countries then trying to mangle them together and expect them to work. The current legislation and its origins are half the problem. We need an Irish solution to an Irish problem. Not taking more laws and trying to make them work for us.

it might be an idea to be abit more open to some new ideas,while not having to slavlishly adapt them 100% ,have an open mind about them?

I, contrary to the tone of my responses, would love to see a better, more fluid system in the hands of a body that would work it to the letter of the law and not be influenced by political winds or personal agendas.

In your words "NEWSFLASH". Its Ireland. Gang killings with illegal guns - Government response = limit, and ban handguns. Impose stricter laws. Create a contradictional system with different levels of equality/application from district to district.

I, and every other shooter out there, can see the problems and could possibly give 100 better solutions. Problem is we will not be listened to or even consulted with. And at the end of the day we have no say in how future legislation will be written. With a stroke of his pen the new minister can undo certain limitations or make matters worse.

So even changing the minds of the average shooter and having us all running smoothly means nothing if those that write the laws are not of the same mindset. They never have been, continue not to be, and will most likely never be persuaded to change.

I hope to be corrected on this, but probably not in my time.

Grizzly 45

Ezridax wrote: »

Loosing patience with me and still not explaining or answering what i have asked is not an answer.

Could you do me the courtsey of then asking exactly what you are looking for in an answer??I'm doing the best with what I have and it seems to me you are asking the same questions again and again!
I've stated twice that you have a hunting liscense in Germany for life...Yet you ask the same question again here in this post.

Ok again cutting and pasting this,as IVe just lost 2hours worth of keyboard work replying to this thread,by a brown ou and its 3am:(

Do you think people that complain about paying €120(ish) for HCAP, €80 for a 3 year license, and €X for club/range fees will pay €2,500+ for more courses, fees, etc. ?

They mightnt have much choice in the future the way the EU encroaches more into our lives.I hate to say it but that will proably be cheap in Ireland knowing the way we like to screw each other for as much as possible.I refer to the IDS meeting where they are suggesting that the deer liscense should be 100 euros PA and the mandatory HCAP test for all stalkers...
How long before THAT is screwed up to those kind of prices here???
Also the 2,500 is a relative price that has A ONCE off price to go to a cramming school for six weeks to do the hunting course to get a lifetime liscense.

Fair point in a country with over 60 odd million people

.
And it wouldnt be benefical in a country of 4.5 million with an overstretched,undermanned on the street,miniscule civillian staff ,facing cuts police force???

You can explain this point again

?
Without boring everyone to death on German historical firearms laws??

They might be slow, but so are the relevant authorities here.

To the point of Tectonic plate shifting!No one in Europe would put up with the slowness of the Irish civil servant..well,maybe the Italians..they make us look hyper efficent.:D

So what you are saying is it is very much like the system in the North where the person is licensed. One license - multiple firearms

Got it in one!:D

.

So how do you get a license? I mean the firearms/permit book. If you don't have to register the gun for 10 days how do you get the book in the first place

Issued to you by the council,on production of satisfactory paperwork showing you passed the State exam on hunting or completion and recommendation the exams revelant to your target shooting disipline.

? Say you don't hunt. Must it be a range? how much is the firearms license?AFIK now it costs 150 euros to issue,can be possibly different in various States.
Dont hunt?You are a sport shooter with a huge amount of disiplines to be involved in if you have the time and money.Or you are a blackpowder shooter,or a wild west cowboy shooter,or a gun collector,or a biathalon competitor,or are into airgun target shooting[no hunting with airguns over there.]
Must it be a range
,BTW you can happily plink on your own private property.So long as it is safe to do so and the bulletts canot leave your property,and you are not bothering anyone else like the neighbours with noise or other disturbance.
So if you want to convert your house cellar to a mini shooting range to fire your air pistol or 470 elephant rifle..Go right ahead.
however that is betimes difficult in German cities and the countryside where folks live in either rented apartments or small surburban houses.So most just go to the nearest convient range appropriate to their disipline

For how long?

Bar you doing somthing criminal or being comitted to a nut house.You have it for life!!Until the day you are boxed,blessed and buried !!!Same as your driving liscense too.

The major difference being the person must complete their paperwork while they already have possession of the firearm. So i could have a rifle, and then register it within 10 days. I'm not a politican, but i tell you that will never fly here.

