Self Harm

TeddyTedson

I know it's a touchy subject. However, I'd love to get peoples view and/or experiences of it. Some people regard it as something completely different to suicide. But others see it as a stepping stone towards major depression and eventual suicidal behavior.

Shield

Looking at the very first line of the Humanities charter, this thread would probably be better suited in there.

(Just a suggestion)

TeddyTedson

psni wrote: »

Looking at the very first line of the Humanities charter, this thread would probably be better suited in there.

(Just a suggestion)

I'm not sure if I agree with that. Not trying to be a smart arse.

talkinyite

Sure there's loads of forms of self harm: smoking, eating crap food, piercings, scarification etc. Some are slow suicides and others just leave reminders & help some people get through.

Coriolanus

An ex of mine was a cutter. Found out while I was with her. She never did it while we were together, but after a messy break up she used to mention doing it. Very messed up.
Needless to say I have zero contact with her now.

Rabies

psni wrote: »

Looking at the very first line of the Humanities charter, this thread would probably be better suited in there.

(Just a suggestion)

TeddyTedson wrote: »

I'm not sure if I agree with that. Not trying to be a smart arse.

Thread can stay if people can take it seriously.
If not. Locked.

Micky Dolenz

I would think it is a lot more common then we like to think.

Wibbs

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

I would think it is a lot more common then we like to think.

I agree there. What is odd is the growth of the cutting version in the last 20 years. It was a lot rarer in the past. http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/sep2004/harm-s23.shtml Maybe the underlying issues were there but the outward expression was different.

Sunnyisland

Its a cry for help even attention and usually masking other problems in the persons life,And like taking ones own life it is kept well hidden from mainstream Ireland which is very unfortunate indeed as we are not dealing with the problem or causes.

Bit of topic but at a funeral last week 29 year old mother of one,found dead in her house not by natural causes,she seemed happy,great job,seemed she was having a great life, but we will never know now what exactly was going through her mind,The final self harm.

Coriolanus

Wibbs wrote: »

I agree there. What is odd is the growth of the cutting version in the last 20 years. It was a lot rarer in the past. http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/sep2004/harm-s23.shtml Maybe the underlying issues were there but the outward expression was different.

I'd be skeptical of that. For one thing, on a societal level the admission of this kind of thing is only just becoming less of a taboo, along with depression etc.
I'd imagine that a lot of the incease is due to an increase in reporting of the incidents as such rather than as accidents etc.

TaraFoxglove

I personally think things like bulimia can fall under the self-harm category too.

Nevore wrote: »

Needless to say I have zero contact with her now.

Why "Needless to say"?

Mrmoe

talkinyite wrote: »

Sure there's loads of forms of self harm: smoking, eating crap food, piercings, scarification etc. Some are slow suicides and others just leave reminders & help some people get through.

I think you are spot on there. You only have to look at the level of alcohol abuse in this country and around the world. An awful lot of people get scuttered on a weekend to make themselves any problems that they have.

Poor Uncle Tom

Wibbs wrote: »

It was a lot rarer in the past.

I wouldn't necessarily agree here. I'd say it was far less publicised in the past.

I think we are very very slowly coming out of the dark ages in regard to these issues right now. It would have been almost unheard of to have an open discussion on self harm 20 or 30 years ago.

syklops

Nevore wrote: »

Needless to say I have zero contact with her now.

How very supportive of you.

TaraFoxglove

syklops wrote: »

How very supportive of you.

My thoughts exactly!

irishjay

if you want to talk about this topic.... contact me ....ive a family member and a friend that had this issue and the have zero contact comment two above is so not the answer for this topic.

Of course you should be supportive but it sounded from N's post that he was talking about manipulation rather than seeking help

Sunnyisland

irish jay wrote: »

if you want to talk about this topic.... contact me ....ive a family member and a friend that had this issue and the have zero contact comment two above is so not the answer for this topic.

Without going into your personal details would it not be better to post info here so a wider audience can get some knowledge about it,its been hidden for to long.

Wibbs

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

I wouldn't necessarily agree here. I'd say it was far less publicised in the past.