Of course it wont.We are too untrustworthy.:rolleyes:

Once again you haven't answered my question, but instead choose to concentrate on the "reasons" i gave why someone would/could not attend as often as they would like or should. What happens these people? If you do not hit the designated number of attendances per year you're out?

Then ask a clearer more understandable question!:)
Nothing happens to them ..There is an asssumption of innocence until proven otherwise..You are not suspected of going off to get a "trophy liscense" ,as you have already done the probation and are liscensed anyway for life to posses whatever guns for your disipline.[That might be changing]So unless there is some good reason that you must attend the club[IE house rules,not govt rules] and your membership is paid..Grand.

Being abit more cautious nowadays after three school massacres:rolleyes:,it is possible that IF your attendance was extremly erratic somone might sit you down with a beer and have a chat to ask is everything OK.Thats the whole idea of the probation time to get a handle on your chacter.If you were outgoing and are suddenly taciturn or never shot more than 10 shots an hour and are putting 60 downrange per five minutes,maybe,just maybe somone might be abit concerned??

In your opinon, not mine

.
And like a certain smelly part of our anatomy we all have one!;)

The MNSCI that i know off. I think i remember reading on the NASRPC website that they offer reduced rates for OAP. Not sure if thats the fees for membership or comps. I'm sure there are more.

shouldnt even have to ask that question..It should be SOP on any club.:(

No its not. As we have argued here for ages the object is not the issue its the person weilding the object. Plus as i've already said it a silly comparisons. 170,000 licensed firearm holders on controled ranges/club grounds/hunting grounds. 2.5 million+ motorists on the roads every day.

Not disagreeing with the nut behind the wheel bit.Point is the cavalier attitude given to motor vechicles and their dangers,and their ease of purchase of a 100% more leathl potential weapon than a gun.

. Perhaps stricter licensing of cars should be enacted. If people had to jump through the hoops we do for a firearm to get a car maybe they wouldn't take it for granted.

Couldnt agree more with you.

Its obvious you do not know what i mean so i'll explain it to you. I was refering to taking the "choice" pieces of legislation from numerous different countries then trying to mangle them together and expect them to work. The current legislation and its origins are half the problem. We need an Irish solution to an Irish problem. Not taking more laws and trying to make them work for us.

Sorry..That IS an Irish solution to an Irish problem.We cog legislation off everyone and monkey it to fit the current Govts purposes.Prefably the UK's and then make it more draconian to be sure to be sure. :rolleyes:


TO BE CONTINUED

Grizzly 45

I

, contrary to the tone of my responses, would love to see a better, more fluid system in the hands of a body that would work it to the letter of the law and not be influenced by political winds or personal agendas.

So would I,and the journey of a thousand miles starts with one step.
We have come many steps,and have to go back quite a few too.But the point is we are on this journey andwe should keep our eyes open to possible opportunities to make it easier,or quicker to get where we want to go.Not keep looking at our feet.
IOW we should be opent to thinking outside the box.

In your words "NEWSFLASH". Its Ireland. Gang killings with illegal guns - Government response = limit, and ban handguns. Impose stricter laws. Create a contradictional system with different levels of equality/application from district to district.

Indeed..Germany has had three school shootings a shooting in a court room and a female lawyer going off her trolly and shooting her ex husband and kids!!In the last five years!! One of them [Erfurt ] happened on the day the Bundestag was to discuss the firearms laws and possible upgrades...End effect...They STILL have their firearms,and it cost a Red /Green political colation a Govt.
Reason..The German shooting organisations,who squabble and bicker amongst themselves just as much as ours do,and take each other to court as well.Have learned to punch politically and in PR well above their weight class.Nor do they throw a disipline that might be attracting unwelcome PR to the wolves..[Unlike over here..The whole IPSC saga is a good example]
They have realised that any legislation banning somthing,will have ripple effects all the way down onto them as well.
Also they have the "inverse 5% rule" IE 95% of people do somthing to support their sport and 5% do the moaning.

we didnt even survive a murder that didnt even involve a legal handgun,and was long fortold by Aherne that he was looking for an excuse fair or foul to tighten up on firearms legislation at the GRA AGM of that year.As usual we were too busy arguing amongst ourselves to see the outside threat that could overwhelm us all.But whats new??We have been like that since the Vikings landed here...

I, and every other shooter out there, can see the problems and could possibly give 100 better solutions. Problem is we will not be listened to or even consulted with. And at the end of the day we have no say in how future legislation will be written. With a stroke of his pen the new minister can undo certain limitations or make matters worse.

YES WE CAN!But it requires a more than 100% input both time wise and financially wise than what we [including myself] are putting into our sports.We certainly must learn to punch above our weight class in the Irish political arena.But that requires us getting proper shooting PR and reps on a paid not voulantary basis,and already that will cause unmitigated problems.Until we stop being allowed to be divided by ouselves we will always be conqured.

So even changing the minds of the average shooter and having us all running smoothly means nothing if those that write the laws are not of the same mindset. They never have been, continue not to be, and will most likely never be persuaded to change.

I hope to be corrected on this, but probably not in my time.[

Not necessarily true either.I never thought I'd see pistols back here ,or see somthing like the FCP,while a toothless thing,it is still a first step.
And if we were running alot smoother and functioning abit more efficently and realising we are gunowners first and whatever disipline second that any legislation affects all in some way.I think any politican wanting to make a name for themselves on our backs would think twice after being chewed and spat out by an efficent PR machine and peed offf local shooters showing up at his clinic to voice their protest..In the nicest possible way of course!

Cass

Grizzly45 wrote:

TO BE CONTINUED

Not for long because we are never going to agree on this, and i simply haven't the patience to keep at this "back and forth" with you.

As i see it. There are countries (not just Germany) that have legislation that would suit us shooters better than what we currently have. No arguement there. My problem(s) is as follows:

• The fee of €2,500. Not exceedingly expensive especially for lifetime hunting license, but you will get about 10% able or willing to pay it. The rest will not.
• Like it or not An Gardai are the licensing authority in this country. Expecially in a time were jobs are being lost to setup and have a civilian authority to run it, however more effective they may be, will not happen. Its easier for the PTB to lump it onto the Gardai.
• You speak of the respect and trustworthiness of Germans (no jokes please) in relation to their firearms. While the accident and incidents involving legally held firearms in Ireland is very, very small we as a people do not have this. Thats not an insult its fact. To prove my point the chap that gives me my deer permissions every year for the last 9 years still will not give me his Folio number. In his words "i don't want them knowing".
• The changes you are suggesting, whether for the better or not, require trust, respect and reliance by the government in it's people. Look back along our history. The laws are getting tougher and stricter. Nationwide firearm "seizures" in the 70's, with progressively tougher laws since. That shows the level of confidence that is placed in Irish shooters by its government. ie - None.

It has been said before that about 6-10 people (if that) know the firearms laws in this country inside and out. The problems are deeper than simply changing the laws/SIs/Acts. While i am repeating myself its worth saying. There will be no changes in either the near or immediate future until there is a drastic change in attitudes. How many times have we been the "whipping boys" for some re-actional legislation in response to a public outcry?


What i'd like to see:

1. Civilian authority to impliment new licensing system.
2. Level fair application of laws around the country with 6 - 12 month reviews looking at the amount of refusal and items refused per district.
3. Single license to hold multiple firearms.
4. Once cleared for your first license/firearm the process for any additional firearm to be done within 14 days.
5. The license itself to have a barcode and photo ONLY.
6. All Garda stations/dealers to have scanners to read the licenses.
7. Dealers to have a "Dealer Section" of PULSE to speed up the process.
8. Dedicated safety courses recognised by An Gardai with a cap on the fees to prevent abuse.
9. A proper stalking/hunting course from recognised body/organisation that covers more than what is currently covered.
10. Refresher courses every 5 years to maintain lincese.
11. License to last as long as shooter with yearly land permissions submitted for records. So you keep the same licnese for as long as you shoot, but due to the nature of how Irish shooters get their land permissions those not leasing must submit "refresher" permissions on either a yearly or 3 year basis to run concurrently with their firearm licnese.
12. A wider variety of firearms. No more i do not like the look of that laws.
13. Restricted list on C/F pistols to be abolished.
14. Abolishing of the 1 Joule limit on Air rifle.
15. Training licenses for 12 year olds.
16. Full licenses for 14 year old (and up).