I think we are very very slowly coming out of the dark ages in regard to these issues right now. It would have been almost unheard of to have an open discussion on self harm 20 or 30 years ago.

That's the usual take, "oh it was less reported" and I'd agree as far as some of the stats go, but overall? I'd put money if you asked a shrink who was practicing for the last 30 years they'll tell you there has been a notable increase in the incidence of cutting type self harm. Anorexia though clearly existing beforehand has increased in the same time period in the west. http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/diseases/facts/eatingdisorders.htm and http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/1162151.stm

I'd suggest two separate issues here. The rate of emotional distress itself and how the external culture may manifest this distress in someone. Emotional distress levels may remain constant(though I have reservations that they do), but how that comes out changes over time.

I'm always puzzled as to why the assumption in mental illnesses is that there's not been an increase, just better reporting. There's something to that, but I personally doubt it's the whole story. Not by a long shot.

OK I think we can all agree there has been an increase in obesity in the west with a concomitant rise in associated illnesses like type 2 diabetes? These are so called lifestyle conditions, driven by the culture. I'd suggest that there is a class of mental illness that's also lifestyle/culture driven. Yes in any population you will have some with it, but a change even a subtle one can trigger more people to present with it. Like obesity. I'd put cutting into that category.

TaraFoxglove

bluewolf wrote: »

Of course you should be supportive but it sounded from N's post that he was talking about manipulation rather than seeking help

Not necessarily. If it was a messy break-up, she might have had a prior history of cutting and may have genuinely started self-harming again after the turmoil of the break-up. I wouldn't assume from the post as it is worded now that she was being manipulative.

Micky Dolenz

Let's not judge.

Wibbs

syklops wrote: »

How very supportive of you.

Dealing with someone with a mental illness can be very trying. In my opinion and sadly experience too, probably one of the hardest things to deal with on a daily basis. It can really pick away at the person on the receiving end. I'd not be too quick to judge someone for not wanting to be around it. Especially after a breakup. Like I said I've done it. More than once. Was I some hero to do so? No. In retrospect would I do it again? No way.

TaraFoxglove

Wibbs wrote: »

Dealing with someone with a mental illness can be very trying. In my opinion and sadly experience too, probably one of the hardest things to deal with on a daily basis. It can really pick away at the person on the receiving end. I'd not be too quick to judge someone for not wanting to be around it. Especially after a breakup. Like I said I've done it. More than once. Was I some hero to do so? No. In retrospect would I do it again? No way.

I'm aware of how hard it is, I've been there - the comment still seemed a bit dismissive and throwaway to me.

Wibbs wrote: »

I'm always puzzled as to why the assumption in mental illnesses is that there's not been an increase, just better reporting. There's something to that, but I personally doubt it's the whole story. Not by a long shot.

Why would it puzzle you? There was and still is to a lesser extent a huge stigma attached to mental illness. My granny still calls depression "nerves". Back in the day, people were institutionalised. That happens a lot less now so it's more visible.

Kess73

Cutting is being done by scarily high numbers of young girls in Ireland and in the UK. I know the US figures are high as well.


It can be as high as 15% of girls by the age of 16 have self harmed by cutting, and quite often they find a friend that does the same.

Communication without judgement and pressure seems to be the key to helping people, and the knowledge that communciation is available. An obvious thing some might say, but it is something that family and friends often overlook when approaching the subject with a person harming themselves.

Thankfully in the majority of cases it is not the first step to suicide that many people claim it is, but it is a frightening time for family/friends and a damn lonely/scary time for the person doing the cutting, as the cutting becomes the way to tune out emotional pain and/or stress.

Wibbs

TaraFoxglove wrote: »

Why would it puzzle you? There was and still is to a lesser extent a huge stigma attached to mental illness. My granny still calls depression "nerves". Back in the day, people were institutionalised. That happens a lot less now so it's more visible.

Hence I said "There's something to that, but I personally doubt it's the whole story". I personally believe that as well as an increase in reporting there has been an overall increase in some mental illnesses or how they present when compared to the past. I am puzzled as to why people are so sure that it's always been at this level. Obesity hasn't so why not some mental illnesses? There is a cultural component to both IMHO.

Indeed lets take cutting. Some may see this thread and suggest that the word [triggers] is added to the thread title, lest it trigger an attack in someone suffering from self harm of a cutting nature. That trigger itself wouldn't have even existed 20 years ago.

TaraFoxglove

Wibbs wrote: »

I am puzzled as to why people are so sure that it's always been at this level. Obesity hasn't so why not some mental illnesses? There is a cultural component to both IMHO.

I don't think people are "so sure". They're just pointing out that there's probably no way to say the level wasn't as high 50 years ago. We'll never know but we DO know that mental illness was massively stigmatised so we can theorise that these things might have been much more common than reported.

Daegerty

Self harm is a bit 2004 isn't it?

Naikon

"Self Harm" is a bit of a dubious term. Psychiatrists will label everything and anything these days if the DSM diagnostic criteria are anything to go by. Bit of a joke. Ever stop to think excessive Paranoia may just be a genetic trait, and not a real illness? Standard Paranoia is not illness:mad: Back on topic, self harm is very common I would imagine. Cutting yourself could just be an attention thing. Though I don't doubt the "rush" is a big factor.

Micky Dolenz

Daegerty wrote: »

Self harm is a bit 2004 isn't it?

Don't post in this thread again.

Azureus

Self harm is a strange one, because as people have said, alcohol abuse to mask problems etc can be seen as self harm aswell. In this context, cutting oneself can be for so many reasons its hard to pin down. I dont think its a cry for help in all cases, or that it would lead to suicide in most cases. Its often just a form of release, or a compulsion from stress. It may be easier to talk about in Ireland now moreso than twenty years ago, but I still think there a massive stigma attached. Automatically its 'stay away, what an emo!' or 'attention seeker!' labels attached. Not helpful.

TaraFoxglove

Naikon wrote: »

"Self Harm" is a bit of a dubious term. Psychiatrists will label everything and anything these days if the DSM diagnostic criteria are anything to go by. Bit of a joke. Ever stop to think excessive Paranoia may just be a genetic trait, and not a real illness? Standard Paranoia is not illness:mad: Back on topic, self harm is very common I would imagine. Cutting yourself could just be an attention thing.

What illnesses do you think are bogus?

And genetic traits can cause various illnesses. Why would you think mental illness is any different?

Naikon

TaraFoxglove wrote: »

What illnesses do you think are bogus?

And genetic traits can cause various illnesses. Why would you think mental illness is any different?

I could probably fake ADHD simply by appearing to be "sick". I cannot fake a real disease like cancer though. Any "Mental Disorder" lacking a clear pathology does not exist as far as I am concerned.

Micky Dolenz

Naikon wrote: »

I could probably fake ADHD. I cannot fake a real disease like cancer though. Any "Mental Disorder" lacking a hard diagnosis does not exist as far as I am concerned.

you really need to go and educate yourself. Would you say something like that in public?

TaraFoxglove

Naikon wrote: »

I could probably fake ADHD simply by appearing to be "sick". I cannot fake a real disease like cancer though. Any "Mental Disorder" lacking a clear pathology does not exist as far as I am concerned.

ADHD has probably been over-diagnosed but I have no doubt it exists.

Clear pathology? That's all fine and well, but understanding the human brain is still in its embryonic stages so a clear pathology is a long way off. There's still not a 100% understanding of what causes clinical depression, for example. Certain neurotransmitters have been implicated but there's not much concrete evidence out there for that. Do you think clinical depression doesn't exist?

g'em

Calling self-harm "attention seeking" is as inaccurate as saying that people with depression need to just cop on and get on with life. The majority of people who self harm will do everything in their power to hide what they're doing, not display it to the world for all to see and be judged on it.

TaraFoxglove

g'em wrote: »

Calling self-harm "attention seeking" is as inaccurate as saying that people with depression need to just cop on and get on with life. The majority of people who self harm will do everything in their power to hide what they're doing, not display it to the world for all to see and be judged on it.

+10000000

Naikon

g'em wrote: »

Calling self-harm "attention seeking" is as inaccurate as saying that people with depression need to just cop on and get on with life. The majority of people who self harm will do everything in their power to hide what they're doing, not display it to the world for all to see and be judged on it.