There are probably more, but i'm only after getting a couple of hours sleep as the young lad is ill, so i'll add to this as i think or feel free to add your own.

Tackleberrywho

I'd be happy if the Three year licence did not lose it's lettering after 3 months and had a Picture and Pulse Number ONLY

I'd like to see one Licence rather than having to carry 2,3,4,5,6 or what ever it may be.

but since we can't have a proper driving licence that is probably wishful thinking


Although it was a great Ice breaker in Texas showing my PINK Irish "Gay" licence as they called it

This is NOT Germany yet, until we default on our loan that is Her Flíc

Anyway, I'm off out to do a bit of crop patrol now to keep the local farmer happy.
ScareDeer Man is what I will be, at least until his Section 42 comes through.
Now where is my Wurzel Gummage outfit??:D:D

<P.S, sorry for interrupting this debate, but feck me pink, how long to write these Essays lads? >

leeroybrown

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

but since we can't have a proper driving licence that is probably wishful thinking

AFAIK cabinet are in the process of (finally) approving the transition to a credit-card style driving license. Give it another 10 years or so and shooting may catch up...

Grizzly 45

[

QUOTE=Ezridax;72247075]Not for long because we are never going to agree on this, and i simply haven't the patience to keep at this "back and forth" with you.

Maybe if you read at what time I posted my last post a 03:00 and I had just lost 2hours worth of typing due to a blackout:mad:.It would make the TO BE CONTINUED comment more understandable.I wasnt going to keep typing till 06:00.So if you consider this "back and forth" fine by me too.
actually we are agreeing on alot more points that you would belive.

As i see it. There are countries (not just Germany) that have legislation that would suit us shooters better than what we currently have. No arguement there. My problem(s) is as follows:

• The fee of €2,500. Not exceedingly expensive especially for lifetime hunting license, but you will get about 10% able or willing to pay it. The rest will not.

Well,unfortunatly what happens if it becomes law ,or somthing like this???
I dont want to pay 2.5k either..But I have just paid this anyway in DC costs to keep my handgun and rifle!So putting it in perspective,you will pay this type of money one way or the other here to keep shooting.

Like it or not An Gardai are the licensing authority in this country. Expecially in a time were jobs are being lost to setup and have a civilian authority to run it, however more effective they may be, will not happen. Its easier for the PTB to lump it onto the Gardai.

Of course,but it will come down eventually that a cull of the Irish civil servant herd will happen,and it more than likely will occur once the loaners start biting abit harder on efficency.So while it might be still a Garda function it more than likley will be eventually a civillian admin job.

You speak of the respect and trustworthiness of Germans (no jokes please) in relation to their firearms. While the accident and incidents involving legally held firearms in Ireland is very, very small we as a people do not have this. Thats not an insult its fact. To prove my point the chap that gives me my deer permissions every year for the last 9 years still will not give me his Folio number. In his words "i don't want them knowing".

No offence at all,and I agree 100% with the above.

The changes you are suggesting, whether for the better or not, require trust, respect and reliance by the government in it's people. Look back along our history. The laws are getting tougher and stricter. Nationwide firearm "seizures" in the 70's, with progressively tougher laws since. That shows the level of confidence that is placed in Irish shooters by its government. ie - None.

Very true unfortunatly...And this is a point we the people ,not just gunowners should be asking of our Govts.WHY is there a distrust of the average citizen in the ROI??The civil war is long over,the subversive threat is a minority of the pouplation,and the mainstream Republican party is now involved in the Govt!! So what are they afraid of??? Any govt that fears its citizens this much really has got some issues about somthing.

It has been said before that about 6-10 people (if that) know the firearms laws in this country inside and out. The problems are deeper than simply changing the laws/SIs/Acts. While i am repeating myself its worth saying. There will be no changes in either the near or immediate future until there is a drastic change in attitudes. How many times have we been the "whipping boys" for some re-actional legislation in response to a public outcry?

Plenty of times...And maybe we have to get abit more reactive about being the whipping boys in these situations??Thats what I'd like to see.