Self harm is mostly a precursor to suicide. It "could" be for attention seeking purposes in a minority of cases.

Naikon

TaraFoxglove wrote: »

ADHD has probably been over-diagnosed but I have no doubt it exists.

Clear pathology? That's all fine and well, but understanding the human brain is still in its embryonic stages so a clear pathology is a long way off. There's still not a 100% understanding of what causes clinical depression, for example. Certain neurotransmitters have been implicated but there's not much concrete evidence out there for that. Do you think clinical depression doesn't exist?

Where are the tests? Simply observing someone and claiming they have a "disorder" based on subjective observation is not enough in my mind. Your second argument is akin to a religious person stating god exists simply because we don't understand how or why the universe came about. We can observe "Gods hand" simply by looking at nature or whatever. Jumping the gun by inventing illnesses seems very...unscientific to me. For instance, chemical imbalance theory is undisputed fiction. Social labels are not diseases, no matter how much your Psychology Lecturer tells you otherwise...

g'em

Naikon wrote: »

Self harm is mostly a precursor to suicide. It "could" be for attention seeking purposes in a minority of cases.

I'd argue quite the opposite. Self-harm is about coping, not ending your life. It's a physical manifestation of emotional pain and using that pain to distract from or avoid emotional trauma, a kind of pain transference. And sure, in a *minority* of cases it *might* be attention seeking but my point is that the majority aren't, and it the majority who suffer under the stereotypes of misleading public perception.

Naikon

g'em wrote: »

I'd argue quite the opposite. Self-harm is about coping, not ending your life. It's a physical manifestation of emotional pain and using that pain to distract from or avoid emotional trauma, a kind of pain transference. And sure, in a *minority* of cases it *might* be attention seeking but my point is that the majority aren't, and it the majority who suffer under the stereotypes of misleading public perception.

Fair enough. I am wrong on this count. My own very limited experiences of people self harming do not represent the majority. It's a very broad label.

TaraFoxglove

Naikon wrote: »

Where are the tests? Simply observing someone and claiming they have a "disorder" based on subjective observation is not enough in my mind. Your second argument is akin to a religious person stating god exists simply because we don't understand how or why the universe came about. We can observe "Gods hand" simply by looking at nature or whatever. Jumping the gun by inventing illnesses seems very...unscientific to me. For instance, chemical imbalance theory is undisputed fiction. Social labels are not diseases, no matter how much your Psychology Lecturer tells you otherwise...

All that is fine... but people do experience mental anguish, sometimes outside their control, and it simply can't be ignored just because it can't be shown what is causing it.

Naikon

TaraFoxglove wrote: »

All that is fine... but people do experience mental anguish, sometimes outside their control, and it simply can't be ignored just because it can't be shown what is causing it.

Never said people do not experience "mental anguish". That does not mean it's ethical to lump certain "mental anguish" in with real diseases. Fraud in my book.

TaraFoxglove

Naikon wrote: »

Never said people do not experience "mental anguish". That does not mean it's ethical to lump certain "mental anguish" in with real diseases. Fraud in my book.

But that mental anguish might be a future quantifiable illness, it's just a shame that because there is no clear pathology NOW that people just have to get on with things.

Naikon

TaraFoxglove wrote: »

But that mental anguish might be a future quantifiable illness, it's just a shame that because there is no clear pathology NOW that people just have to get on with things.

Exactly. That is the point I am trying to make. Listing ADHD as a "disorder" should only be done when there is sufficient evidence to do so. That is not the case today, however. Money makes the world go round. Very religious to state something as is, without any hard evidence. Not science imo.

Wibbs

TaraFoxglove wrote: »

I don't think people are "so sure". They're just pointing out that there's probably no way to say the level wasn't as high 50 years ago. We'll never know but we DO know that mental illness was massively stigmatised so we can theorise that these things might have been much more common than reported.

Well we could look at the figures for those presenting and in the case of cutting self harm we could trawl the autopsy records to see if there is a percentage with scars that could be linked to the practice. I am certainly not suggesting that the stigma doesn't have a big effect, but there does seem to be an overall increase in the condition.