What i'd like to see:

1. Civilian authority to impliment new licensing system.
2. Level fair application of laws around the country with 6 - 12 month reviews looking at the amount of refusal and items refused per district.
3. Single license to hold multiple firearms.
4. Once cleared for your first license/firearm the process for any additional firearm to be done within 14 days.
5. The license itself to have a barcode and photo ONLY.
6. All Garda stations/dealers to have scanners to read the licenses.
7. Dealers to have a "Dealer Section" of PULSE to speed up the process.
8. Dedicated safety courses recognised by An Gardai with a cap on the fees to prevent abuse.
9. A proper stalking/hunting course from recognised body/organisation that covers more than what is currently covered.
10. Refresher courses every 5 years to maintain lincese.
11. License to last as long as shooter with yearly land permissions submitted for records. So you keep the same licnese for as long as you shoot, but due to the nature of how Irish shooters get their land permissions those not leasing must submit "refresher" permissions on either a yearly or 3 year basis to run concurrently with their firearm licnese.
12. A wider variety of firearms. No more i do not like the look of that laws.
13. Restricted list on C/F pistols to be abolished.
14. Abolishing of the 1 Joule limit on Air rifle.
15. Training licenses for 12 year olds.
16. Full licenses for 14 year old (and up).

There are probably more, but i'm only after getting a couple of hours sleep as the young lad is ill, so i'll add to this as i think or feel free to add your own.

Bar points 5,9 and 10..I want the same thing.
On point 5, It should be a secured chip& pin containing the photo encoded in the chip.no reason for it to be on the liscense in clear view.

9 IF this was a necessity,I'd rather it was a State exam,run along the lines of about the only fair&square exam in Ireland,the leaving cert.

10. Unnecessary and would be used simply as a money spinner.Better applied to driving liscenses.Again,due to the simple mass of road deaths contra gun deaths here.

So by and large I think we want 95% the same thing...We are just at odds as to how it should be achived in an Irish situation??So I'll leave it at thnat too.Hope you young fellah is well soon!
Grizz

Grizzly 45

leeroybrown wrote: »

AFAIK cabinet are in the process of (finally) approving the transition to a credit-card style driving license. Give it another 10 years or so and shooting may catch up...

Do the words Hames,costly,and disaster spring to mind ???:rolleyes:

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

actually we are agreeing on alot more points that you would belive.

I know. I agree with some and not with others. Not to say i would be against any change, merely some.

On point 5, It should be a secured chip& pin containing the photo encoded in the chip.no reason for it to be on the liscense in clear view.

Better again.:cool:

9. IF this was a necessity,I'd rather it was a State exam,run along the lines of about the only fair&square exam in Ireland,the leaving cert.

As said if it were compulsory then yes.

10. Unnecessary and would be used simply as a money spinner.Better applied to driving liscenses.Again,due to the simple mass of road deaths contra gun deaths here.

My thinking behind the refresher course is for a nominal fee to cover charges. Its a half day, and most importantly is to make sure the land the person used to get the license is still available to them. As alot of land used for stalking/shooting is private and not leased there would be little point in giving someone a "license for life" if the land they originally got their license on was no longer available to them.
Also for leased land. If the lease expires after 5 years or whatever time frame then a new lease in another area is gotten the person should be able to tranfer the license and/or do a refresher course to update the details.

My main reason for this "debate" is not to argue the validity of how our current system works better than any other from another country, but merely to point out the obvious fact that it will never be implimented here no matter how we long for it. As i said to the OP in my opening post i do not intend to insult or be dismissive of someone's ideas. I think its great that people are thinking of newer, better ways to improve the system, however i cannot see any new regulatios/legislation coming irrespective of the source.

.Hope you young fellah is well soon!
Grizz

He is on the mend, cheers.;)

Daegerty

Ezridax wrote: »

What i'd like to see:

1. Civilian authority to impliment new licensing system.
2. Level fair application of laws around the country with 6 - 12 month reviews looking at the amount of refusal and items refused per district.
3. Single license to hold multiple firearms.
4. Once cleared for your first license/firearm the process for any additional firearm to be done within 14 days.
5. The license itself to have a barcode and photo ONLY.
6. All Garda stations/dealers to have scanners to read the licenses.
7. Dealers to have a "Dealer Section" of PULSE to speed up the process.
8. Dedicated safety courses recognised by An Gardai with a cap on the fees to prevent abuse.
9. A proper stalking/hunting course from recognised body/organisation that covers more than what is currently covered.
10. Refresher courses every 5 years to maintain lincese.
11. License to last as long as shooter with yearly land permissions submitted for records. So you keep the same licnese for as long as you shoot, but due to the nature of how Irish shooters get their land permissions those not leasing must submit "refresher" permissions on either a yearly or 3 year basis to run concurrently with their firearm licnese.
12. A wider variety of firearms. No more i do not like the look of that laws.
13. Restricted list on C/F pistols to be abolished.
14. Abolishing of the 1 Joule limit on Air rifle.
15. Training licenses for 12 year olds.
16. Full licenses for 14 year old (and up).