TaraFoxglove wrote: »

And genetic traits can cause various illnesses. Why would you think mental illness is any different?

I would think that genetics increase the tendency in a population, but the environment triggers it. Again like obesity and type 2 diabetes. There's not really a "fat bastard" gene as such, but clearly some people are more prone to putting on weight. In a different environment they wouldn't or have significantly less weight. I would say similar of various mental illnesses*. Another example; alcoholism. There is talk about that being genetic yet the rates of alcoholism and alcohol abuse have notably risen in Ireland in the last 20 years. Other cultures have far less problem with it and others may have more. Genetically we're the same pretty much. Humans being very inbred as a species. Genetic component yet rise/drop in frequency = environment. I am simply suggesting that some mental conditions follow the same trend and that cutting is one of them.

I am not suggesting that this demeans those who suffer, but it may help target potential sufferers and treatments if we look at that. Rather than treat mental illness as a sacred cow and be defensive about it. And that is more and more the case. Thank god the stigma has been eroded and it needs more erosion but IMHO the pendulum has overswung the other way.





*With the exceptions of schizophrenia and bipolar.

metrovelvet

^ Nearly impossible to tell. Abuse patterns and environment growing up can change your biology, so it may appear genetic because its biological, but it was behavior which changed your biology. I'm not sure I buy the whole inheriting it throough the genes, smacks of phrenology.

Your example of alcoholism is interesting. Genetically different races have different responses to it. The Native Americans cant process it and get hooked very quickly. But this is a tricky example because alcoholism can be a symptom of a mental illness, depression, self hatred, or can be a disease in itself.

Saila

a girl I went to secondary school with cut herself, and the weird thing was she showed others and bragged about it nearly... when most people who cut hide them dont they :confused
and sometimes she would dip her fingers in boiling water too

Wibbs

Saila wrote: »

a girl I went to secondary school with cut herself, and the weird thing was she showed others and bragged about it nearly... when most people who cut hide them dont they :confused

I was going to mention this. For all the talk of secrecy I've had more self harmers tell me they cut themselves than didn't. That's a sample rate if one though. Mise.

wild_cat

Saila wrote: »

a girl I went to secondary school with cut herself, and the weird thing was she showed others and bragged about it nearly... when most people who cut hide them dont they :confused
and sometimes she would dip her fingers in boiling water too

Living the stereotype there...



Isn't there a general rule of thumb that even if it is a biological trait that once it stops you from normal functioning its seen as an illness.

flyaway.

I was a self harmer from the age of 12 to about 16. It started off lightly but did turn into serious cutting as the years went on. It was for various reasons really (mostly home related)- it was just really addictive and was always the first thing my mind went to when something went wrong.

I decided it was getting too far though as my mind was thinking of doing more serious things (taking my own life) and finally started seeing a therapist and a psychiatrist when I was 16. I haven't self harmed in over two years now.

Nobody in my life ever noticed it and I was always really careful to hide it. I REALLY hate when people say ''they're doing it for attention'' or whatever because most try extremely hard to keep it a secret. I was really ashamed and was convinced people would be angry at me. Thankfully I got to tell my therapists though and of course they were trained to deal with it.

I told one guy when I was 16 and have regretted it ever since. All he did was make fun of me and used it as blackmail for ages. It didn't work though because I realized I didn't really care who he told because it was over me anyway and he would be the one telling someone's intimate secrets.

So yeah... that's my story. I am very very glad to be over that part of my life.

KnifeWRENCH

I've spoken about this on another thread, but may aswell say it here.

I've never self harmed. Thought about it many many times but never did it. And I view that as a bad thing; basically, I never did it because I'm too cowardly to deal with physical pain. I'm fully aware of how serious self-harm is and that it's not healthy to do it......yet a little voice in my head berates me for being too "chicken" to do it. It's twisted logic and very healthy. But then again, I'm not exactly a "healthy" person.

Stuff like getting drunk by myself and smoking a lot (which only ever happens when I'm drunk) is about the closest to self harm I've gotten. That happened a lot last year, during a very bleak period when I felt really down.