There are probably more, but i'm only after getting a couple of hours sleep as the young lad is ill, so i'll add to this as i think or feel free to add your own.

A refresher course? Why? Incase you forget how to hold a gun after using it for 5 years?

Sounds like a money racket to me. the other stuff on your list is good though

Sparks

Daegerty wrote: »

A refresher course? Why? Incase you forget how to hold a gun after using it for 5 years?

From what Ezri wrote, I'd guess it's in case you get a newbie who hunts for a year, then wanders away for a few years, to ensure they still know how to do it properly when they come back to it.

Daegerty

Sparks wrote: »

From what Ezri wrote, I'd guess it's in case you get a newbie who hunts for a year, then wanders away for a few years, to ensure they still know how to do it properly when they come back to it.

Its not really fair that the rest of us should be burdened with expensive refresher courses just for a few forgetful part-timers like that though

Sparks

Daegerty wrote: »

Its not really fair that the rest of us should be burdened with expensive refresher courses just for a few forgetful part-timers like that though

(a) It's a wishlist, not a list of upcoming legislation from the Minister
(b) The alternative is that you let the department know what you're doing all the time. I think there might be some mild resistance to that idea.

Cass

Daegerty wrote: »

A refresher course? Why? Incase you forget how to hold a gun after using it for 5 years?

I'm assuming your ability to scroll up ONE POST is not working so allow me to show you.

Ezridax wrote: »

My thinking behind the refresher course is for a nominal fee to cover charges. Its a half day, and most importantly is to make sure the land the person used to get the license is still available to them. As alot of land used for stalking/shooting is private and not leased there would be little point in giving someone a "license for life" if the land they originally got their license on was no longer available to them.
Also for leased land. If the lease expires after 5 years or whatever time frame then a new lease in another area is gotten the person should be able to tranfer the license and/or do a refresher course to update the details.

Daegerty

Sparks wrote: »

(a) It's a wishlist, not a list of upcoming legislation from the Minister
(b) The alternative is that you let the department know what you're doing all the time. I think there might be some mild resistance to that idea.

why is a refresher course or letting them know what you're doing even necessary? i don't see the lack of either of those things now causing any problems

it seems like fixing thigns that 'aint broke and promoting regulatory creep.

Cass

Daegerty wrote: »

why is a refresher course or letting them know what you're doing even necessary?

Where is Grizzly45?

If you read back through all the posts you will see this is the one point we both agreed on. Its this attitude of "Why do you want to know" that will prevent us from ever achieving a newer system.

Sparks

Daegerty wrote: »

it seems like fixing thigns that 'aint broke

How many stories have you heard over the years of deer found with .22lr rounds or even #6 shot in them? Or of blatent out-and-out poaching? Because I've lost count, and I'm not even a hunter. "ain't broke" doesn't strike me as an accurate evaluation.

Grizzly 45

But adding a nother layer of new legislation or tests wont sort that out either.Finding out who is doing this,apprehending and charging and fining the Hell out of them/jailing them will.There are plenty of laws as it stands ,lets enforce properly whats there first!

Its ironic that to use the German example.... yet again:)...Poaching is virtually a nill problem in the German hunting community or on their reserves.Simply because there is an extreme high risk involved to being a poacher,if you are a "liscensed hunter" poacher.You will NEVER get any type of firearms cert again and will pay a severe fine or do jail time! END of!!
As well as that you can be assured there is either you or somone of the consortium out at any hours possibly on the shoot.Be it counting deer at the salt lick,fixing somthing,or night hunting for boar,or foxes etc during off season.

Not to mind there is still a little hangover from postwar laws,that gives the German hunter the right to use Deadly force if necessary in apprehension or self defence when dealing with poachers!!:eek::eek:.
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